Being a little wrong to be completely right

[Jackie]

Hi I'm Jackie and I joined the forum just to post this. I come seeking wisdom.

I've been re-reading a passage today and I think it feels very Discordian, so I wanted thoughts on the matter.

Source: https://www.prequeladventure.com/2014/05/3391/
Relevant passage starts at "It wasn't easier", goes on until the end

Most relevant part being,

You're trying to do things right, and that's wrong. Mysticism means taking a step back – accepting that the very laws of reason and logic you abide by are merely one option of many. It means knowing you only see half the picture in a world where everyone else thinks they see the whole thing. It means having the sheer arrogance to have humility.

That's why I'm saying you have to think like a witchhunter. You have to be a little wrong to be completely right – to abandon truth in favor of questioning falsehood. If you think something's the easiest way, you have to know you're wrong. You have to understand how to stand against the very stance of understanding! You have to know you are inferior; that your knowledge and perceptions will never stand up to the true scope of all possible reality. You have to be a little further from perfect, and embrace that notion.

[altered]

On point, surprisingly. Good stuff.

I'm glad we're getting a better class of noob than we did when, say, I joined. Pool's on the roof, don't buy stock options from LMNO or worldviews from the new model Cramulus. (Manufacturer changed hands and the new models are a bit shifty.)

[Q. G. Pennyworth]

Hey Jackie! Have you seen Holy Nonsense yet?

[Jackie]

I hadn't, no. Taking a look right now.

[Doktor Howl]

Hi I'm Jackie and I joined the forum just to post this. I come seeking wisdom.

I've been re-reading a passage today and I think it feels very Discordian, so I wanted thoughts on the matter.

Source: https://www.prequeladventure.com/2014/05/3391/
Relevant passage starts at "It wasn't easier", goes on until the end

Most relevant part being,

You're trying to do things right, and that's wrong. Mysticism means taking a step back – accepting that the very laws of reason and logic you abide by are merely one option of many. It means knowing you only see half the picture in a world where everyone else thinks they see the whole thing. It means having the sheer arrogance to have humility.

That's why I'm saying you have to think like a witchhunter. You have to be a little wrong to be completely right – to abandon truth in favor of questioning falsehood. If you think something's the easiest way, you have to know you're wrong. You have to understand how to stand against the very stance of understanding! You have to know you are inferior; that your knowledge and perceptions will never stand up to the true scope of all possible reality. You have to be a little further from perfect, and embrace that notion.

Well, this is a refreshing change from the bot-swarm and outlandish new person thing.

Welcome to the board.

Now, as to the quote.  It's crap.  Humans are weaponized apes.  We are apex pursuit predators that are objectively the best at what we do on the entire planet.  We alone can literally jog all day.  We are the Jason Vorheez of the animal kingdom.

THAT BEING SAID, we also fuck up like champions.  There is none of this "getting our antlers stuck together and starving to death" crap.  No.  We split atoms in our own atmosphere.  We are absolutely superior at what we do, and that INCLUDES being TOTAL DUMBASSES.  We don't worry about "absolute reality", we just IGNORE it, because we're too busy telling God WHAT.  Or the formless void, if you happen to be an atheist, like that apostate swine EoC.

If you're a witch hunter, pretty soon all you see is witches.  If you're a mystic, pretty soon everything is MAGICKAL.

If you're an ASSHAT, the world is yours.  To have.  To hold.  To light on fire and shove down the staircase.

Ook, ook, motherfuckers. 

[chaotic neutral observer]

Hi I'm Jackie and I joined the forum just to post this. I come seeking wisdom.

Hello, new person!

I'm not the one to talk to about gaining wisdom.  My schtick is more about losing the wisdom I thought I had.

I've been re-reading a passage today and I think it feels very Discordian, so I wanted thoughts on the matter.

'kay.

You're trying to do things right, and that's wrong. Mysticism means taking a step back – accepting that the very laws of reason and logic you abide by are merely one option of many.

I don't see reason and logic as laws one abides by, but rather as tools.  They're quite useful, most of the time.  I would also recommend a cordless drill, a sledgehammer, a pair of secateurs, and a digital multimeter.

It means knowing you only see half the picture in a world where everyone else thinks they see the whole thing.

I wouldn't presume what everyone else thinks.

You have to be a little wrong to be completely right – to abandon truth in favor of questioning falsehood.

Why do I have to abandon truth to question falsehood?  Isn't questioning things how one gets closer to the truth?
...for that matter, if something is false, why am I spending time questioning it?  Shouldn't I question the stuff I'm not sure about?

If you think something's the easiest way, you have to know you're wrong.

It doesn't matter much to me if something is the easiest, only if it's easy enough.  At some point, you gotta stop optimizing and move on to the next thing, or you won't get anything done.

You have to understand how to stand against the very stance of understanding!

'kay.

You have to know you are inferior;

I don't think my self-esteem issues are a net positive.

that your knowledge and perceptions will never stand up to the true scope of all possible reality.

My raging paranoia does come in pretty handy, though.

You have to be a little further from perfect, and embrace that notion.

I don't really get it.  Sounds complicated.

[chaotic neutral observer]

I don't see reason and logic as laws one abides by, but rather as tools.  They're quite useful, most of the time.  I would also recommend a cordless drill, a sledgehammer, a pair of secateurs, and a digital multimeter.

Also wire strippers, side-cutters, vice-grips, a hacksaw, a soldering iron, and some WD-40.

[The Johnny]

don't buy stock options from LMNO or worldviews from the new model Cramulus. (Manufacturer changed hands and the new models are a bit shifty.)

Ironically since we're talking about mysticism, Cram must be one of the most suited to engage 

You're trying to do things right, and that's wrong. Mysticism means taking a step back – accepting that the very laws of reason and logic you abide by are merely one option of many. It means knowing you only see half the picture in a world where everyone else thinks they see the whole thing. It means having the sheer arrogance to have humility.

That's why I'm saying you have to think like a witchhunter. You have to be a little wrong to be completely right – to abandon truth in favor of questioning falsehood. If you think something's the easiest way, you have to know you're wrong. You have to understand how to stand against the very stance of understanding! You have to know you are inferior; that your knowledge and perceptions will never stand up to the true scope of all possible reality. You have to be a little further from perfect, and embrace that notion.

The main thing I think about is Nietzsche and his murky elaborations on perspectivism... values, needs and meaning depend on your subjective experiences and these can interfere and taint your perception so much that it bleeds into what reality is for you.

But then again, there's bridges and engineering, rocket-science and medicine, which for the most part there's a "right" way to do it, and the "wrong way" to do it where people start dying.

In short, it's really important to distinguish the subjective and objective realms of reality and act accordingly.

[Jackie]

Humans are weaponized apes.

There are no humans in the section. It's a racist elf ghost talking to a giant talking cat.

I'm not the one to talk to about gaining wisdom.

Well if I wanted any wise wisdom, I don't think I'd have come here of all places, would I?

I don't see reason and logic as laws one abides by, but rather as tools.

Which is exactly the point. Not to blindly cling to one set of rules.

Isn't questioning things how one gets closer to the truth? ...for that matter, if something is false, why am I spending time questioning it?

Merely abandoning one truth - one thing you think is absolute - in order to question whether what you think is false is actually false. Experimenting with what's taken for granted.

It doesn't matter much to me if something is the easiest, only if it's easy enough.

Again, the text isn't advocating for finding the easiest method. It just says the method you think is easiest probably isn't, and there's an easier method.

I don't really get it.  Sounds complicated.

You have to know your view of reality isn't perfect, and can never be; you have to learn to distinguish your view from reality from others, and adapt it to your situation.

But then again, there's bridges and engineering, rocket-science and medicine, which for the most part there's a "right" way to do it, and the "wrong way" to do it where people start dying.

I'd argue those are less "different ways" and more just "doing it wrong". For any one engineering-and-others problem, there's different good ways of solving the problem (evidenced by we finding some new ones contantly), but for each method you can either do it right or... not.

[chaotic neutral observer]

Humans are weaponized apes.

There are no humans in the section. It's a racist elf ghost talking to a giant talking cat.

They're anthropomorphised characters.  The text was written by a human, for a human audience.  I think it makes sense to map their conversation to the human experience.

I'm not the one to talk to about gaining wisdom.

Well if I wanted any wise wisdom, I don't think I'd have come here of all places, would I?

People who come here often have strange preconceptions.

You have to be a little wrong to be completely right -- to abandon truth in favor of questioning falsehood.

Isn't questioning things how one gets closer to the truth? ...for that matter, if something is false, why am I spending time questioning it?

Merely abandoning one truth - one thing you think is absolute - in order to question whether what you think is false is actually false. Experimenting with what's taken for granted.

I agree with what you said (in isolation) but it doesn't quite reflect the original.  The original didn't say questioning whether things you think are false are really false, but questioning things that are false.  There's a huge distinction there.  Similarly, there's a difference between abandoning the truth, and abandoning something you once thought was true.

It doesn't matter much to me if something is the easiest, only if it's easy enough.

Again, the text isn't advocating for finding the easiest method. It just says the method you think is easiest probably isn't, and there's an easier method.

Of course there's an easier method.  Duh.  But why does that matter, once I've found a method that's good enough?
I only skimmed the one page you linked to.  Does the cat eventually give up on that telekinesis nonsense and just use his/her paws?

You have to be a little further from perfect, and embrace that notion.

I don't really get it.  Sounds complicated.

You have to know your view of reality isn't perfect, and can never be; you have to learn to distinguish your view from reality from others, and adapt it to your situation.

I understand that, but I don't read it in the passage I originally quoted.  What has recognizing your limitations got to do with moving "a little further from perfect"?  I would say that is getting closer to perfect.  (Assuming that "perfect" actually means anything in this context).

That author needs to stop being clever, forget about trying to invent a koan every other line, and just say what they mean.

[LMNO]

Hey, looking to buy any stock options?

[Cramulus]

Hi I'm Jackie and I joined the forum just to post this. I come seeking wisdom.

I've been re-reading a passage today and I think it feels very Discordian, so I wanted thoughts on the matter.

Source: https://www.prequeladventure.com/2014/05/3391/
Relevant passage starts at "It wasn't easier", goes on until the end

Most relevant part being,

You're trying to do things right, and that's wrong. Mysticism means taking a step back – accepting that the very laws of reason and logic you abide by are merely one option of many. It means knowing you only see half the picture in a world where everyone else thinks they see the whole thing. It means having the sheer arrogance to have humility.

That's why I'm saying you have to think like a witchhunter. You have to be a little wrong to be completely right – to abandon truth in favor of questioning falsehood. If you think something's the easiest way, you have to know you're wrong. You have to understand how to stand against the very stance of understanding! You have to know you are inferior; that your knowledge and perceptions will never stand up to the true scope of all possible reality. You have to be a little further from perfect, and embrace that notion.

Hi Jackie and welcome to the Hungry Hungry Hippos Support Forum.

Thanks for sharing that passage! It called to mind the filmmaker Werner Herzog, who frequently dives into falsehood in order to reveal a form of truth -- not the literal truth, but the dream world behind it.

Herzog has made all these crazy documentaries - on the surface, they may be about a topic like caves containing primordial human art, scientists living on antarctica, volcanoes... but they're all actually about the human spirit, and human dreams. His goal is to bring the audience to this moment of true wonder, true curiosity, true awe - and in service of that, he is willing to lie.

Herzog strongly opposes the school of Cinema Verite, which says the documentarist should be like this invisible observer, a hidden microphone, so that they can present reality as well as possible and not get their thumb in the shot.

Herzog thinks this is trash - (I get the sense he'd get along with Hunter S Thompson) he's gotten flack for some of his docs where he completely fabricates these little moments. Like, in his doc about the scientists in antartica, there's a scene where all the scientists have their ears pressed to the ground so that they can hear the sounds of the seals underneath the ice. Herzog edits in seal noises. But in truth, there were no seal noises... nobody heard anything that day. Or in one doc where he's following around this mentally unstable man, the man is shown to have an obsession with closing doors. But in reality, he doesn't actually care about doors - Herzog instructed him to do that, in order to help build the audience's sense of mystery around this "character" -- even though he's a real person and this is a documentary!

So it's interesting -- he creates these falsehoods in order to create this realistic dream, this enticing mystery.

At a film festival, Herzog was quoted saying : "I say here to adherents of cinéma-vérité: I am no bookkeeper; my mandate is poetry."

I want to be involved. I want to shape and sculpt, to stage things, to intrude and invent. I want to be a film director. I was the only person at the festival arguing against these morons. . . . I couldn't take it any longer. I grabbed a microphone and said, "I'm no fly on the wall. I am the hornet that stings." There was an immediate uproar, so not having anything more to say, I shouted out, "Happy New Year, losers." And that was that.

My larp friends and I have this joke based on detourning an inspirational sign -- our team slogan used to be

"STAND UP FOR WHAT'S RIGHT--
EVEN IF IT'S WRONG."


I also like that passage about humility -- the acceptance that what we know may be wrong, and it may turn to dust. Everything that you accept as real may become illusion one day - or vice versa. We can't act with full confidence - because we are probably cosmic shmucks who are living in a little toy house that we think is the whole universe.

That attitude is critical in both mysticism and scientific understanding - the ability to escape from the weak point in the existing model and discover or become something outside of it. That's the Discordian spirit too.

[Jackie]

Werner Herzog

The only thing I had heard of him was in relation to Pokémon Go. His work sounds quite... interesting. While I don't know if I'd favor a world where all documentaries are in his style, I think we're better off having some. I think that in a way, in being disonest he gains a different form of honesty, because no piece of media can truly be free of influence from its creator, and he's upfront about that.

EDIT: Also, are you the "Cram" that The Johnny had referred to?

[Cramulus]

What interests you about that passage, Jackie?

[Jackie]

It reminds me a lot of the section on the Aneristic Illusion from the Principia, which has always been one of my favorites. I love this kind of... stuff that kinda sounds like nonsense at first glance, but actually has insightful stuff somewhere. The similarity struck me after talking about Prequel (the source) to someone and Initiating someone in the same day, so I wanted to see what other Discordians thought, or if I was just grasping at straws.