Push the button already

[minuspace]

2. i think one fundamental change would be to refocus our attention from productivity and technological progress to efficiency and social progress -

One leads to the other.  Never at a uniform rate, but it's still true.

You aren't anyone's chattel property.
You are not by law bound to the land you live on.
You are not bound by law to a religion.

All of these things were caused or partially caused by increased technology.

Example:  Slavery prior to the invention of the horse collar was an economic necessity, if you wanted food to be available.  Not necessary for profit, but actually necessary.  Further explanation as requested.

Necessary to support (ab)users of what kind of system?

Early agriculture?

Horses and oxen without a horse collar can do the work of 3 men on 7 quarts of wheat.
A man requires one quart of wheat.

Horses or oxen WITH horse collars can do the work of 11 men on 7 quarts of wheat.


So without the horse collar, you had to have humans pulling a plow, because horse and oxen used more grain that could be managed for the amount of work done.

After the horse collar, humans could generate enough excess food to support artisans.  Which is a hell of a lot better than literally hauling a plow.

money shot distributes load well. +10 points

[altered]

Excuse me, I do feelings police too, Johnny, don't you dare take my job title away from me and give all the credit to that two-bit hack  with a fake mustache (there, I said it, it's fucking fake! He takes it off to shit!) and no toenails on his left foot.

AHEM.

Also, there was a dude on this forum who said or quoted I'm not sure who it was or which it was but it was a phrase that was along the lines of "miscommunication is the fault of the sender, not the recipient". You have a responsibility to make your statements clear and unambiguous if you want people to act like they actually are clear and unambiguous. Therefore, the only time you can blame someone for misinterpretation is if it's obviously willful and purposeful, or if you presume them to not understand the words being used.

Unfortunately, there is a willful misinterpretation here, and it's yours, Nyborj. You failed to interpret Howl's post on a basic level.

If an unyoked horse can do three men's work on 7 quarts of wheat, but a man only requires one quart, all we can say is that the man is more efficient because at no point is the amount of wheat PRODUCED fucking qualified. Hell, even if a man produces two quarts of wheat, it's far better to have three men than one horse.

And if you're ONLY talking about a surplus, you are assuming all members of the society in which this is happening were able to work the fields. This was not true even BEFORE agriculture was developed, because we have 40000 year old Neanderthal skeletons showing that an old man was kept alive despite having TB and given a loving burial only after it killed him. Scarring on the rib cage showed he had had serious, "lay your ass out flat on the ground" TB for at least ten years, IIRC. Scarring on the RIBCAGE. BONE SCARS. FROM TB.

So any defense you might have had for ignoring what Howl said in favor of what you wanted him to say? At best, they tell me you aren't qualified for this sort of discussion. At worst, they tell me you were explicitly looking to start some shit, and you did the literally every single stupid newbie thing of picking on the Terrible Old Yeti In The Room.

Shut your hole and take your loss. You're the fuckhead here.

[minuspace]

You know who really had has a heart? Robocop.

[Doktor Howl]

2. i think one fundamental change would be to refocus our attention from productivity and technological progress to efficiency and social progress -

One leads to the other.  Never at a uniform rate, but it's still true.

You aren't anyone's chattel property.
You are not by law bound to the land you live on.
You are not bound by law to a religion.

All of these things were caused or partially caused by increased technology.

Example:  Slavery prior to the invention of the horse collar was an economic necessity, if you wanted food to be available.  Not necessary for profit, but actually necessary.  Further explanation as requested.

Necessary to support (ab)users of what kind of system?

Early agriculture?

Horses and oxen without a horse collar can do the work of 3 men on 7 quarts of wheat.
A man requires one quart of wheat.

Horses or oxen WITH horse collars can do the work of 11 men on 7 quarts of wheat.


So without the horse collar, you had to have humans pulling a plow, because horse and oxen used more grain that could be managed for the amount of work done.

After the horse collar, humans could generate enough excess food to support artisans.  Which is a hell of a lot better than literally hauling a plow.

money shot distributes load well. +10 points

Not sure I understand what you're trying to say.

[minuspace]

It was a smutty joke. Something about all that load being evenly distributed over Nyborj's face. Please advise if I got distracted and missed something, I've been all over the place today.

[Doktor Howl]

It was a smutty joke. Something about all that load being evenly distributed over Nyborj's face. Please advise if I got distracted and missed something, I've been all over the place today.

I noticed.  In any case, that is acceptable.  More than acceptable.

I don't particularly care for people that attempt to dictate how I shall feel or how I will speak, so it would have been acceptable regardless.

[Doktor Howl]

Also, there was a dude on this forum who said or quoted I'm not sure who it was or which it was but it was a phrase that was along the lines of "miscommunication is the fault of the sender, not the recipient". You have a responsibility to make your statements clear and unambiguous if you want people to act like they actually are clear and unambiguous. Therefore, the only time you can blame someone for misinterpretation is if it's obviously willful and purposeful, or if you presume them to not understand the words being used.

It's in horrorology, under communications.

Unfortunately, there is a willful misinterpretation here, and it's yours, Nyborj. You failed to interpret Howl's post on a basic level.

I apparently failed to respond with the ritualistic, unthinking jabber that is required.  What else could he do?  I'm a criminal.

If an unyoked horse can do three men's work on 7 quarts of wheat, but a man only requires one quart, all we can say is that the man is more efficient because at no point is the amount of wheat PRODUCED fucking qualified. Hell, even if a man produces two quarts of wheat, it's far better to have three men than one horse.

Well, I can only blame myself, here.  I failed to break it down to an algebraic statement.

And if you're ONLY talking about a surplus, you are assuming all members of the society in which this is happening were able to work the fields. This was not true even BEFORE agriculture was developed, because we have 40000 year old Neanderthal skeletons showing that an old man was kept alive despite having TB and given a loving burial only after it killed him. Scarring on the rib cage showed he had had serious, "lay your ass out flat on the ground" TB for at least ten years, IIRC. Scarring on the RIBCAGE. BONE SCARS. FROM TB.

I KNOW THAT GUY.  So do you.  He's the one croaking out "fuck youuuuu wheeze hork cough spit" and all his great grandchildren are like "Isn't he GREAT, FOLKS?  GIVE HIM A BIG HAND."  And all he can do is lay there loathing them while they grin behind their hands.

So any defense you might have had for ignoring what Howl said in favor of what you wanted him to say? At best, they tell me you aren't qualified for this sort of discussion. At worst, they tell me you were explicitly looking to start some shit, and you did the literally every single stupid newbie thing of picking on the Terrible Old Yeti In The Room.

It was making me nostalgic, really.

Shut your hole and take your loss. You're the fuckhead here.

The sad thing here is that there is a greater than even chance that he will fuck off somewhere else, where his utterings will be more in line with the group.  Then, of course, when said group has eliminated any actual disagreement (aside, of course, from the usual coterie of alt-right concern trolls that nobody can be arsed to bother), they will begin feeding on themselves.  Then people will split off, deciding that the politics are toxic and boring, leaving said alt-right concern freaks in place.

This happens all the fucking time.  It's the actual strategy of the current decentralized alt-right.  But what can you do about it?  The orthodox left will not deal with the concern trolls because they hate each other more than they hate the right.

After The Great Seriousness of 2015, this is precisely why I can't be arsed being anyone's ally, unless I am friends with any given person in the first place.  Allies are by DEFINITION performative, and it's all really just a gigantic validation wank.

I could be wrong.  He could have the intestinal fortitude to examine his own motivations.  I have no reason to think he lacks the guts.

But that's not how you bet.

[altered]

He has done good work here. I want him to take his loss and own it, not to leave. Being wrong is how you grow.

But I'm not going to give him a way to save face like I might in some other community. That's not how we do here. You sit down, you stare at your plate of fail, and you eat it. The whole thing. We all did it, many a time, and we were better people afterwards. It's deserved and it betters you.

[Nibor the Priest]

I'm sorry I fucked up. Ill advised defensive response follows; maybe best to just skip it.

The sad thing here is that there is a greater than even chance that he will fuck off somewhere else, where his utterings will be more in line with the group.  Then, of course, when said group has eliminated any actual disagreement (aside, of course, from the usual coterie of alt-right concern trolls that nobody can be arsed to bother), they will begin feeding on themselves.

This is a bit rich considering the shitshow I inadvertently started here by disagreeing with Dok.

He has done good work here. I want him to take his loss and own it, not to leave. Being wrong is how you grow.

This is nice to read and I'd like to keep making the things I've made that have been received positively here. I'm trying to figure it out.

[Cramulus]

Look Nyborj, im by no means the greetings committee on the forum nor i can speak for anyone else, but your schtick of being the "feelings police"... that job is already taken by Cramulus, and he's way better at it due to him knowing all parties involved here with the plus of not being condescending in a passive aggressive manner, nor doing some performative virtue signaling.

I'm flattered and all, but it saddens me

cause at some point in this forum's history, we had this vibe where people could dump out a tricky discussion topic, we could all sink our teeth into it and talk through it, and it didn't automatically descend into monkey screeching and ad hominems. We could talk about the idea and not circle into a judgment dogpile around poster. That's what made it fun and worthwhile to explore ideas here.

Now some people may claim that I'm romanticizing PD, that the "Or Kill Me" subforum has always been nasty, and nastiness here is just part of this forums' charm--but I think it's one of the toxic parts of this place. If I wanted that, I could get that literally anywhere else. There are dozens of places I've unfollowed or abandoned becuase they are just gnar gnar gnar and everybody's got a call-out cocked and an itchy trigger finger.

I think the OP is an interesting topic, one I enjoy discussing, but this thread is wayyyy too emotional and judgmental for me to participate. I suspect Vex feels the same way. It's just not fun.

The fact that being FREAKIN DONE with that is seen as, apparently, just this role I play on the forum, "feelings police", and others are chided when they comment on this shit ... I just find it really disheartening. That's all.  I've said my piece and I'm not gonna get into it any further.

[The Johnny]

Look Nyborj, im by no means the greetings committee on the forum nor i can speak for anyone else, but your schtick of being the "feelings police"... that job is already taken by Cramulus, and he's way better at it due to him knowing all parties involved here with the plus of not being condescending in a passive aggressive manner, nor doing some performative virtue signaling.

I'm flattered and all, but it saddens me

cause at some point in this forum's history, we had this vibe where people could dump out a tricky discussion topic, we could all sink our teeth into it and talk through it, and it didn't automatically descend into monkey screeching and ad hominems. We could talk about the idea and not circle into a judgment dogpile around poster. That's what made it fun and worthwhile to explore ideas here.

Now some people may claim that I'm romanticizing PD, that the "Or Kill Me" subforum has always been nasty, and nastiness here is just part of this forums' charm--but I think it's one of the toxic parts of this place. If I wanted that, I could get that literally anywhere else. There are dozens of places I've unfollowed or abandoned becuase they are just gnar gnar gnar and everybody's got a call-out cocked and an itchy trigger finger.

I think the OP is an interesting topic, one I enjoy discussing, but this thread is wayyyy too emotional and judgmental for me to participate. I suspect Vex feels the same way. It's just not fun.

The fact that being FREAKIN DONE with that is seen as, apparently, just this role I play on the forum, "feelings police", and others are chided when they comment on this shit ... I just find it really disheartening. That's all.  I've said my piece and I'm not gonna get into it any further.

If it makes you feel any better Cram, I dont think you being more positive vibe, spiritual, thoughtful of others feelings and the charming side of Discordia is bad... that's just not my discordia, and that is ok, discordia is an ecosystem in a sense and you provide balance. It's not that you "just do this one thing" and are unidimensional.

I was presenting you as an example of how "being concerned about others and being decent to them" is done right in contrast to whatever the hell this random new guy thinks he's doing... all this, i dont know if its the appropriate term, "bleeding heart liberal" schtick is just so fucking cringe and condescending, and I even tried to ignore it, but it just keeps coming up again and again, privileged white boy saviour syndrome is so disgusting.

And I can't apologize for contributing to derailing the thread - we've all done it and it's been done to all of us, for good and bad reasons, and its not the first time nor will be the last time.

[Doktor Howl]

This is a bit rich considering the shitshow I inadvertently started here by disagreeing with Dok.

Well, there's these two words.  "Here" and "Dok".

If Discordianism was the human body and Discordians were the organs/parts in that body, I would be the tailbone.  Mostly ass and existing only to cause agony.

[Doktor Howl]

Look Nyborj, im by no means the greetings committee on the forum nor i can speak for anyone else, but your schtick of being the "feelings police"... that job is already taken by Cramulus, and he's way better at it due to him knowing all parties involved here with the plus of not being condescending in a passive aggressive manner, nor doing some performative virtue signaling.

I'm flattered and all, but it saddens me

cause at some point in this forum's history, we had this vibe where people could dump out a tricky discussion topic, we could all sink our teeth into it and talk through it, and it didn't automatically descend into monkey screeching and ad hominems. We could talk about the idea and not circle into a judgment dogpile around poster. That's what made it fun and worthwhile to explore ideas here.

Now some people may claim that I'm romanticizing PD, that the "Or Kill Me" subforum has always been nasty, and nastiness here is just part of this forums' charm--but I think it's one of the toxic parts of this place. If I wanted that, I could get that literally anywhere else. There are dozens of places I've unfollowed or abandoned becuase they are just gnar gnar gnar and everybody's got a call-out cocked and an itchy trigger finger.

I think the OP is an interesting topic, one I enjoy discussing, but this thread is wayyyy too emotional and judgmental for me to participate. I suspect Vex feels the same way. It's just not fun.

The fact that being FREAKIN DONE with that is seen as, apparently, just this role I play on the forum, "feelings police", and others are chided when they comment on this shit ... I just find it really disheartening. That's all.  I've said my piece and I'm not gonna get into it any further.

I tend to think of you as the voice of decency.  I can hear you, but it makes no sense.

Sort of like having Mr Rogers try to talk Paul Tibbets from dropping the nuke on Hiroshima.  Every single one of Mr Rogers' arguments are compassionate and based on logic but that's Japan over there and this is Paul Tibbets over here and if compassion and logic worked all the time, everyone would do it.

[The Johnny]

And for the record, regarding the OP.

Inequality and injustice have been the eternal trend of human history, i can agree with that, but at least we can say we didn't get eaten alive in our crib by a sabertooth, nor did we die from being overworked and famined at 6 years of age due to working 20 daily hours, 7 days a week in a carbon mine.

[minuspace]

I think Nyborj should be flattered cause he got jumped real early and not even for that long.