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The Functionality of the Black Iron Prison

Started by Hagtard Celine Dion Mustard, January 07, 2020, 01:41:30 PM

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Cramulus

Elvis, would you say that free will is unique to humans? or do animals have it too?


Hagtard Celine Dion Mustard

#46
Quote from: chaotic neutral observer on January 08, 2020, 02:41:41 PM
Quote from: Reverend Elvis Pope Pelvis on January 08, 2020, 01:25:22 PM
QuoteI expect that she set the conditions of the demonstration.

Your expectations are incorrect.
Prove it.

They're incorrect because I'm the one who set the rules of the experiment. I'm not posting this to convince anyone else of whether or not astral projection is real, I'm saying that my personal experience with it justifies my own opinions that the world around me might not entirely conform to current academic descriptions. Even without this experience, it would be a little silly to assume that it does due to the massive amount of information we lack about it.

People who suggest that if it hasn't been proven by professional scientists then it isn't or can't be true are making an argument from ignorance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

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If there is no free will, then does your original post still make sense?

Probably not.

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Your initial assumptions are not beyond question.

And I'm not interested in deconstructing the entire premise based on a debate that still hasn't been settled. In my opinion, derailing the thread to become mired into an argument about whether or not free will can exist is a pointless and unending waste of time. It's a tired conversation that can't possibly be resolved, and it's a complete distraction from what I actually dusted myself of to come back here and talk about.
"I never thought of shaving my beard and freeing the slaves, but I thought of shaving the slaves and freeing my beard!"
~ Abrahaham Lincololn

Hagtard Celine Dion Mustard

Quote from: Cramulus on January 08, 2020, 08:31:10 PM
Elvis, would you say that free will is unique to humans? or do animals have it too?

Humans are animals.

My understanding of free will is any amount of self-deterministic influence over one's own actions or behavior. If we have it (and I think it's a paradox to think we don't), then it almost certainly exists on a spectrum and has obstacles. Genetics, environment, brain structure, and all other behavioral influences act as impediments.

If you view other people as robots to perform behavioral experiments on in order to attempt to predict their actions, then you're essentially confirming a bias that free will is nowhere to be found, because the experiments you're performing aren't looking for it or considering it as a factor. But "free will" is not something you'll ever find in another person; it's not something you'll find outside yourself.

Free will is entirely mine to experience, and whether or not anyone else believes that I have it is of no consequence to me.
"I never thought of shaving my beard and freeing the slaves, but I thought of shaving the slaves and freeing my beard!"
~ Abrahaham Lincololn

Faust

There is a point to that.
The human decision making is a methodology, taking the inputs of background, electrochemistry, genetics history of events up until now, physiological sensory information etc, fully mapped out should make a person predictable. But it's hard to experimentally say that that predictability is 100 percent, even if you know all of the inputs and how they fit together.
As long as there is the smallest possibility that the decision would go the other way for no reason at all, free will is possible just remote and unlikely
Sleepless nights at the chateau

chaotic neutral observer

Quote from: Reverend Elvis Pope Pelvis on January 09, 2020, 12:40:06 AM
Quote from: chaotic neutral observer on January 08, 2020, 02:41:41 PM
Quote from: Reverend Elvis Pope Pelvis on January 08, 2020, 01:25:22 PM
QuoteI expect that she set the conditions of the demonstration.

Your expectations are incorrect.
Prove it.

They're incorrect because I'm the one who set the rules of the experiment.
...and these rules were...what, exactly?
You're the one who brought up this astral projection thing as evidence of the supernatural, but you seem to be studiously avoiding providing any details.  I'm not asking you to prove that you've convinced yourself of something, I'm asking for evidence that anyone can examine and test.

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I'm not posting this to convince anyone else of whether or not astral projection is real, I'm saying that my personal experience with it justifies my own opinions that the world around me might not entirely conform to current academic descriptions.
Well of course the world doesn't entirely conform to current academic descriptions.  Science isn't complete.  It doesn't claim to be.  It probably never will be.  Why do you think theories are progressively refined (or abandoned!) as our understanding of the world develops?

But you don't get to use "well, we don't know everything" as a basis for lending credulity to claims which don't reflect reality.

Skipping back a bit:
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In this case, I would say magic is anything that would defy our current understandings of the physical universe.
When science encounters a phenomenon that defies our current understandings of the universe, we update our understanding of the universe to accommodate the phenomenon.  Lightning used to be "magic", and now it's described by physics.  Psychic phenomena used to be "magic", and now it's dismissed as fakery and self-delusion.


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People who suggest that if it hasn't been proven by professional scientists then it isn't or can't be true are making an argument from ignorance.
I haven't made that suggestion, nor would I.  Science is a process for understanding the world; it does not define the world.  However, if people have tested for something repeatedly, and found no evidence for it, that is its own kind of evidence.  For example, astral projection isn't real, and there's currently no basis for believing the brain is anything more than a physical instrument.

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And I'm not interested in deconstructing the entire premise based on a debate that still hasn't been settled. In my opinion, derailing the thread to become mired into an argument about whether or not free will can exist is a pointless and unending waste of time. It's a tired conversation that can't possibly be resolved, and it's a complete distraction from what I actually dusted myself of to come back here and talk about.
As far as I can tell, the crux of your original post was the conflict between determinism and free will.  If you didn't come here to talk about that, what kind of discussion did you intend to provoke?
Desine fata deum flecti sperare precando.

Doktor Howl

I just wanna know why this is in the food section.   :lulz:
Molon Lube

Hagtard Celine Dion Mustard

#51
Quote from: Doktor Howl on January 09, 2020, 02:32:15 AM
I just wanna know why this is in the food section.   :lulz:

Either because it's a recipe for disaster, or I was subconsciously coerced by alcohol intoxication to feign an act against a deterministic construct.

I think my original analogy for the shape of the solid, four-dimensional universe was going to be a baked cake.

Hypercake?
"I never thought of shaving my beard and freeing the slaves, but I thought of shaving the slaves and freeing my beard!"
~ Abrahaham Lincololn

Hagtard Celine Dion Mustard

#52
Quote from: chaotic neutral observer on January 09, 2020, 02:20:18 AM
...and these rules were...what, exactly?
You're the one who brought up this astral projection thing as evidence of the supernatural.

As a throwaway example of personal experience being all that it takes to be sufficiently convincing - or, in my case, to provide enough doubt about the assumption that anything not documented in a public-school science textbook can't possibly be real and should be dismissed if it doesn't meet certain (and possibly arbitrary) standards.

After all, as far as I know, my own experience is the only one that matters. From my point of view, I'm the player in the game.

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But you don't get to use "well, we don't know everything" as a basis for lending credulity to claims which don't reflect reality.

Which reality? Mine, or yours? Do you have a reality? Scientific consensus? What happens when Plato's Cave is a library where all the books are written by one author? What happens when my own experiences defy the conclusions the average person would reach when reading Wikipedia?

Perhaps the real reason there aren't any "documented cases" of astral projection being proven real are because the tests are run by a grand conspiracy of military-class Illuminati warlocks whose nefarious purpose is to eliminate from the world those participants which can prove their powers.

Or maybe my friend was a con-artist who went through a lot of trouble to capitalize on my curiosity and had a Sherlock Holmes-level of Asperger's and could predict in ridiculous detail the events that would unfold as I set the experiment up.

Who knows? Is going into detail about this mostly-inconsequential example pertinent to the discussion, or is it just another distraction from it? Does this series of distractions match up with my description of an existential jail actively attempting to prevent deviations of exactly this kind of thinking?

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When science encounters a phenomenon that defies our current understandings of the universe, we update our understanding of the universe to accommodate the phenomenon.

As I have tried to do. I don't speak for "science"... (Whatever that is, really - does anyone know? Can I send an e-mail to science?) Only myself. Science didn't experience my phenomenon; I did. (And I did it through science, albeit not science so rigorous it would have threatened the friendship. It was a friendly experiment, but scientific enough that I was personally satisfied.)

The test was simple: project into a room never before seen or visited, and read the contents of a sheet of paper in a specific location in that room. The test was only performed once, but passed.

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As far as I can tell, the crux of your original post was the conflict between determinism and free will.  If you didn't come here to talk about that, what kind of discussion did you intend to provoke?

Who here is an agent of determinism, and who an asset of free will? How can I know? Does it matter?

Does anyone really believe in the Black Iron Prison? What's the point of getting out of jail if escaping it was never your own choice to begin with?
"I never thought of shaving my beard and freeing the slaves, but I thought of shaving the slaves and freeing my beard!"
~ Abrahaham Lincololn

Frontside Back

Determinism and free will are both stupid concepts. Much more relevant question is what you'll have for lunch tomorrow.

We are (mostly) human beings with very limited scope of physical and temporal existence. In our narrow slice of everything, we have processes that can said to be predetermined, but also some we are able to affect. In the end you just wanna know about a deterministic course of events early enough to use your free will to get the upper hand.

In hindsight, every mistake I made was deterministic and couldn't have been avoided, while every success was made possible by my choice of doing the right thing at the right time. This keeps my ego afloat.
"I want to be the Borg but I want to do it alone."

The Wizard Joseph

I find that the question of free will or determinism is in the end a difference that makes no difference. I experience what would seem in every way to be the ability to freely exercise my will and make decisions of my own. If this is truly not actually the case I have no means no percieve or even meaningfully conceptualize that reality, and so am obliged to act as though my decisions are freely made.

I no longer fidget with the question much, but do enjoy listening to others kick it around from time to time. I do have one bit of theological ponderance though. If God is all powerful, then would it not be a test or even sort of backhanded demonstration of that unlimited power to choose not to act and so allow freedom for wills other than Your Own? Would such self imposed restraint be necessary for there to be a genuine "Other" person for God to have a meaningful relationship with that went beyond essentially telling smart robots what to do?

For God so loved the world that He bloody well kept His hands out of it?
You can't get out backward.  You have to go forward to go back.. better press on! - Willie Wonka, PBUH

Life can be seen as a game with no reset button, no extra lives, and if the power goes out there is no restarting.  If that's all you see life as you are not long for this world, and never will get it.

"Ayn Rand never swung a hammer in her life and had serious dominance issues" - The Fountainhead

"World domination is such an ugly phrase. I prefer to call it world optimisation."
- Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality :lulz:

"You program the controller to do the thing, only it doesn't do the thing.  It does something else entirely, or nothing at all.  It's like voting."
- Billy, Aug 21st, 2019

"It's not even chaos anymore. It's BANAL."
- Doktor Hamish Howl

Cramulus

#55
Quote from: Reverend Elvis Pope Pelvis on January 09, 2020, 04:07:18 AM
Does anyone really believe in the Black Iron Prison? What's the point of getting out of jail if escaping it was never your own choice to begin with?

I think the recognition of the prison & the decision to escape is a solid example of free will

I think you and I understand free will in different terms, but I more or less agree with your OP - that the universe discourages free will

If organic life is a collective organism, it's an organism that is confused, trapped in habit, and struggling (& often unwilling) to wake up.
This can be felt in our own lives.


Cramulus


Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on January 09, 2020, 11:13:44 AM
I find that the question of free will or determinism is in the end a difference that makes no difference. I experience what would seem in every way to be the ability to freely exercise my will and make decisions of my own. If this is truly not actually the case I have no means no percieve or even meaningfully conceptualize that reality, and so am obliged to act as though my decisions are freely made.

As an experiment, I might offer this - maybe it's not binary, 0 or 1, determinism or free will - maybe it's a scale, and some of your decisions are automatic and some are not.

Observing your mind as you make decisions under different circumstances, maybe you can sense this gradient.

Might be worth a try.

QuoteIf God is all powerful, then would it not be a test or even sort of backhanded demonstration of that unlimited power to choose not to act and so allow freedom for wills other than Your Own? Would such self imposed restraint be necessary for there to be a genuine "Other" person for God to have a meaningful relationship with that went beyond essentially telling smart robots what to do?

For God so loved the world that He bloody well kept His hands out of it?

I don't want to get too esoteric here, but if god is the Alpha and Omega, the A-Z of existence, the entire chalupa and the taco bell tissue paper too, then God is something that's both internal and external. And I think this means that we can understand ourselves as facets of God, components of God, as thoughts and impulses in God's head. And if this is true then God is very confused, wracked with inner conflict, and trying to wake up. And if we can wake up, then God can too. Our own efforts to overcome automatism and sleep are a service to each other, and to the cosmos.

chaotic neutral observer

Quote from: Reverend Elvis Pope Pelvis on January 09, 2020, 04:07:18 AM
Quote from: chaotic neutral observer on January 09, 2020, 02:20:18 AM
...and these rules were...what, exactly?
You're the one who brought up this astral projection thing as evidence of the supernatural.

As a throwaway example of personal experience being all that it takes to be sufficiently convincing - or, in my case, to provide enough doubt about the assumption that anything not documented in a public-school science textbook can't possibly be real and should be dismissed if it doesn't meet certain (and possibly arbitrary) standards.
I don't need evidence of astral projection to question what I read in textbooks.  Who the hell treats a public-school textbook as gospel truth?  The damn things are probably years out of date, and riddled with errors.  I think you might be jousting with a straw-man, here.  Science is not a static thing that you capture in textbooks, it's a process.

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After all, as far as I know, my own experience is the only one that matters. From my point of view, I'm the player in the game.
Everyone's.  Experience.  Matters.

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But you don't get to use "well, we don't know everything" as a basis for lending credulity to claims which don't reflect reality.

Which reality? Mine, or yours?
There is only one reality, which we perceive imperfectly.  It's the reality where gravity pulls things down, smartphones work most of the time, and I have failed, yet again, to find evidence of the gnomes living above the ceiling tiles.

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Perhaps the real reason there aren't any "documented cases" of astral projection being proven real are because the tests are run by a grand conspiracy of military-class Illuminati warlocks whose nefarious purpose is to eliminate from the world those participants which can prove their powers.
You ran one of those tests.  Are you a military-class Illuminati warlock?

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Does this series of distractions match up with my description of an existential jail actively attempting to prevent deviations of exactly this kind of thinking?
Yes, it does match up.  Quite nicely, really.

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The test was simple: project into a room never before seen or visited, and read the contents of a sheet of paper in a specific location in that room. The test was only performed once, but passed.
If she wrote the contents of the paper down in silence, I would consider that extremely interesting.  If, however, she reported the contents of the paper verbally to someone who already knew what was written, I would dismiss it as cold reading.

But bluntly, your apparent lack of curiosity here baffles me.  You only ran the test once?  If someone showed me evidence of astral projection, I would be as curious as fuck.  I'd want to test that repeatedly, under many different conditions.  The consequences would be world-shattering.  It would transform our understanding of reality.
Desine fata deum flecti sperare precando.

chaotic neutral observer

Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on January 09, 2020, 11:13:44 AM
I find that the question of free will or determinism is in the end a difference that makes no difference. I experience what would seem in every way to be the ability to freely exercise my will and make decisions of my own. If this is truly not actually the case I have no means no percieve or even meaningfully conceptualize that reality, and so am obliged to act as though my decisions are freely made.
I consider this viewpoint to be the correct one.
Desine fata deum flecti sperare precando.

LMNO

How many more times must we have the "god is in the gaps" argument?