Metzger & Rushkoff: "Do They Owe Us A Living?"

[Cramulus]

Here's a podcast where two Gen X counterculture veterans (Metzger and Rushkoff -- see also: Disinfo Con) look back at the cultural battlefield and go "did we win? I honestly can't tell"

If you don't know who Metzger and Rushkoff are -- in the "counterculture" family tree, these guys are cousins to us Discordians - they were inspired by Robert Anton Wilson & that universe of writers & ideas.

I ENJOYED IT.

https://teamhuman.fm/episodes/ep-158-richard-metzger-do-they-owe-us-a-living/

[Freeky]

i've paused it but so far a couple things that stood out to me:

"the kids on tiktok aren't interested in a counterculture, they're interested in 17 million views"

this is from a genXer who claims to have won the counterculture war, and now they're the overculture, but this guy doesn't seem to get that tiktok is it's own sort of culture, like the guy he has on says, but more than that i feel like he wouldn't understand what counterculture would be in a world where he and his friends "won." it's like. tiktoks can be a valid form of artistic expression, and i don't think this guy has interacted with the medium at all, i feel like he's just made up his mind about it and dismissed it as unworthy, which feels like a reaction that would be typical of someone of the overculture, as he mentioned.

what's interesting is that the guy he has on clearly has interacted with tiktok, and gets the kids (who are coming of age now) a little bit better - he mentions that they don't want any part of capitalism because there's nothing left, and this is true. it's also true that zoomers are both nihilistic and jaded but also want to enact change, and from what i understand they're trying to go out there and get shit done. looking at things like the protest walkouts at high schools across the country in response to the bigger, more highly reported school shootings, i feel like they're definitely trying and not just looking for fame.

[Freeky]

with regard to the bit about how they're giving psychiatric drugs to people at a younger age, and it's preventing artists from having like some sort of specific spark, i feel like even this guy is falling into the trap of having a certain set of criteria for "counterculture" and because he doesn't see it, it doesn't count.

(i'm gonna just keep editing this post as i have thoughts)

they both have a weird fixation on a physical place for some kind of optimal bohemia, which kind of shows how out of touch they are. the internet plays such a huge role in hosting artistic expression now, and of being where people congregate with like-minded people. there is no One True City, there's not going to be any migration, it doesn't matter how charismatic people are - with the exorbitant costs of moving and living away from home, kids are just going to turn more and more to people on the internet, and i think that's a good thing because it allows for people of much different backgrounds and regions to come together more easily.

"periods of high social tensions tends to produce great art" i've seen this sentiment bandied about on twitter, and while this is the least offensive way i've heard it yet it still infuriates me. the other times i've seen it it's been more of a context of excitement, even expectation. you want great art? fine. go fucking make it yourself. don't wait for hundreds of people to get murdered and then stick out your hands asking for something to consume.
here's a video that negates the assertion that periods of social strife equals great art: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehbgAGlrVKE

"harry potter-" big oof, though i guess this was before the latest JKR fuck up.

they definitely have some strong points about conspiracy theories only being effective on the dumb, or something to that effect, and that if you don't trust anyone in power, anything else is possible and even preferrable.

the rage and disgust when talking about some guy who gets a bonus for taking away the bonus of people who have to work in hospitals and such right now is real.

man the guest is just so close to getting that the counterculture doesn't have to be in person anymore, he even said "you need access to these minds," i'm out here like my dude, my guy, having your meat suit next to someone else's meat suit doesn't mean you're going to have access to anyone's mind

[Cramulus]

i've paused it but so far a couple things that stood out to me:

"the kids on tiktok aren't interested in a counterculture, they're interested in 17 million views"

this is from a genXer who claims to have won the counterculture war, and now they're the overculture, but this guy doesn't seem to get that tiktok is it's own sort of culture, like the guy he has on says, but more than that i feel like he wouldn't understand what counterculture would be in a world where he and his friends "won." it's like. tiktoks can be a valid form of artistic expression, and i don't think this guy has interacted with the medium at all, i feel like he's just made up his mind about it and dismissed it as unworthy, which feels like a reaction that would be typical of someone of the overculture, as he mentioned.

what's interesting is that the guy he has on clearly has interacted with tiktok, and gets the kids (who are coming of age now) a little bit better - he mentions that they don't want any part of capitalism because there's nothing left, and this is true. it's also true that zoomers are both nihilistic and jaded but also want to enact change, and from what i understand they're trying to go out there and get shit done. looking at things like the protest walkouts at high schools across the country in response to the bigger, more highly reported school shootings, i feel like they're definitely trying and not just looking for fame.

Yeah, it's amusing because these guys are a little out of touch. A lot of these things are a very Gen X perspective, kind of lost some of the nuance. Like at one point they talk about how millenials and Gen Z aren't very neurotic, when you talk to them, they seem pretty well adjusted (as compared, I guess, to the highly medicated and intoxicated Generation X at age 20?). And I don't know about that!

But I do think they're right that a 'counterculture' used to exist in a different form. Many of the things that were resisting the mainstream culture of the 80s-90s were subsumed and converted into the mainstream. (we have a great thread somewhere on this forum about this process, discussing the book Ourspace by Christine Harold)

I think they're saying that if you gave TikTok to disaffected 90s kids, you would probably end up with something that has more punk-rock energy. In the 90s, kids were very wary of "the system" which would convert us all into necktie wearing adult baby boomers. TikTok is part of that system. Are there punk bands tearing up tiktok culture? If so, I'm probably too old for them to be on my radar.

Metzger and Rushkoff hold up Occultists as a kind of weather vane -- that the people doing weird rituals to change the world used to be kinda removed from specific political factions. Yes many individual occultists had a valence, but in general, mysticism was not necessarily political. But now we've got witches hexing Trump, and we've got right wing kek-wielding meme magic. They're saying that the occult used to be outside of the system, giving it the finger, but now it's an interior part of the machine. Witches For Bernie, and all that.

I think part of what they're missing is that unlike the 90s, we're living in a time that demands a specific political response. "Fighting the system" used to be a vague anthem. In 2020, most of that energy exists within the democratic socialist camp. It's the progressive, anti-centrist energy. Fighting the system eventually produced a specific political energy.

And today, that energy is subjected to the interior pressures that punks used to be kinda wary of. For example, part of the 90s-era rebellion was a skepticism of big brands and big corporations; all those cyberpunk values. My impression of generation Z is that they are a bit more enthralled by that stuff - to the point that much personal expression has adopted the same logic as brand management. TikTok et al are (in many ways) a means of developing a personal brand. This means that identity and expression is more subject to market forces than it ever was - this is something that 90s grunge kids would have considered "fake" (see also: "phony"). Didn't the Like Button commodify personal expression in some ways? Are we just stuck with zuccbook because you need social media in order to resist anything? Isn't it weird how the rules of zuccbook (ie the Algorithm) (ie how facebook chooses what you see) are completely opaque and nobody cares?

[Freeky]

i've paused it but so far a couple things that stood out to me:

"the kids on tiktok aren't interested in a counterculture, they're interested in 17 million views"

this is from a genXer who claims to have won the counterculture war, and now they're the overculture, but this guy doesn't seem to get that tiktok is it's own sort of culture, like the guy he has on says, but more than that i feel like he wouldn't understand what counterculture would be in a world where he and his friends "won." it's like. tiktoks can be a valid form of artistic expression, and i don't think this guy has interacted with the medium at all, i feel like he's just made up his mind about it and dismissed it as unworthy, which feels like a reaction that would be typical of someone of the overculture, as he mentioned.

what's interesting is that the guy he has on clearly has interacted with tiktok, and gets the kids (who are coming of age now) a little bit better - he mentions that they don't want any part of capitalism because there's nothing left, and this is true. it's also true that zoomers are both nihilistic and jaded but also want to enact change, and from what i understand they're trying to go out there and get shit done. looking at things like the protest walkouts at high schools across the country in response to the bigger, more highly reported school shootings, i feel like they're definitely trying and not just looking for fame.

Yeah, it's amusing because these guys are a little out of touch. A lot of these things are a very Gen X perspective, kind of lost some of the nuance. Like at one point they talk about how millenials and Gen Z aren't very neurotic, when you talk to them, they seem pretty well adjusted (as compared, I guess, to the highly medicated and intoxicated Generation X at age 20?). And I don't know about that!

But I do think they're right that a 'counterculture' used to exist in a different form. Many of the things that were resisting the mainstream culture of the 80s-90s were subsumed and converted into the mainstream. (we have a great thread somewhere on this forum about this process, discussing the book Ourspace by Christine Harold)

I think they're saying that if you gave TikTok to disaffected 90s kids, you would probably end up with something that has more punk-rock energy. In the 90s, kids were very wary of "the system" which would convert us all into necktie wearing adult baby boomers. TikTok is part of that system. Are there punk bands tearing up tiktok culture? If so, I'm probably too old for them to be on my radar.

see, my take on demanding punk music as the final form of True Counterculture is that it's expecting the counterculture to be formulaic. if it's formulaic and static, doesn't that take the teeth out of the point of counterculture? i think that a lot of the content on there is memes taken to performance art, like the weird dance videos or the thing where someone puts a hoodie on like pants and pants over their head and shoes on their hands and dances through a space their SO is working in, all to the same sound clip. this, i feel, is both the art and the environment. it's like value signaling, and following someone and hitting that like button is the equivalent of saying "yes, i hear you, i am here, we are together and understand each other." from there, we see that twitter and facebook and snapchat and youtube can give those creators who build their brand on their own being a platform to talk about things that are important to them, or not as it might be. people who like and subscribe and follow, they're more likely to be swayed on points where they're fence-sitters, simply because the people they like have espoused whatever it is. it's human nature to do so, possibly.

"Metzger and Rushkoff hold up Occultists as a kind of weather vane -- that the people doing weird rituals to change the world used to be kinda removed from specific political factions. Yes many individual occultists had a valence, but in general, mysticism was not necessarily political. But now we've got witches hexing Trump, and we've got right wing kek-wielding meme magic. They're saying that the occult used to be outside of the system, giving it the finger, but now it's an interior part of the machine. Witches For Bernie, and all that.

I think part of what they're missing is that unlike the 90s, we're living in a time that demands a specific political response. "Fighting the system" used to be a vague anthem. In 2020, most of that energy exists within the democratic socialist camp. It's the progressive, anti-centrist energy. Fighting the system eventually produced a specific political energy.

i gotta be honest here, this is a fascinating nugget of the conversation (and also an interesting take) that i haven't had enough sleep before forming an opinion on. i'll get back to this.

And today, that energy is subjected to the interior pressures that punks used to be kinda wary of. For example, part of the 90s-era rebellion was a skepticism of big brands and big corporations; all those cyberpunk values. My impression of generation Z is that they are a bit more enthralled by that stuff - to the point that much personal expression has adopted the same logic as brand management. TikTok et al are (in many ways) a means of developing a personal brand. This means that identity and expression is more subject to market forces than it ever was - this is something that 90s grunge kids would have considered "fake" (see also: "phony"). Didn't the Like Button commodify personal expression in some ways? Are we just stuck with zuccbook because you need social media in order to resist anything? Isn't it weird how the rules of zuccbook (ie the Algorithm) (ie how facebook chooses what you see) are completely opaque and nobody cares?

most of this, see above. the bit about commodification of personal expression being inherently bad is something that doesn't quite sit right with me but i'm going to need sleep and a good long think to understand why.

[minuspace]

What I got from this is that we need an equivalent of the electric cool test, or whatever the bus thing was. No cell phones. Just one professional photographer.

[Freeky]

I think I might be misinterpreting your point, but aside from that I wanna bring to the discussion that we're almost an entire generation post-9/11.  like Lindsey Ellis in the video I posted points out, the music we had at that time was either jingoistic Kool Aid drinking dick sucking odes to our military, or aggressively nonsensical bullshit, or it was indie punk that beat you over the head with the point. After that it was "everything sucks but it doesn't matter"

Im willing to bet that on some level, after being raised in such a musical landscape, nonsense and bullshit has taken the place of punk music, because if you didn't agree that the govt was doing the right thing, the only safe way to express that was to ignore it and live your life as best you could.

[Elder Iptuous]

That makes a lot of sense....

[minuspace]

I puted a rare French Tenno punk cheese in deh suu closet. I have lots.

[Cramulus]

I puted a rare French Tenno punk cheese in deh suu closet. I have lots.

*holds up a spork*

[Freeky]

I think they're saying that if you gave TikTok to disaffected 90s kids, you would probably end up with something that has more punk-rock energy. In the 90s, kids were very wary of "the system" which would convert us all into necktie wearing adult baby boomers. TikTok is part of that system. Are there punk bands tearing up tiktok culture? If so, I'm probably too old for them to be on my radar.

ok so i completely misunderstood what i was reading this morning, and i agree with what you're saying here.

Metzger and Rushkoff hold up Occultists as a kind of weather vane -- that the people doing weird rituals to change the world used to be kinda removed from specific political factions. Yes many individual occultists had a valence, but in general, mysticism was not necessarily political. But now we've got witches hexing Trump, and we've got right wing kek-wielding meme magic. They're saying that the occult used to be outside of the system, giving it the finger, but now it's an interior part of the machine. Witches For Bernie, and all that.

i feel like the prevalence of occultism in people who are getting involved in politics is more due to the fact that politics has intruded upon the sphere of personal. i don't remember what the 90's used to be like, politically, because i barely have access to those memories. what i can say now is that with the revelation of so many people in politics being sexual predators, or closeted gay/bi who pass deeply harmful legislation to the lgbtq+ community, people are just deeply disgusted, offended, and regularly abused and traumatized through the passing of these toxic laws by these other people, it's less about bringing the occult into the machine, and more about the machine having become so pervasive that almost no one can be removed from it, and so occultists do what they feel they need to do in order to live their lives with a cleaner conscience. witches for bernie! he hasn't raped anyone that we know of! let's go hex trump - nobody's going to indict this bastard, we need to do something. that style of thing.

And today, that energy is subjected to the interior pressures that punks used to be kinda wary of. For example, part of the 90s-era rebellion was a skepticism of big brands and big corporations; all those cyberpunk values. My impression of generation Z is that they are a bit more enthralled by that stuff - to the point that much personal expression has adopted the same logic as brand management. TikTok et al are (in many ways) a means of developing a personal brand. This means that identity and expression is more subject to market forces than it ever was - this is something that 90s grunge kids would have considered "fake" (see also: "phony"). Didn't the Like Button commodify personal expression in some ways? Are we just stuck with zuccbook because you need social media in order to resist anything? Isn't it weird how the rules of zuccbook (ie the Algorithm) (ie how facebook chooses what you see) are completely opaque and nobody cares?

that's an interesting take! from what i understand, it's not that people don't care about how shitty and murky ToS's and algorithms are, it's just that speaking to the people in charge does literally fuck all.

what i find most interesting is how kids and young adults have really leaned into putting themselves out there. it's probably not thought as much of "branding" and "marketing," because i feel like a lot of it has to do with finding their tribe, rather than selling a product. the climate of "nobody can do anything even slightly problematic or else they're Cancelled Forever" is possibly the dumbest sentiment that's running through what looks to be everyone, but there are some corners of youtube and tiktok that are wholesome and supportive communities - these people tend to flock towards creators who are themselves wholesome and honest. i agree that the market forces, the audience, are super intense but it can make people better than they started out as, and perhaps wouldn't have had the opportunity to examine themselves without that ablating scrutiny.

for example, there's a let's player called jacksepticeye. he's got a reputation among viewers for being honest, living his true self, being willing to change, and seeking out experiences (through games) that he wouldn't otherwise have, and his reputation among other let's players is he's a sweet, loving guy with a wholesome youtube community. he's always been a sweet and charismatic guy, but his draw is that he's not afraid to interact with people on youtube, twitter, and tumblr - all places where if you make a mistake, everyone knows instantly and they'll hate you for it. he's managed to survive because he took these market forces, as you say, and used them to craft a better product, which is a person with less ableist, racist, homophobic nonsense cluttering his brain, and through the power of communal experience (watching videos and liking subscribing commenting), has forged a solid community with a healthy attitude towards mistakes and emotions and interpersonal interaction.

[Pergamos]

i've paused it but so far a couple things that stood out to me:

"the kids on tiktok aren't interested in a counterculture, they're interested in 17 million views"

this is from a genXer who claims to have won the counterculture war, and now they're the overculture, but this guy doesn't seem to get that tiktok is it's own sort of culture, like the guy he has on says, but more than that i feel like he wouldn't understand what counterculture would be in a world where he and his friends "won." it's like. tiktoks can be a valid form of artistic expression, and i don't think this guy has interacted with the medium at all, i feel like he's just made up his mind about it and dismissed it as unworthy, which feels like a reaction that would be typical of someone of the overculture, as he mentioned.

what's interesting is that the guy he has on clearly has interacted with tiktok, and gets the kids (who are coming of age now) a little bit better - he mentions that they don't want any part of capitalism because there's nothing left, and this is true. it's also true that zoomers are both nihilistic and jaded but also want to enact change, and from what i understand they're trying to go out there and get shit done. looking at things like the protest walkouts at high schools across the country in response to the bigger, more highly reported school shootings, i feel like they're definitely trying and not just looking for fame.

Yeah, it's amusing because these guys are a little out of touch. A lot of these things are a very Gen X perspective, kind of lost some of the nuance. Like at one point they talk about how millenials and Gen Z aren't very neurotic, when you talk to them, they seem pretty well adjusted (as compared, I guess, to the highly medicated and intoxicated Generation X at age 20?). And I don't know about that!

But I do think they're right that a 'counterculture' used to exist in a different form. Many of the things that were resisting the mainstream culture of the 80s-90s were subsumed and converted into the mainstream. (we have a great thread somewhere on this forum about this process, discussing the book Ourspace by Christine Harold)

I think they're saying that if you gave TikTok to disaffected 90s kids, you would probably end up with something that has more punk-rock energy. In the 90s, kids were very wary of "the system" which would convert us all into necktie wearing adult baby boomers. TikTok is part of that system. Are there punk bands tearing up tiktok culture? If so, I'm probably too old for them to be on my radar.

Metzger and Rushkoff hold up Occultists as a kind of weather vane -- that the people doing weird rituals to change the world used to be kinda removed from specific political factions. Yes many individual occultists had a valence, but in general, mysticism was not necessarily political. But now we've got witches hexing Trump, and we've got right wing kek-wielding meme magic. They're saying that the occult used to be outside of the system, giving it the finger, but now it's an interior part of the machine. Witches For Bernie, and all that.

I think part of what they're missing is that unlike the 90s, we're living in a time that demands a specific political response. "Fighting the system" used to be a vague anthem. In 2020, most of that energy exists within the democratic socialist camp. It's the progressive, anti-centrist energy. Fighting the system eventually produced a specific political energy.

And today, that energy is subjected to the interior pressures that punks used to be kinda wary of. For example, part of the 90s-era rebellion was a skepticism of big brands and big corporations; all those cyberpunk values. My impression of generation Z is that they are a bit more enthralled by that stuff - to the point that much personal expression has adopted the same logic as brand management. TikTok et al are (in many ways) a means of developing a personal brand. This means that identity and expression is more subject to market forces than it ever was - this is something that 90s grunge kids would have considered "fake" (see also: "phony"). Didn't the Like Button commodify personal expression in some ways? Are we just stuck with zuccbook because you need social media in order to resist anything? Isn't it weird how the rules of zuccbook (ie the Algorithm) (ie how facebook chooses what you see) are completely opaque and nobody cares?

My rainbow generation offspring (I wont call them Gen Z, that suggests they are some lesser form of gen X) doesn't use facebook, none of their friends do either.  Facebook looks to me like it pretty much stops at millenials.