D&D and Race

[altered]

Well I guess I need to go fucking read malazan stuff now cause that’s legitimately interesting to me as a perpetually edgy person who is also not a fucking shitbag, great approach it sounds like

[Cain]

When you get an archaeologist/anthropologist writing the series, a lot of the usual fantasy assumptions get smashed hard. Just...don't mind the first book. It was literally his first novel ever. The prose is noticeably better from the second book onwards.

[Pergamos]

I've enjoyed stuff like "The Last ringbearer" or the "Orks" trilogy that examine the possibility that Tolkein's perspective was very biased.  I ran a Fantasy setting for a long time that included humans believing that certain other races were evil, stupid, etc, by nature, but being wrong about it.  Admittedly I did include some racial IQ modifiers, which in hindsight was probably not great.

I think physical differences are part of the fun of fantasy, ogres are obviously stronger than humans, but making anyone dumb or evil by default is lazy and exposes something the GM should probably look at a bit closer.

[Elder Iptuous]

Hmm.
Is it implicit in this that creating a race that is more intelligent, or benevolent, inherently, than the regular humans is problematic as well?

[Cramulus]

No, I don't necessarily think so. The core thing here is to create a safe space for nonwhite players, so the specific thing we're talking about is racism in D&D that is essentially analogous to real world ~1940s racism: Othering people because they don't look like Europeans, or excluding them from 'civilization' because they're tribal and primitive.

Though if this cool-smart-good race is described as intelligent and benevolent because of their pure blood and superior breeding, then yeah, you're wandering into the kingdom of problematic fantasy.

[Cramulus]

Here's a better summary of the discussion:

https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2020/06/dd-wotc-announces-inclusivity-updates-to-orcs-drow-and-vistani.html


WotC's statement:

One of the explicit design goals of 5th edition D&D is to depict humanity in all its beautiful diversity by depicting characters who represent an array of ethnicities, gender identities, sexual orientations, and beliefs. We want everyone to feel at home around the game table and to see positive reflections of themselves within our products. “Human” in D&D means everyone, not just fantasy versions of northern Europeans, and the D&D community is now more diverse than it’s ever been. Throughout the 50-year history of D&D, some of the peoples in the game—orcs and drow being two of the prime examples—have been characterized as monstrous and evil, using descriptions that are painfully reminiscent of how real-world ethnic groups have been and continue to be denigrated. That’s just not right, and it’s not something we believe in. Despite our conscious efforts to the contrary, we have allowed some of those old descriptions to reappear in the game. We recognize that to live our values, we have to do an even better job in handling these issues. If we make mistakes, our priority is to make things right.





We present orcs and drow in a new light in two of our most recent books, Eberron: Rising from the Last War and Explorer’s Guide to Wildemount. In those books, orcs and drow are just as morally and culturally complex as other peoples. We will continue that approach in future books, portraying all the peoples of D&D in relatable ways and making it clear that they are as free as humans to decide who they are and what they do.



They talk about how they've added a sensitivity reader to the editorial team. And how the next printings of Curse of Strahd will remove some of the unfortunate Roma stereotypes from the Vistani characters.

And a new sourcebook coming later this year will incorporate these new attitudes:

Later this year, we will release a product (not yet announced) that offers a way for a player to customize their character’s origin, including the option to change the ability score increases that come from being an elf, a dwarf, or one of D&D’s many other playable folk. This option emphasizes that each person in the game is an individual with capabilities all their own.

[altered]

I feel that last one isn’t totally necessary. Which makes me smile because it hurts nothing and is guaranteed to make chuds shit their pants in public.

Also, it should make some builds more viable, which is cool.

[Cain]

Back when they were first designing Morrowind, they wanted to use "cultural backgrounds" as distinct from your character's appearance. So for example you could be a Bosmer with a Nord background, with all the Nord skill bonuses that would imply (though I don't know if it included the racial powers). The idea being raised among the Nords, of course you're going to know more about how to use axes and wear heavy armour, as per the Nords inclinations in that area.

I always felt that was a more elegant approach, and it's a shame it never got implemented. Hopefully that last option will be something along those lines.

[Junkenstein]

I feel that last one isn’t totally necessary. Which makes me smile because it hurts nothing and is guaranteed to make chuds shit their pants in public.

Also, it should make some builds more viable, which is cool.

There will be many, very niche, low quality crap videos about how this is not OK. Ravenloft people are, shall we say, odd. And low in number. Feels like a trial area to gauge reaction.


And fortunately, being morrowind, there must be a mod for that or very similar by now. Surely.

[altered]

There isn’t, but it would be easy to make one.

[Pergamos]

Hmm.
Is it implicit in this that creating a race that is more intelligent, or benevolent, inherently, than the regular humans is problematic as well?

The stereotypes of Asians and Jews include higher intelligence.  More benevolent might not be problematic but more intelligent definitely is.

[Doktor Howl]

Hmm.
Is it implicit in this that creating a race that is more intelligent, or benevolent, inherently, than the regular humans is problematic as well?

The stereotypes of Asians and Jews include higher intelligence.  More benevolent might not be problematic but more intelligent definitely is.

Holy fuck 

[Elder Iptuous]

Hmm.
Is it implicit in this that creating a race that is more intelligent, or benevolent, inherently, than the regular humans is problematic as well?

The stereotypes of Asians and Jews include higher intelligence.  More benevolent might not be problematic but more intelligent definitely is.

Mmm.  So if there are more intelligent races or species, the concomitant observation is that there are less intelligent ones, and that is problematic.  I don't see how it would be less problematic from that standpoint to have implicitly malevolent races or species.

From the people that are calling WotC actions to be hand wringing, I have heard the arguement that there are actual humans of all races represented in the game without having them have a preordained alignment.  Seeing some human race reflected in monsters, they say, is indicative of the accusers racism rather than the game/story itself.  This seems reasonable, and I'm wondering if I'm missing something.

In the WotC announcement, they point that the portrayal of these monsters is painfully reminicent of the way actual human races have been portrayed historically.  Is the only way to deal with this by getting rid of the concept of monsters?  When there are actual human races represented in the game positively?

The obvious joke would be a game where the adventurers come across a troll in the woods, and the adventurers have to make a decision whether to strike a preemptive defensive posture, risking a microaggression against her, or bid the creature a pleasant morning.

[altered]

The answer to your question is simple: look at TES.

Redguards exist, right? Dunmer exist, right? Both are considered highly in the context of the setting, right? So why would Orsimer be a racist caricature (if handled less well than Bethesda has done so far)?

Because of the coding. The same way that any eugenicist species in a scifi setting is automatically coded as Nazi Germany, certain traits make “this race/species our stand in for real world group A”.

Want an on the nose example of that that’s relevant to very recent events?

Goblins and house-elves in Harry Potter are unquestionably racist Jewish and Black caricatures. Harry Potter takes place in the real world, so there are Jewish and Black people.

But the coding is undeniable: goblins are greedy old bastards with long hair and big noses who control the world from within a banking system.

House elves are born-slaves who cannot remember not being enslaved and actually prefer the slave life.

These are ANCIENT racist caricatures. Putting a different name on them to tie them to a fantasy race does NOT separate them from their inherent racism.

More subtle attacks are involved with orcs in D&D, but consider momentarily:

Orc art tends to be of beefy, solemn looking hominids with skin that is darker than white person skin, and Black or Asian features.
Orcs are violent, dimwitted, steal everything they own, and are more a danger to each other than to the adventurers who slaughter them by the hundreds.
Orcs (or related goblinoids, especially hobgoblins) are described as having ape-like features, as being hairy, and are depicted with long monkey-like arms.
Mating with an orc is almost always rape, and always produces a tragic youth who doesn’t know one or both of their parents, is dumb and is given to violence.

It’s fucking racist.

[Elder Iptuous]

I can see that there is truth in that.
We have created monstrous stereotypes for groups of people throughout history.
So when we portray monsters of various types, it automatically conjures up these associations with the peoples that have been painted in that way.
So now it is being said that we should not have monsters of that type, even if the story explicitly deconstructs that image by simultaneously portraying the actual peoples previously depicted in that way in a more realistic and nuanced way.
I don't think I buy it, but I can understand it.