The Functionality of the Black Iron Prison

[Cramulus]

My impression is that human decision making is not "free", it's usually predetermined by internal and environmental factors. What we think of as a decision is a predictable mechanical process, a simple quantitative comparison between rewards.

Impulses are in competition within the individual. One impulse wins and momentarily grabs the steering wheel--but the individual doesn't have any direct control over which one drives. Just like how you don't choose which food you most enjoy.


((The Melioration Principle: an organism will engage in a behavior until a competing behavior offers better rewards))


I also think it's possible for the mind to operate differently, to make decisions independently of genetics/conditioning/environmental factors -- but these occurrences are rare. And the mind is packed with distractions and associations and habits which discourage this from occurring. So in that sense, I agree that the physical universe is aligned against free will.

[chaotic neutral observer]

There's nothing magical about the human brain.

Prove it.

There are reams of evidence regarding the physical nature of the brain.  Physical damage to the head can cause personality changes; chemicals can alter mood; oxygen deprivation can cause brain death.
You, on the other hand, have no credible evidence for any magic or supernatural influences being involved.  People have been trying for decades, and found nothing.

[Doktor Howl]

My impression is that human decision making is not "free", it's usually predetermined by internal and environmental factors. What we think of as a decision is a predictable mechanical process, a simple quantitative comparison between rewards.

But I am a DUMBASS and I never think about consequences.

Dok,
Freedom through stupidity.

[tyrannosaurus vex]

it seems sort of useless to ascribe any attributes at all to any kind of reality or force that may or may not exist "outside" our ability to either perceive or imagine it. and while i am not strictly a reductionist, i don't see much point in imagining that anything at all exists that can't be measured or experienced in some kind of objectively meaningful way -- not because it's definitely not real, but because if it is real, it must be an absolutely subjective experience, and that precludes discussing it with anyone else in a way that conveys useful information about it. I mean, we could all go out into the woods and drink ayahuasca and it could seem like something mystical was happening, but whether such a thing did or didn't happen would ultimately be functionally meaningless.

As for free will, if it exists from our perspective, then it exists. Whether it "rEaLLy" exists from the perspective of some higher dimension or something isn't a constructive question. Unless you can tell the future, it doesn't matter. And if you can tell the future, then the only logical thing to do would be to give me the winning Powerball numbers for the next $100M+ drawing.

[altered]

I'm concerned that I've read this whole thing before, but I can't remember where or find any evidence.

It strikes me as something one of those European philosopher duders went over.

Not the dualism part, the rest of it.

[Hagtard Celine Dion Mustard]

You, on the other hand, have no credible evidence for any magic or supernatural influences being involved.

The only evidence I need is the miracle that I exist at all. What I don't have is evidence that anyone else exists. I only assume they do, since the alternative is a life of narcissistic nihilism. Even if I'm the only consciousness in this universe, I think I'd prefer to behave as if I'm not.

That, and I once had a friend prove to me that she could astrally project, so I'm pretty sure there's something funny going on underneath the surface of all this, whatever it is.

[Hagtard Celine Dion Mustard]

There's nothing magical about the human brain.

Prove it.

Dude, I didn't expect you, of all people, to jump on the anti-rationalism train.

Seems to me that the original claim was not rational. There may or may not be something magical about the human brain; there's no good reason to declare one or the other as true.

[Hagtard Celine Dion Mustard]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_problem_of_consciousness

[chaotic neutral observer]

You, on the other hand, have no credible evidence for any magic or supernatural influences being involved.

The only evidence I need is the miracle that I exist at all.

Your existence is not a miracle, and your wishful thinking does not count as evidence.

That, and I once had a friend prove to me that she could astrally project, so I'm pretty sure there's something funny going on underneath the surface of all this, whatever it is.

I expect that she set the conditions of the demonstration.

Further, I expect that she would be completely unable to use her "ability" to do something concrete and reproducible, like, for example, astral projecting into the next room and reading a random number that an impartial third party had written on a piece of paper.

[chaotic neutral observer]

There's nothing magical about the human brain.

Prove it.

Dude, I didn't expect you, of all people, to jump on the anti-rationalism train.

Seems to me that the original claim was not rational. There may or may not be something magical about the human brain; there's no good reason to declare one or the other as true.

I posted a good reason.  Anybody can confirm for themselves that the brain is affected by the physical world.  If the brain was magic, why would head trauma carry a risk of changing someone's personality?

[Frontside Back]

If we define magic as "shit that isn't understood well enough to be modeled", brain is clearly affected by both magical and physical world. That doesn't mean there isn't any underlying principles we can eventually figure out, I'm just saying we are not there yet and it would be foolish to think we are.

[Pergamos]

it seems sort of useless to ascribe any attributes at all to any kind of reality or force that may or may not exist "outside" our ability to either perceive or imagine it. and while i am not strictly a reductionist, i don't see much point in imagining that anything at all exists that can't be measured or experienced in some kind of objectively meaningful way -- not because it's definitely not real, but because if it is real, it must be an absolutely subjective experience, and that precludes discussing it with anyone else in a way that conveys useful information about it. I mean, we could all go out into the woods and drink ayahuasca and it could seem like something mystical was happening, but whether such a thing did or didn't happen would ultimately be functionally meaningless.

As for free will, if it exists from our perspective, then it exists. Whether it "rEaLLy" exists from the perspective of some higher dimension or something isn't a constructive question. Unless you can tell the future, it doesn't matter. And if you can tell the future, then the only logical thing to do would be to give me the winning Powerball numbers for the next $100M+ drawing.

Have you tried ayahuasca?  Because the something mystical really isn't meaningless, at least it wasn't for me or any of the folks I've talked to who did it,  it gave us insights into our lives and we put those insights into practice and changed things. 

Your point is good, I just don't like your example.

[chaotic neutral observer]

If we define magic as "shit that isn't understood well enough to be modeled", brain is clearly affected by both magical and physical world. That doesn't mean there isn't any underlying principles we can eventually figure out, I'm just saying we are not there yet and it would be foolish to think we are.

Let's not play around with the definition of magic (at least, not in this thread).  Science already allows for things to be not well understood yet, without invoking the mystical.

There is a significant distinction to be drawn between "we have a good idea of the basic science, but modelling the entire system is intractable at present" and "there's something ineffably mysterious going on that transcends mere physical reality, which we cannot, and never will, understand".

The OP brought up astral projection as an example of magic; that classification works for me.

[Cramulus]

it seems sort of useless to ascribe any attributes at all to any kind of reality or force that may or may not exist "outside" our ability to either perceive or imagine it. and while i am not strictly a reductionist, i don't see much point in imagining that anything at all exists that can't be measured or experienced in some kind of objectively meaningful way -- not because it's definitely not real, but because if it is real, it must be an absolutely subjective experience, and that precludes discussing it with anyone else in a way that conveys useful information about it. I mean, we could all go out into the woods and drink ayahuasca and it could seem like something mystical was happening, but whether such a thing did or didn't happen would ultimately be functionally meaningless.

As for free will, if it exists from our perspective, then it exists. Whether it "rEaLLy" exists from the perspective of some higher dimension or something isn't a constructive question. Unless you can tell the future, it doesn't matter. And if you can tell the future, then the only logical thing to do would be to give me the winning Powerball numbers for the next $100M+ drawing.

Have you tried ayahuasca?  Because the something mystical really isn't meaningless, at least it wasn't for me or any of the folks I've talked to who did it,  it gave us insights into our lives and we put those insights into practice and changed things. 

Your point is good, I just don't like your example.

I agree - even a purely subjective inner experience can be meaningful for me or others

and maybe we can't discuss that thing in perfectly objective terms, so our language gets muddy and metaphored

but to then say "therefore you can't convey useful information", and "therefore it's meaningless and pointless to talk about" ---  is a big leap



The position that only objective, measurable things are worth discussing is scientism.

[Hagtard Celine Dion Mustard]

I expect that she set the conditions of the demonstration.

Your expectations are incorrect.

Your existence is not a miracle

Nothing can explain the fact of my subjective experience. I think miracle is a fairly accurate word.

Let's not play around with the definition of magic

How we agree on the definition of this word is extremely important to any debate in which we engage. If you assume that everyone else is using it with your own definition in mind, miscommunication is inevitable.

In this case, I would say magic is anything that would defy our current understandings of the physical universe.

You seem to have a stubborn resolve that free will of any measure either doesn't or can't exist, which is more or less irrelevant to my initial post. It might as well be a thread about Star Wars where you come in and proclaim that you don't watch Star Wars movies. I'm not terribly interested in debating free will; my understanding of the Black Iron Prison presumes it.