Author Topic: Open Bar: Curbside Pickup Only  (Read 183187 times)

Scribbly

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Re: Open Bar: Curbside Pickup Only
« Reply #1110 on: January 30, 2023, 09:51:46 am »
I'm afraid if you think bigotry isn't a problem in UK healthcare you are just wrong.

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‘While there has been a small drop in the maternal mortality rate for Black women in recent MBRRACE reports, this bleak picture has not changed in over a decade. We remain deeply concerned that Black and Brown people’s basic human rights to safety, dignity and equality in pregnancy and childbirth are not being protected, respected or upheld.

https://www.birthrights.org.uk/2021/11/11/new-mbrrace-report-shows-black-women-still-four-times-more-likely-to-die-in-pregnancy-and-childbirth/

This is also a fairly impressive deep dive on complaining about trans healthcare in the UK: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1eWIshUzr8&t=5s

Abigail has massive privilege in a bunch of ways. She's fairly wealthy, she's white, she's pretty, and she has the free time to take the complaint beyond the normal process because she works for herself so she could afford to spend hours upon hours chasing people down, demanding meetings, etc.

The system is still as the system is and there is no sign it is going to change for the better. They are doubling down on the issues in the current system instead.

There's a lot more on ableism within medical institutions as well, I have seen some real horrible reactions to mental health particularly, but tbh I think that's enough to be going on with. If you haven't encountered these situations that's great; I promise you, they exist and the systems you are supposed to use to hold them accountable simply do not function. If you do complain, you're the troublemaker. Maybe you can hope you are used as a warning to the NHS when you die (https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/may/27/rise-in-coroner-warnings-nhs-patient-deaths-tory-austerity-labour), but y'know, that's not much comfort.
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Faust

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Re: Open Bar: Curbside Pickup Only
« Reply #1111 on: January 30, 2023, 10:40:18 am »
I'm not saying it doesnt exist, I agreed that the UK system lacks accountability, the UK system is crumbling, but its a multi variable problem: being deliberately run down by the Tories over decades in an attempt to justify privatization, lack of staffing, massive demand on the system, and yes to top it off a healthy dose of bias can make it extra dangerous to specific groups, but the problems for everyone using it.
The NHS in Europe is not the norm, it is also the only fully public body which gives rise to a lot of the issues on accountability.

Holding the US (a failed nation and dystopia) and the UK (a crumbling moneypit) up as examples of why Canada is running death programs to target homeless, trans, mentally ill people is daft.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2023, 10:45:02 am by Faust »
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Scribbly

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Re: Open Bar: Curbside Pickup Only
« Reply #1112 on: January 30, 2023, 10:44:54 am »
Yeah okay that's definitely what I've been saying this whole time you got me
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Faust

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Re: Open Bar: Curbside Pickup Only
« Reply #1113 on: January 30, 2023, 10:49:30 am »
I'm not putting words in your mouth but the discussion did start in the context of Canada in regards to canadas medically assisted dying held up as a convenient way to get rid of 'themuns.

I have no doubt the US systems and UK have issues for Trans or mental disability patients and is on a downward trajectory: that is fact, the above, specifically regarding canada is dubious
« Last Edit: January 30, 2023, 10:55:58 am by Faust »
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Re: Open Bar: Curbside Pickup Only
« Reply #1114 on: January 30, 2023, 07:15:26 pm »
No, that's a misreading. My point is that it could be used that way and nothing in the system uniquely prevents it from going the route of the USA. In fact, I specifically pointed out that Canada is picking up a lot of US right wing crazy lately, and even gave examples.

I said on multiple occasions that it probably isn't being used that way yet. I showed how it could be, pointed out that medical professionals have a history of acting with impunity to vulnerable people, pointed out Canada already gets rid of "themuns" (indigenous people, specifically) in much the same way the USA does to Black people, and pointed out that Canada is not somehow uniquely culturally immune to being awful, or at least that if it does that immunity is waning.

It's not about There Is Definitely Active Genocide In Canada Aimed At Trans People. It's about Canada has been genociding its indigenous people without so much as a fucking "huh whats up with this" for decades, it's getting infected with USA far-right conspiracy madness, and the system has a tool that can be used to beat the minorities to death with.

It is, in short, about RISK FACTORS. Which I think I've shown are pretty fucking reasonable in this instance, fucking thank you.
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Scribbly

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Re: Open Bar: Curbside Pickup Only
« Reply #1115 on: January 30, 2023, 07:37:58 pm »
No, that's a misreading. My point is that it could be used that way and nothing in the system uniquely prevents it from going the route of the USA. In fact, I specifically pointed out that Canada is picking up a lot of US right wing crazy lately, and even gave examples.

I said on multiple occasions that it probably isn't being used that way yet. I showed how it could be, pointed out that medical professionals have a history of acting with impunity to vulnerable people, pointed out Canada already gets rid of "themuns" (indigenous people, specifically) in much the same way the USA does to Black people, and pointed out that Canada is not somehow uniquely culturally immune to being awful, or at least that if it does that immunity is waning.

It's not about There Is Definitely Active Genocide In Canada Aimed At Trans People. It's about Canada has been genociding its indigenous people without so much as a fucking "huh whats up with this" for decades, it's getting infected with USA far-right conspiracy madness, and the system has a tool that can be used to beat the minorities to death with.

It is, in short, about RISK FACTORS. Which I think I've shown are pretty fucking reasonable in this instance, fucking thank you.

I thought we were both being pretty clear about this but apparently not.
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altered

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Re: Open Bar: Curbside Pickup Only
« Reply #1116 on: January 30, 2023, 07:53:56 pm »
I have no doubt the US systems and UK have issues for Trans or mental disability patients and is on a downward trajectory: that is fact

Also, while I have it in mind; here you just named the two largest exporters of culture to Canada, US through cultural hegemony and UK through Commonwealth stuff.
“I am that worst of all type of criminal...I cannot bring myself to do what you tell me, because you told me.”

There's over 100 of us in this meat-suit. You'd think it runs like a ship, but it's more like a hundred and ten angry ghosts having an old-school QuakeWorld tournament, three people desperately trying to make sure the gamers don't go hungry or soil themselves, and the Facilities manager weeping in the corner as the garbage piles high.

Faust

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Re: Open Bar: Curbside Pickup Only
« Reply #1117 on: January 30, 2023, 07:57:56 pm »
Apologies yeah I was reading a more reactionary take on it,Canada is gradually becoming more and more right wing and yes did wipe out the indigenous people. In some ways they have even been worse than the US in confronting thier history on that.

There would be a number of things would need to break in their medical system to ever arrive at that hypothetical outcome, but it's not impossible given enough time for it to be abused that way, though I couldn't see it any time soon based on the medical malpractice suit culture it shares with other countries
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Re: Open Bar: Curbside Pickup Only
« Reply #1118 on: January 30, 2023, 08:12:00 pm »
Apologies yeah I was reading a more reactionary take on it,Canada is gradually becoming more and more right wing and yes did wipe out the indigenous people. In some ways they have even been worse than the US in confronting thier history on that.
Gonna argue that.  Most Americans still believe the Native Americans were finally happy when we put them on reservations.

Canada took a long time to examine what they've done, but afterwards don't seem to try to excuse it.
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Faust

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Re: Open Bar: Curbside Pickup Only
« Reply #1119 on: January 30, 2023, 08:20:34 pm »
Fair, wasnt it was only in the last 5 years they acknowledged the schools taking native American kids, changing their names and completely hiding their heritage, not to mention lots and lots of them died. But they have taken an official stance on that now accepting wrongdoing (as long as there is absolutely no talk of reparation)
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Re: Open Bar: Curbside Pickup Only
« Reply #1120 on: January 30, 2023, 08:23:46 pm »
Apologies yeah I was reading a more reactionary take on it,Canada is gradually becoming more and more right wing and yes did wipe out the indigenous people.
Not to whitewash the atrocities committed, or anything, but there are 1.8 million indigenous living in Canada, about 5% of the population.  Their cultural history has been decimated, but they haven't been wiped out.


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[...]  though I couldn't see it any time soon based on the medical malpractice suit culture it shares with other countries

I'm not sure where you got that from.  Canada's rate of medical malpractice lawsuits is a fraction of the US, and the payouts are much lower.  We have more in common with Europe.  Who are you comparing us to?
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chaotic neutral observer

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Re: Open Bar: Curbside Pickup Only
« Reply #1121 on: January 30, 2023, 08:27:25 pm »
Fair, wasnt it was only in the last 5 years they acknowledged the schools taking native American kids, changing their names and completely hiding their heritage, not to mention lots and lots of them died. But they have taken an official stance on that now accepting wrongdoing (as long as there is absolutely no talk of reparation)
What on earth are you talking about?  Survivors of residential schools have been eligible for reparation payments since 2007.  Are you just making shit up, or did you read this in some British tabloid?
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Faust

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Re: Open Bar: Curbside Pickup Only
« Reply #1122 on: January 30, 2023, 08:32:08 pm »
Apologies yeah I was reading a more reactionary take on it,Canada is gradually becoming more and more right wing and yes did wipe out the indigenous people.
Not to whitewash the atrocities committed, or anything, but there are 1.8 million indigenous living in Canada, about 5% of the population.  Their cultural history has been decimated, but they haven't been wiped out.


Quote
[...]  though I couldn't see it any time soon based on the medical malpractice suit culture it shares with other countries

I'm not sure where you got that from.  Canada's rate of medical malpractice lawsuits is a fraction of the US, and the payouts are much lower.  We have more in common with Europe.  Who are you comparing us to?
I knew the indigenous people had a small group but five percent is way higher and better then I expected.

To clarify the pocess for a doctor to lose their licence or be uninsurable in Canada is one to two cases which is in line with most European countries, it results in doctors erring on the side of caution, and hesitating or simply referring people to the emergency services to pass the buck. It results in better accountability but much more feet dragging
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Faust

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Re: Open Bar: Curbside Pickup Only
« Reply #1123 on: January 30, 2023, 08:38:45 pm »
Fair, wasnt it was only in the last 5 years they acknowledged the schools taking native American kids, changing their names and completely hiding their heritage, not to mention lots and lots of them died. But they have taken an official stance on that now accepting wrongdoing (as long as there is absolutely no talk of reparation)
What on earth are you talking about?  Survivors of residential schools have been eligible for reparation payments since 2007.  Are you just making shit up, or did you read this in some British tabloid?
Why would I read a British Tabloid? I was reading this last week, has there been a scheme for redress available before it?

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/1/22/canada-to-pay-indigenous-more-than-2bn-over-residential-schools

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Re: Open Bar: Curbside Pickup Only
« Reply #1124 on: January 30, 2023, 09:00:08 pm »
Why would I read a British Tabloid? I was reading this last week, has there been a scheme for redress available before it?

That's what I just said.  There was a settlement agreement in 2007.  https://www.rcaanc-cirnac.gc.ca/eng/1100100015576/1571581687074
The then-prime minister issued an apology in 2008, not this "5 years ago" you guessed at.

This isn't some new thing that suddenly showed up last week.
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