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Thought Club

Started by The Wizard Joseph, February 03, 2020, 01:43:50 AM

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Cramulus

Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on February 04, 2020, 10:30:04 PM
Quote

To do anything but roll over and accept the cards you've been dealt, the situation you're in, the person you've become -- that's madness

I presume from what I think I know of you that this is a typo or misstatement. You are otherwise advocating for this mad complacency in such things. Am I wrong?

You said it was madness to try to change anything so much larger than you. I'm not advocating complacency, I'm advocating that same madness.

Today I am reflecting on the Tragedy of the Commons, the sheer insanity of trying to do anything in this world when its entire weight is stacked against you. Like, does it matter if you vote? does it matter if you get into random arguments with friends and strangers on social media? How can you tell which impossible tasks are worth it and which ones aren't? it's a good question to keep in the front pocket




Quote from: Joe
Quote
first and foremost, I'm just trying to be a real person - that is, not just an empty vessel, or a parrot, that just repeats whatever sharpnel I absorbed from my environment this year. Someone with agency, who can make decisions, and not just kneejerk reactions.

Why are you trying to be what you objectively already are? You are already a real person. Are you seeking to become "more real"? Are those not on your cognitive and spiritual level these "empty parrots" you seem to fear being? If not all people can be said to be such then at what point are they endowed beyond that somehow? They are EXACTLY as real as you are if anyone can be said to be so. Is this not the same essential derision behind the common vernacular "sheeple"?

By doing these regular self-observation exercises over the course of the last four years, one of things I've discovered about my conscious experience is that it has different grades of quality.

And the thing is, I don't think consciousness is truly continuous... There are parts of the self that operate just fine without it. Most of the time, the self is running on a kind of autopilot which doesn't require the participation of consciousness. Body functions are automatic. Trains of mental association depart the station automatically. You can rely on established problem-solving heuristics without doing any new thinking. Most thoughts and behaviors in any given day are a function of internalized habits, firmly established associations. And it can become a kind of prison, one that you're seldom even aware of.

Consciousness only appears every so often. Like a pilot who makes a few decisions, then flips on autopilot. He's really only "flying the plane" during takeoffs and landings. The everyday mental experience is a kind of sleep. The comfortable state of the mind is habit.

When consciousness participates, reality has a different quality. Everything is more vivid. You can form a clear memory of that moment. It feels like someone is in the driver's seat. Your body is inhabited by something, and through that, you feel alive.

The awareness of this gradient of consciousness has been a breath of fresh air in my life. I strive to let this consciousness participate in my being, my presence. It's increased my empathy and love, reduced my tolerance for bullshit, challenged me, helped me overcome habituation, and come face to face with my faults. To me, that's living in reality instead of a dream. That's being real.

All of this is expressed in the title of the final book Gurdjieff wrote: Life is Real Only Then, when "I Am"





QuoteYou seem to be trying to save yourself. I strongly suspect that this is a vestigial remnant of the Christianity I believe you once said you used to hold. Absent a separate saviour figure you have seemingly taken the burden of this saving upon yourself needlessly.

if I was working on myself using physical exercise, would you judge me as being on some christian trip? ((with a smirk, I visualize someone going to a gym and asking a weight lifter 'so you think you're better than everybody, huh?'))

is everybody who works on themselves actually doing a pointless jackoff exercise as an echo of christian upbringing?



QuoteThere are no such things as saviours, and nothing that needs such a thing.

The thing about the black iron prison is that you don't need to escape from it--your cell is comfortable, and decorated just how you like. You can spend your whole life there. It has cable.


The Wizard Joseph

Strange. I know that I posted a thought here Friday before going in to work. It seems to have totally up and disappeared
Which is WEIRD because I was talking about 0 as a natural number.

I can't say I know what happened. Maybe I failed to tap butfons correctly and it didn't post. My phone needs to charge and I to sleep. I'll try to figure it out tomorrow.
You can't get out backward.  You have to go forward to go back.. better press on! - Willie Wonka, PBUH

Life can be seen as a game with no reset button, no extra lives, and if the power goes out there is no restarting.  If that's all you see life as you are not long for this world, and never will get it.

"Ayn Rand never swung a hammer in her life and had serious dominance issues" - The Fountainhead

"World domination is such an ugly phrase. I prefer to call it world optimisation."
- Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality :lulz:

"You program the controller to do the thing, only it doesn't do the thing.  It does something else entirely, or nothing at all.  It's like voting."
- Billy, Aug 21st, 2019

"It's not even chaos anymore. It's BANAL."
- Doktor Hamish Howl

The Wizard Joseph

Alright I think this is a potentially awesome thing and FINALLY have some free time to re attempt the thought I failed to post. At this point due to some horrible circumstances in my life I have tacitly conceded to Cramulus, but I would like to still have my say.

The first thing I would like to say is that I explicitly conceded in my first write up attempt. The initial paradox I used rather provocatively resolves itself under The Rules. If nothing is conscious then there's no, there can NEVER BE, meaning and so for all purposes here we must presume the opposite.

Cogito ergo sum
Said some one

So the Cosmos IS in fact conscious, and by extension vastly conscious beyond the pale,
Through sheer scale.
What could possibly add to it?
You
You CAN do it.

A limitless expanse of universal consciousness that we may preside in can in fact become even more conscious as you raise your own, and through this others', consciousness. Each conscious being buffs the total "capacitance" of the universal consciousness as well as providing a unique individual perspective of the collective Being.

In this realization I feel that I owe Cram an apology for coming @him all sideways with a paradox of obliteration.

Sorry Cramulus
You know
I love you

As for HOW we may explain such a thing as an origin of consciousness "ex nihilo" in our universe I propose a tweak to fundamental math and two NEW irrational numbers necessary for explaining how zero can be a natural number and somehow connect to 1 And the rest of the number line.

0: true zero
As a natural number Zero represents an absolutely infinite potential so vast that literally ANYTHING can fit in it. It is all of the potential numbers that are "not" that surround any given number line. There needs to a number that can somehow initiate the arbitrary act of definition out of True Zero and connect it without integers to 1. Please allow me to introduce...

~0: not zero with a value of 0.000..infinit...00~0 it is the smallest possible real number, the Higgs boson of mathematics if you will. Within the infinite expanse of zero there are an equally infinite number of potential points from which to draw forth the numbers necessary to any arbitrary line. The moment that a conscious Arbiter begins to make contact, like drawing a line in sand you must have a first point of disturbed sand, this ~0, one among an infinite potential set of such, is "activated". Yet we still cannot "fill" the gap from 0 to 1. We need another irrational number to represent the fullness of the capacity just before 0 becomes 1

¡0: "Blam" with a value of .999...
¡0 is a number representing the largest possible number before reaching 1. It represents the infinite capacity between 0 and 1 nearly full. There is an ancient number paradox that illustrates this a bit and resolves.
1/3= .333...
2/3= .666...
3/3= 1, not ¡0... Why?
Because ~0 naturally carries and hides within the irrational numbers at their "end".

~0 + ¡0 = 1

Once you have 1 you can have ALL the rest.

0, ~0, ¡0, 1, 2, 3
With 3 you can have geometry! Out of nothing
Our entire universe may thusly be described as a finger drawing in the sand the line of spacetime we call ALL THINGS.

There's also, mystically, an inverse Trinity here hidden behind the obvious 1, 2, 3. The implications of THAT I will leave to other thinkers because it gives me CHILLS thinking that it could just be a description of God with It's pants down, so to speak.
You can't get out backward.  You have to go forward to go back.. better press on! - Willie Wonka, PBUH

Life can be seen as a game with no reset button, no extra lives, and if the power goes out there is no restarting.  If that's all you see life as you are not long for this world, and never will get it.

"Ayn Rand never swung a hammer in her life and had serious dominance issues" - The Fountainhead

"World domination is such an ugly phrase. I prefer to call it world optimisation."
- Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality :lulz:

"You program the controller to do the thing, only it doesn't do the thing.  It does something else entirely, or nothing at all.  It's like voting."
- Billy, Aug 21st, 2019

"It's not even chaos anymore. It's BANAL."
- Doktor Hamish Howl

LMNO

I still think your initial premise is doing a LOT of heavy lifting, but I see where you're going.

The Wizard Joseph

Quote from: LMNO on February 25, 2020, 01:28:41 PM
I still think your initial premise is doing a LOT of heavy lifting, but I see where you're going.

Please explain. Yes, this means you and I are now thinking!
You can't get out backward.  You have to go forward to go back.. better press on! - Willie Wonka, PBUH

Life can be seen as a game with no reset button, no extra lives, and if the power goes out there is no restarting.  If that's all you see life as you are not long for this world, and never will get it.

"Ayn Rand never swung a hammer in her life and had serious dominance issues" - The Fountainhead

"World domination is such an ugly phrase. I prefer to call it world optimisation."
- Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality :lulz:

"You program the controller to do the thing, only it doesn't do the thing.  It does something else entirely, or nothing at all.  It's like voting."
- Billy, Aug 21st, 2019

"It's not even chaos anymore. It's BANAL."
- Doktor Hamish Howl

LMNO

QuoteIf nothing is conscious then there's no, there can NEVER BE, meaning and so for all purposes here we must presume the opposite.

Cogito ergo sum
Said some one

So the Cosmos IS in fact conscious, and by extension vastly conscious beyond the pale,
Through sheer scale.

This bit.  You're going from "Only consciousness can derive meaning" to "The universe is conscious".

How do you escape the Absurdist pitfall, where "meaning" is an arbitrary value consciousness places upon the random, stochastic behavior of the universe?  In this scenario, "Meaning" becomes the Aneristic Delusion.

The Wizard Joseph

Quote from: LMNO on February 25, 2020, 03:45:32 PM
QuoteIf nothing is conscious then there's no, there can NEVER BE, meaning and so for all purposes here we must presume the opposite.

Cogito ergo sum
Said some one

So the Cosmos IS in fact conscious, and by extension vastly conscious beyond the pale,
Through sheer scale.

This bit.  You're going from "Only consciousness can derive meaning" to "The universe is conscious".

How do you escape the Absurdist pitfall, where "meaning" is an arbitrary value consciousness places upon the random, stochastic behavior of the universe?  In this scenario, "Meaning" becomes the Aneristic Delusion.

You don't escape it at all. The comos contains both Absurdity and Reason even as a number line of any arbitrary length contains an infinite number of rational and irrational numbers.
You can't get out backward.  You have to go forward to go back.. better press on! - Willie Wonka, PBUH

Life can be seen as a game with no reset button, no extra lives, and if the power goes out there is no restarting.  If that's all you see life as you are not long for this world, and never will get it.

"Ayn Rand never swung a hammer in her life and had serious dominance issues" - The Fountainhead

"World domination is such an ugly phrase. I prefer to call it world optimisation."
- Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality :lulz:

"You program the controller to do the thing, only it doesn't do the thing.  It does something else entirely, or nothing at all.  It's like voting."
- Billy, Aug 21st, 2019

"It's not even chaos anymore. It's BANAL."
- Doktor Hamish Howl

LMNO

I still don't think you've made your case for a cosmic consciousness, though.

The Wizard Joseph

Quote from: LMNO on February 25, 2020, 03:50:27 PM
I still don't think you've made your case for a cosmic consciousness, though.

If nothing else I would say that even if I'm wrong, and I don't believe that I AM, then WE ARE that consciousness as well as every other living creature and every object bearing the marks of such consciousness.

I merely assert that consciousness is present throughout the cosmos. It's not an unrealistic assertion. We are literally the evidence of it.
You can't get out backward.  You have to go forward to go back.. better press on! - Willie Wonka, PBUH

Life can be seen as a game with no reset button, no extra lives, and if the power goes out there is no restarting.  If that's all you see life as you are not long for this world, and never will get it.

"Ayn Rand never swung a hammer in her life and had serious dominance issues" - The Fountainhead

"World domination is such an ugly phrase. I prefer to call it world optimisation."
- Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality :lulz:

"You program the controller to do the thing, only it doesn't do the thing.  It does something else entirely, or nothing at all.  It's like voting."
- Billy, Aug 21st, 2019

"It's not even chaos anymore. It's BANAL."
- Doktor Hamish Howl

Doktor Howl

Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on February 25, 2020, 04:16:20 PM
Quote from: LMNO on February 25, 2020, 03:50:27 PM
I still don't think you've made your case for a cosmic consciousness, though.

If nothing else I would say that even if I'm wrong, and I don't believe that I AM, then WE ARE that consciousness as well as every other living creature and every object bearing the marks of such consciousness.

I merely assert that consciousness is present throughout the cosmos. It's not an unrealistic assertion. We are literally the evidence of it.

This is where the barstool shows up.
Molon Lube

Doktor Howl

We are merely evidence that "good enough" drives natural selection.  Has nothing at all to do with consciousness.
Molon Lube

Cramulus

Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on February 25, 2020, 01:16:35 PM
In this realization I feel that I owe Cram an apology for coming @him all sideways with a paradox of obliteration.

Sorry Cramulus
You know
I love you

No apology needed, friendo!

I knew where you were coming from, and we all know that the best ideas deserve opposition. No offense taken at all, and I appreciate the sparring.


chaotic neutral observer

I don't intend to derail (much), but what happens if I divide the smallest possible real number by 2? Wouldn't that number be smaller yet?

Consider that lim(x), x->0 and lim(x/2), x->0 both take you to the same place (zero), just at different speeds.
Desine fata deum flecti sperare precando.

Doktor Howl

Quote from: chaotic neutral observer on February 25, 2020, 04:57:13 PM
I don't intend to derail (much), but what happens if I divide the smallest possible real number by 2? Wouldn't that number be smaller yet?

Consider that lim(x), x->0 and lim(x/2), x->0 both take you to the same place (zero), just at different speeds.

Well, they take you asymptotically closer to zero, at any rate.
Molon Lube

The Wizard Joseph

Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on February 03, 2020, 10:12:53 PM
Rules of Thought Club

1 You do not think about Thought Club.

2 YOU DO NOT THINK ABOUT THOUGHT CLUB!

3 There are no winners in Thought Club, just a bunch of losers thinking as hard as they can. It is by no means such a silly thing as structured debate. If someone explicitly concedes or tacitly concedes by not replying within 2 days, shitting the bed entirely by spitting word salad (poetry is ok but must be meaningfully coherent), any provable plagiarism, brazen copypasta of what has already been said in a thought, and/or resorting to ad hominem statements that are not both supported by observation within the chain of the thought and also creative in expression the thought is over. Continuing to reply is unnecessary, against these rules, and the thinker who so concedes effectively has the last word in their admission of total defeat. Once a thought chain has ended it must not be replied to by anyone at all, even to "bump" it for amusement. It is finished.

4 Only two thinkers may reply in a chain of thought and only one such chain may be active at a time until one of the thinkers effectively concedes.

5 Paradoxical or irrational but coherent statements and other such ontological tomfoolery is allowed, but if it results in any kind of infinite recursion entrapping either or both thinkers or effectively obliterates all meaning the thought is over, you asshole. Both thinkers have effectively been forced to concede if the paradox cannot be resolved in one reply.

6 No kibitzing. Thinkers not involved in the active chain of reply may not reply to it or post words intended to be directly relevant to it. Ideally uninvolved thinkers will not post words at all. Feel free to wordlessly post emotes so you can thusly hoot and holler incoherently in encouragement or wince at a thinker getting that ass beat, but do not post it in reply to the active chain of thought. If necessary these rules may be reposted not more frequently than once per page as a reminder of this. Continuing disruptive posts will be split to the "Unlimited Garbage From The Wizard Joseph" thread, they are his now, and the last point in the active chain reposted as needed.

7 Thoughts will go on as long as they have to.

8 If this is your first night at Thought Club, you have to think.

*Ahem*

Don't make me beg prostate before the mods for justice here.
:lulz:    :lulz:    :lulz: :lulz:    :lulz: :lulz: :lulz:

Quote from: Doktor Howl on February 25, 2020, 04:18:30 PM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on February 25, 2020, 04:16:20 PM
Quote from: LMNO on February 25, 2020, 03:50:27 PM
I still don't think you've made your case for a cosmic consciousness, though.

If nothing else I would say that even if I'm wrong, and I don't believe that I AM, then WE ARE that consciousness as well as every other living creature and every object bearing the marks of such consciousness.

I merely assert that consciousness is present throughout the cosmos. It's not an unrealistic assertion. We are literally the evidence of it.

This is where the barstool shows up.

:regret:
You can't get out backward.  You have to go forward to go back.. better press on! - Willie Wonka, PBUH

Life can be seen as a game with no reset button, no extra lives, and if the power goes out there is no restarting.  If that's all you see life as you are not long for this world, and never will get it.

"Ayn Rand never swung a hammer in her life and had serious dominance issues" - The Fountainhead

"World domination is such an ugly phrase. I prefer to call it world optimisation."
- Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality :lulz:

"You program the controller to do the thing, only it doesn't do the thing.  It does something else entirely, or nothing at all.  It's like voting."
- Billy, Aug 21st, 2019

"It's not even chaos anymore. It's BANAL."
- Doktor Hamish Howl