Author Topic: Punching Man 4 where it counts  (Read 2563 times)

TheAudience

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Punching Man 4 where it counts
« on: June 22, 2021, 02:08:33 pm »
First off, whoever decided to name these concepts Man 1, Man 2, Man 3 and Man 4, FUCK YOU! You've made it basically impossible to google that shit and the names do nothing to clue in the uninitiated. Couldn't you have just named them The Physical Being, The Emotional Being, The Cognitive Being, and The World? Look it's easy to be informative and not gender centric. I'm not apologizing for it. Fuck You!

Anyway, from the context of the conversation the other night it sounded like there was this concept of Man 4 being some super meta state of being where you just control the other three Physical Emotional and Cognitive beings, to which I also say, Fuck You! That's Bollox! Man 4 is the actual shit that you have limited control over that constrains and shapes your behaviors. The Cognitive being can try to go deliberately against The World, but they will fail in the long run. You can push water up the hill all you want, but you aren't going to change the flow unless you move The Dirt, aka The World, the so called Man 4. Punch that Sucker where it counts, move The Dirt. And yes, you can do this with the other three parts of yourself, but that doesn't make you The World or Man 4.

Some examples of moving The Dirt.
Taking a different shift at work
Getting a different job
Investing in a passive revenue stream
Changing what you are subscribed to online
Unplugging your Router
Changing where you hang out
Establishing or severing ties with friends/acquaintances/family members
Scheduling and performing tasks until they become habits
Re arranging your space
Learning new information and changing your rationality

An example of not moving The Dirt.
Looking back at your week on Saturday night, having not changed anything, remembering that you had a goal to exercise more, shrugging, sighing, saying you'll try again next week, and not cancelling plans or making plans for the next week, leaving the trough untouched and watching yourself flow through the same sequence of rational decisions and justifications you flow down every week till the next Saturday night.

The Dirt often moves without explicit intention, just like a river will change it's course gradually from one year to another. Sometimes other friends and family will have something change in their life and they can no longer make it to that weekly meeting that sustained your relationship with them. Sometimes you get fired from your job. The World shifts indifferently and sends you down paths that if you aren't careful, or aware, could end you in a lonely, constricted, powerless place. But you can move The Dirt intentionally. This is hard work because there is uncertainty and there are consequences you can't anticipate. And you have to face up to those consequences. This is an art and not a science, there will be tradeoffs that you won't notice unless you are looking for them, the outcome will be uncertain the first few times you try, but do it enough and you might start to get the sense of how to get that stream where you want it to go and how to mitigate the tradeoffs...

That said, just like manipulating a flow of water in real life, it is entirely possible to really fuck up someone else's existence if you aren't careful. "Oops, I just re-directed this river and washed away your house" is entirely possible. "I just invested in a passive revenue stream" and "you just got priced out of every living space within miles of where you've lived all your life" can be a lot closer than you might realize. And the same could be said of your own existence, "I'm going to start taking a drug that is socially stigmatized" can quickly become "I'm hiding this habit from friends and family and bailing the waters of shame" if you aren't keen on how shit works in the world. Or how about this one, "I've started attending Positive Outlook courses so I can learn how to manifest a better future" can quickly become "I've been sold a bill of goods, I'm out a lot of money, and I still don't know how to change my life." How about this one from my actual life. "I took a job that more aligns with the skills I went to school to obtain because It pays noticeably more than my last position." Led to "I now have hours of time at work with little to no work to occupy me, and I'm barred from the usual sources I turn to in order to stave off boredom. I have to adapt to this situation carefully or I could develop severe mental health issues or a financially ruinous impulse buying problem."

There is no magic here. Using these methods probably won't solve all your problems. You aren't likely to become amazingly rich or become a totally different social being getting laid every night in the blink of an eye. But it will probably get you out of a rut and give you experience. So yeah... If you aren't doing what you feel you should be doing, Start moving The Dirt, start somewhere small, move your alarm clock across the room so you can't punch snooze without getting out of bed, punch man 4 where it counts, see what tradeoffs emerge, rinse and repeat till you die cause once you stop moving The Dirt, you've embraced oblivion and are going to be pushed by the indifferent universe into a hole that is way harder to escape.

Personally, I've been looking at my stream and noticing how similar it looks to the streams of other people. And I've noticed that the streams of those other people, led them far too frequently to suicide, death by loneliness... So here I am, desperately trying to shovel an escape trench to a different end. Wish this greyface cabbage some luck, cause I'm gonna need it.
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Cramulus

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Re: Punching Man 4 where it counts
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2021, 04:19:53 pm »
Man-4... maybe it's better to call it "the fourth brain". A lot of people have a very limited access to that capacity; we talk about it as something that has to be developed over time. It's not a birthright -- it's something you have to make efforts to achieve. Everybody thinks they have it already, so they never make the efforts, and so they remain trapped in habit and automaticity.

We recognize that our everyday conscious experience is this ongoing negotiation between the first three "brains" (the will of the physical body, the mental body, and the emotional body). By observing this process, we might be able to develop a new relationship with that process. Perhaps observations of this inner interplay, over a long period of time, can create something outside of that interplay. A watcher. And that watcher is composed of a lot of data.


There was a moment where you decided to move dirt, to change streams.
This is an important moment!
What was seeing, right then?
What is it, inside of us, that sees things from a higher perspective? and can sense these wild impulses that occupy us for years at a time?


Sometimes I do things and there's no intention behind them. Most of the time, we cruise on autopilot. I start to eat a meal and then suddenly I'm done. I don't even remember the intermediary bites. I get into a car and then I pull up to my destination. In between, there's a fog. Why can't I remember it? Where was I during that process? Something's not engaged, not present. Can you sense it?

when we can identify these two different states
(when it's there
vs
when it's not)
only then we can observe the conditions that create these states.


And when we finally understand the conditions, we have a toe hold.

Until now, it only seems to appear according to the law of accident.
What we want -- is to achieve this state intentionally, voluntarily, consciously.





easier said than done

but that's why they call it Work


TheAudience

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Re: Punching Man 4 where it counts
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2021, 05:31:06 pm »

There was a moment where you decided to move dirt, to change streams.
This is an important moment!
What was seeing, right then?
What is it, inside of us, that sees things from a higher perspective? and can sense these wild impulses that occupy us for years at a time?


The cognitive bit. Man 3 if you like. I have no organ for this fourth brain. I do have organs for the other three.
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Re: Punching Man 4 where it counts
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2021, 06:16:21 pm »
Man-4... maybe it's better to call it "the fourth brain". A lot of people have a very limited access to that capacity; we talk about it as something that has to be developed over time. It's not a birthright -- it's something you have to make efforts to achieve. Everybody thinks they have it already, so they never make the efforts, and so they remain trapped in habit and automaticity.

We recognize that our everyday conscious experience is this ongoing negotiation between the first three "brains" (the will of the physical body, the mental body, and the emotional body). By observing this process, we might be able to develop a new relationship with that process. Perhaps observations of this inner interplay, over a long period of time, can create something outside of that interplay. A watcher. And that watcher is composed of a lot of data.


There was a moment where you decided to move dirt, to change streams.
This is an important moment!
What was seeing, right then?
What is it, inside of us, that sees things from a higher perspective? and can sense these wild impulses that occupy us for years at a time?


Sometimes I do things and there's no intention behind them. Most of the time, we cruise on autopilot. I start to eat a meal and then suddenly I'm done. I don't even remember the intermediary bites. I get into a car and then I pull up to my destination. In between, there's a fog. Why can't I remember it? Where was I during that process? Something's not engaged, not present. Can you sense it?

when we can identify these two different states
(when it's there
vs
when it's not)
only then we can observe the conditions that create these states.


And when we finally understand the conditions, we have a toe hold.

Until now, it only seems to appear according to the law of accident.
What we want -- is to achieve this state intentionally, voluntarily, consciously.





easier said than done

but that's why they call it Work

it feels like you are talking about the sense that seems to hit hardest when you're on a long trip and you suddenly realize that you are driving.  i think it's just a matter of attention.  you can either focus your attention on the real and tangible, or you can focus on your thoughts or imagination.  i think it is only deliberately that a meditative state of "no mind" can be achieved and there's some sort of irony in maintaining that state.  (how do you maintain a state of "no mind" without thinking about it?) 

then again, maybe not all minds work the same way. 

Cram, I believe you are about to become a father. If I remembered right about that, congratulations! and: I predict your perspective on mindfulness is about to undergo a major shift as you will be focusing your attention on providing for and protecting your toddler from themselves.  there will be times when you are completely aware of *their* world and unaware of your own.
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TheAudience

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Re: Punching Man 4 where it counts
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2021, 07:27:54 pm »

it feels like you are talking about the sense that seems to hit hardest when you're on a long trip and you suddenly realize that you are driving.  i think it's just a matter of attention.  you can either focus your attention on the real and tangible, or you can focus on your thoughts or imagination.  i think it is only deliberately that a meditative state of "no mind" can be achieved and there's some sort of irony in maintaining that state.  (how do you maintain a state of "no mind" without thinking about it?) 

then again, maybe not all minds work the same way. 

Cram, I believe you are about to become a father. If I remembered right about that, congratulations! and: I predict your perspective on mindfulness is about to undergo a major shift as you will be focusing your attention on providing for and protecting your toddler from themselves.  there will be times when you are completely aware of *their* world and unaware of your own.

I think that is what I'm getting at to be frank. Assigning something mysterious or supernatural to this concept seems misguided to me. The concept of going into a flow state, or defaulting to a habit is not alien to me, but I don't see it as a thing to be fought against nor do I see attention as some sort of hard to reach state that is to be sought after for its own good. I don't summon up all my attention to make or eat breakfast in the morning before work. It's unnecessary to do so, spends lots of extra energy to remain in that state, and I'll probably fuck up my eggs because I'm trying to do it consciously rather than leaving it up to my well trained reflexive habits.

Now, if a habit kept producing an outcome that was displeasing then I'm going to direct my attention to the chain of events in that habit till I understand, what are the circumstances (do I keep stubbing my toe on this piece of furniture, the placement of this furniture is part of the circumstances), and the internal reasoning (do I keep skipping out on exercise during a planned time, what other motivations are on my mind at the time? Have I given up enough other activities to really make time or am I cramming too many activities or desires into my schedule such that I've got conflicting motivations that exercise just keeps losing at every time. These are internal reasoning) that make up the habit. Then I try to come up with options, can I move something in the space to optimize that habit, can I remove conflicting motivations, can I remove distractions or temptation, can I build up barriers between me and the habit I want to break? Can I craft a new habit to replace the habit I'm trying to end.

And yes, all of this is work. I wrote up a several page document a week ago looking at all the communities I see myself as part of, analyzing how I interact and what, if anything I get from those communities and what I want to get from them. It took several hours and after I was done I had a solid list of communities I wanted to cut out of my habits. And change them I have. Now I'm watching for the tradeoffs and trying to build different habits in the new space.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2021, 07:30:10 pm by TheAudience »
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Re: Punching Man 4 where it counts
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2021, 07:34:23 pm »
What is it, inside of us, that sees things from a higher perspective?
The human mind has the capacity for internal feedback, which allows it to observe its own function, to some extent.  This is where self-reflection comes from, and possibly the idea of free will.  I call it "The one that watches" as compared to "The one that is".  However, it's not a distinct entity, any more than hanging a mirror from the brim of my hat makes me two people.

Quote
Sometimes I do things and there's no intention behind them.  Most of the time, we cruise on autopilot. I start to eat a meal and then suddenly I'm done. I don't even remember the intermediary bites. I get into a car and then I pull up to my destination. In between, there's a fog. Why can't I remember it? Where was I during that process?
You don't remember it because nothing interesting or novel happened.  It would be a waste of brain resources to store all those meaningless details.

Running on auto-pilot is, much of the time, a good thing.  Directly considering every movement of the fork, every chewing motion, every particle of food would be exhausting....and unnecessary.  You don't need to be continually conscious of how much pressure you're applying to the gas pedal, and how that relates to your speed; you've practiced that, you've mastered it, and the "more awake" part of your brain can occupy itself with checking traffic signals and watching out for monks crossing the road.

Quote
Until now, it only seems to appear according to the law of accident.
What we want -- is to achieve this state intentionally, voluntarily, consciously.
Well...no, it doesn't happen accidentally.  I can trigger the "awake" state manually, but it requires concentration and effort, and isn't particularly useful... on its own.

But it happens all the time when I'm learning something new, or acquiring a new skill.  I can't run on autopilot, then; my brain has to start watching itself, in order to figure out what it's doing right, and what it's doing wrong.  As I master something, the necessity for this self-observation diminishes, until whatever I was doing is just another autopilot routine.

Quote
A lot of people have a very limited access to that capacity; we talk about it as something that has to be developed over time. It's not a birthright -- it's something you have to make efforts to achieve.
I think that's exactly backward; people are born with this capacity (to a certain degree), and it diminishes with time.

Yeah, all people--myself included--spend much of the time on autopilot.  But most of us are still capable of flipping into some version of an "awake" state when we're learning something.  A child, who is still learning things, is going to spend less time on autopilot than an adult, simply because they have so much stuff to learn.
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Re: Punching Man 4 where it counts
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2021, 07:35:06 pm »
There is no magic here.
Quoted for Truth.
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Cramulus

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Re: Punching Man 4 where it counts
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2021, 07:55:58 pm »

There was a moment where you decided to move dirt, to change streams.
This is an important moment!
What was seeing, right then?
What is it, inside of us, that sees things from a higher perspective? and can sense these wild impulses that occupy us for years at a time?


The cognitive bit. Man 3 if you like. I have no organ for this fourth brain. I do have organs for the other three.

If your intellect can notice these things all by itself, and control the other systems, consider yourself lucky! I hope it sees clearly.


In me, most of the time, the intellect acts more like a commentary track. It compares things to other things. It figures out which heuristic to apply. But without direction (from somewhere else...), it cruises on dumb autopilot.

It "explains" and "rationalizes" what I'm doing.

Sometimes it leads.

Usually, I find it's acting as a slave to my emotions (I build a rational scaffold after the fact to 'explain' or 'justify' what I'm doing/feeling), but the intellect has trouble recognizing that all by itself. The intellect is a hammer that sees everything as a nail. The head doesn't know how small it is.


I believe that there is a way to develop a locus of action, an organizing principle for attention, which is NOT emotional and NOT intellectual and NOT merely driven by physical pleasure/displeasure. When every part of us is involved, we're more alive.

The question which arises: in our everyday state, what's missing?

Cram, I believe you are about to become a father. If I remembered right about that, congratulations! and: I predict your perspective on mindfulness is about to undergo a major shift as you will be focusing your attention on providing for and protecting your toddler from themselves.  there will be times when you are completely aware of *their* world and unaware of your own.

oh no doubt, I'm chomping at the chrysalis walls


Cramulus

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Re: Punching Man 4 where it counts
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2021, 08:15:18 pm »
Assigning something mysterious or supernatural to this concept seems misguided to me. The concept of going into a flow state, or defaulting to a habit is not alien to me, but I don't see it as a thing to be fought against nor do I see attention as some sort of hard to reach state that is to be sought after for its own good. I don't summon up all my attention to make or eat breakfast in the morning before work. It's unnecessary to do so, spends lots of extra energy to remain in that state, and I'll probably fuck up my eggs because I'm trying to do it consciously rather than leaving it up to my well trained reflexive habits.

your mileage may vary

CNO is totally correct when he said, above, that it's not desirable to completely kill your autopilot. We need habits, we couldn't walk across a room without them. That's not what this is line of thinking is about.

It took me a long time to recognize the importance of these "unimportant" moments.


chatting with other humans


enjoying my breakfast


working up a sweat


desire, frustration, satisfaction


This is the material which makes up our lives! I used to think it was boring, I mean, I drink the same cup of coffee every day, right?

But if I'm home, if I'm present, there's a quality to these experiences... there's an exchange between me and the universe, and it makes me feel more alive.

And sometimes you talk to someone, and you can recognize that they're not really there. You're talking to their autopilot.

But life is not about going through the motions until you get to go on vacation and have a real experience there.


If I experience things with my habitual mind, they just pass. No mark is left.
Sometimes it seems like years pass without the needle ever making contact with the record.


what a waste, right?





« Last Edit: June 22, 2021, 08:17:38 pm by Cramulus »

TheAudience

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Re: Punching Man 4 where it counts
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2021, 10:18:34 pm »

And sometimes you talk to someone, and you can recognize that they're not really there. You're talking to their autopilot.


I often feel like the Cramulus Guru autopilot is responding...

My problem is most definitely not with the whole concept of "being present in the moment". Judging from some of the stories that you've told, I can see how that concept helped you break out of a rut, expand your horizons, make you feel more alive, etc... But you're talking to me, the dude who up and walked out in the middle of a cabal meeting to literally go watch bats eat fireflies in my back yard as the sun went down. If I'm not present, it's cause I got more interesting shit going through my head. Otherwise, I'm savoring the nutmeg, coriander and cloves in my currant oatmeal, I've had it dozens of times now, tastes just as great every time.
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Re: Punching Man 4 where it counts
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2021, 10:41:07 pm »

I often feel like the Cramulus Guru autopilot is responding...


oh, snap!
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Re: Punching Man 4 where it counts
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2021, 11:38:08 pm »


I often feel like the Cramulus Guru autopilot is responding...


Well, that was an asshole thing to say.
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Re: Punching Man 4 where it counts
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2021, 11:48:11 pm »


I often feel like the Cramulus Guru autopilot is responding...


Well, that was an asshole thing to say.

I often feel like the Doktor Howl autopilot is responding...
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TheAudience

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Re: Punching Man 4 where it counts
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2021, 12:15:16 am »


I often feel like the Cramulus Guru autopilot is responding...


Well, that was an asshole thing to say.

Yeah. It was. It's the first time I have said anything that assholish in a long, long time.

I guess this means I've transitioned from doormat / tube, to asshole.
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Re: Punching Man 4 where it counts
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2021, 02:55:36 pm »


I often feel like the Cramulus Guru autopilot is responding...


Well, that was an asshole thing to say.

I often feel like the Doktor Howl autopilot is responding...

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