Open Bar: Subpoenaed by Congress, but still refusing to testify

[LMNO]

About Lincoln, this is the statue in Boston BLM is objecting to.

I'm pretty sure I can understand why someone wouldn't want to see themselves as some sort of helpless savage genuflecting to a white savior.

[Elder Iptuous]

Of course, there's that too....
Those get lots of clicks and spread well digitally.
In large groups we are erecting walls of righteous indignation.
But face to face I see movement.  Some non canned thinking.
I've been more able to inject nuance into the conversation with friends and family, and had people admit to culpability that they wouldn't have before.
I'm hoping that these little interactions are playing out with others everywhere in this stew of chaos.
The general chaos will hopefully be opportunity

[chaotic neutral observer]

About Lincoln, this is the statue in Boston BLM is objecting to.

I'm pretty sure I can understand why someone wouldn't want to see themselves as some sort of helpless savage genuflecting to a white savior.

I didn't know about that one.  I can see why that one should be removed (or replaced).  I was thinking more of the Lincoln memorial, as a counter point to the "all statues should be removed" idea.

[altered]

Yeah that statue has always struck me as fucking miserably awful. Like the fact it exists at all is offensive to me.

That said, I've seen a good argument for destroying Lincoln's statues in general: he only freed Confederate slaves and spoke often and loudly in opposition to abolishing slavery. He gets all the credit for it though, when that credit should go to the Black people who fought tooth and nail to be heard. Part of that is the mentality I described before around statues, and so long as we have him depicted as this paternalistic enlightened figure it will keep on happening because people are dipshits.

[Cramulus]

in a nearby parallel reality, people are tearing down a statue of Robocop, and I'm furious

[Doktor Howl]

And when the cops get involved, one boomer keeps yelling at the black people "Oh so NOW you LIKE cops?"

"oh so you SAY you hate cops when they're summarily executing you for driving infractions, but when they actually do their job you're HAPPY about it? Curious!"

[Doktor Howl]

Is it the prevailing view on the board that there is no valid arguments against the statue destructions?

It doesn't seem simple to me.

Hmm... Perhaps it would be more effective to erect statues of these historical figures showcasing their flaws.  The opposition could rail against the ideas conveyed, but they would not have the righteous indignation that is lent by witnessing the destruction of historical public property.

I don't see any need to negotiate, though.  There are no statues to Adolf Hitler, and everyone remembers who he was.  The statues were put up decades after the civil war as an intimidation tactic.

Tear 'em down.

This is a good point.  The Confederate statues I would not argue for.  They are not considered a touchstone of our national identity, contributing to who we aspire to be.  You could argue that they showed bravery in combat, or strategic genius, or loyalty to a cause.... but it wasn't the cause of who we want to be.
So fuck em.

But when we are considering the flawed characters that did layout the framework of what we want to be, I can understand some of the talking points coming out of the red team, as well as those of the blue team.

The two non-slaver statues that people are railing against are both truly offensive.

[Elder Iptuous]

One being the lincoln statue above?
I can definitely see that as patronizing!
What's the other?

[Don Coyote]

When the folx spearheading the "vandalizing" these statues are the folx who were subject to the shit monster, I see no reason to not tear them down nor do I see any reason for statues about them in anyway to be built unless those folx are the ones spearheading it.
https://www.lataco.com/serra-statue-chumash-tongva/
Like fuck the spanish missionaries.

Unrelated: I now have 60% VA disability rating.

[Doktor Howl]

One being the lincoln statue above?
I can definitely see that as patronizing!
What's the other?

Teddy Roosevelt and a couple of PoC doing the same fawning thing.

[Freeky]

No. Im going to be blunt about this:
I do not suppport him
I do not support them
I am not dismissing what they have said
I will not be making a judgement call on a person because of a twitter post
I will not be making a judgement of a person without hearing thier side of the story.

If that seems callous, tough. I expect more before I'm going to write someone off. I will not support an accusation without evidence or a chance for  both parties to respond, nor do I ignore it.

If you are asking for more you are asking for a leap of faith. Faith is something I have short supply of

you're right. i had a knee-jerk reaction, and it was shitty of me. sorry, faust.

[Freeky]

my stance is to trust, but verify
by default, I believe women when they come forward with these things

this is what i default to, as well, and it's. difficult. for me to face that sometimes i get overzealous in my trust, and negligent in my verify.

then i agreed with everything else, plus

the real clincher?

Will Ellis say "these women are all lying for personal gain"
or "I was an asshole, I'm sorry, and I'd like to be better"    ?

did anything come up? i stepped away from everything  because i was being irrational about it.

[Freeky]

Warren Ellis unreservedly admitted what happened, with the only out he gave himself being he didn't realise he had any position of power.
He doesnt go into specifics, just apologised for everything and deplatformed himself

oh.

[Freeky]

Is it the prevailing view on the board that there is no valid arguments against the statue destructions?

It doesn't seem simple to me.

Hmm... Perhaps it would be more effective to erect statues of these historical figures showcasing their flaws.  The opposition could rail against the ideas conveyed, but they would not have the righteous indignation that is lent by witnessing the destruction of historical public property.

i heard an opinion from either john oliver, stephen colbert, or possibly treor noah that was basically "we don't have statues up for hitler, but we know what he did." i tend to agree that statues don't promote discussion, they promote admiration by virtue of "wow, that guy got turned into a statue, he must have been important" to your average person who doesn't care about history.

[Freeky]

Is it the prevailing view on the board that there is no valid arguments against the statue destructions?

It doesn't seem simple to me.

Hmm... Perhaps it would be more effective to erect statues of these historical figures showcasing their flaws.  The opposition could rail against the ideas conveyed, but they would not have the righteous indignation that is lent by witnessing the destruction of historical public property.

I don't see any need to negotiate, though.  There are no statues to Adolf Hitler, and everyone remembers who he was.  The statues were put up decades after the civil war as an intimidation tactic.

Tear 'em down.

oops, doc beat me