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Started by Dimocritus, April 25, 2020, 06:41:36 AM

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Dimocritus

TLDR; Help me convince my friends to vote for Biden.

Context: I like Sen. Sander' policies. I hate Joe Biden. I hate Orange Hitler probably more than anything. I tend to vote very ideologically, but am smart enough to know when to when to switch strategies and be more pragmatic. The people I know that are Sanders supporters have the most stellar intentions and hold very strong progressive values, but feel slighted and are understandably impatient for some major changes, which they, understandably, do not expect from a Biden presidency.

No, insulting their intelligence and lumping them all in as "Bernie Bros" is not effective and will have counterproductive outcomes.

I intend on messaging my friends individually to make a case. I would like to make that case as strongly as possible. I need to make this as appealing to them as possible. I hate doing this, I hate voting and convincing others to vote in a manner that defies their core values, but it must be done.

I would like all of your help to construct the most foolproof (lol, I know) argument possible, using ethos and pathos where logos won't do.
HOUSE OF GABCab ~ "caecus plumbum caecus"

altered

Here's the problem I've found trying to make this argument:

Either these people have nothing to lose, or they are True Believers.

Sounds dismissive?

Try saying: hey, maybe we could have four years of queer people not dying miserable, preventable deaths due to medical bigotry. Maybe we could not have the Supreme Court even more stacked against us for the rest of our lifetimes.

Maybe saving people is the right move.

If those arguments don't work, it would take Holy Writ, and they might even ignore that. If they've let their convictions take on more value than human lives, then the certain betrayal of their convictions outweighs a reduction in suffering. That condition is one that I have never been able to bring someone back from, least of all in a message that works on broad swaths of people.

If I manage to vote, I'll vote Biden. I'll hold my nose and do the deed despite feeling outraged and horrified that the good choice is that fucking bad.

I'll do it because I don't want to die, and I have so many friends I don't want to die either. And in the end, that is what four more years of Trump will do, when you can't even get necessary medical treatment because you might be queer.
"I am that worst of all type of criminal...I cannot bring myself to do what you tell me, because you told me."

There's over 100 of us in this meat-suit. You'd think it runs like a ship, but it's more like a hundred and ten angry ghosts having an old-school QuakeWorld tournament, three people desperately trying to make sure the gamers don't go hungry or soil themselves, and the Facilities manager weeping in the corner as the garbage piles high.

Dimocritus

Quote from: altered on April 25, 2020, 07:20:09 AM
Here's the problem I've found trying to make this argument:

Either these people have nothing to lose, or they are True Believers.

Sounds dismissive?

Try saying: hey, maybe we could have four years of queer people not dying miserable, preventable deaths due to medical bigotry. Maybe we could not have the Supreme Court even more stacked against us for the rest of our lifetimes.

Maybe saving people is the right move.

If those arguments don't work, it would take Holy Writ, and they might even ignore that. If they've let their convictions take on more value than human lives, then the certain betrayal of their convictions outweighs a reduction in suffering. That condition is one that I have never been able to bring someone back from, least of all in a message that works on broad swaths of people.

If I manage to vote, I'll vote Biden. I'll hold my nose and do the deed despite feeling outraged and horrified that the good choice is that fucking bad.

I'll do it because I don't want to die, and I have so many friends I don't want to die either. And in the end, that is what four more years of Trump will do, when you can't even get necessary medical treatment because you might be queer.

I understand your point but I do think it's a bit dismissive and I'm not totally sure that throwing your hands up and declaring that they are "unreachable" is the best strategy at this point. Like it or not, we kinda need them.

I think very few Berners are "True Believers" and I think it's more likely that they feel hopeless and/or helpless rather than that they feel that they have "nothing to lose." I think that they feel like they have EVERYTHING to lose and they do not see a path that prevents them, their friends, and their families from losing everything. All in all, Berners, at least the ones that I know ARE intelligent and compassionate people that just feel disenfranchised and hopeless.

Maybe if they can be presented with something that gives them a glimmer of hope they can be persuaded. Maybe frame the whole "voting Biden" thing as a small step towards something bigger? Maybe? I really don't know which is why I'm here.

Mind you, I don't even CARE at this point if I'm being TRUTHFUL to these people, as long as I can influence them to get Orange Hitler the fuck out.
HOUSE OF GABCab ~ "caecus plumbum caecus"

Doktor Howl

Quote from: Dimocritus on April 25, 2020, 06:41:36 AM
TLDR; Help me convince my friends to vote for Biden.

Context: I like Sen. Sander' policies. I hate Joe Biden. I hate Orange Hitler probably more than anything. I tend to vote very ideologically, but am smart enough to know when to when to switch strategies and be more pragmatic. The people I know that are Sanders supporters have the most stellar intentions and hold very strong progressive values, but feel slighted and are understandably impatient for some major changes, which they, understandably, do not expect from a Biden presidency.

No, insulting their intelligence and lumping them all in as "Bernie Bros" is not effective and will have counterproductive outcomes.

I intend on messaging my friends individually to make a case. I would like to make that case as strongly as possible. I need to make this as appealing to them as possible. I hate doing this, I hate voting and convincing others to vote in a manner that defies their core values, but it must be done.

I would like all of your help to construct the most foolproof (lol, I know) argument possible, using ethos and pathos where logos won't do.

Look, this is really simple.

If after 4 years of Trump being president, anyone says that they won't take the best chance to remove him, then that person never cared about society in the first place, and their posturing is nothing but a grotesque validation wank.

Molon Lube

Dimocritus

Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 25, 2020, 04:10:36 PM
Quote from: Dimocritus on April 25, 2020, 06:41:36 AM
TLDR; Help me convince my friends to vote for Biden.

Context: I like Sen. Sander' policies. I hate Joe Biden. I hate Orange Hitler probably more than anything. I tend to vote very ideologically, but am smart enough to know when to when to switch strategies and be more pragmatic. The people I know that are Sanders supporters have the most stellar intentions and hold very strong progressive values, but feel slighted and are understandably impatient for some major changes, which they, understandably, do not expect from a Biden presidency.

No, insulting their intelligence and lumping them all in as "Bernie Bros" is not effective and will have counterproductive outcomes.

I intend on messaging my friends individually to make a case. I would like to make that case as strongly as possible. I need to make this as appealing to them as possible. I hate doing this, I hate voting and convincing others to vote in a manner that defies their core values, but it must be done.

I would like all of your help to construct the most foolproof (lol, I know) argument possible, using ethos and pathos where logos won't do.

Look, this is really simple.

If after 4 years of Trump being president, anyone says that they won't take the best chance to remove him, then that person never cared about society in the first place, and their posturing is nothing but a grotesque validation wank.

Oh ok, so then I won't bother trying then. Thanks for your insight. Really glad I asked.
HOUSE OF GABCab ~ "caecus plumbum caecus"

Cramulus

#5
I feel ya Dimo, I supported Warren and Sanders and it seems like their whole platform just got flushed. But here's why I think we should vote for Biden anyway:


  • The next president gets 2 supreme court picks. It could become a conservative majority, and if Trump picks young judges, it could be a conservative majority for 30 more years. On the chopping block are LGBTQ rights, Women's rights, Death Penalty, Separation of Church and State, and how all the new tech gets regulated
  • Biden may not be progressive, but he also isn't regressive. He will roll back a lot of Trump's executive orders and has an opportunity to end things like the child separation policy, participation in the paris climate accord, all that shit
  • Biden will actually attempt to maintain our alliances and relationships with other world leaders, continue participation in stuff like the World Health Org, etc. Trump is willing to sacrifice all of that for short term/russian goals.

like basically, even if you view this as a choice between a murderous dictator and a early-90s-style republican, it's still kind of an easy choice IMO. Like if Bush were running against Trump, you'd prefer Bush, right?

Pretty much all democratic voters under age 60 are not getting their first choice. But we need to remember that we shouldn't be in anybody's personality cult. Progressivism was never about Bernie, he's just the face. Progressives can accomplish a lot more under Biden than under Trump.


Cramulus

also, if you are in the Sanders Camp, then maybe heed his advice:

QuoteSanders said his supporters have a simple choice now that Biden has emerged as the presumptive nominee: "Do we be as active as we can in electing Joe Biden and doing everything we can to move Joe and his campaign in a more progressive direction? Or do we choose to sit it out and allow the most dangerous president in modern American history to get reelected?"

He continued: "I believe that it's irresponsible for anybody to say, 'Well, I disagree with Joe Biden -- I disagree with Joe Biden! -- and therefore I'm not going to be involved.'"

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/04/14/bernie-sanders-says-opposing-joe-biden-irresponsible/2993775001/



For what it's worth, the Biden platform has incorporated a few token progressive elements. They're not exactly what we want, but it's better than nothing, right?

Hagtard Celine Dion Mustard

#7
Quote from: Dimocritus on April 25, 2020, 06:41:36 AM
Help me convince my friends to vote for Biden.

It's not your job to convince them to vote for Biden. It's Biden's job to convince them to vote for Biden.

Right now, Biden needs to be afraid of losing. There are still seven months between now and the election that he has to start speaking the language of people who are interested in more than just a return to "normalcy" - the same normalcy that got us into this cave of blunders in the first place. The same normalcy that a GOP-led senate will delightfully continue to face-fuck (since they don't have to make progress in order to win because stagnation is part of their long game; as long as they're obstructing, they're as happy as a Cuban in cocaine). Biden's projected strategy is to open negotiations by asking for less than what everyone wants. There's still time to change that plan, but the only way he'll even think about pushing harder is if he's scared shitless that the powers behind him have kept us all so blitheringly, drooling stupid for so long that we might just be dumb enough to trigger the end of the Mexican standoff.

Speaking of negotiations, everyone already fucking blew it when they started out by saying they'd vote for literally anyone other than Trump. Way to show your hand at cards, you poor, deluded weasels. When you tell the DNC that you'll take anything they give you, that's exactly what you get.

Don't give me any shit about Biden getting more votes, either. People en masse are ridiculously easy to socially engineer, not to mention all the other circumstances around primaries that contribute towards him winding up as the default. When Sanders raises the amounts of money he did from non-corporate donors and fills out stadiums country-wide but Biden shows up and just Matt-Damons himself into the front, you know there's something seriously fucked about the whole process.

Stop trying to concede everything you want just because you're afraid of another four years of Orange Man or conservative judges packed dick-to-asshole in courts across the country. Nothing about either of those things is in any way permanent. Will they retard progress? Sure. Won't everything?

Right now, you're walking up to a prostitute and asking her if you can take her out to dinner. You're already paying for the sex; maybe you should start making her prove that she's the right whore for you.
"I never thought of shaving my beard and freeing the slaves, but I thought of shaving the slaves and freeing my beard!"
~ Abrahaham Lincololn

altered

You know what is permanent?

Death.

I'm homeless and queer.

Before Trump exits office, no matter when he actually does, it will be legal to deny me medical care because I am queer. Look it up. This is not an exaggeration.

Homelessness guarantees I have more health problems than the average population. Not just statistically, with absolute certainty. Homeless people get health problems, period. This is one of the few cases where socioeconomic status correlates to such an extent with health issues that you can throw away all the statistical weasel words and just call it what it is.

If one of those health problems explodes, and I have no doubt it will, and the doctors say "oh, tranny freak" and decide I deserve to die, I'm gone forever. That is permanent and no one gets to take that back.

Trans people are homeless more often than any other segment of the population.

Other queer people have an elevated rate of homelessness too.

Saying "Biden isn't worth it and if we get four more years of Trump it's only temporary" is saying that queer people dying doesn't matter. At the very bare fucking minimum.

Yes, there are queer people who agree with you because their deaths are already set in stone and there is nothing left in marginal gains for them. They can afford to risk it all. They have nothing to lose.

I do. I can't afford that risk. I'm teetering on the precipice every fucking day. Four more years of Trump will kill me as surely as a bullet to the hind brain. This is in no way an exaggeration. And I'm not alone.

And as I said in my first post in this thread: if you don't think that matters, if you can't be swayed by that argument, there is no argument that can sway you and nothing that can change your mind.



Dimo, here is the experiment in action. You ask them: Does human life fucking matter? And you wait for their response. Remember the basic rules of rhetoric: "yes but" means no.

Do you think you can convince anyone to be on your side if they disagree with you on that level? If they don't believe saving lives and reducing suffering is worth having to compromise on their convictions?
"I am that worst of all type of criminal...I cannot bring myself to do what you tell me, because you told me."

There's over 100 of us in this meat-suit. You'd think it runs like a ship, but it's more like a hundred and ten angry ghosts having an old-school QuakeWorld tournament, three people desperately trying to make sure the gamers don't go hungry or soil themselves, and the Facilities manager weeping in the corner as the garbage piles high.

Hagtard Celine Dion Mustard

Quote from: altered on April 25, 2020, 09:43:45 PM
If one of those health problems explodes, and I have no doubt it will, and the doctors say "oh, tranny freak" and decide I deserve to die, I'm gone forever.

If you ever find yourself in a time and place where doctors at a hospital say "oh, tranny freak" and decide you deserve to die, the world you live in has far bigger problems than electing Joe Biden can solve.
"I never thought of shaving my beard and freeing the slaves, but I thought of shaving the slaves and freeing my beard!"
~ Abrahaham Lincololn

Pergamos

Quote from: Dimocritus on April 25, 2020, 08:02:40 AM
Quote from: altered on April 25, 2020, 07:20:09 AM
Here's the problem I've found trying to make this argument:

Either these people have nothing to lose, or they are True Believers.

Sounds dismissive?

Try saying: hey, maybe we could have four years of queer people not dying miserable, preventable deaths due to medical bigotry. Maybe we could not have the Supreme Court even more stacked against us for the rest of our lifetimes.

Maybe saving people is the right move.

If those arguments don't work, it would take Holy Writ, and they might even ignore that. If they've let their convictions take on more value than human lives, then the certain betrayal of their convictions outweighs a reduction in suffering. That condition is one that I have never been able to bring someone back from, least of all in a message that works on broad swaths of people.

If I manage to vote, I'll vote Biden. I'll hold my nose and do the deed despite feeling outraged and horrified that the good choice is that fucking bad.

I'll do it because I don't want to die, and I have so many friends I don't want to die either. And in the end, that is what four more years of Trump will do, when you can't even get necessary medical treatment because you might be queer.

I understand your point but I do think it's a bit dismissive and I'm not totally sure that throwing your hands up and declaring that they are "unreachable" is the best strategy at this point. Like it or not, we kinda need them.

I think very few Berners are "True Believers" and I think it's more likely that they feel hopeless and/or helpless rather than that they feel that they have "nothing to lose." I think that they feel like they have EVERYTHING to lose and they do not see a path that prevents them, their friends, and their families from losing everything. All in all, Berners, at least the ones that I know ARE intelligent and compassionate people that just feel disenfranchised and hopeless.

Maybe if they can be presented with something that gives them a glimmer of hope they can be persuaded. Maybe frame the whole "voting Biden" thing as a small step towards something bigger? Maybe? I really don't know which is why I'm here.

Mind you, I don't even CARE at this point if I'm being TRUTHFUL to these people, as long as I can influence them to get Orange Hitler the fuck out.

It's not a small step to something bigger.  The conservative wing of the Democratic party led to the election of Trump.  On the other hand it means life to a lot of folks, Altered clearly knows that personally but it will also make a huge difference to all the refugees who arrive after Biden stops the policy of separating families and putting them in internment camps.  It will mean a slowdown in the dismantling of our environmental and labor protections.

The small step part is important, but it's not that voting Biden now will give us the chance to vote for someone better next time, if Biden wins then the real work, protests, strikes, mass movement, will all be much easier and folks will be less likely to be killed doing them.  Voting is nowhere near enough, Biden isnt going to fix anything, but he's going to break less things than Trump and the government was never going to fix things, not even under Sanders.  That's up to the people.

Frontside Back

Quote from: Hagtard Celine Dion Mustard on April 26, 2020, 12:31:57 AM
Quote from: altered on April 25, 2020, 09:43:45 PM
If one of those health problems explodes, and I have no doubt it will, and the doctors say "oh, tranny freak" and decide I deserve to die, I'm gone forever.

If you ever find yourself in a time and place where doctors at a hospital say "oh, tranny freak" and decide you deserve to die, the world you live in has far bigger problems than electing Joe Biden can solve.

Fuck you.

Electing Joe Biden solves one massive problem.
"I want to be the Borg but I want to do it alone."

altered

Quote from: Hagtard Celine Dion Mustard on April 26, 2020, 12:31:57 AM
Quote from: altered on April 25, 2020, 09:43:45 PM
If one of those health problems explodes, and I have no doubt it will, and the doctors say "oh, tranny freak" and decide I deserve to die, I'm gone forever.

If you ever find yourself in a time and place where doctors at a hospital say "oh, tranny freak" and decide you deserve to die, the world you live in has far bigger problems than electing Joe Biden can solve.

Then you would prefer to have people die to prove a point than to help people live by compromising your convictions.

This makes you a monster.
"I am that worst of all type of criminal...I cannot bring myself to do what you tell me, because you told me."

There's over 100 of us in this meat-suit. You'd think it runs like a ship, but it's more like a hundred and ten angry ghosts having an old-school QuakeWorld tournament, three people desperately trying to make sure the gamers don't go hungry or soil themselves, and the Facilities manager weeping in the corner as the garbage piles high.

Doktor Howl

Quote from: Cramulus on April 25, 2020, 05:40:13 PM
I feel ya Dimo, I supported Warren and Sanders and it seems like their whole platform just got flushed.

I supported Harris, then Warren, then Sanders, in that order.  I certainly didn't count on sleepy Joe.

None of my candidates won.

I'm still voting against Trump.  Because my feelings of butthurt do not exceed my hatred for every single thing Donald Trump stands for.
Molon Lube

Doktor Howl

Quote from: Hagtard Celine Dion Mustard on April 26, 2020, 12:31:57 AM
Quote from: altered on April 25, 2020, 09:43:45 PM
If one of those health problems explodes, and I have no doubt it will, and the doctors say "oh, tranny freak" and decide I deserve to die, I'm gone forever.

If you ever find yourself in a time and place where doctors at a hospital say "oh, tranny freak" and decide you deserve to die, the world you live in has far bigger problems than electing Joe Biden can solve.

Getting rid of Trump's Nazi ass is a good start.
Molon Lube