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The Holy Rage

Started by The Wizard Joseph, March 17, 2019, 01:10:59 AM

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Con-troll

Quote from: nullified on March 29, 2019, 09:55:54 PM
The above is in need of a response that, I must admit, I have no business writing. I don't have sufficient rage or intelligence.

Fortunately, it was already written for me.

"You're right: we should give up responsibility for making any difficult moral judgments, and surrender to the dictates of natural selection. Evolution cares so much about our happiness that no one who's obeyed an inherited urge has ever suffered a moment's regret for it. History is full of joyful case studies of people who followed their natural instincts at every opportunity--fucking whoever they could, stealing whatever they could, destroying anything that stood in their way--and the verdict is unanimous: any behavior that ever helped someone disseminate their genes is a recipe for unalloyed contentment, both for the practitioners, and for everyone around them."

—Greg Egan, Schild's Ladder

I'm not gonna start arguing with authors not present.

I'm just gonna reformulate my point:

"It's bad for the overall welfare of the planet to speak of locking up even metaphorical animals, because we have actual fucking death camps for them in every fucking country and nobody gives a shit."
I get trauma from stuff most don't even notice.

chaotic neutral observer

Desine fata deum flecti sperare precando.

altered

Quote from: Con-troll on March 30, 2019, 03:47:20 PM
Quote from: nullified on March 29, 2019, 09:55:54 PM
The above is in need of a response that, I must admit, I have no business writing. I don't have sufficient rage or intelligence.

Fortunately, it was already written for me.

"You're right: we should give up responsibility for making any difficult moral judgments, and surrender to the dictates of natural selection. Evolution cares so much about our happiness that no one who's obeyed an inherited urge has ever suffered a moment's regret for it. History is full of joyful case studies of people who followed their natural instincts at every opportunity--fucking whoever they could, stealing whatever they could, destroying anything that stood in their way--and the verdict is unanimous: any behavior that ever helped someone disseminate their genes is a recipe for unalloyed contentment, both for the practitioners, and for everyone around them."

—Greg Egan, Schild's Ladder

I'm not gonna start arguing with authors not present.

I'm just gonna reformulate my point:

"It's bad for the overall welfare of the planet to speak of locking up even metaphorical animals, because we have actual fucking death camps for them in every fucking country and nobody gives a shit."

That point is not worth giving an actual, well thought out response, though. You are quite literally hand-wringing over choice of metaphor.

This is your wake up call, return to earth! This is the forum where we riff on cannibalism and get lols in response!

You're either prioritizing animal suffering over human suffering (in which case FUCK YOU, FWIW, you've lost all respect by diving off the Vegan Deep End — and no, this isn't human chauvinism, I'll gladly go into the debate with someone who is attached to reality to prove it) or just trying to "win" the discussion on the grounds of /a metaphorical title referring to what a human actually literally is as opposed to what we think of ourselves as/ is UNSAVORY.

WAKE UP, DUDE. Reframe yourself. We aren't talking about a goddamn PR campaign. This is a discussion on a forum about specific philosophical concepts, necessarily using flashy, metaphorical language because legit words for these things do not exist.

But more importantly?

You didn't put your foot down on talking about shit like, say "carving away the unskillful parts of us" despite the possibility someone reading might have a history of self-harm, you drew the line at /an animal label being applied to something about an actual literal animal that I am painting in a negative light/. This is like saying a transgender Nazi shouldn't be called transgender because it makes everyone else who is trans look like Nazis.*

I utterly and completely reject this sort of stupidity in the first place, it's the sort of shit that makes edgy high schoolers say they aren't human because they don't want to be associated with stupid humans.

But to prioritize that over something that is, yes, stupid but at least based in real, legitimate compassion and an actual fucking risk? Wake up!
"I am that worst of all type of criminal...I cannot bring myself to do what you tell me, because you told me."

There's over 100 of us in this meat-suit. You'd think it runs like a ship, but it's more like a hundred and ten angry ghosts having an old-school QuakeWorld tournament, three people desperately trying to make sure the gamers don't go hungry or soil themselves, and the Facilities manager weeping in the corner as the garbage piles high.

The Wizard Joseph

You can't get out backward.  You have to go forward to go back.. better press on! - Willie Wonka, PBUH

Life can be seen as a game with no reset button, no extra lives, and if the power goes out there is no restarting.  If that's all you see life as you are not long for this world, and never will get it.

"Ayn Rand never swung a hammer in her life and had serious dominance issues" - The Fountainhead

"World domination is such an ugly phrase. I prefer to call it world optimisation."
- Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality :lulz:

"You program the controller to do the thing, only it doesn't do the thing.  It does something else entirely, or nothing at all.  It's like voting."
- Billy, Aug 21st, 2019

"It's not even chaos anymore. It's BANAL."
- Doktor Hamish Howl

Con-troll

I seems like we are having a conversation  :lulz:

It's not humans or animals, as many seem to think. As is has been stated in this very thread, human is a type of animal, hence pain inflicted to one tends to propagate to other. Call it karma or whatever. Thing is, animal death camps are just a step away from people death camps. Especially when a portion of people seem to categorize part of population as animals. "Apes".

Animal death camps produces sadistic individuals, butchers, part of workforce who murder for money. Yes there is also some doing that to people, but the difference is the sheer scale.  Animal death camps produce apathy and indifference about mass killings. Yes, they are "only animals". And suddenly when your state wants to do genocide, all the rationalizations are conviniently in place.

I am worried about humans. Because humans have this way of thinking, where every animalistic aspect of them is kinda outdated and if they could just shed them off they'd become some fucking "übermensch" or shit like that. People are animals who are constantly blamed for being too animal, and that hurts everyone.

Trying to get back to topic now. Why can't you feed the anger? Is doing angry things feeding the anger? Is there any reason to be angry? Why can't you trick the monkey to think it has gotten its revenge by beating up a mattress?
I get trauma from stuff most don't even notice.

altered

The entire point both Joseph and I have been repeatedly making is that the animal part of being human is still part of being human. People without it aren't better, they're broken. This doesn't make it any less dangerous.

If you take the uranium out of a nuclear reactor, it stops working. That doesn't mean you just leave it lying around, or pile it up in great big mounds, because that is how you give a great many people cancer. The only good place for that uranium is in the (heavily sealed you better hope by god) reactor. We don't even know what to do with it anymore once the reactor's done with it.

Does this metaphor make it more clear what the point is?
"I am that worst of all type of criminal...I cannot bring myself to do what you tell me, because you told me."

There's over 100 of us in this meat-suit. You'd think it runs like a ship, but it's more like a hundred and ten angry ghosts having an old-school QuakeWorld tournament, three people desperately trying to make sure the gamers don't go hungry or soil themselves, and the Facilities manager weeping in the corner as the garbage piles high.

Fujikoma

My anger is dead, ooch. But yeah there's that animal stuff, still, I need sleep.

Con-troll

Quote from: nullified on March 31, 2019, 12:24:30 AM
The entire point both Joseph and I have been repeatedly making is that the animal part of being human is still part of being human. People without it aren't better, they're broken. This doesn't make it any less dangerous.

If you take the uranium out of a nuclear reactor, it stops working. That doesn't mean you just leave it lying around, or pile it up in great big mounds, because that is how you give a great many people cancer. The only good place for that uranium is in the (heavily sealed you better hope by god) reactor. We don't even know what to do with it anymore once the reactor's done with it.

Does this metaphor make it more clear what the point is?

That's like saying you should contain your sadness, so it won't affect other people. That leads to depression.

If more people were visibly angry, people would have to work out the cause. And no, I am not talking about the artificial political anger. That isn't coming from inside.
I get trauma from stuff most don't even notice.

Doktor Howl

Quote from: Con-troll on March 31, 2019, 12:18:46 AM
I seems like we are having a conversation  :lulz:

It's not humans or animals, as many seem to think. As is has been stated in this very thread, human is a type of animal, hence pain inflicted to one tends to propagate to other. Call it karma or whatever. Thing is, animal death camps are just a step away from people death camps. Especially when a portion of people seem to categorize part of population as animals. "Apes".

Animal death camps produces sadistic individuals, butchers, part of workforce who murder for money. Yes there is also some doing that to people, but the difference is the sheer scale.  Animal death camps produce apathy and indifference about mass killings. Yes, they are "only animals". And suddenly when your state wants to do genocide, all the rationalizations are conviniently in place.

I am worried about humans. Because humans have this way of thinking, where every animalistic aspect of them is kinda outdated and if they could just shed them off they'd become some fucking "übermensch" or shit like that. People are animals who are constantly blamed for being too animal, and that hurts everyone.

Trying to get back to topic now. Why can't you feed the anger? Is doing angry things feeding the anger? Is there any reason to be angry? Why can't you trick the monkey to think it has gotten its revenge by beating up a mattress?

Is this the part where I feel bad about this ham sammich I'm eating?

Because that's not going to happen.  Never in this lifetime.
Molon Lube

Con-troll

You feel bad because you didn't get to kill the ham yourself.
I get trauma from stuff most don't even notice.

Doktor Howl

Quote from: Con-troll on March 31, 2019, 03:40:45 AM
You feel bad because you didn't get to kill the ham yourself.

As long as the pig finds its way onto some sourdough bread, I'm not actually picky.
Molon Lube

The Johnny

Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on March 17, 2019, 01:10:59 AM
OP

I mean, its not a complete equivalence by any means, but in psychoanalysis theres supposedly two primordial drives: life drive and death drive (aka, Eros and Thanatos)... i wish i had the energy and motivation to make a comparison to the Sacred Chao but im 100% certain it can be done... one tendency constructs and binds, while the other pulls apart and desintegrates, and just as these forces or tendencies exist in the universe they exist within us.

Now, of all things youre referring to, this Holy Rage seems a mixture of expression of both, it is the death drive used and motivated for the preservation of ones own life... would that be whats Holy about it, that the Rage is justified for its practical and legitimate use?

And while doing baseball practice against a mattress sure can count as exersice and an adrenaline high or even count as a particular type of cathartic therapy, as an outlet for this death drive that we all have within us... i wouldnt consider thats how you find or get to your "True Self"

(This response is exclusive to the OP, now ill start to read the actual thread)
<<My image in some places, is of a monster of some kind who wants to pull a string and manipulate people. Nothing could be further from the truth. People are manipulated; I just want them to be manipulated more effectively.>>

-B.F. Skinner

The Johnny


And well, after reading the whole thread:

It appears we had some heavy misunderstandings between you all in the conversation and interpretation of the OP  :lulz:

Theres this thing y'all discussed that was interesting, all these different postures and takes on what should be done with out inner "animal", "ape" or whatever everyone chose to call it... and its basically an issue that has been discussed ad nauseum but never quite resolved in neither theology nor in the field of mental health.

Within my frame of reference and specialization, its the drama between the "Id" and the "Ego"... Christianity, rationalism and also psychiatry have over centuries argued for the repression and suppression of the Id, either on grounds that its the manifestation of Satan and what is immoral, or that its just irrational lunacy that is useless and disruptive or merely just because its economically unproductive.

Even Freud, like all the burgouise rationalist capitalists, spoke of the Ego as the jockey that should dominate and lead the Id which is his horse - this framed within a discourse on how Man should control and exploit Nature, even that part of "nature" which is within us.

The problem is that, this exploitation and domination of the Id only leads to suffering and unhappiness... CNO argued that this hypothetical internal beast doesnt get enraged from lack of play, but i would not tend to agree with him... just as we have a drive for pleasure, we have a drive for destruction (or at least of some type of control or expression of our power)... thats a universal given for humans, but the possible difference is how we express or satisfy these drives... will your frustration lead you to abuse some vulnerable minority? or will it be the fuel to better yourself? or will you be conscious enough to understand what frustrated you and direct your energy towards it? 

<<My image in some places, is of a monster of some kind who wants to pull a string and manipulate people. Nothing could be further from the truth. People are manipulated; I just want them to be manipulated more effectively.>>

-B.F. Skinner

Con-troll

Johnny sees the Elephant!

Lets maul him to pulp with tire irons!
I get trauma from stuff most don't even notice.

Cramulus

Quote from: Con-troll on March 31, 2019, 12:18:46 AM
Trying to get back to topic now. Why can't you feed the anger? Is doing angry things feeding the anger? Is there any reason to be angry? Why can't you trick the monkey to think it has gotten its revenge by beating up a mattress?

You gotta be careful with that, because the angry monkey likes being angry
https://www.nytimes.com/1983/03/08/science/venting-anger-may-do-more-harm-than-good.html


Quote from: The Johnny on March 31, 2019, 08:47:06 AM
Within my frame of reference and specialization, its the drama between the "Id" and the "Ego"... Christianity, rationalism and also psychiatry have over centuries argued for the repression and suppression of the Id, either on grounds that its the manifestation of Satan and what is immoral, or that its just irrational lunacy that is useless and disruptive or merely just because its economically unproductive.

Even Freud, like all the burgouise rationalist capitalists, spoke of the Ego as the jockey that should dominate and lead the Id which is his horse - this framed within a discourse on how Man should control and exploit Nature, even that part of "nature" which is within us.

The problem is that, this exploitation and domination of the Id only leads to suffering and unhappiness...

I dunno about that, I think that having reigns on my id has kept me out of a lot of shit. In my teen years, I was helpless to stop that beast, and it did a lot of damage to me and the people around me.

I would say that the more I mastered my "id" impulses, the less I've allowed it to hijack my control panel, the more my happiness has been increased and my suffering decreased.

There is definitely a problem if you are denying the id everything it wants, but there is a long range between resisting impulses and being a stick-up-the-ass puritan. I do let my id out to play, but ideally, that's a choice I consciously make.



On a whim, I gave up something for lent this year. Without getting into details--it's been an ongoing test of self control. The first few days really made me question my own capacity to change a pleasurable habit. As we pull into the home stretch, I feel like I have exercised something, built up a kind of muscle... and that feels pretty damn good too.