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Don't get me wrong, I greatly appreciate the fact that you're at least putting effort into sincerely arguing your points. It's an argument I've enjoyed having. It's just that your points are wrong and your reasons for thinking they're right are stupid.

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The Holy Rage

Started by The Wizard Joseph, March 17, 2019, 01:10:59 AM

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chaotic neutral observer

Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on March 17, 2019, 06:44:25 PM
I merely acknowledge that this part of us exists and embrace it.
How do you personally embrace it?  Recognizing your capacity for anger and violence is one thing.  But when have you experienced Holy Rage, and what did you do with it?  Other than beating up an innocent mattress, I mean.
Desine fata deum flecti sperare precando.

Con-troll

I'm not sure what the mass-shooters do with their inner beasts, but they sure as hell didn't love them, for they wouldn't voluntarily put them in a potentially lethal survival situation otherwise. No ape ever died for their nation, that shit is humane.
I get trauma from stuff most don't even notice.

The Wizard Joseph

Quote from: chaotic neutral observer on March 17, 2019, 07:11:40 PM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on March 17, 2019, 06:44:25 PM
I merely acknowledge that this part of us exists and embrace it.
How do you personally embrace it?  Recognizing your capacity for anger and violence is one thing.  But when have you experienced Holy Rage, and what did you do with it?  Other than beating up an innocent mattress, I mean.

Normally I would remain silent on this but your questions deserve some form of answer.

Rather than getting into my intensely personal business on a public forum, or risking sounding like a shitlord internet tough guy, I will attempt to once again illustrate what I'm talking about by describing the events portrayed in the article that sparked this little rant in the first place.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/gunman-advanced-zealand-mosque-1-man-ran-him-092301154.html

Aziz responded to these deadly circumstances by picking up the first solid object that he could find, a credit card reader in this case, and running outside screaming like a madman in the face of a well-armed psychopath. This is not what you would call a nice, calm, rational response. It was the actions of a Mad primate intent on stopping the Killer by any means necessary. Aziz was in the grip of The Holy Rage from the moment that he first began to act.

He throws his only weapon at the gunman in an attempt to distract him, and then weaves among cars to prevent himself from being shot. He picks up an empty gun, and charges the well-armed Psychopath with it. The shooter falls back, the fear that underlies his cowardly character finally taking over. But Aziz continues to charge and throws his only weapon at the Gunman's car. And then proceeds to chase that car down the block howling like a madman the whole way I imagine.

Aziz said he didn't feel fear or much of anything really. It was like he was on "autopilot". Some people are gifted with the ability without prior training or experience. His Primal self merely emerged and acted immediately. In some sense the hand of God was on him.

I consider this part of our nature to be a gift from millions of years of natural selection, a process that knows neither Mercy nor Grace. When I say to embrace it I mean exactly that. Value it as something worth understanding, experiencing, and ultimately mastering. Do not fear it. Do not deny it. Do not make of it some Demon. Learn to love it and it will serve you Faithfully.
You can't get out backward.  You have to go forward to go back.. better press on! - Willie Wonka, PBUH

Life can be seen as a game with no reset button, no extra lives, and if the power goes out there is no restarting.  If that's all you see life as you are not long for this world, and never will get it.

"Ayn Rand never swung a hammer in her life and had serious dominance issues" - The Fountainhead

"World domination is such an ugly phrase. I prefer to call it world optimisation."
- Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality :lulz:

"You program the controller to do the thing, only it doesn't do the thing.  It does something else entirely, or nothing at all.  It's like voting."
- Billy, Aug 21st, 2019

"It's not even chaos anymore. It's BANAL."
- Doktor Hamish Howl

The Wizard Joseph

Quote from: Con-troll on March 17, 2019, 07:21:13 PM
I'm not sure what the mass-shooters do with their inner beasts, but they sure as hell didn't love them, for they wouldn't voluntarily put them in a potentially lethal survival situation otherwise. No ape ever died for their nation, that shit is humane.

I begin to think that you Get It Con-troll.

A mass shooter, the suicide bomber, the garden-variety racist, all these operate out of a fundamental fear. They are fundamentally cowards. The Holy Rage does not know fear. It may get you killed but that does not matter in that moment. It is action without concern for your chances.
You can't get out backward.  You have to go forward to go back.. better press on! - Willie Wonka, PBUH

Life can be seen as a game with no reset button, no extra lives, and if the power goes out there is no restarting.  If that's all you see life as you are not long for this world, and never will get it.

"Ayn Rand never swung a hammer in her life and had serious dominance issues" - The Fountainhead

"World domination is such an ugly phrase. I prefer to call it world optimisation."
- Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality :lulz:

"You program the controller to do the thing, only it doesn't do the thing.  It does something else entirely, or nothing at all.  It's like voting."
- Billy, Aug 21st, 2019

"It's not even chaos anymore. It's BANAL."
- Doktor Hamish Howl

altered

Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on March 17, 2019, 08:51:59 PM
Quote from: Con-troll on March 17, 2019, 07:21:13 PM
I'm not sure what the mass-shooters do with their inner beasts, but they sure as hell didn't love them, for they wouldn't voluntarily put them in a potentially lethal survival situation otherwise. No ape ever died for their nation, that shit is humane.

I begin to think that you Get It Con-troll.

A mass shooter, the suicide bomber, the garden-variety racist, all these operate out of a fundamental fear. They are fundamentally cowards. The Holy Rage does not know fear. It may get you killed but that does not matter in that moment. It is action without concern for your chances.

There is no difference between the two. If you release the Internal Ape from its cage when there is no reason, what will happen? All it knows is to hit and scream. It will find something to hit and scream at. The higher, "human" brain will find a way to rationalize it, as it always does. The Ape doesn't want to return to the cage. The higher brain will find a reason for it to stay out, given time or opportunity.

The fear is only the rationalization.

If you let your Ape run rampant, it becomes a menace. It needs to be kept safely put the fuck away, and called upon only when there is no other proximal, immediate option.

It's easy to think that we are somehow innately better than the fash, the terrorist, the murderer of passion — but the only difference is the choices we made. All of us carry the capacity for terrible cruelty, and that cruelty lives in both halves of us: the knuckle walking and the upright equally carry that potential.

The human side has the capacity for self reflection. It can question itself. With difficulty, it can even decide it is wrong and bad and must stop.

The Ape lacks brakes.

It is an avalanche, a derailed train traveling downhill, a breaking dam. The Ape lets go only when the human grabs it by its hairy neck and wrestles it back into its cage.

Keep it in the goddamn cage. It's not to be loved. It is indeed to be feared. It can destroy the very things you want it to protect if not tightly corralled.

It should not be wholly shunned, sure; there is the trope of enlisting a despised outcast in a time of need /for a reason/. And we must remember it's divine nature, I agree. But it's hands are only for tearing, and it's mouth is only for eating, and if you embrace it it will bite off your head and rip off your limbs.

Mahakala is holy, and Mahakala is the end of the world.
"I am that worst of all type of criminal...I cannot bring myself to do what you tell me, because you told me."

There's over 100 of us in this meat-suit. You'd think it runs like a ship, but it's more like a hundred and ten angry ghosts having an old-school QuakeWorld tournament, three people desperately trying to make sure the gamers don't go hungry or soil themselves, and the Facilities manager weeping in the corner as the garbage piles high.

The Wizard Joseph

I disagree, and you are entitled to your opinion nullified. I am entitled to mine.
You can't get out backward.  You have to go forward to go back.. better press on! - Willie Wonka, PBUH

Life can be seen as a game with no reset button, no extra lives, and if the power goes out there is no restarting.  If that's all you see life as you are not long for this world, and never will get it.

"Ayn Rand never swung a hammer in her life and had serious dominance issues" - The Fountainhead

"World domination is such an ugly phrase. I prefer to call it world optimisation."
- Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality :lulz:

"You program the controller to do the thing, only it doesn't do the thing.  It does something else entirely, or nothing at all.  It's like voting."
- Billy, Aug 21st, 2019

"It's not even chaos anymore. It's BANAL."
- Doktor Hamish Howl

chaotic neutral observer

Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on March 17, 2019, 08:45:24 PM
Normally I would remain silent on this but your questions deserve some form of answer.

Rather than getting into my intensely personal business on a public forum, or risking sounding like a shitlord internet tough guy, I will attempt to once again illustrate what I'm talking about by describing the events portrayed in the article that sparked this little rant in the first place.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/gunman-advanced-zealand-mosque-1-man-ran-him-092301154.html

Your response is just a deflection.  You didn't answer my question at all.  I was asking about you personally, specifically because I wanted to know if this was just armchair philosophy, or if you had actually put any of this into practice.  Because if you haven't, I can safely dismiss your ideas without further consideration.

Your example was nothing more than you projecting your preconceived ideas onto a situation about which only a preliminary report was available.  I didn't see any evidence of your "Holy Rage" in that account.

Quote
or risking sounding like a shitlord internet tough guy
You're coming across that way, anyway.
Desine fata deum flecti sperare precando.

Con-troll

Chimpanzees don't go around all day killing everything they see. They groom, climb in trees, and do other chimpanzee shit. Now, try to take one, put it in a cage, and keep it in there for years. What do you expect to happen when you go and open the door?

Animals are terribly rational in the way they do violence. They have millions of years of experience telling them, when it is a good idea to go batshit crazy on a killing spree, and when just chill. It is humans, who are capable of doing stupid, unnecessary violence, because WE put the animals into the cages, and make them grow hateful and bitter.

Nullified, I get that you are meaning that we'd cage only the rage part of the Ape, but I don't think Apes are that fond of scalpels.
I get trauma from stuff most don't even notice.

chaotic neutral observer

Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on March 17, 2019, 09:30:06 PM
I disagree, and you are entitled to your opinion nullified. I am entitled to mine.

:kingmeh:
"That's just your opinion" is one of the stupidest possible responses you can make to an argument.  If you believe you're in the right, keep fighting.  If you discover you're wrong, admit defeat, and learn something.
Desine fata deum flecti sperare precando.

chaotic neutral observer

Quote from: Con-troll on March 17, 2019, 10:04:11 PM
Chimpanzees don't go around all day killing everything they see. They groom, climb in trees, and do other chimpanzee shit.

Wild chimpanzees will organize attacks on other groups of chimps, kill them, and even cannibalize them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=al-f_WWoHI4

Quote
It is humans, who are capable of doing stupid, unnecessary violence, because WE put the animals into the cages, and make them grow hateful and bitter.

Nullified, I get that you are meaning that we'd cage only the rage part of the Ape, but I don't think Apes are that fond of scalpels.
You seem to think that there's some sort of distinct entity inside you, which is angry from being imprisoned.  This is a false extension of the analogy.  You have multiple internal motivating forces, but there is only one you.  Some of your motivating forces should not be given free play.  Refusing to give them free play does not make some "inner beast" angrier than it would be otherwise.
Desine fata deum flecti sperare precando.

altered

Quote from: Con-troll on March 17, 2019, 10:04:11 PM
Chimpanzees don't go around all day killing everything they see. They groom, climb in trees, and do other chimpanzee shit. Now, try to take one, put it in a cage, and keep it in there for years. What do you expect to happen when you go and open the door?

Animals are terribly rational in the way they do violence. They have millions of years of experience telling them, when it is a good idea to go batshit crazy on a killing spree, and when just chill. It is humans, who are capable of doing stupid, unnecessary violence, because WE put the animals into the cages, and make them grow hateful and bitter.

Nullified, I get that you are meaning that we'd cage only the rage part of the Ape, but I don't think Apes are that fond of scalpels.

We can replace most of the other things the Ape can offer. That's literally what makes the upright part of the brain special: it can see a problem and probably find a solution, if it's simple enough. The Ape is a simple tool for simple issues.

Cage the whole damn thing. Let it out to play when necessary, and no other time. You could make an argument against animal cruelty, but I don't think most of the sane animal rights groups are worried about protecting metaphorical animals, and I certainly don't care too much about that thing squatting in the back of Plato's cave, gnawing bones and howling at echoes. It deserves what it gets.
"I am that worst of all type of criminal...I cannot bring myself to do what you tell me, because you told me."

There's over 100 of us in this meat-suit. You'd think it runs like a ship, but it's more like a hundred and ten angry ghosts having an old-school QuakeWorld tournament, three people desperately trying to make sure the gamers don't go hungry or soil themselves, and the Facilities manager weeping in the corner as the garbage piles high.

chaotic neutral observer

Quote from: nullified on March 17, 2019, 09:18:26 PM
It's easy to think that we are somehow innately better than the fash, the terrorist, the murderer of passion — but the only difference is the choices we made. All of us carry the capacity for terrible cruelty, and that cruelty lives in both halves of us: the knuckle walking and the upright equally carry that potential.

If I had been born in 1915, in Germany, might I have become an actual Nazi?  Is there anything innate about me as a person that would prevent this?  This question bothers me occasionally.  I know people who would have died first; I know people who, I think, would have worn the swastika with pride.  But I can't answer this question about myself.  Intelligence wouldn't prevent it; that often just leads to more convoluted rationalizations.  How much of my morality is learned, and how much is inherent?

Maybe it's better not to ask these questions.  Leave the ape in its cage, and throw it some fresh fruit now and then, to keep it from rattling the bars too much.  It's enough to know that it can't be trusted, without worrying too much about how much it can't be trusted.
Desine fata deum flecti sperare precando.

The Wizard Joseph

Quote from: chaotic neutral observer on March 17, 2019, 09:52:01 PM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on March 17, 2019, 08:45:24 PM
Normally I would remain silent on this but your questions deserve some form of answer.

Rather than getting into my intensely personal business on a public forum, or risking sounding like a shitlord internet tough guy, I will attempt to once again illustrate what I'm talking about by describing the events portrayed in the article that sparked this little rant in the first place.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/gunman-advanced-zealand-mosque-1-man-ran-him-092301154.html

Your response is just a deflection.  You didn't answer my question at all.  I was asking about you personally, specifically because I wanted to know if this was just armchair philosophy, or if you had actually put any of this into practice.  Because if you haven't, I can safely dismiss your ideas without further consideration.

Your example was nothing more than you projecting your preconceived ideas onto a situation about which only a preliminary report was available.  I didn't see any evidence of your "Holy Rage" in that account.

Quote
or risking sounding like a shitlord internet tough guy
You're comng across that way, anyway.
:lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
Perhaps you should just have an argument with yourself then. I don't owe you a response. I'm content to let you think whatever you want of me. I've put it into practice many times. That's all I've got to say on the matter.
You can't get out backward.  You have to go forward to go back.. better press on! - Willie Wonka, PBUH

Life can be seen as a game with no reset button, no extra lives, and if the power goes out there is no restarting.  If that's all you see life as you are not long for this world, and never will get it.

"Ayn Rand never swung a hammer in her life and had serious dominance issues" - The Fountainhead

"World domination is such an ugly phrase. I prefer to call it world optimisation."
- Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality :lulz:

"You program the controller to do the thing, only it doesn't do the thing.  It does something else entirely, or nothing at all.  It's like voting."
- Billy, Aug 21st, 2019

"It's not even chaos anymore. It's BANAL."
- Doktor Hamish Howl

Telarus

#28
I both agree and disagree with everyone.  :evil: :fnord:

nullified describes the problem very succinctly, and has found his own solution.

But I think he and Joseph are cross-talking slightly. My silat style trains the old animal forms, so I let the monkey out when alone to train with it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pu2DkCZiAEA

Let us shift metaphors to one my teacher uses.

nullified is talking about the tiger, who needs no other reason to kill you than you are on his forest trail. It cares not that you are armed or what you are holding or doing and intends to knock your distracted ass down and kill you and consume what it wants of you.

Joseph is talking about the tigress, cornered in the bamboo grove with cubs behind her. She cares not what you are armed with but she will die before letting you get past her to the little ones.

That is why Shiva/Bacchus/Hanuman always has to learn the secrets of the universe from Kali/Eris(Rhea)/Guanyin before he can tackle the chaos of his previous bungling.
Telarus, KSC,
.__.  Keeper of the Contradictory Cephalopod, Zenarchist Swordsman,
(0o)  Tender to the Edible Zen Garden, Ratcheting Metallic Sex Doll of The End Times,
/||\   Episkopos of the Amorphous Dreams Cabal

Join the Doll Underground! Experience the Phantasmagorical Safari!

The Wizard Joseph

Quote from: chaotic neutral observer on March 17, 2019, 10:04:49 PM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on March 17, 2019, 09:30:06 PM
I disagree, and you are entitled to your opinion nullified. I am entitled to mine.

:kingmeh:
"That's just your opinion" is one of the stupidest possible responses you can make to an argument.  If you believe you're in the right, keep fighting.  If you discover you're wrong, admit defeat, and learn something.

:lulz: :lulz:

:kingmeh: It actually is a matter of opinion though. And I don't oh a fight to anybody on this forum or in my life.
You can't get out backward.  You have to go forward to go back.. better press on! - Willie Wonka, PBUH

Life can be seen as a game with no reset button, no extra lives, and if the power goes out there is no restarting.  If that's all you see life as you are not long for this world, and never will get it.

"Ayn Rand never swung a hammer in her life and had serious dominance issues" - The Fountainhead

"World domination is such an ugly phrase. I prefer to call it world optimisation."
- Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality :lulz:

"You program the controller to do the thing, only it doesn't do the thing.  It does something else entirely, or nothing at all.  It's like voting."
- Billy, Aug 21st, 2019

"It's not even chaos anymore. It's BANAL."
- Doktor Hamish Howl