Author Topic: Cancel Culture  (Read 18825 times)

Con-troll

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Re: Cancel Culture
« Reply #30 on: April 11, 2019, 07:59:47 am »
oops
I get trauma from stuff most don't even notice.

Doktor Howl

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Re: Cancel Culture
« Reply #31 on: April 11, 2019, 08:03:38 am »
oops

I hate to say it after all these years, but I smell poptard.
Molon Lube

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Re: Cancel Culture
« Reply #32 on: April 11, 2019, 08:09:29 am »
Aw, I hope not. I want to see if Cram puts on his “be-nice-to-the-shithead” hat or not. I’m guessing he’s about 70% of the way to where even nice-hat Cram will take a rancid dump on his open eyes, and that’s always an incredible sight.

The brown-orange bromine fumes, the greenish, oatmeal textured paste that you need a rocksaw to chisel off of the floor... that smell, like someone left some fish out in the desert for a week then doused it in vinegar and paint thinner to try and hide the reek.
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Con-troll

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Re: Cancel Culture
« Reply #33 on: April 11, 2019, 08:45:07 am »
Why is it I have to keep thinking about the victims?

They tend not to have the power to stop the abuse.

The tragedy hits them.
Breaks them.
For no fault of their own.

THERE WAS NOTHING THE VICTIM COULD'VE DONE DIFFERENTLY.

If you say there was you are victimblaming.

I KNOW they feel bad.
It is OBVIOUS.
They were violated.

Why not take the jump and think about what makes the abuser feel bad?
Before they've done anything.
Before they do more.

What are they running from?
What drives them to EXTREME ACTIONS to ease their suffering?

THERE WAS A LOT THE ABUSER SHOULD'VE DONE DIFFERENTLY.

And the abuser is their enviroment.
All the labels sticked onto them.

...

I'm probably still prioritizing wrong or devaluing the victim.

Victims are the symptom, not the cause.


Come on, bash my face in with that brick, I know you want to.
I get trauma from stuff most don't even notice.

Faust

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Re: Cancel Culture
« Reply #34 on: April 11, 2019, 09:00:13 am »
Con-troll, you have a shovel, and you keep digging.

Avoiding the carbon monoxide leak and trying to circle back to the point on cancel culture (I really like this phrase) and run through examples in my head.
Last year Ireland had a very emotional vote on abortion, becoming the first country to legalise it by democratic vote, there was of course uglyness but not as much as I was expecting. The government did a good job of heading it off at the pass and said "This will be a divisive issue and when debating it with family or friends remember they are also coming from an emotionally charged place".

I had a lot of disagreement with my mother over this, she is and remains anti-abortion coming from a deeply catholic background and that irreconcilable position that it is murder, right up to the last day I was convinced she was going to vote against, she surprised me though and voted to remove the law blocking it. She still maintains she is anti abortion but didn't believe it was the place of the the state to legislate on that and that it was a personal matter.
I have seen others who have lost close friends over this on either side of the debate but for the most part approaching it with empathy and understanding of the other persons position (even if you think it is deluded) was the only way constructive discussion could happen on this.
Public figures who came out in support of allowing abortion including our health minister (who had to give a stance as it was a referendum related to his area) was not vilified, didn't have nasty tricks on funding or personal abuse or protesters showing up outside his house, it was a show of restraint by the anti-abortion side that in other  countries would have attempted to destroy him.

The second example of the attention deficit judgement was Liam Neeson and the racist comment a few months back. A sound byte came out in the media of Neeson saying that after a friend of his was raped by a black lad, he went out with a gun looking to shoot the first black lad he saw. Media outrage ensues twitter activists calling for a boycott of his films. You can probably see where this is going.
The full context of this was of course something different, even though the full interview was available to anyone who wanted to watch it. He was describing destructive and irrational impulses for a revenge film he was working on, the story was an example of something he deeply regretted and openly admits was coming from a place of ignorance and racial bias. Northern Ireland in the seventies and eighties was a deeply racist, xenophobic and awful place.
But no, no one is allowed to grow as person, or to ever have made a mistake and god forbid they ever openly admit that they were.

The last one Nullified is one you might be familiar with, and it's not one I am going to defend. Graham Linehan, the writer of two of the best comedy shows of all time, is a transphobe and a dickhead on twitter. I'm not going to talk about the separation between the artist and their art because that is a slightly different argument (though you will get me to stop watching The IT crowd and Father Ted when you pry the box sets from my cold dead hand).
This started months ago where he tweeted some stuff about gender binary beliefs and the LGBTQ responded with a mix of reasonable responses and the far louder immediate outcry to boycott him and a mix of personal abuse.
If he had left it at that, I wouldn't agree with his views but I would have been supportive of him. Until this point him and Pyle have bit of a parallel both vilified because of their personal views to a disproportionate backlash.
But oh no, Linehan didn't leave it there, he doubled down, singled out transgender people responding to him and came out with some pretty disgusting abuse of them. He has to this day not stopped posting this abuse or sharing pretty disgusting articles that are very anti-LGBTQ. He leaned in to it and now comes across as a 1920's mustachio twirling villain who ties transwomen to railroad tracks.

So I draw the comparison, Pyle holds pro-life views but in the wider context seems like a decent person, he holds views I wouldn't agree with but so do a lot of the weirdo creators out there that I enjoy. He has been unfairly slated in a way that undermines this form of activism as a legitimate source of social change.

For every legitimate Weinstein and Linehan there is Neeson or Pyle getting caught up in the rage machine which for me demonstrates more walls going up to block any social change for the better.
People need to look at the finer detail before they take to arms or they will invalidate their cause regardless of what it is.
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Con-troll

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Re: Cancel Culture
« Reply #35 on: April 11, 2019, 09:25:52 am »
That shit was in my head, you are strangers in the internet, you can have it, I need to get it OUT.
I get trauma from stuff most don't even notice.

The Johnny

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Re: Cancel Culture
« Reply #36 on: April 11, 2019, 09:35:29 am »
Why is it I have to keep thinking about the victims?

They tend not to have the power to stop the abuse.

The tragedy hits them.
Breaks them.
For no fault of their own.

THERE WAS NOTHING THE VICTIM COULD'VE DONE DIFFERENTLY.

If you say there was you are victimblaming.

I KNOW they feel bad.
It is OBVIOUS.
They were violated.

Why not take the jump and think about what makes the abuser feel bad?
Before they've done anything.
Before they do more.

What are they running from?
What drives them to EXTREME ACTIONS to ease their suffering?

THERE WAS A LOT THE ABUSER SHOULD'VE DONE DIFFERENTLY.

And the abuser is their enviroment.
All the labels sticked onto them.

...

I'm probably still prioritizing wrong or devaluing the victim.

Victims are the symptom, not the cause.


Come on, bash my face in with that brick, I know you want to.

Since i havent seen a reference to Hitler in a while and we need to adhere to Godwin's Law here it goes:

Hitler had a shit life, got influenced and mislead by his time's antisemitism, and he was rejected from art school several times... yes, a "victim" of his time and circumstances.

But when you "turn" from victim to perpetrator, you absolutely deserve no sympathy or mercy, unless its within the boundaries of reforming. Then you need to be put down like a rabid dog, so you dont infect or kill others.

If you cant agree with this youre just an apologist and complicit.
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Re: Cancel Culture
« Reply #37 on: April 11, 2019, 09:48:22 am »
I had no idea about any of this stuff, Faust. I lead a very sheltered life as a sort of survival mechanism. I have enough to worry about without policing the lives of rich white people I don’t know and will never meet.

Let’s start with Pyle. Let me be /very/ clear. I am saying Pyle’s position is personally morally objectionable to me, and having any association with him would make me hate myself. But his position is one that is not /innately, specifically/ evil. It can be used for evil, but there are morally neutral formulations of it, some which have no easy answers at all.

A Pyle like figure popping up in my stuff would entail abandoning any interest in media related to them. That’s it. That’s the whole extent. Sure, I’d explain why if asked, but given a relatively quiet and non-stupid reaction to the backlash from that figure (as seems to have happened here) there’s no point in bringing up “oh you know that guy did X” or whatever the fuck every time I see his name. It goes as far as “oh, I don’t care about this anymore.”

A Neeson like figure is different. I feel there is no defense possible for his actions, so I’m glad he agrees with me. He should be used to communicate how to handle “becoming a non shitty person” and shown an appropriate level of contempt (which basically amounts to “never let him live it down”, in the sense of not letting a friend live down a particularly stupid stunt — don’t let it be forgotten, but do forgive). This is my opinion, but I do think this is the ideal “public” response as well. You need to reinforce that not being a shitneck in the first place is the ideal to reach, and losing your shitneck nature later on down the line is an admirable event, but ultimately lands you, at best, runner up. I wouldn’t even cut a Neeson like figure out of my media diet: they did the right thing eventually, and not as part of a halting, hemming-and-hawing obvious PR blunderbuss approach, just being honest with themselves and everyone else. That’s worth quite a bit to me.

And a Linehan figure is the one I would go far, far out of my way to make miserable. Anyone making excuses for that kind of behavior deserves similar treatment. Some things are unacceptable.
“I am that worst of all type of criminal...I cannot bring myself to do what you tell me, because you told me.”

“Ever watch that famous war movie? That’s how it’ll be.”
“Which one?”
“The one where everybody dies.”
— Blood Standard, Laird Barron

Remember the fall of Yin Tu.

Con-troll

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Re: Cancel Culture
« Reply #38 on: April 11, 2019, 10:22:04 am »
Why is it I have to keep thinking about the victims?

They tend not to have the power to stop the abuse.

The tragedy hits them.
Breaks them.
For no fault of their own.

THERE WAS NOTHING THE VICTIM COULD'VE DONE DIFFERENTLY.

If you say there was you are victimblaming.

I KNOW they feel bad.
It is OBVIOUS.
They were violated.

Why not take the jump and think about what makes the abuser feel bad?
Before they've done anything.
Before they do more.

What are they running from?
What drives them to EXTREME ACTIONS to ease their suffering?

THERE WAS A LOT THE ABUSER SHOULD'VE DONE DIFFERENTLY.

And the abuser is their enviroment.
All the labels sticked onto them.

...

I'm probably still prioritizing wrong or devaluing the victim.

Victims are the symptom, not the cause.


Come on, bash my face in with that brick, I know you want to.

Since i havent seen a reference to Hitler in a while and we need to adhere to Godwin's Law here it goes:

Hitler had a shit life, got influenced and mislead by his time's antisemitism, and he was rejected from art school several times... yes, a "victim" of his time and circumstances.

But when you "turn" from victim to perpetrator, you absolutely deserve no sympathy or mercy, unless its within the boundaries of reforming. Then you need to be put down like a rabid dog, so you dont infect or kill others.

If you cant agree with this youre just an apologist and complicit.

Guess I'll keep on derailing and ridiculing myself.

Hitler is quite an extreme example. He was literally the most nazi nazi who had will, determination, and the conditions to carry out his sick fantasies. Most nazis I've come to contact with are the ones contaminated by shitty memes, and then they reach this edginess threshold, after which people around them start to push them away, towards the more radical viewpoint.

It's not that they are beyond saving, one can wake up from coma speaking only french for fucks sakes. It's just we are, probably justly, prioritizing other people. And that hurts the would-be-nazis and validates their worldview.

That's all I'm trying to say.
I get trauma from stuff most don't even notice.

Faust

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Re: Cancel Culture
« Reply #39 on: April 11, 2019, 10:46:50 am »
I had no idea about any of this stuff, Faust. I lead a very sheltered life as a sort of survival mechanism. I have enough to worry about without policing the lives of rich white people I don’t know and will never meet.
Exactly, and it is tied into media obsession with celebrity that these cases are kept in public attention. What I am describing here isn't reflective of anyone here or individuals, it's a process that only becomes the problem on aggregate. In fact the self sustaining nature of it would not be possible on an individual level, it requires multiple people to run away with it.
It is this mechanism that only manifests on an aggregate level that I have an issue with.

Quote
Let’s start with Pyle. Let me be /very/ clear. I am saying Pyle’s position is personally morally objectionable to me, and having any association with him would make me hate myself. But his position is one that is not /innately, specifically/ evil. It can be used for evil, but there are morally neutral formulations of it, some which have no easy answers at all.


A Pyle like figure popping up in my stuff would entail abandoning any interest in media related to them. That’s it. That’s the whole extent. Sure, I’d explain why if asked, but given a relatively quiet and non-stupid reaction to the backlash from that figure (as seems to have happened here) there’s no point in bringing up “oh you know that guy did X” or whatever the fuck every time I see his name. It goes as far as “oh, I don’t care about this anymore.”
Sure that's fair, there is a difference though in vilifying a person for their beliefs or calling for a boycott of him, and choosing not to consume his media because it wouldn't interest you in the context of who it is coming from. The Former feeds the mechanism I described, the latter does not.

Quote
A Neeson like figure is different. I feel there is no defense possible for his actions, so I’m glad he agrees with me. He should be used to communicate how to handle “becoming a non shitty person” and shown an appropriate level of contempt (which basically amounts to “never let him live it down”, in the sense of not letting a friend live down a particularly stupid stunt — don’t let it be forgotten, but do forgive). This is my opinion, but I do think this is the ideal “public” response as well. You need to reinforce that not being a shitneck in the first place is the ideal to reach, and losing your shitneck nature later on down the line is an admirable event, but ultimately lands you, at best, runner up. I wouldn’t even cut a Neeson like figure out of my media diet: they did the right thing eventually, and not as part of a halting, hemming-and-hawing obvious PR blunderbuss approach, just being honest with themselves and everyone else. That’s worth quite a bit to me.

Yes exactly, he wasn't looking to defend the actions, nor looking for commendation on that, he was explicitly using it as a personal example of a personal failing in a story of why revenge solves nothing. In the context of the time though, Northern Ireland catholic kids in the 1980's were denied many rights and all came from impoverished backgrounds, in short they were thick as pigshit.

The fact that the perpetrator was black was what the media zoomed in on because "Neeson Racist" gets clicks. Again it ignores that he acknowledged this, but also the fact that back then racist prejudices against black people in Ireland were widespread, Ireland to it's shame was backwards for a very long time.
This comes from two places, ignorance and spread of racial xenophobic stereotypes, and that the average Irish person would not have met or interacted with any black people. In 1997 the total black population of the country was literally around 1000, in the eighties it was less than a quarter of that. That disgusting racist boogie man stereotyping didn't start to unwind until the late nineties. "It was a different time" is the argument that gets thrown out a defense of that, but it is not defensible, it was around the same period that allowed pedophilia to run rampant in the organisation of the church that most of the country was devoted to. The point is the country has moved on from that very dark point in its history.

Quote
And a Linehan figure is the one I would go far, far out of my way to make miserable. Anyone making excuses for that kind of behavior deserves similar treatment. Some things are unacceptable.
Agreed, he deserves to be challenged on his beliefs, as to abusing him online, he revels in it and is getting attention for it specifically because of the the self sustaining mechanism of people doing that on aggregate. As long as people keep feeding into his demands for attention, even if it is to get calls that we boycott him etc, it gives platform to his shitty beliefs. A pressure can be put on the media not to fund his shows which is what it looks like people were trying to do. Instead it backfired spectacularly where he was suddenly seen as a spokesperson for a debate against transpeople and was brought in to a televised debate when in truth no one should be listening to his dumb opinions. Suddenly a comedy writer with shitty beliefs is now a nasty political commentator with a platform.
It is this mechanism that is partially responsible for empowering the worst aspects of what we are seeing currently with Trump / Neo Nazi's etc. Because the Media gives time to the things that get attention, it ends up fueling this. Where Dickheads like Lenihan can use it to there advantage and gentler people like Pyle are crushed.
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The Johnny

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Re: Cancel Culture
« Reply #40 on: April 11, 2019, 11:07:52 am »
Since i havent seen a reference to Hitler in a while and we need to adhere to Godwin's Law here it goes:

Hitler had a shit life, got influenced and mislead by his time's antisemitism, and he was rejected from art school several times... yes, a "victim" of his time and circumstances.

But when you "turn" from victim to perpetrator, you absolutely deserve no sympathy or mercy, unless its within the boundaries of reforming. Then you need to be put down like a rabid dog, so you dont infect or kill others.

If you cant agree with this youre just an apologist and complicit.

Guess I'll keep on derailing and ridiculing myself.

Hitler is quite an extreme example. He was literally the most nazi nazi who had will, determination, and the conditions to carry out his sick fantasies. Most nazis I've come to contact with are the ones contaminated by shitty memes, and then they reach this edginess threshold, after which people around them start to push them away, towards the more radical viewpoint.

It's not that they are beyond saving, one can wake up from coma speaking only french for fucks sakes. It's just we are, probably justly, prioritizing other people. And that hurts the would-be-nazis and validates their worldview.

That's all I'm trying to say.

The mental image i get from all that youre saying is a codependant woman with a black eye, telling me how "i dont understand" her abusive druggie boyfriend, and how he, deep down is a good natured person that simply had a bad childhood and is going thru some troubles currently.

You cant reform someone thru hugs and kisses, love and caring if theyre coming at you with a knife.

This thing you call "edginess" can also be called "callousness", which is a lack of caring or empathy for what might happen or what the other might feel, and in most cases that also implies a lack of interest for a rational discussion, its rationalized hatred and theyre just interested in justifying their actions.

Please stop confusing victims with predators/perpretators, its like accountability doesnt exist in your world.
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Con-troll

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Re: Cancel Culture
« Reply #41 on: April 11, 2019, 12:11:14 pm »
Okok, I get it. Pitying the zombies will most likely get me eaten.

I still want to believe there's a cure, but preventing more people from getting bitten is themore immideate concern, so no bringing test subjects to the fortress.
I get trauma from stuff most don't even notice.

Faust

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Re: Cancel Culture
« Reply #42 on: April 11, 2019, 12:33:09 pm »
Okok, I get it. Pitying the zombies will most likely get me eaten.

I still want to believe there's a cure, but preventing more people from getting bitten is themore immideate concern, so no bringing test subjects to the fortress.
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Re: Cancel Culture
« Reply #43 on: April 11, 2019, 03:02:21 pm »
Aw, I hope not. I want to see if Cram puts on his “be-nice-to-the-shithead” hat or not. I’m guessing he’s about 70% of the way to where even nice-hat Cram will take a rancid dump on his open eyes, and that’s always an incredible sight.

somebody on the internet had a bad opinion so you want me to do this machismo threatening monkey thing? Detail the horrific violence I wish upon them? I'll pass--that's not my style, and it tends to make things worse.


I hate to advocate the devil, but there is a scale-----
Al Franken is not the same thing as Brock Turner.
Aziz Ansari is not the same thing as Harvey Weinstein.
People hypnotized by fascist ideology as a reaction to liberal moral outrage is not the same thing as someone who attends KKK meetings.

part of the difference is in the self awareness, the capacity to recognize an error and address it within oneself.

What role can we play in that? We can help prompt that reflection.

That's ContraPoints goal, and why her channel is so good - she doesn't lecture, she doesn't sermonize, she genuinely tries to understand where they're coming from and correct the error. She does it with honey, not vinegar. Empathy, not judgment. She doesn't trigger the defense shields. Cause that actually works.

Upthread, I mentioned how telling pro-life feminists that they are not allowed to be feminists has hastened the fracturing of feminism, in some ways decreasing its efficacy as a female coalition and causing it to sink into the quagmire of left vs right politics. It's not something you can easily generalize - not all identities deserve a place at the intersectional table. But I do think the real work gets done at the table, not across the aisle.


and I have a selfish reason for not lashing out, too -- when this board becomes a bunch of monkey screeching, following people from thread to thread and telling them to fuck off, I drift away. It creates an evironment where everybody only posts "safe" opinions and we are just patting each other on the back for being right. Yeah, some poptarts and genuine trolls do deserve that howling. One of my fav things about PD is being challenged, encountering opinions outside my own, and trying to understand where they're coming from (even if I will never agree).

lol, here I am, sermonizing -- sorry

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Re: Cancel Culture
« Reply #44 on: April 11, 2019, 07:43:59 pm »
How do you create an opening to encourage self awareness that doesn’t put every victim and/or target of shitty people in danger? If you leave the door open for some things to be “on a scale” you create a /fucking dangerous/ gap in your defenses.

What you’re talking about specifically above is a backdoor for concern trolls, sea lions, and a kind of troll I don’t have a snappy term for that promotes exactly one tiny shitty part of a larger shitty ideology, but publicly rejects the rest of it, in an attempt to win over community members, bit by bit, to being totally shitty.



Also, since this shit is on a scale and as far as we can tell he’s never “crossed a line”, let’s go bring Loveshade into the fold. Noble seemed like he was just misguided, right? Let pull the ban on him and invite him back. Hey, Ron Paul too. While we’re at it, gnos from the IRC is an incel but he can probably be fixed, let’s call him in too. How many Nazis and other scumbags have we excluded? Let’s /revisit/ that list.

That sounds fucking stupid, doesn’t it?

That’s what it sounds like to me every time someone starts talking about pedos and rapists and Nazis being on a fucking scale. They’re scum, pure and fucking simple. You cannot wash the stain of being a rapist or a kiddy fiddler off of you, and you shouldn’t be able to cover the swastika tattoos or delete the “Gender-critical” from your bio either.

Some behavior is not fucking acceptable. I don’t give a fuck if they become pariahs. They asked for that the second they covered themselves in dogshit and started yelling slurs. I don’t care if they /can/ be saved, why would you fucking /want/ to?
“I am that worst of all type of criminal...I cannot bring myself to do what you tell me, because you told me.”

“Ever watch that famous war movie? That’s how it’ll be.”
“Which one?”
“The one where everybody dies.”
— Blood Standard, Laird Barron

Remember the fall of Yin Tu.