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You know what I always say? "Always kill the mouthy one", that's what I always say.

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Thought Club

Started by The Wizard Joseph, February 03, 2020, 01:43:50 AM

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chaotic neutral observer

Quote from: Doktor Howl on February 25, 2020, 05:03:30 PM
Well, they take you asymptotically closer to zero, at any rate.
Yes, that was a bad choice of wording on my part.  ...actually, I'm not sure exactly what I was trying to say, with that second bit.  It seemed to make sense at the time.
Desine fata deum flecti sperare precando.

LMNO

Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on February 25, 2020, 04:16:20 PM
Quote from: LMNO on February 25, 2020, 03:50:27 PM
I still don't think you've made your case for a cosmic consciousness, though.

If nothing else I would say that even if I'm wrong, and I don't believe that I AM, then WE ARE that consciousness as well as every other living creature and every object bearing the marks of such consciousness.

I merely assert that consciousness is present throughout the cosmos. It's not an unrealistic assertion. We are literally the evidence of it.

Point of order: I know that precisely One (1) consciousness exists in the universe: mine.

To prevent the inevitable insanity the conclusion of this line of thinking leads to, I prefer to assume pointillist consciousness in others, based upon no definitive proof whatsoever.  The universe I experience tends to favor this approach.

It does not, to me, necessarily lead to the conclusion that the universe is conscious.

Doktor Howl

Quote from: LMNO on February 25, 2020, 07:18:56 PM

Point of order: I know that precisely One (1) consciousness exists in the universe: mine.


That's just what they want you to think.
Molon Lube

Frontside Back

I had a thought about the subject.

First I'll try to define consciousness by its negation. As most of us can agree, there's both conscious and unconscious processes in a human being. Processes which are said to be unconcious are characterised by either repetition, like in breathing, hearbeats, falling asleep etc. or causality like when you get hit by a hammer and flinch. Unconscious processes can be thought of as the ones ran by known rules. You/the universe knows what happens next, it's boring, there's nothing to observe. Conscious in the other hand is characterized by being playful, undeterministic and weird (i might be biased here). To stray from the known path you have to be conscious, same for the universe.

This sadly means that life is way less conscious if this isn't the first time around.

Most can also agree that even the most dull minded human is more conscious than a rock  an amobea or even a chicken. Let us then consider a combined system of a human and a stone. Stone has now become a part of an conscious system. Even if by itself largely unconscious, a person-stone system can extend its reach through a nearby window. Likewise I'd argue that this planet as a whole is largely conscious. There's just so much happening. New patterns arise constantly with no end in sight.

Another question is if solar system as a whole is conscious. There is communication between planets. Couple neurons are firing but I'm unsure if that qualifies consciousness yet. You could say that solar system is waking up. What's interesting to me is when the solar system finally reaches the state where it becomes conscious, will there be any left on earth, or has the planet succumbed to unconscious routine.

Now to tackle the whole universe. Largely universe seems to consist of routine. Orbital mechanics, formation of stars and other stuff seems to run on same rules it has for a long while. There is points where universe seems to improvise, neutron stars, black holes, weird dark matter interactions, life. Boundary regions seem to be a place where universe goes nuts and actually does something new and interesting. They are just way too tiny part of it. Saying that universe is conscious would be like pouring a shot of vodka to a barrel of water and claiming it to be an alcoholic beverage. 
"I want to be the Borg but I want to do it alone."

LMNO

QuoteLet us then consider a combined system of a human and a stone. Stone has now become a part of an conscious system.  Even if by itself largely unconscious, a person-stone system can extend its reach through a nearby window.
QuoteLikewise I'd argue that this planet as a whole is largely conscious.

Hold up.


In the first part, you're saying the use of an unconscious object by a conscious actor is now a "conscious system".  You have now imparted consciousness to a serious of actions, rather than the creator of the actions.

In the second part, you springboard from this to claiming that unconscious things are now conscious when they are used by consciousness.

I'm gonna need you to break these parts down for me a little more.

Doktor Howl

Complexity isn't consciousness.
Molon Lube

Doktor Howl

Quote from: LMNO on February 25, 2020, 09:02:38 PM

In the first part, you're saying the use of an unconscious object by a conscious actor is now a "conscious system".  You have now imparted consciousness to a serious of actions, rather than the creator of the actions.


By this standard, my toilet is a supercomputer.
Molon Lube

altered

Quote from: Doktor Howl on February 25, 2020, 09:03:28 PM
Quote from: LMNO on February 25, 2020, 09:02:38 PM

In the first part, you're saying the use of an unconscious object by a conscious actor is now a "conscious system".  You have now imparted consciousness to a serious of actions, rather than the creator of the actions.


By this standard, my toilet is a supercomputer.

Well, the government has been using the waste heat to power NASA. Spending cuts, you know.

I thought you were aware. Sorry you had to find out this way.
"I am that worst of all type of criminal...I cannot bring myself to do what you tell me, because you told me."

There's over 100 of us in this meat-suit. You'd think it runs like a ship, but it's more like a hundred and ten angry ghosts having an old-school QuakeWorld tournament, three people desperately trying to make sure the gamers don't go hungry or soil themselves, and the Facilities manager weeping in the corner as the garbage piles high.

Frontside Back

Quote from: LMNO on February 25, 2020, 09:02:38 PM
QuoteLet us then consider a combined system of a human and a stone. Stone has now become a part of an conscious system.  Even if by itself largely unconscious, a person-stone system can extend its reach through a nearby window.
QuoteLikewise I'd argue that this planet as a whole is largely conscious.

Hold up.


In the first part, you're saying the use of an unconscious object by a conscious actor is now a "conscious system".  You have now imparted consciousness to a serious of actions, rather than the creator of the actions.

In the second part, you springboard from this to claiming that unconscious things are now conscious when they are used by consciousness.

I'm gonna need you to break these parts down for me a little more.
Is your hand conscious after you cut it off? The way I see it the mind can reach way out of the body. This text is outside my mind, mere pixels on a screen but still carry consciousness within. Just like a rock.
"I want to be the Borg but I want to do it alone."

Doktor Howl

Quote from: Frontside Back on February 25, 2020, 09:29:04 PM
The way I see it the mind can reach way out of the body. This text is outside my mind, mere pixels on a screen but still carry consciousness within. Just like a rock.

Information is not consciousness.

Molon Lube

Frontside Back

Quote from: Doktor Howl on February 25, 2020, 09:31:44 PM
Quote from: Frontside Back on February 25, 2020, 09:29:04 PM
The way I see it the mind can reach way out of the body. This text is outside my mind, mere pixels on a screen but still carry consciousness within. Just like a rock.

Information is not consciousness.

I was saying that you would have no way of telling that a thing was conscious if the consciousness wasn't leaking to it's enviroment.Of course you could say that the stuff you smell in the air around people was some kind consciousness residue, but that doesn't explain emergence.
"I want to be the Borg but I want to do it alone."

Doktor Howl

Quote from: Frontside Back on February 25, 2020, 09:38:28 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on February 25, 2020, 09:31:44 PM
Quote from: Frontside Back on February 25, 2020, 09:29:04 PM
The way I see it the mind can reach way out of the body. This text is outside my mind, mere pixels on a screen but still carry consciousness within. Just like a rock.

Information is not consciousness.

I was saying that you would have no way of telling that a thing was conscious if the consciousness wasn't leaking to it's enviroment.Of course you could say that the stuff you smell in the air around people was some kind consciousness residue, but that doesn't explain emergence.

This is kind of wrapped like a cigar and then shoved up it's own ass.

Consciousness doesn't leak.  It stays in your head.  Communicate all day long, you aren't imparting consciousness, you are conveying information (of whatever value).

This is a combination of a category error and a fixed gear bike.
Molon Lube

altered

Quote from: Doktor Howl on February 25, 2020, 09:40:29 PM
Quote from: Frontside Back on February 25, 2020, 09:38:28 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on February 25, 2020, 09:31:44 PM
Quote from: Frontside Back on February 25, 2020, 09:29:04 PM
The way I see it the mind can reach way out of the body. This text is outside my mind, mere pixels on a screen but still carry consciousness within. Just like a rock.

Information is not consciousness.

I was saying that you would have no way of telling that a thing was conscious if the consciousness wasn't leaking to it's enviroment.Of course you could say that the stuff you smell in the air around people was some kind consciousness residue, but that doesn't explain emergence.

This is kind of wrapped like a cigar and then shoved up it's own ass.

Consciousness doesn't leak.  It stays in your head.  Communicate all day long, you aren't imparting consciousness, you are conveying information (of whatever value).

This is a combination of a category error and a fixed gear bike.

I want to have that last line branded into my eyelids so I can read it every time I go to sleep for the rest of my life.
"I am that worst of all type of criminal...I cannot bring myself to do what you tell me, because you told me."

There's over 100 of us in this meat-suit. You'd think it runs like a ship, but it's more like a hundred and ten angry ghosts having an old-school QuakeWorld tournament, three people desperately trying to make sure the gamers don't go hungry or soil themselves, and the Facilities manager weeping in the corner as the garbage piles high.

minuspace

Quote Point of order: I know that precisely One (1) consciousness exists in the universe: mine.


There goes another one concerned about its own existence, see, there not like the other ones.

altered

Quote from: LuciferX on February 25, 2020, 09:43:23 PM
Quote Point of order: I know that precisely One (1) consciousness exists in the universe: mine.


There goes another one concerned about its own existence, see, there not like the other ones.

He's fucking right, though. And he pointed out the solipsistic trap in the very post you quoted. So you're treating PD like Facebook, mocking people with out of context quotes for the respect of your peers, and you should feel bad and commence the self-flagellation.

Don't be a dipshit. Or an asshole. Oh, that's right: too late.
"I am that worst of all type of criminal...I cannot bring myself to do what you tell me, because you told me."

There's over 100 of us in this meat-suit. You'd think it runs like a ship, but it's more like a hundred and ten angry ghosts having an old-school QuakeWorld tournament, three people desperately trying to make sure the gamers don't go hungry or soil themselves, and the Facilities manager weeping in the corner as the garbage piles high.