TESTEMONAIL:  Right and Discordianism allows room for personal interpretation. You have your theories and I have mine. Unlike Christianity, Discordia allows room for ideas and opinions, and mine is well-informed and based on ancient philosophy and theology, so, my neo-Discordian friends, open your minds to my interpretation and I will open my mind to yours. That's fair enough, right? Just claiming to be discordian should mean that your mind is open and willing to learn and share ideas. You guys are fucking bashing me and your laughing at my theologies and my friends know what's up and are laughing at you and honestly this is my last shot at putting a label on my belief structure and your making me lose all hope of ever finding a ideological group I can relate to because you don't even know what the fuck I'm talking about and everything I have said is based on the founding principals of real Discordianism. Expand your mind.

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What does it mean to Immanentize the Eschaton?

Started by Cramulus, August 21, 2020, 01:40:18 PM

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What does it mean to immanentize the eschaton? ie to bring about the end of the world?

The Discordian calendar is a key part of our cosmology.. it has five months: Chaos, Disorder, Confusion, Bureaucracy, and Aftermath. This cycle describes a gradual buildup of order which eventually shorts out and crashes, and is followed by something new and fertile.

This moment of transition--between Bureaucracy and Aftermath--is a holy moment to Discordians. Many things will end during this time, and then there will be a new flowering.

We need to seek this transition ... not just in the world, but also within ourselves. There are rules we've made for ourselves, for good reasons, they eventually become traps. And likewise there are bad behaviors and opinions and automatic cabbage-like habits we need to get control of -- this, too, is part of the holy quest for Aftermath.



Brother Mythos

"What does it mean to Immanentize the Eschaton?"

As per a dictionary, "immanentize" means "to immanent." As per another dictionary, "immanent" means "all kinds of more-or-less philosophical stuff." My own interpretation is that "immanentize" is a fancy, made up, synonym for "to make real." And, as per yet a third dictionary, "eschaton" is a fancy synonym for "the end of the world."

Therefore, my overall interpretation is that "to Immanentize the Eschaton" means "to bring about the end of the world." Synonyms for this phrase include, "Game Over," "The fat lady has sung," and "That's all she wrote." (I think you get the general idea.)

Now, on page 00046 of our sacred Principia Discordia it clearly states, "Don't let THEM  immanentize the Eschaton". So, as a Discordian Fundamentalist, I was led to believe that this is a clear, serious, unambiguous, military direct order for loyal Discordians "to not let THEM (THEM Bastards!) bring about the end of the world." That was all on account of the MILITARY rubber stamp on the bottom of the page. Because, everyone knows a MILITARY rubber stamp is a really clear, serious, unambiguous rubber stamp.

However, after thinking about it further, I couldn't help but wonder, since when is Discordianism clear, serious, and unambiguous about anything. I mean seriously, since when? I never got the memo. And so, my long path to enlightenment, illumination, or whatever, must continue.

Hail Eris!
Discordianism is fundamentally mischievous irreverence.

I've upped my game. So, up yours.

Q. G. Pennyworth

I came of age during 9/11. Quite literally. I graduated high school in 2001, that Tuesday was the first month of college for me. This is Important Context.

A think tank is a group of Very Smart People who devote themselves to strategizing for political causes. Churning out "what if" scenarios and 20 year plans is their bread and butter. It should come as no surprise then, that there were contingency plans written up long before those buildings fell for how to take control in the aftermath of a national crisis. 9/11 Truthers always bother the shit out of me, because they're too focused on WHO DID 9/11 and not focused enough on WHAT HAPPENED AFTER 9/11. Because what happened after is the shitshow we're currently living. Sure, the 80s did a fucking number on us, and the 90s were not on a fantastic trajectory, but this Endless War shit? The bald faced nazi shit? This was not in the cards until those planes got hit and those contingency plans got pulled out and followed to the letter.

When you let THEM Immanentize the Eschaton, you are letting the forces of Destructive Order call all the fucking shots. If you let them make all the plans, if you let them set the tempo, if you abdicate your role as agent of Creative Chaos, they will continue leading the dance, and you will just be left sitting there trying to figure out what the fuck happened.

You need to DO things. You need to DO THINGS WITHOUT PERMISSION. They don't need to be explicitly political, they don't need to be about borders or property lines or poverty or war. But you can't sit there and do nothing. And it can be hard to figure out which things are worth the time and the energy, it can be hard to figure out when the wagons need to be circled and when you need to be opening lines of communication, of mutual aid. You won't get it perfectly right.

And maybe, maybe, there will be times when it will be on YOU to participate, in whatever way you can, in the sacred right of turning the cycle from Bureaucracy to Aftermath. But if you are letting THEM make all the plans for what happens after, if you are acting WITHOUT ACCOMPLICES and WITHOUT CONTINGENCIES, you might just be doing their work for them.

Brother Mythos

According to the little bit of research I did before making my original post, William F. Buckley Jr. is the guy who popularized the phrase "Don't let THEM immanentize the Eschaton!" And, I don't know why it's in the combined 4th and 5th edition of the Principia Discordia, as it's not found in the 1st edition. However, I do believe your interpretation of THEM is quite different from Buckley Jr.'s. I write this because I'm certain that to Buckley Jr., you and I would be part of THEM.

Further, I'm not completely certain about Kerry Wendell Thornley's interpretation of THEM. This is because Thornley served overseas in the military, would have definitely known Buckley Jr.'s phrase and interpretation, and the combined 4th and 5th edition of the Principia Discordia was published well after the end of the Vietnam War. Now, to me, Buckley Jr. was a well educated, well rewarded, chickenhawk mouthpiece of The Establishment (THEM). In the slang of the Vietnam War/Hippie Era, he was a tool of The Man. So, it is entirely possible that the phrase "Don't let THEM immanentize the Eschaton!" was intentionally, culturally appropriated, or in the slang of the Vietnam War/Hippie Era, "liberated" and included in the Principia Discordia. But again, I'm not completely certain that is the case. And, it's also entirely possible that the authors simply put it in the book as an afterthought, and yet another one of their inside jokes. After all, the intended meaning of the phrase was not expanded upon in any way. And, by comparison, the book devotes significantly more space to many just plain silly topics.

But, each of us are likely to interpret the true meanings of things in different ways, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. For what it's worth, I find absolutely nothing wrong with your interpretation of THEM, and believe it to be a positive one. And, I do agree that something has to be done about THEM.

Lastly, I'll end this post with an unsolicited observation. There is a culturally fair, but extremely unpopular way to put an end to Endless War. Just fire up the ol' Selective Service System again, and make it mandatory for everyone upon turning eighteen (18) years of age. And, I do mean everyone. Then, upon coming of age, every young adult would have to serve between around eighteen (18) months to two (2) years of active duty somewhere in some capacity, and then be subject to recalls for about four (4) more years in the event of national emergencies. But, when those national emergencies are over, those recalled go back home. If such a mandatory universal draft were to be enacted, I'm certain Endless War itself would become so unpopular that even the mighty Military-industrial Complex wouldn't be able to keep it going.
Discordianism is fundamentally mischievous irreverence.

I've upped my game. So, up yours.


opinions on "Don't Let THEM Immanetize the Eschaton"

"immanetize"  , to make something immanent, suddenly revelevant, like a threat looming over the horizon, like to put a time limit on something in that the end is near,

also, to "not man-ify" , in the sense of robotize

I tend to think of "the Eschaton" as a surveillance computer , and "immanitize" can be to remove human interface , or to turn the computer on and then it has too much power.  In the sense of 50s era scifi . 

"THEM"  as faceless order people, herding about and doing sinister activities to further reduce human society.


about 9/11 conspiracies

I've followed the 9/11 conspiracy yarns that I have encountered, and also the Crusade that occured after.  And the reasons the states involved claimed, and also the other possible reasons for invading the wrong countries.  Including the nature of Sunni Islam and behavior of al-Qaeda factions.  Also the dumbing of America and gradual deevolution of the USA into monarchist attitudes.  Ventrue

Doktor Howl

Molon Lube