Author Topic: Ronald Reagan was wrong  (Read 2940 times)

PopeTom

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Ronald Reagan was wrong
« on: March 04, 2020, 09:40:30 pm »
Ronald Reagan was wrong.

"Government is not the solution to our problem, government is the problem."

Fuck that fucker.

Guess who the government in a democracy* is?

It’s the people, so let’s try some word replacement.

“The people are not the solution to our problem, the people are the problem.”

Doesn’t that sound like a much better motto for a bunch of oligarchs who don’t want the burden of caring about the plebes to undercut their profit margin?   

Fuck the oligarchs too.

How about we try some more word replacement?

Who is responsible to make sure corporations don’t poison the water supply?

The people.

Who is responsible to make sure that a person is paid a fair wage for the labor they do?

The people.

Who is responsible to make sure that a work environment isn’t going to maim or kill those who work in it?

The people.

Who is responsible to make sure your children aren’t killed in a foreign land because a war is the best way to shore up the stock market?

The people.

Check your results.  How did you do?

This is your country, your government, your rules.

You want universal healthcare, done.

You want renewable sources of energy, done.

You want to stop the murder of brown people on the other side of the planet, done.

You want to stop the murder of brown people in our own fucking cities by the mother fucking police, done.

Be the problem oligarchs think you are.  Make the world a better place for you and everyone in it.

*If your first thought is to bring up how the United States is a republic and not a democracy please remove that pedantic stick from your ass and jab it into your eye.


-PopeTom

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Doktor Howl

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Re: Ronald Reagan was wrong
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2020, 10:01:09 pm »
NICE.
Molon Lube

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Re: Ronald Reagan was wrong
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2020, 10:05:46 pm »
I have a major issue with the message in this. I am all about the spirit, but there’s something off in the message. I’ll write something up in detail later. For now...

Something about we need to pay attention to the republic-not-democracy part because the representatives gatekeep the voice of the people from becoming real change.

Also something like “if the people are making the decisions that are affecting me and my friends directly today, maybe there’s a much bigger issue than oligarchs in the first place,” which Dok pointed out in the 2020 thread today, I believe.

I’ll give it a proper write up later.
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Q. G. Pennyworth

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Re: Ronald Reagan was wrong
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2020, 10:34:01 pm »
It's a good start but it leaves out the very important concern that "the people" can be dumb, panicky, racist assholes. Remember that "the people" used jury nullification to prevent lynching murderers from facing justice, "the people" compromised that other people only count for 3/5ths, and don't get to vote in any case, "the people" made being gay illegal, and "the people" keep voting against raising taxes to pay for the things they need.

PopeTom

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Re: Ronald Reagan was wrong
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2020, 11:00:40 pm »
It's a good start but it leaves out the very important concern that "the people" can be dumb, panicky, racist assholes. Remember that "the people" used jury nullification to prevent lynching murderers from facing justice, "the people" compromised that other people only count for 3/5ths, and don't get to vote in any case, "the people" made being gay illegal, and "the people" keep voting against raising taxes to pay for the things they need.

I see some of that as oligarchs still attempting to keep the people from having a proper say in how their society should function.  Aspects that don't fall under that umbrella could likely be minimized with access to good education and encouraging the meet of those different than oneself.
-PopeTom

I am the result of 13.75 ± 0.13 billion years of random chance. Now that I exist I see no reason to start planning and organizing everything in my life.

Random dumb luck got me here, random dumb luck will get me to where I'm going.

Hail Eris!

tyrannosaurus vex

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Re: Ronald Reagan was wrong
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2020, 03:43:48 pm »
All governments are democracies. No government ever existed except by virtue of the fact that the people it ruled didn't rise up and tear it down. This includes oligarchies like America. This includes totalitarian states of all stripes. Americans have decided, either through activism or the lack thereof, that this imperial fascist political melanoma that shits on the whole planet including most of its own citizens is exactly what we want.

That there are decent people here who don't want America to be what it is, is not an indictment of oligarchs or evidence that our democracy is flawed. There just aren't enough of them to make much of a difference, on balance.
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Re: Ronald Reagan was wrong
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2020, 04:00:26 pm »
All governments are democracies. No government ever existed except by virtue of the fact that the people it ruled didn't rise up and tear it down.
"The population is not currently in a state of revolt" is not how you characterize a democracy. It is neither necessary nor sufficient.

Democracy implies distributed control, which is distinct from general consent.

If all governments were democracies, then the term itself would be meaningless, for there would be no distinction to be made.
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Re: Ronald Reagan was wrong
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2020, 04:06:24 pm »
All governments are democracies. No government ever existed except by virtue of the fact that the people it ruled didn't rise up and tear it down.
"The population is not currently in a state of revolt" is not how you characterize a democracy. It is neither necessary nor sufficient.

Democracy implies distributed control, which is distinct from general consent.

If all governments were democracies, then the term itself would be meaningless, for there would be no distinction to be made.

This is very true.

Also true: in a true, complete democracy, I would be made illegal.
“I am that worst of all type of criminal...I cannot bring myself to do what you tell me, because you told me.”

“Ever watch that famous war movie? That’s how it’ll be.”
“Which one?”
“The one where everybody dies.”
— Blood Standard, Laird Barron

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tyrannosaurus vex

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Re: Ronald Reagan was wrong
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2020, 04:12:19 pm »
All governments are democracies. No government ever existed except by virtue of the fact that the people it ruled didn't rise up and tear it down.
"The population is not currently in a state of revolt" is not how you characterize a democracy. It is neither necessary nor sufficient.

Democracy implies distributed control, which is distinct from general consent.

If all governments were democracies, then the term itself would be meaningless, for there would be no distinction to be made.

I meant the term "consent" of course, in the sense that they meant it in the Declaration of Independence, that "all government derives its just powers from the consent of the governed". It wasn't just flowery political theory, but a basic fact. If the people rescind their consent, the government falls -- regardless of the organizing principles of that government. "Democracy" as a form of government is obviously distinct from Fascism or Stalinism or (actual) monarchy; but the fundamental social principle of any government is that it exists because the people allow it to exist, and in that sense is democratic.

My point was that the US government is what it is because we don't stop it from being that, not because we are victims of some insurmountable power that has some sort of existence separate from the people. It gets back to the DoI, as we apparently have not yet encountered any trains of abuses and usurpations long enough to prod us into real action.
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Re: Ronald Reagan was wrong
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2020, 04:18:09 pm »
I would like to point out the Black Panthers.

It has been tried. You need a critical mass, though, sufficient that militarizing the people into dirt becomes something of an economic and political problem.

The vast majority of Americans I have met are fundamentally hateful, greedy, jealous, xenophobic pieces of shit. And I’ve been all over the USA. Some of these people are overcoming their worse impulses, some are just keeping them out of sight, but the average person on the street is terrible at their core.

That means those who do give a fuck aren’t willing to throw everything away so they can be shot by the Feds and used as an excuse to demonize the other people like them.


EDIT: And if you doubt me, find ten random people and watch each of them get into an argument, something fairly uncontroversial, with a trans person or a black person. They won’t drop N-bombs or call the trans person a tranny, but they’ll sure as shit misgender the trans person and drop some hateful stereotypes about black people on the floor. All it takes is the possibility they aren’t actually the best people they can be, and the mask comes off.

I think you’d have to run that trial three or four times outside of college towns before you found someone who knew better.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2020, 04:24:23 pm by altered »
“I am that worst of all type of criminal...I cannot bring myself to do what you tell me, because you told me.”

“Ever watch that famous war movie? That’s how it’ll be.”
“Which one?”
“The one where everybody dies.”
— Blood Standard, Laird Barron

Remember the fall of Yin Tu.

tyrannosaurus vex

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Re: Ronald Reagan was wrong
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2020, 04:28:07 pm »
I would like to point out the Black Panthers.

It has been tried. You need a critical mass, though, sufficient that militarizing the people into dirt becomes something of an economic and political problem.

The vast majority of Americans I have met are fundamentally hateful, greedy, jealous, xenophobic pieces of shit. And I’ve been all over the USA. Some of these people are overcoming their worse impulses, some are just keeping them out of sight, but the average person on the street is terrible at their core.

That means those who do give a fuck aren’t willing to throw everything away so they can be shot by the Feds and used as an excuse to demonize the other people like them.

This is all true. I'm not saying it's a situation likely to be resolved -- in fact I'm saying the opposite. The USA has a rotten culture that has been rotten from the start. The main problem now is the 60 or so years where we combined that rotten culture with surpluses in profit, resources, and productivity and got it stuck in our heads that somehow abundance was our birthright. The strides that were made socially and economically for the lower classes and the disenfranchised were, largely, no more than payoffs to keep people from grumbling because it ruins the view. Now that that abundance is drying up, we find that those payoffs are also drying up because they were never really implemented for any genuine reason in the first place.

Now we have a rotten culture and withdrawal symptoms from that phony American Dream business that was never a real thing anyway. And most Americans are awful at their core -- if not because they are hateful and racist, then just because they are myopic and addicted to instant gratification. And that's why the US government is the way it is -- not because the oligarchs grabbed control (they've always had it anyway) but because the government is an emergent phenomenon that embodies all the qualities of the electorate, whether it wants to or not. Selfish, impatient, greedy, violent people -> selfish, impatient, greedy, violent government.
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Re: Ronald Reagan was wrong
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2020, 04:37:56 pm »
And that's why the US government is the way it is -- not because the oligarchs grabbed control (they've always had it anyway) but because the government is an emergent phenomenon that embodies all the qualities of the electorate, whether it wants to or not. Selfish, impatient, greedy, violent people -> selfish, impatient, greedy, violent government.

That. That whole thing. Exactly.
“I am that worst of all type of criminal...I cannot bring myself to do what you tell me, because you told me.”

“Ever watch that famous war movie? That’s how it’ll be.”
“Which one?”
“The one where everybody dies.”
— Blood Standard, Laird Barron

Remember the fall of Yin Tu.

The Johnny

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Re: Ronald Reagan was wrong
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2020, 08:32:08 pm »
All governments are democracies. No government ever existed except by virtue of the fact that the people it ruled didn't rise up and tear it down.
"The population is not currently in a state of revolt" is not how you characterize a democracy. It is neither necessary nor sufficient.

Democracy implies distributed control, which is distinct from general consent.

If all governments were democracies, then the term itself would be meaningless, for there would be no distinction to be made.

I meant the term "consent" of course, in the sense that they meant it in the Declaration of Independence, that "all government derives its just powers from the consent of the governed". It wasn't just flowery political theory, but a basic fact. If the people rescind their consent, the government falls -- regardless of the organizing principles of that government. "Democracy" as a form of government is obviously distinct from Fascism or Stalinism or (actual) monarchy; but the fundamental social principle of any government is that it exists because the people allow it to exist, and in that sense is democratic.

My point was that the US government is what it is because we don't stop it from being that, not because we are victims of some insurmountable power that has some sort of existence separate from the people. It gets back to the DoI, as we apparently have not yet encountered any trains of abuses and usurpations long enough to prod us into real action.

I like some sophistry myself, to shake up how we think of things and question it, but, the political body theory youre alluding to is very recent and modern... i also do understand your definition is more from a pragmatic perspective that, yes, it is true that a conglomerate of people cant be ruled if they all decide to throw off the ruler (which in these times with all the police state infrastructure and modernization of weaponry, it would have to be a VERY decided and strong opposition or else the dissidents just get jailed, exterminated or silenced and the movement just fizzles out).

But from the theory side, before there was divine right of kings, or brute power as the legitimation of power.

I'm basicly agreeing but with some addenda.
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Re: Ronald Reagan was wrong
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2020, 08:36:55 pm »
Ronald Reagan was wrong.

"Government is not the solution to our problem, government is the problem."

Fuck that fucker.

Guess who the government in a democracy* is?

It’s the people, so let’s try some word replacement.

“The people are not the solution to our problem, the people are the problem.”

See, in these dire times where everything is a trigger word and theres a massive failure in communication, doing these "back to basics" approach to reignite some kind of thought is important and efficient.

One has to go back to basics because nobody is going to read more than two sentences if it doesnt agree with their deep rooted ideology - so fighting slogans with, slogans that re-frame definitions is the way to go.
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Re: Ronald Reagan was wrong
« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2020, 09:44:52 pm »
"Government is not the solution to our problem, government is the problem."

that's awful close to my expulsion: "The government's job isn't to fix problems, the job of government is to maintain them." you can use that if you want, just credit me. but-- I dunno if the mass public are good arbiters of anything. so there is nothing that works. I think it's all a crapshoot.