"It's not my job to educate you" - asymmetries in accessibility

[lexi]

In the past I've tried to dream up a meme to redeem the supreme-icists. It didn't work. It wasn't work. It was fun, obviously - it was masturbation after all.

Most minds I've met tightly clinging to an ideology are locked into it by a mixture of unaddressed trauma and love and fear of losing access to individuals within the tribal family which feeds upon and replicates via upholding the ideology. You can't touch this with a sandwich board and megaphone and a busy street corner. Neither can you defeat fascism with biting wit and excellent font placement.

The hard work is work. It's engaging one-on-one, getting to know deplorable people, improving their lives in tangible ways like freelance social work pirates. Healing as much trauma as possible dangerously selflessly without and before expecting them to back out of the only corner they know.

And I certainly don't have time for any of that.

[The Johnny]

Things that any well-studied and well-trained therapist could manage to do without even needing to resort to anything unethical like brainwashing.

But those types of people avoid any kind of introspection or psychic work like the plague (well, they don't actually even avoid the plague like the plague, but you know what i mean).

[Q. G. Pennyworth]

Its also worth asking the question "where is this energy best put to use?" Because, frankly, saving nazis from themselves is less worthy a cause than making sure enough brown people have access to the voting booth that politicians just stop listening to nazis. I do not want to put too much energy into making a world where we continue to listen exclusively to white people, but the white people are nicer. That's a personal choice, and I don't spend time shitting on those trying to fight fascism in the hearts of whites, I just recognize it's work and I'd rather work elsewhere.

[lexi]

Things that any well-studied and well-trained therapist could manage to do without even needing to resort to anything unethical like brainwashing.

It's not a scalable answer though - there aren't enough well-trained therapists to do the work necessary. I've had many conversations about applying machine learning to avoid certain mental health barriers.. but I wouldn't be surprised if it takes as long as until 2030 for competent AI therapists to become widely available and accepted.

But those types of people avoid any kind of introspection or psychic work like the plague (well, they don't actually even avoid the plague like the plague, but you know what i mean).

Exactly

Its also worth asking the question "where is this energy best put to use?" Because, frankly, saving nazis from themselves is less worthy a cause than making sure enough brown people have access to the voting booth that politicians just stop listening to nazis. I do not want to put too much energy into making a world where we continue to listen exclusively to white people, but the white people are nicer. That's a personal choice, and I don't spend time shitting on those trying to fight fascism in the hearts of whites, I just recognize it's work and I'd rather work elsewhere.

Same. Both sides of the same shitty sandwich. Inescapably though - it's an awful job and somebody has to do it - so until the problem is solved by an army of competent AI therapists, I vote for non-marginalised white men. As long as education remains a privilege whilst being a right, I find the sentiment "it's not my job to educate you" more problematic than "it's not my job to endlessly debate you".

[Doktor Howl]

Look, this is really simple.  So simple that some iron age hippie figured it out.

"Do not cast your pearls before swine."

If you are dealing with someone that is genuinely trying to learn, and you say "it's not my job to educate you" or "I don't owe you the emotional labor," then you are a shitsack who shouldn't be explaining anything to anyone, because you yourself are counterproductive.  You have nothing to say to anyone; you are not being firm, you're being an asshole.

On the other hand, there is no sense trying to educate someone who is listening just long enough to launch an appeal to ridicule, because they aren't listening.  That is in fact a waste of time and effort that could be more profitably used ridiculing them.

If you can't tell the difference within 2 minutes, then it's back to school for you.  You aren't ready to instruct anyone.

[Fujikoma]

I'll admit, when I first came here I was a shit-sack libertarian, but I did genuinely want to understand. Eris provides however, and provided by tossing me out on my ass with the homeless so I could get a first-hand look at what's really going on. I think it was a necessary growing process. Now I see libertarian views as a danger to the fabric of our society. It's amazing I didn't see it before, really, but I account that to being a thick-skulled lunatic who needed help pulling his head out of his ass.

I'm still here to learn, I just realize I need to say less and lurk more. Shhh, the adults are talking. I know people are hostile to me and, probably with good reason. I've had to go out and carve my own niches where I can fit in, and I have successfully de-radicalized a few normies. If I can do that with a few, I can do it with more, all I need is time. Sadly the numbers are low so, well, unless there's a lot of us trying to do this thing then not much will be done. It takes time and patience to defuse a ticking bomb.

[The Wizard Joseph]

Look, this is really simple.  So simple that some iron age hippie figured it out.

"Do not cast your pearls before swine."

If you are dealing with someone that is genuinely trying to learn, and you say "it's not my job to educate you" or "I don't owe you the emotional labor," then you are a shitsack who shouldn't be explaining anything to anyone, because you yourself are counterproductive.  You have nothing to say to anyone; you are not being firm, you're being an asshole.

On the other hand, there is no sense trying to educate someone who is listening just long enough to launch an appeal to ridicule, because they aren't listening.  That is in fact a waste of time and effort that could be more profitably used ridiculing them.

If you can't tell the difference within 2 minutes, then it's back to school for you.  You aren't ready to instruct anyone.

This.

[Q. G. Pennyworth]

What Doc said

I have a friend who is constantly coming to me with "okay is this problematic?" questions, that he genuinely wants answered and he actually listens and engages and passes the information on to other people in his circles. It's the OPPOSITE of labor to talk with him, even when he's not the wokest guy in the room, because it's good faith and we have a lot of trust in each other.

[Fujikoma]

If you're the wokest guy in the room you have to ask yourself some serious questions. If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him.

[The Wizard Joseph]

If you're the wokest guy in the room you have to ask yourself some serious questions. If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him.

That sounds like Buddha-talk to me.
*stares in motherfuckershutup*

[Fujikoma]

Yes, it's that other guy who is the Buddha, not me. You might call him Lucifer X, I hear he's right down for that sort of shit, me I'm too old.

[lexi]

Yes, it's that other guy who is the Buddha, not me. You might call him Lucifer X, I hear he's right down for that sort of shit, me I'm too old.

Could you educate me regarding this statement? It makes absolutely no sense to me without understanding any of the references.

[Fujikoma]

It was a dumb statement, on many levels, as it was intended to be. Nobody likes that guy for one.

EDIT: It comes back to the Buddha on the Road thing. I was saying I was too old for that sort of shit in response to The Wizard Joseph. There's an old Zen Buddhist saying that "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him", which is like saying "There are no masters anywhere", sort of. It's more a warning to look within the self, and if you see the Buddha in yourself, you need to realize you're quite likely full of shit. Though I suppose it could be taken literally which was why I was like "Yeah, get that other dude, I'm too fucking old for this shit."

EDIT: Asking someone to explain a zen Buddhist quote is almost as backwards as someone trying to explain it. The irony is not lost on me. I get it, it's clever, it's funny, it's quite witty. It also makes me look like a total idiot, not like I needed much help there.

[lexi]

Thanks for taking the time to elaborate. Ok, so on the surface it looks like you have more self-awareness than impulse control. Relatable. My other question would be - where is that energy coming from behind the behaviour pattern that you identify? Is it internally, or the constraints of other peoples rigid expectations of you, messages from Sirius, or something else?

[Fujikoma]

The energy behind my behavior pattern comes from my male inability to admit defeat, would be nice if it weren't a thing, I know, snip snip and it's over. My impulse control is ever a problem. Thanks for recognizing my self-awareness.