"It's not my job to educate you" - asymmetries in accessibility

[LMNO]

if somebody asks for evidence I give it to them.

Alice: There is systemic racism in the US policing and justice system, and I have a plan to fix that.
Bob: What do you mean by "Racism"?

Alice: ***insert 20 minute historical review of racism in America***

Bob: But weren't the Irish slaves, too?  They're white, it sounds like it wasn't about skin color.

Alice: ***insert 30 minute explanation about the difference between chattel slavery and indentured servitude***

Bob: Yeah, but they were white, right?

Alice: ***insert 40 minute diatribe about the social construction of "whiteness", and who is allowed to be white***

Bob: So what makes it "Systemic"?




At this point, Alice has spent an hour and a half talking, and never got to the main issue at hand.  And this was precisely what Bob wanted to happen.  Bob is Sea-Lioning. 

[Doktor Howl]

if somebody asks for evidence I give it to them.

Alice: There is systemic racism in the US policing and justice system, and I have a plan to fix that.
Bob: What do you mean by "Racism"?

Alice: ***insert 20 minute historical review of racism in America***

Bob: But weren't the Irish slaves, too?  They're white, it sounds like it wasn't about skin color.

Alice: ***insert 30 minute explanation about the difference between chattel slavery and indentured servitude***

Bob: Yeah, but they were white, right?

Alice: ***insert 40 minute diatribe about the social construction of "whiteness", and who is allowed to be white***

Bob: So what makes it "Systemic"?




At this point, Alice has spent an hour and a half talking, and never got to the main issue at hand.  And this was precisely what Bob wanted to happen.  Bob is Sea-Lioning.

Alice should have initiated the conversation with a brick.

[Cain]

Obidex thinks insincere requests for information are fine.

I think you all know what this means.

[The Johnny]

if somebody asks for evidence I give it to them.

Alice: There is systemic racism in the US policing and justice system, and I have a plan to fix that.
Bob: What do you mean by "Racism"?

Alice: ***insert 20 minute historical review of racism in America***

Bob: But weren't the Irish slaves, too?  They're white, it sounds like it wasn't about skin color.

Alice: ***insert 30 minute explanation about the difference between chattel slavery and indentured servitude***

Bob: Yeah, but they were white, right?

Alice: ***insert 40 minute diatribe about the social construction of "whiteness", and who is allowed to be white***

Bob: So what makes it "Systemic"?




At this point, Alice has spent an hour and a half talking, and never got to the main issue at hand.  And this was precisely what Bob wanted to happen.  Bob is Sea-Lioning.

That is indeed sealioning with the addition of weaponized what-about-ism... which makes me wonder if they're inseparable if sealioning is to be an effective strategy.

[The Johnny]

Obidex thinks insincere requests for information are fine.

I think you all know what this means.

If your whole approach to the world hasn't already been gone over ten billion times then you're probably not going to feel like it's been gone over ten billion times when somebody asks about it. I'm absolutely delighted when someone asks me to explain how things work. I don't understand what sea lioning is - if somebody asks for evidence I give it to them. if you're so exhausted by your own worldview maybe that's something you should consider. and by "your" I mean, reading the topic here, it's clear we're talking about truths that have nothing to do with your own conjecture.

What do you mean by exhausted by your own worldview?

[Doktor Howl]

if you're so exhausted by your own worldview maybe that's something you should consider.

Maybe you should kiss my ass until it blisters.

[POFP]

If your whole approach to the world hasn't already been gone over ten billion times then you're probably not going to feel like it's been gone over ten billion times when somebody asks about it. I'm absolutely delighted when someone asks me to explain how things work. I don't understand what sea lioning is - if somebody asks for evidence I give it to them. if you're so exhausted by your own worldview maybe that's something you should consider. and by "your" I mean, reading the topic here, it's clear we're talking about truths that have nothing to do with your own conjecture.

What do you mean by exhausted by your own worldview?

This.

I mean, are we insisting that our worldviews should be simplistic enough to be described with little effort or energy? Because that's how you get InfoWars and ZeroHedge.

If your understanding of the world is easy to explain, it's probably worthless.

And I'm not talking about concision, of course. If there are concepts within your world view that can be explained with less words and effort, accurately, that should be the goal. But when you're talking about complex topics like the ones brought up previously, there aren't usually simple ways to explain it. Hence the need for people to do actual Research to understand all the intricacies and nuance. Over-simplification of those intricacies results in shitty arguments that turn opponents away for good. I would know - I'm a fucking professional at shitty arguments and making opponents hate me.

[Doktor Howl]

If your whole approach to the world hasn't already been gone over ten billion times then you're probably not going to feel like it's been gone over ten billion times when somebody asks about it. I'm absolutely delighted when someone asks me to explain how things work. I don't understand what sea lioning is - if somebody asks for evidence I give it to them. if you're so exhausted by your own worldview maybe that's something you should consider. and by "your" I mean, reading the topic here, it's clear we're talking about truths that have nothing to do with your own conjecture.

What do you mean by exhausted by your own worldview?

This.

I mean, are we insisting that our worldviews should be simplistic enough to be described with little effort or energy? Because that's how you get InfoWars and ZeroHedge.

If your understanding of the world is easy to explain, it's probably worthless.

And I'm not talking about concision, of course. If there are concepts within your world view that can be explained with less words and effort, accurately, that should be the goal. But when you're talking about complex topics like the ones brought up previously, there aren't usually simple ways to explain it. Hence the need for people to do actual Research to understand all the intricacies and nuance. Over-simplification of those intricacies results in shitty arguments that turn opponents away for good. I would know - I'm a fucking professional at shitty arguments and making opponents hate me.

"Explain to me why illegals being thrown into cages bothers you when you're not an illegal."

This question, asked 50 times per day.

[The Johnny]

"Explain to me patiently, throughly and in a civil manner why me calling <<Antifa>> a fascist organization, while im promoting authoritarianism and social exclusion is a flawed proposition?"

[POFP]

If your whole approach to the world hasn't already been gone over ten billion times then you're probably not going to feel like it's been gone over ten billion times when somebody asks about it. I'm absolutely delighted when someone asks me to explain how things work. I don't understand what sea lioning is - if somebody asks for evidence I give it to them. if you're so exhausted by your own worldview maybe that's something you should consider. and by "your" I mean, reading the topic here, it's clear we're talking about truths that have nothing to do with your own conjecture.

What do you mean by exhausted by your own worldview?

This.

I mean, are we insisting that our worldviews should be simplistic enough to be described with little effort or energy? Because that's how you get InfoWars and ZeroHedge.

If your understanding of the world is easy to explain, it's probably worthless.

And I'm not talking about concision, of course. If there are concepts within your world view that can be explained with less words and effort, accurately, that should be the goal. But when you're talking about complex topics like the ones brought up previously, there aren't usually simple ways to explain it. Hence the need for people to do actual Research to understand all the intricacies and nuance. Over-simplification of those intricacies results in shitty arguments that turn opponents away for good. I would know - I'm a fucking professional at shitty arguments and making opponents hate me.

"Explain to me why illegals being thrown into cages bothers you when you're not an illegal."

This question, asked 50 times per day.

Right

I mean, there's definitely some concepts you can get through in seconds, like "It would be absolutely horrible if I were to be thrown into a cage for trying to escape a country whose ills are mostly the result of the cage-owner's actions. So it would be disgusting of me to support the same thing being done to someone else."

But the problem is, someone else has already over-simplified illegal immigration for a lot of people to: "Illegal mean bad. So illegal immigration bad. So illegal immigrants bad. So cages good."

 - Which, of course, requires less brain activity than the first response, and is therefore the go-to for all knuckle-draggers.

In the same way that Prions are an alternative low-energy state that some molecules can re-position themselves into during initial stabilization, Right-Wing talking points are those that are alternatively low-effort compared to the simple correct answers. And just like in the case of Prions, they can be EXTREMELY toxic and contagious.

[The Johnny]

"Explain to me why illegals being thrown into cages bothers you when you're not an illegal."

This question, asked 50 times per day.

But the problem is, someone else has already over-simplified illegal immigration for a lot of people to: "Illegal mean bad. So illegal immigration bad. So illegal immigrants bad. So cages good."

Well i actually have taken up a very sick hobby, which is arguing with people in 9gag posts... at first i tried speaking like a human being, but with those fascist, white-supremacist incels you CANT. So what did i resort to? Basic propositions in less than 6 words.

Following your example, what would i answer? "MEXICAN BAD, CHEAP LABOUR GOOD"

This style of response is of course, a response to bad faith arguments, which is an evolution of the "Ok boomer" response millenials and the youglings have created... the "Ok boomer" argument in synthesis is "You're just a fucking dinosaur that is detached from current social reality and adaptation to technology" and just dismisses the oppositions argument without even engaging with it.

But this other form of arguing does engage the opposition, frames the debate, and cuts thru the bullshit to get to the core issue.

[Doktor Howl]

"Explain to me why illegals being thrown into cages bothers you when you're not an illegal."

This question, asked 50 times per day.

But the problem is, someone else has already over-simplified illegal immigration for a lot of people to: "Illegal mean bad. So illegal immigration bad. So illegal immigrants bad. So cages good."

Well i actually have taken up a very sick hobby, which is arguing with people in 9gag posts... at first i tried speaking like a human being, but with those fascist, white-supremacist incels you CANT. So what did i resort to? Basic propositions in less than 6 words.

Following your example, what would i answer? "MEXICAN BAD, CHEAP LABOUR GOOD"

This style of response is of course, a response to bad faith arguments, which is an evolution of the "Ok boomer" response millenials and the youglings have created... the "Ok boomer" argument in synthesis is "You're just a fucking dinosaur that is detached from current social reality and adaptation to technology" and just dismisses the oppositions argument without even engaging with it.

But this other form of arguing does engage the opposition, frames the debate, and cuts thru the bullshit to get to the core issue.

I gave up trying to positively influence people years ago.

Now I just want to make a bagger too angry to sleep.

[POFP]

"Explain to me why illegals being thrown into cages bothers you when you're not an illegal."

This question, asked 50 times per day.

But the problem is, someone else has already over-simplified illegal immigration for a lot of people to: "Illegal mean bad. So illegal immigration bad. So illegal immigrants bad. So cages good."

Well i actually have taken up a very sick hobby, which is arguing with people in 9gag posts... at first i tried speaking like a human being, but with those fascist, white-supremacist incels you CANT. So what did i resort to? Basic propositions in less than 6 words.

Following your example, what would i answer? "MEXICAN BAD, CHEAP LABOUR GOOD"

This style of response is of course, a response to bad faith arguments, which is an evolution of the "Ok boomer" response millenials and the youglings have created... the "Ok boomer" argument in synthesis is "You're just a fucking dinosaur that is detached from current social reality and adaptation to technology" and just dismisses the oppositions argument without even engaging with it.

But this other form of arguing does engage the opposition, frames the debate, and cuts thru the bullshit to get to the core issue.

 

That actually sounds like a pretty effective strategy for the simpler topics. Might take that for a spin.

That likely would have been effective when I was calling Bootlickers out as Communists when they brought up regulating what Facebook/Twitter can say/block in response to the Hunter Biden story suppression. They immediately went to "So you agree that we can turn down gays when they apply for marriage?"

There's an obvious difference this argument ignores, and "OHH OKAY GAYS AND INTERNET POSTS SAME THING. BIG SORRY FOR CONFUSION." would have been much more effective at exposing that than the 2-page rant on Constitutional Rights and Legal Precedent I gave instead, that they clearly ignored in its entirety.

[LMNO]

There's also this:

Alice: There is systemic racism in the US policing and justice system, and I have a plan to fix that.
Bob: What do you mean by "Racism"?
Alice: ***insert 20 minute historical review of racism in America***
Alice: There is systemic racism in the US policing and justice system, and I have a plan to fix that.
Chris: What do you mean by "Racism"?
Alice: ***insert 20 minute historical review of racism in America***
Alice: There is systemic racism in the US policing and justice system, and I have a plan to fix that.
Dave: What do you mean by "Racism"?
Alice: ***insert 20 minute historical review of racism in America***
Alice: There is systemic racism in the US policing and justice system, and I have a plan to fix that.
Elias: What do you mean by "Racism"?
Alice: ***insert 20 minute historical review of racism in America***
Alice: There is systemic racism in the US policing and justice system, and I have a plan to fix that.
Fred: What do you mean by "Racism"?
Alice: ***insert 20 minute historical review of racism in America***
Alice: There is systemic racism in the US policing and justice system, and I have a plan to fix that.
Greg: What do you mean by "Racism"?
Alice: ***insert 20 minute historical review of racism in America***
Alice: There is systemic racism in the US policing and justice system, and I have a plan to fix that.
Howard: What do you mean by "Racism"?
Alice: ***insert 20 minute historical review of racism in America***
Alice: There is systemic racism in the US policing and justice system, and I have a plan to fix that.
Irving: What do you mean by "Racism"?
Alice: ***insert 20 minute historical review of racism in America***
Alice: There is systemic racism in the US policing and justice system, and I have a plan to fix that.
Jeff: What do you mean by "Racism"?
Alice: ***insert 20 minute historical review of racism in America***
Alice: There is systemic racism in the US policing and justice system, and I have a plan to fix that.
Kevin: What do you mean by "Racism"?
Alice: ***insert 20 minute historical review of racism in America***
Alice: There is systemic racism in the US policing and justice system, and I have a plan to fix that.
Larry: What do you mean by "Racism"?
Alice: ***insert 20 minute historical review of racism in America***
Alice: There is systemic racism in the US policing and justice system, and I have a plan to fix that.
Mike: What do you mean by "Racism"?
Alice: ***insert 20 minute historical review of racism in America***
Alice: There is systemic racism in the US policing and justice system, and I have a plan to fix that.
Otto: What do you mean by "Racism"?
Alice: ***insert 20 minute historical review of racism in America***
Alice: There is systemic racism in the US policing and justice system, and I have a plan to fix that.
Pete: What do you mean by "Racism"?
Alice: ***insert 20 minute historical review of racism in America***
Alice: There is systemic racism in the US policing and justice system, and I have a plan to fix that.
QANON: What do you mean by "Racism"?
Alice: ***insert 20 minute historical review of racism in America***
Alice: There is systemic racism in the US policing and justice system, and I have a plan to fix that.
Russ: What do you mean by "Racism"?
Alice: ***insert 20 minute historical review of racism in America***
Alice: There is systemic racism in the US policing and justice system, and I have a plan to fix that.
Steve: What do you mean by "Racism"?
Alice: ***insert 20 minute historical review of racism in America***
Alice: There is systemic racism in the US policing and justice system, and I have a plan to fix that.
Trevor: What do you mean by "Racism"?
Alice: ***insert 20 minute historical review of racism in America***
Alice: There is systemic racism in the US policing and justice system, and I have a plan to fix that.
Usef: What do you mean by "Racism"?
Alice: ***insert 20 minute historical review of racism in America***
Alice: There is systemic racism in the US policing and justice system, and I have a plan to fix that.
Victor: What do you mean by "Racism"?
Alice: ***insert 20 minute historical review of racism in America***
Alice: There is systemic racism in the US policing and justice system, and I have a plan to fix that.
Wes: What do you mean by "Racism"?
Alice: ***insert 20 minute historical review of racism in America***
Alice: There is systemic racism in the US policing and justice system, and I have a plan to fix that.
Xander: What do you mean by "Racism"?
Alice: ***insert 20 minute historical review of racism in America***
Alice: There is systemic racism in the US policing and justice system, and I have a plan to fix that.
Yeardly: What do you mean by "Racism"?
Alice: ***insert 20 minute historical review of racism in America***
Alice: There is systemic racism in the US policing and justice system, and I have a plan to fix that.
Zed: What do you mean by "Racism"?
Alice: ***insert 20 minute historical review of racism in America***

[The Johnny]

That actually sounds like a pretty effective strategy for the simpler topics. Might take that for a spin.

That likely would have been effective when I was calling Bootlickers out as Communists when they brought up regulating what Facebook/Twitter can say/block in response to the Hunter Biden story suppression. They immediately went to "So you agree that we can turn down gays when they apply for marriage?"

There's an obvious difference this argument ignores, and "OHH OKAY GAYS AND INTERNET POSTS SAME THING. BIG SORRY FOR CONFUSION." would have been much more effective at exposing that than the 2-page rant on Constitutional Rights and Legal Precedent I gave instead, that they clearly ignored in its entirety.

"BIG GOVERNMENT BAD, PATERNALISM GOOD"

aaand:

"CIVIL RIGHTS BAD"

Part of it is translating what theyre saying into caveman speech and exposing an existing incongruent dialectic, without misrepresenting it.

Ill try to keep tihs thread in the back of my mind and ill share some 9gag experiences if i find new ones or i remember some.