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Started by Junkenstein, July 09, 2020, 06:38:37 PM

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Doktor Howl

Quote from: chaotic neutral observer on January 29, 2023, 06:05:14 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on January 29, 2023, 05:49:34 PM
Quote from: chaotic neutral observer on January 28, 2023, 06:31:37 PM

Why, what have you been hearing?

If I didn't know these two so well, I'd assume that someone strapped them to a chair in front of a Tucker Carlson show (he has gone from screeching about this to "liberating Canada" in the last few days).
Yeah, I was thinking this has the same vibe as the American rhetoric about how socialized health care leads to "DEATH PANELS".

The remaining Koch brother and shitbags like Tucker Carlson and the Fox News daytime programs have put a lot of effort into this exact subject.

If you listen to them, Canada is opening death camps to dispose of unemployed people, elderly people, the mentally ill, and LGBT folks.
Molon Lube

Scribbly

I don't know about Global News to be fair, but I don't think the bias outweighs the quotes from advocates. Even if we assume the people interviewed are lying, and there's a lot of them beyond those two articles, disability advocate groups do seem fairly united in their criticism from what I can see?
I had an existential crisis and all I got was this stupid gender.

Doktor Howl

Quote from: Scribbly on January 29, 2023, 06:37:57 PM
I don't know about Global News to be fair, but I don't think the bias outweighs the quotes from advocates. Even if we assume the people interviewed are lying, and there's a lot of them beyond those two articles, disability advocate groups do seem fairly united in their criticism from what I can see?

Have you looked at the actual text of the law as it is and the proposed expansion?
Molon Lube

Scribbly

Yeah, I mean the bit quoted ITT seems plainly easy to justify it in a case where a condition would be exacerbated by poverty to me?
I had an existential crisis and all I got was this stupid gender.

Doktor Howl

#1099
https://parl.ca/DocumentViewer/en/43-2/bill/C-7/royal-assent

Quote
SUMMARY

This enactment amends the Criminal Code to, among other things,

(a) repeal the provision that requires a person's natural death be reasonably foreseeable in order for them to be eligible for medical assistance in dying;

(b) specify that persons whose sole underlying medical condition is a mental illness are not eligible for medical assistance in dying;

(c) create two sets of safeguards that must be respected before medical assistance in dying may be provided to a person, the application of which depends on whether the person's natural death is reasonably foreseeable;

(d) permit medical assistance in dying to be provided to a person who has been found eligible to receive it, whose natural death is reasonably foreseeable and who has lost the capacity to consent before medical assistance in dying is provided, on the basis of a prior agreement they entered into with the medical practitioner or nurse practitioner; and

(e) permit medical assistance in dying to be provided to a person who has lost the capacity to consent to it as a result of the self-administration of a substance that was provided to them under the provisions governing medical assistance in dying in order to cause their own death.

Further down, it specifies conditions that eliminate involuntary termination, and institutes penalties for medical personnel that violate the bill.
Molon Lube

altered

My argument is basically this:

If you're crazy, disabled but not seriously (say, an unmedicatible sleep disorder) and chronically homeless, and you're depressed unto suicide only because of how you basically cannot survive without access to social safety nets and maybe (like me) the last of those has ejected you, right? Like, let's start with "basically Altered".

You can't be coerced, but maybe your healthcare provider mentions it as an option. Right?

Then take someone who is basically all the above, but they have social safety net access still and, let's see, they're a cis dude. And maybe the provider doesn't mention it as an option.

The basically-me ends up at least CONSIDERING it, the other guy might not even realize it's an option, depending how much of a hermit he is.

Because doctors are even allowed to bring it up unprompted, it creates an imbalance that is able to be put to the use of eugenics. A shitty doctor could get away with soft-balling the option at patients they think Aren't Good Enough and maybe being reluctant to patients they see as Their Kind, forever. And maybe you have 90% of the people it's brought up to say no -- you still have a 10% imbalance aimed at the targets of doctoral bigotry. And bigotry isn't uniform, it doesn't fall everywhere equally. In Canada especially, that's going to come down on indigenous people hard.

Now, for the trans thing.

It's not that it IS targeting trans people. It's that there is a concerted effort to normalize calling LGBT identities mental illness in the US, and Canada (much as they would like to believe otherwise) seems to have a bad habit of picking up our right-wing crazy lately. So this goes through in March, and then the bigots find a way to push LGBT identity onto mental illness lists. And now LGBT people who are vulnerable (which is more common there then in the general population) have doctors recommending MAID to them. Again, say 90% say no -- that's, again, still a 10% imbalance and a SIGNIFICANT impact to the self-worth of the survivors. It still averages out to eugenics.

MAID could be implemented in a way where the patient has to request the information first. That would be much better than this, because this is inevitably subject to societal biases.
"I am that worst of all type of criminal...I cannot bring myself to do what you tell me, because you told me."

There's over 100 of us in this meat-suit. You'd think it runs like a ship, but it's more like a hundred and ten angry ghosts having an old-school QuakeWorld tournament, three people desperately trying to make sure the gamers don't go hungry or soil themselves, and the Facilities manager weeping in the corner as the garbage piles high.

altered

And FTR, the "cis guy has social safety net access still, so he's got better chances" thing correlates to identity. It's not a confounding factor, it's directly connected.

I'm in hell because I'm queer and crazy, not because of sheer dumb luck. I'm like this because society has the freedom to fuck me over however they please and what am I gonna do? I'm a crazy homeless person ranting about the gubmint hates them and is ruining their life, there's thousands more like me in just my zip code, who the fuck cares?

Queer people have a higher suicide rate than the general population. They're more likely to experience homelessness, predation and violence. They are more disabled than average because of bigotry, including bigotry in healthcare. They, in short, get fucked up. The identity and the horror are connected.
"I am that worst of all type of criminal...I cannot bring myself to do what you tell me, because you told me."

There's over 100 of us in this meat-suit. You'd think it runs like a ship, but it's more like a hundred and ten angry ghosts having an old-school QuakeWorld tournament, three people desperately trying to make sure the gamers don't go hungry or soil themselves, and the Facilities manager weeping in the corner as the garbage piles high.

altered

Oh, and last thing: when you remember that if you're poor enough there is basically no recourse for you because where the fuck are you gonna find the money for a lawyer, it suddenly becomes a lot more likely for doctors to just straight up break the rules. They've done it to me. Multiple times after explaining my medical history, I have been told "That is literally illegal," by qualified professionals who would know, and they're probably right. But what can I do about it? I beg for grocery money on Twitter, talking to a legal professional just isn't happening.

So do keep in mind that some doctors will absolutely coerce their vulnerable patients even though it's against the rules, because there is basically no chance anyone cares even if they get caught.
"I am that worst of all type of criminal...I cannot bring myself to do what you tell me, because you told me."

There's over 100 of us in this meat-suit. You'd think it runs like a ship, but it's more like a hundred and ten angry ghosts having an old-school QuakeWorld tournament, three people desperately trying to make sure the gamers don't go hungry or soil themselves, and the Facilities manager weeping in the corner as the garbage piles high.

Faust

Sounds like hysteria, and heres why: A doctor potentially ending their high paid, lucrative career just to suggest euthanasia to vulnerable people is the stretch, its not realistic.

They problem is as you describe, they don't care about you, they wont offer the real support any more then they would offer the most visible and highly scrutinised option.
My experience is and has always been: doctors will offer you the easiest option FOR THEM, the golden rule of medicine is not "first do no  harm" it is "first, cover your ass"
Sleepless nights at the chateau

Scribbly

As I said, a lot of it is about direction of travel.

It is possible that I'm being paranoid.

But the past few years have reinforced over and over again that I ought to expect the worst. May well be causing a bias in my view and making me too sensitive. From this article https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/dec/18/canada-medically-assisted-death-delay it looks like the mental illness criteria has been delayed (though I can't see where it has been delayed to and I can't find another source but the Guardian) so that's positive. But my instinct is still to listen to the disability advocates who are saying "Look, they put us in situations where we can't afford care and life becomes torture and then they tell us we can choose death". Because that seems like exactly the sort of thing states are incentivised to do; we do similar things here in the UK all the time, the difference is that in the UK I'm lucky enough to have a support network which means I'm unlikely to wind up in that position myself. I still wouldn't move to the UK from outside it, especially without a support network here already.

Circling back to the original point, though, after today's meetup it looks like friends are looking at Ireland, Netherlands, Finland and Scotland (though... I think Scotland is optimistic personally). But they've got preexisting links to those places that make it easier to get out there. I got nothing, so if I am going to just run away, I ought to at least try and pick the best possible place. Wherever the hell that might be. I need to do a lot more research on that question.

(Technically I could probably work towards relocating to Scotland via work - but I'm really not as sold that Scotland would be significantly better if things progress in the way I expect)

Nobody that I've spoken to is planning to stick around, though. So if I do stay I also need more new friends or I'm going to be very lonely in a couple of years.
I had an existential crisis and all I got was this stupid gender.

altered

Quote from: Faust on January 29, 2023, 10:58:28 PM
Sounds like hysteria, and heres why: A doctor potentially ending their high paid, lucrative career just to suggest euthanasia to vulnerable people is the stretch, its not realistic.

They problem is as you describe, they don't care about you, they wont offer the real support any more then they would offer the most visible and highly scrutinised option.
My experience is and has always been: doctors will offer you the easiest option FOR THEM, the golden rule of medicine is not "first do no  harm" it is "first, cover your ass"

And as I said in that very post, my experience is that "plenty of doctors will break the law because they know you can't do shit". I'm not alone, either, I know lots of people have stories like this. Very common amongst disabled AFAB people, because, funny enough, doctors think they're being "hysterical". And medical racism is so common that they have quantified the average amount that doctors undermedicate Black patients for pain. Almost never are there consequences for any of this. One of the more gruesome cases is that of Tyra Hunter. The ER staff who mocked her while she died in front of them were never even disciplined. And this one was, in part, transphobia, so it's real close to home for me. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Tyra_Hunter

Is it hysteria if it's already happening? In fact, evidence suggests that it happens all the goddamn time, just like cops shooting Black people in the street and walking free.
"I am that worst of all type of criminal...I cannot bring myself to do what you tell me, because you told me."

There's over 100 of us in this meat-suit. You'd think it runs like a ship, but it's more like a hundred and ten angry ghosts having an old-school QuakeWorld tournament, three people desperately trying to make sure the gamers don't go hungry or soil themselves, and the Facilities manager weeping in the corner as the garbage piles high.

Faust

Quote from: altered on January 30, 2023, 01:40:10 AM
Quote from: Faust on January 29, 2023, 10:58:28 PM
Sounds like hysteria, and heres why: A doctor potentially ending their high paid, lucrative career just to suggest euthanasia to vulnerable people is the stretch, its not realistic.

They problem is as you describe, they don't care about you, they wont offer the real support any more then they would offer the most visible and highly scrutinised option.
My experience is and has always been: doctors will offer you the easiest option FOR THEM, the golden rule of medicine is not "first do no  harm" it is "first, cover your ass"

And as I said in that very post, my experience is that "plenty of doctors will break the law because they know you can't do shit". I'm not alone, either, I know lots of people have stories like this. Very common amongst disabled AFAB people, because, funny enough, doctors think they're being "hysterical". And medical racism is so common that they have quantified the average amount that doctors undermedicate Black patients for pain. Almost never are there consequences for any of this. One of the more gruesome cases is that of Tyra Hunter. The ER staff who mocked her while she died in front of them were never even disciplined. And this one was, in part, transphobia, so it's real close to home for me. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Tyra_Hunter

Is it hysteria if it's already happening? In fact, evidence suggests that it happens all the goddamn time, just like cops shooting Black people in the street and walking free.
Ok yes, there is a big difference between American medicine, and other counties. Elsewhere Doctors are routinely struck off or can't get insured due to complaints or law suits that drove up their premium.
This has has a cooling effect where doctors do the minimum and often miss out on real issues as they won't do anything more invasive than an xray for fear it puts them out of the job, basically a patient needs to demand things like CTs ect off their own bat
Sleepless nights at the chateau

Faust

I do routinely forget that the US gave syphilis to Black people just to see what would happen.
Abusee happened everywhere as late as the 60s, however most other countries went in the other direction and added accountability while the US seems to double down instead
Sleepless nights at the chateau

Scribbly

Quote from: Faust on January 30, 2023, 07:32:01 AM
Quote from: altered on January 30, 2023, 01:40:10 AM
Quote from: Faust on January 29, 2023, 10:58:28 PM
Sounds like hysteria, and heres why: A doctor potentially ending their high paid, lucrative career just to suggest euthanasia to vulnerable people is the stretch, its not realistic.

They problem is as you describe, they don't care about you, they wont offer the real support any more then they would offer the most visible and highly scrutinised option.
My experience is and has always been: doctors will offer you the easiest option FOR THEM, the golden rule of medicine is not "first do no  harm" it is "first, cover your ass"

And as I said in that very post, my experience is that "plenty of doctors will break the law because they know you can't do shit". I'm not alone, either, I know lots of people have stories like this. Very common amongst disabled AFAB people, because, funny enough, doctors think they're being "hysterical". And medical racism is so common that they have quantified the average amount that doctors undermedicate Black patients for pain. Almost never are there consequences for any of this. One of the more gruesome cases is that of Tyra Hunter. The ER staff who mocked her while she died in front of them were never even disciplined. And this one was, in part, transphobia, so it's real close to home for me. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Tyra_Hunter

Is it hysteria if it's already happening? In fact, evidence suggests that it happens all the goddamn time, just like cops shooting Black people in the street and walking free.
Ok yes, there is a big difference between American medicine, and other counties. Elsewhere Doctors are routinely struck off or can't get insured due to complaints or law suits that drove up their premium.
This has has a cooling effect where doctors do the minimum and often miss out on real issues as they won't do anything more invasive than an xray for fear it puts them out of the job, basically a patient needs to demand things like CTs ect off their own bat

I can't speak to Canada, which was the original subject, but it's not a uniquely American problem at all. UK healthcare has replicated the exact same problems as regards racism and transphobia in a big way. I haven't investigated every medical system in the world, obviously, but my impression is that this is near enough universal. By its nature medical care puts people in a position of authority, where those people are bigots they will exercise that power, and systems of accountability tend not to work great when you are dealing with marginalised people as a general rule.

I'm honestly a little surprised the general consensus here seems to have so much faith in these systems of accountability - there's absolutely nothing about my experiences with any of these systems which makes me think they are working well. It's possible I'm predisposed to see the worst, but equally you guys seem to think that when you make complaints they will be listened to and acted upon. That has not been my experience whatsoever.

Generally making complaints to authority has led to me having more problems, not fewer.
I had an existential crisis and all I got was this stupid gender.

Faust

When I was living in the UK I saw the NHS is an unwieldy machine that  is a black hole for accountability: patients dropped of lists, never notified of specific dates for treatment, and as such missed, but these looked like major incompetence rather than maliciousness. In terms of racism it manifests in a weird way:
I never once saw a native UK doctor, instead it was majority Indian, Pakistani, Nigerian etc, they were all excellent but bring their own cultural bais to the job. A lot in Indian doctors come from very wealthy families accustomed to the caste system and can be dismissive of problems for poor/ homeless etc.  That said I was in Essex and I know this varies hugely depending on where you are.

The only overt racism I experienced was for being Irish from the secretary on the desk, who openly said I was only in the UK to "use the free NHS"

In Ireland, Spain, the Netherlands etc, it is much much easier for doctors to be struck off or sued into oblivion, so much so that in Ireland it has created a paralysis where doctors will go out of their way to do the minimum possible for the patient, which for obvious reasons creates its own problems.
Sleepless nights at the chateau