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Also, i dont think discordia attracts any more sociopaths than say, atheism or satanism.

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A letter to the morally pure

Started by Doktor Howl, February 07, 2020, 04:01:32 PM

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Quote from: The Johnny on February 08, 2020, 12:16:16 AM

And Idk, regarding OP...

American politics (in the broadest sense of the term) are so fucked up and divisive that it's practically trench warfare.

I live in a different "world" (country) from you people but, fighting over preferred pronouns in the context of a dialogue or debate which primary theme is not that, its like fighting over spelling and grammar in a text argument. Surely there needs to be a basic standard of quality of writing for the purpose of intelligibility and making communication a possibility, but answering entire paragraphs of arguments with "I'ts spelled <<you're>>, not <<your>>", to me, just communicates that the main debate is over either because of lack of interest or because they lost and are looking to divert the attention elsewhere - so when in the middle of a debate im interrupted to tell me that im using the wrong pronouns, it's telling me that our attention is divided to different topics... perhaps in text it's more of a reasonable request, but in live speech its like, what the fuck are we even doing.

And already we are seeing the negative aspects of this trend, they're not "fascists" they're "alt-right", and all of a sudden we're fighting over pronouns and identity instead of the underlying issues, each one respectively on their own side of "No Man's land".

Let's talk about pronouns real quick. Sure.

First of all, what you're talking about with you're vs your is not the pronouns problem we are having. That's attacking the messenger so you can tiptoe around the message. It's irrelevant.

The pronouns problem we are having is equivalent to someone dropping n-bombs to every black person they meet hoping to get punched so they can parade it around as proof that black people are inherently violent. It's about dehumanizing and infuriating the enemy. (This comparison is more apt than most between misgendering and racial slurs, as both TERFs and white supremacists have done this exact thing.)

Let's talk about pronouns when it's NOT obviously the enemy. Let's talk about people saying they're on your side while dropping anti-Hispanic slurs into every sentence that has anything to do with you. Let's talk about if you correct them, they say it doesn't matter because they're trying to help, why not let them help, why attack them, you're being so mean. Then saying that clearly you don't want to be treated like people when you tell them where they can stick it.

That's the pronouns problem. It is an actual problem deserving of being brought up. When a trans woman talks about misogyny and someone says "but you're a man," it hurts everyone.

It matters, even if it derails the discussion. If some white kid dropped the N-bomb on a black opponent in a supposedly civil discussion, while not quoting people, it would derail that. As it should.

They aren't the same, mind you, and this comparison is a quick and easy way of bypassing the long winded explanation that causes people to try and find a billion gotchas, but they are similar and have similar effects on people. They should be treated similarly: ad hominem, for the sake of dehumanizing and infuriating the target.
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There's over 100 of us in this meat-suit. You'd think it runs like a ship, but it's more like a hundred and ten angry ghosts having an old-school QuakeWorld tournament, three people desperately trying to make sure the gamers don't go hungry or soil themselves, and the Facilities manager weeping in the corner as the garbage piles high.

Doktor Howl

Quote from: The Johnny on February 08, 2020, 12:16:16 AM

American politics (in the broadest sense of the term) are so fucked up and divisive that it's practically trench warfare.


It's even worse than it appears from a distance.
Molon Lube

The Johnny

Quote from: Doktor Howl on February 08, 2020, 04:47:19 AM
Quote from: The Johnny on February 08, 2020, 12:16:16 AM

American politics (in the broadest sense of the term) are so fucked up and divisive that it's practically trench warfare.


It's even worse than it appears from a distance.

Before, I could only imagine but it's starting to happen in my own country.

It was a long time where we had a one-party regime with "free elections" or whatever that means, were the results were rigged... the PRI (neoliberal authoritarian) "won" elections for 71 years... then the PAN (ultra conservatives that started the Drug War) won, then the PRI won again, and finally a third real contender came into being, MORENA which won... our current president allegedly, and probably, lost by fraud the previous two elections.

Before, leftist discourse was deemed and dismissed as an irrelevant joke, because it literally was, since it had no muscle nor practical implications on the political reality.

But now that the "opposition" won, the dismissiveness and haha lol, turned extremely quickly to some kind of venomous media vendetta. Since "leftist discourse" won a seat in power, it became a real threat, and every single fucking word or gesture has become a point of contention like its celebrity gossip. We have "opinion farms" of random paid losers that are on a salary to spread misinformation, I've even met some of them in person.

The new president isnt even completely clean and non-corrupt to the point that hes rationally or justly worthy to be defended... so in just a year, ive found myself in the middle of the screeching from both sides amongst party lines, and i cant imagine how loud its going to get in another year of time.

<<My image in some places, is of a monster of some kind who wants to pull a string and manipulate people. Nothing could be further from the truth. People are manipulated; I just want them to be manipulated more effectively.>>

-B.F. Skinner

The Johnny

Quote from: altered on February 08, 2020, 01:16:58 AM
Let's talk about pronouns real quick. Sure.

First of all, what you're talking about with you're vs your is not the pronouns problem we are having. That's attacking the messenger so you can tiptoe around the message. It's irrelevant.

The pronouns problem we are having is equivalent to someone dropping n-bombs to every black person they meet hoping to get punched so they can parade it around as proof that black people are inherently violent. It's about dehumanizing and infuriating the enemy. (This comparison is more apt than most between misgendering and racial slurs, as both TERFs and white supremacists have done this exact thing.)

Let's talk about pronouns when it's NOT obviously the enemy. Let's talk about people saying they're on your side while dropping anti-Hispanic slurs into every sentence that has anything to do with you. Let's talk about if you correct them, they say it doesn't matter because they're trying to help, why not let them help, why attack them, you're being so mean. Then saying that clearly you don't want to be treated like people when you tell them where they can stick it.

That's the pronouns problem. It is an actual problem deserving of being brought up. When a trans woman talks about misogyny and someone says "but you're a man," it hurts everyone.

It matters, even if it derails the discussion. If some white kid dropped the N-bomb on a black opponent in a supposedly civil discussion, while not quoting people, it would derail that. As it should.

They aren't the same, mind you, and this comparison is a quick and easy way of bypassing the long winded explanation that causes people to try and find a billion gotchas, but they are similar and have similar effects on people. They should be treated similarly: ad hominem, for the sake of dehumanizing and infuriating the target.

I hope you can see how I see things more abstractly... the biggest manifestation of "language" in discussions over here has been about using neutral plural pronouns "todes" "nosotres" (normally the plural is "todos/todas", "nosotros"/"nosotras", which is the male and female plurals, while using the letter "E" is an invention to make it neutral... "todes" = "all of them", "nosotres= all of us")

And here in the middle of Mexico, I can tell you that I dont know any black, jewish, asian person... its so very strange how its all so homogeneous when i recall times when i lived in border cities... all my homosexual friends/aquaintances are closeted for the most part.

What i mean is, i guess i understand it in a general abstract way, but not fully since that doesnt exist here yet, or because of the homogeneity.
<<My image in some places, is of a monster of some kind who wants to pull a string and manipulate people. Nothing could be further from the truth. People are manipulated; I just want them to be manipulated more effectively.>>

-B.F. Skinner

rong

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P3nT4gR4m

It's possible for someone to be on the right side of the argument and still be a complete fucking asshole.

Just mentioning it because it took me ages to figure this out for myself.

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Molon Lube

Doktor Howl

Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on February 08, 2020, 10:45:35 PM
It's possible for someone to be on the right side of the argument and still be a complete fucking asshole.

Just mentioning it because it took me ages to figure this out for myself.

It's also possible to be on the right side of the argument and harm that side of the argument.
Molon Lube

altered

Quote from: Doktor Howl on February 09, 2020, 05:12:27 AM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on February 08, 2020, 10:45:35 PM
It's possible for someone to be on the right side of the argument and still be a complete fucking asshole.

Just mentioning it because it took me ages to figure this out for myself.

It's also possible to be on the right side of the argument and harm that side of the argument.

This is the exact phrasing I was looking for in response to the stuff Johnny was talking about.

I was aware of the Spanish e-pronoun people, and I support the concept, and yet! And yet, it sounds like it's being approached in a way that ensures it gets public backlash, and sets everyone who can benefit from it back 40 years or more.
"I am that worst of all type of criminal...I cannot bring myself to do what you tell me, because you told me."

There's over 100 of us in this meat-suit. You'd think it runs like a ship, but it's more like a hundred and ten angry ghosts having an old-school QuakeWorld tournament, three people desperately trying to make sure the gamers don't go hungry or soil themselves, and the Facilities manager weeping in the corner as the garbage piles high.

tyrannosaurus vex

I'm all for spitting vitriol at people who willfully misgender anyone, including by repeatedly using the wrong pronouns. But when it's an honest slip, or someone who is new to the particulars of whatever situation they're in, it shouldn't derail the whole conversation unless the person obstinately refuses to adjust their behavior - because, if they're a person who does that, there's little point in any sort of conversation with them. Someone who outright refuses to respect other people's identities is unlikely to have worthwhile opinions in other areas anyway.

But it's true there's disingenuous tactics used, and it's maddening. People who don't support Buttigieg are immediately cast as homophobes and can't live it down, people who don't like Hillary or Warren are immediately regarded as sexist for no reason except their lack of political support. I think a lot of it comes down to the fact that identity is by far the primary motivator for a lot of people. Buttigieg should be president because he is gay; Warren should be president because she is a woman. And, people project their own motivations onto others so if someone doesn't support Buttigieg, in their minds it must likewise be because he is gay. And of course it happens everywhere, not just political campaigns. It makes it impossible, sometimes, to have substantive conversations because anyone with an identity ticket becomes immune to criticism of any kind because identity overrides every other aspect. And you can't even talk about this state of affairs, because identity per se is supposed to be the only issue we care about.
Evil and Unfeeling Arse-Flenser From The City of the Damned.

Doktor Howl

Quote from: tyrannosaurus vex on February 10, 2020, 03:48:15 PM
I'm all for spitting vitriol at people who willfully misgender anyone, including by repeatedly using the wrong pronouns. But when it's an honest slip, or someone who is new to the particulars of whatever situation they're in, it shouldn't derail the whole conversation unless the person obstinately refuses to adjust their behavior - because, if they're a person who does that, there's little point in any sort of conversation with them. Someone who outright refuses to respect other people's identities is unlikely to have worthwhile opinions in other areas anyway.

But it's true there's disingenuous tactics used, and it's maddening. People who don't support Buttigieg are immediately cast as homophobes and can't live it down, people who don't like Hillary or Warren are immediately regarded as sexist for no reason except their lack of political support. I think a lot of it comes down to the fact that identity is by far the primary motivator for a lot of people. Buttigieg should be president because he is gay; Warren should be president because she is a woman. And, people project their own motivations onto others so if someone doesn't support Buttigieg, in their minds it must likewise be because he is gay. And of course it happens everywhere, not just political campaigns. It makes it impossible, sometimes, to have substantive conversations because anyone with an identity ticket becomes immune to criticism of any kind because identity overrides every other aspect. And you can't even talk about this state of affairs, because identity per se is supposed to be the only issue we care about.

Yeah, that's the fetish bit.

I maintain that being a member of a minority group doesn't mean anything except that you are a member of a minority group.  I refuse to consider the fact that a minority lacks the agency to be a complete prick.

This tends to cause problems.  "Once Again Satan" is a prime example of that, and also of this sort of fetishization ruining everything it touches.
Molon Lube

altered

Over the past few months, I, a gay trans woman who lived in Boston happily for awhile, have mocked Pete and reluctantly admitted Warren might be a shitty option.

I have been told this shows my internalized self hatred. In fact, it shows that Pete is a shitty baby and that Warren doesn't have the spine to call her own staff out. But I don't know as much about my problems as some dingus in Chicago who met me once and once only and who knows nothing about me except that I'm a gay trans woman, most recently from Boston.

I'm familiar with the bad tactics in active use. There's too much of people just hanging their bigotry out for all to see.

Oh, yeah. It's bigotry. You only need to have their "preferred" target loudly disagree with them to see that. Gay men versus Pete fans. Women who aren't pro-Warren. Show a white Obama fan a black person saying Obama sucks and they immediately assume they are The Enemy, because how could you be left of Pinochet and not love Obama — if you are black???

And they assume these things, and have a REALLY HARD TIME parsing information that disagrees with these things, because it's how their minds work. "My In-Group foremost." They're making a conscious decision to put their in-group second and they assume everyone else has to do the same thing. When they get shat on for being a moron, they assume everyone else is the problem for not breaking "their bigoted mindsets".

Once you see the pattern, you can't ignore it.
"I am that worst of all type of criminal...I cannot bring myself to do what you tell me, because you told me."

There's over 100 of us in this meat-suit. You'd think it runs like a ship, but it's more like a hundred and ten angry ghosts having an old-school QuakeWorld tournament, three people desperately trying to make sure the gamers don't go hungry or soil themselves, and the Facilities manager weeping in the corner as the garbage piles high.

Doktor Howl

Quote from: altered on February 10, 2020, 08:09:08 PM

I have been told this shows my internalized self hatred.

This is why I am a fan of the externalized "Fuck you, Jack."
Molon Lube

Doktor Howl

Seriously, there is a limit to the amount of bullshit that people can be expected to take.

Because I'm willing to bet that at least half of the people who mentioned that "internalized self-hatred" are themselves cis/hetero.  MINIMUM half.  It's that fucking savior thing again, and fuck how much it hurts actual attempts to change things for the better, because it's the postmodern Olympics and first one to the validation trough wins. 
Molon Lube

The Wizard Joseph

Quote from: Doktor Howl on February 10, 2020, 08:53:20 PM
Quote from: altered on February 10, 2020, 08:09:08 PM

I have been told this shows my internalized self hatred.

This is why I am a fan of the externalized "Fuck you, Jack."

Sic Wisdom.
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