Ancient Astronomy as it pertains to Aneristic Illusions

[Omnidextrious]

Upon reading a discussion about Ancient Astronomy, I noticed a pattern that seems to corelate with Aneristic Illusions, which seems to be a disillusionment the status quo's narrative of steady historical progress and limited early capabilities.

The progression from cave people to modern people was not linear as we have all been brought up to believe. Real history shows repeated cycles of building knowledge, losing it, rediscovering it, and developing in different directions at different times and places. This seems to vibe super well with the concept of Aneristic Illusion.


Timeline:

Prehistoric (~10,000 – 3000 BCE)
>Stone Henge

Ancient (~3000 – 500 BCE)
>Antikythera Mechanism
>Mesopotamian and Egyptian

Global Empires (~300 BCE – 500 CE)
>Alexander the Great
>The Roman Empire

Islamic Golden Age (~800 – 1500 CE)
>Dark Ages

Renaissance (1500 – 1800 CE)
>Rediscovery of Greek and Roman knowledge

Modern Era (1800 – Today)
>Mass literacy
>Cumulative scientific methods


Within this chaos, seems to be a pattern of order that was not purely accidental. The entire time, the farming, agricultural class, was forced to adhere to the religiously aligned scholarly class which would tell them when to plant and when to harvest, else they would plant too early and wait too late to harvest.

I speculate that the systems and methods of such, at some point, went from a benevolent anarchistic collaboration to flat out being a mass global control and enslavement scheme between the ancient era and the era of mass conquest.

It seems like we are still enslaved to such a system today, as the trade secrets are the number one top priority of federal and international law enforcement. We commoners may know outlandishly more than the feudal peasants of the past, but our academic resources are still locked behind massive pay walls, and access to such material is highly controlled and monitored.

The novel concept that I will take the social risk of arguing here is that has never changed in the last 10,000 years, and much of the class structures from then still remain in one form or another. The more our elite scholars learn, the more they allow to trickle down on the lower class.

Currently, Islam censors any history contradictory to their religious beliefs, and that has been occurring since Mohammed himself most likely caused the dark ages.

Before the dark ages, empires controlled the flow of knowledge, until the collapse of the Western Roman Empire. These non-interesting parts of History between the well documented established orders contained unbroken lineages of familial bloodlines and religious orders which absolutely kept secrets from the rest of us.

[Doktor Howl]

I just ate an entire block of cheese.

[Abbot Mythos]

Before the dark ages, empires controlled the flow of knowledge, until the collapse of the Western Roman Empire. These non-interesting parts of History between the well documented established orders contained unbroken lineages of familial bloodlines and religious orders which absolutely kept secrets from the rest of us.

Conspiracy theories are a defining feature of our Discordian mythology. It's one of the things that drew me to this religion, as I find many popular conspiracy theories to be highly amusing.

However, those of us who, for our amusement, occasionally claim the be members of the Illuminati, The Ancient Illuminated Seers of Bavaria (A.I.S.B.) - the World's Oldest and Most Successful Conspiracy, need to be aware that not every force that drives civilization originally sprung from a conscious, organized conspiracy. I submit that describing how our various previous civilizations operated, and how our current one operates, is more difficult than that. And, believing in conspiracy theories can lead to paranoia.

[chaotic neutral observer]

The entire time, the farming, agricultural class, was forced to adhere to the religiously aligned scholarly class which would tell them when to plant and when to harvest, else they would plant too early and wait too late to harvest.

Nonsense.  The farmers harvest when the crops are ready.  That doesn't happen on a fixed schedule.  Calendars sometimes come in helpful for determining when to plant, but the current year's conditions matters more.  Anything the "scholarly class" knows about farming they learned from the farmers.

The progression from cave people to modern people was not linear as we have all been brought up to believe.

I wasn't brought up to believe any such damn fool thing.  I perceive that you are full of shit.

[chaotic neutral observer]

I just ate an entire block of cheese.

He who was ears to hear, let him hear.  He who has butt to poop, let him poop.

[Omnidextrious]

I perceive that you are full of shit.

That... seems to be the overused crutch of an emotionally stunted arguer who cannot stomach ideas that challenge their own assumptions.

Old timey farmers needed an accurate system for timing planting and harvest because harvesting by hand took a long time and required the whole community working together, often for weeks on end, while crops only stayed perfectly ripe for a brief period before rain, wind, birds, or the plants themselves caused losses; in the past, with no good ways to preserve extra food for long periods or bring in supplies from far away, even losing 10 or 20 percent of the crop could leave the village short on calories during the winter or dry season when nothing new was growing and people already lived close to the edge.

[Omnidextrious]

Conspiracy theories are a defining feature of our Discordian mythology. It's one of the things that drew me to this religion, as I find many popular conspiracy theories to be highly amusing.

In that case, I will divulge that my great grandfather quit from high ranks in the actual freemasons/illuminati. The rumor was that we were cursed for three generations as a result. Tragic deaths and misfortune disabled and killed all of my relatives one by one, purely coincidental of course. There has never existed powerful conspirators or organized revenge, that has obviously absolutely never happened before, ever. Even suspecting that those long chain of unfortunate events could have been the result of poison and sabotage would be an absurd paranoia.

I submit that describing how our various previous civilizations operated, and how our current one operates, is more difficult than that. And, believing in conspiracy theories can lead to paranoia.

The very term, "Conspiracy Theory" is a loaded term that was propagated by corrupt intelligence agencies. A 1967 CIA internal dispatch, document 1035-960, titled "Countering Criticism of the Warren Report" instructed agency assets and media contacts to challenge skeptics of the official lone-gunman conclusion on President Kennedy's assassination via labeling them into the category of "Conspiracy Theorists" in the minds of the unsuspecting public.

And they likely got the idea from an 1863 New York Times editor, Charles Astor Bristed, who was discrediting the notion that British aristocrats were manipulating the US civil war for profits. Pure yellow journalist slander and mass manipulation, if you ask this random internet loon.

[chaotic neutral observer]

I perceive that you are full of shit.

That... seems to be the overused crutch of an emotionally stunted arguer who cannot stomach ideas that challenge their own assumptions.

On the contrary, I love ideas that challenge my assumptions.  Have you got any?

Old timey farmers needed an accurate system for timing planting and harvest

I grew up on a farm, kid, and you don't harvest by the calendar, nor by esoteric knowledge, grudgingly granted by the clerical class.  You go out to the field and check if the damn crop is ready.  The "old timey" farmers didn't have the convenience of grain moisture testers, but I guess they could go out, pluck a few stalks, and decide if the wheat was dry enough to grind.

because harvesting by hand took a long time and required the whole community working together, often for weeks on end, while crops only stayed perfectly ripe for a brief period before rain, wind, birds, or the plants themselves caused losses; in the past, with no good ways to preserve extra food for long periods or bring in supplies from far away, even losing 10 or 20 percent of the crop could leave the village short on calories during the winter or dry season when nothing new was growing and people already lived close to the edge.

Mostly true.  But the need for harvesting as quickly as possible once the crop is ready doesn't show the existence of a elite class that possessed "an accurate system for timing harvest".

Around these parts, even today, with machinery beyond the dreams of a medieval peasant, farmers hire extra workers and put in 20-hour work days to get the crop off when it's ready, and for much the same reasons.

But they don't start on a fixed date, because that would be stupid.  The time the crops are ready depends on the growing conditions during the season.

[chaotic neutral observer]

Conspiracy theories are a defining feature of our Discordian mythology. It's one of the things that drew me to this religion, as I find many popular conspiracy theories to be highly amusing.

In that case, I will divulge that my great grandfather quit from high ranks in the actual freemasons/illuminati.

Eh, that's not a terribly big deal.  I had an uncle who was a Shriner.  Have a picture of him wearing the hat, and everything.

[Omnidextrious]

I grew up on a farm, kid, and you don't harvest by the calendar, nor by esoteric knowledge, grudgingly granted by the clerical class.

Okay old feeble-minded geezer, maybe you're just bitter because you grew up dirt poor on some struggling rural farm with parents who had nothing and no real education or modern thinking. They got handed chemicals, equipment, and easy calendars later with zero actual threat of famine or invasion like real history had.

So now you sit there with your simpleton logic acting like ancient people were exactly like you?
They didn't even have calendars without the churches and the literate class running the town centers. Your whole "I just checked the field" story only works when you're in a safe modern society, not starving, and not living under real authoritarian power structures.

Eh, that's not a terribly big deal. I had an uncle who was a Shriner.

Your uncle was probably some nobody in a backwoods chapter who never had real status outside of that, nor the money or guts to actually stand for anything real. Not all chapters are the same, and sorry your family was so small-time and insignificant that they never got close to anything that mattered. Doesn't mean the rest of us come from the same nothing background as you.

The peasants were stuck under monarchies that worked hand-in-glove with the church since ancient times. State and religion ran everything together back then, like they still do in different forms now. Your insulting, simple take is just wrong and shows how little you actually know from your kid farm life. Is it your goal to demotivate people into being as bitter, closed-minded, and stuck in the past as some washed-up old farm boy who never had anything real? So the rest of us have to settle for your boring, simple version of history too?

[chaotic neutral observer]

I grew up on a farm, kid, and you don't harvest by the calendar, nor by esoteric knowledge, grudgingly granted by the clerical class.

Okay old feeble-minded geezer, maybe you're just bitter because you grew up dirt poor on some struggling rural farm with parents who had nothing and no real education or modern thinking.

Oh, I'm not bitter.  You're the most fun I've had on this forum in months.

They got handed chemicals, equipment, and easy calendars later with zero actual threat of famine or invasion like real history had.

Sure, they benefited from modern technologies.

But you're dodging the argument.  I'm saying you don't harvest based on the calendar.  You haven't said anything to contradict that.  I wonder, have you ever grown a plant?  Have you ever even seen one?

Y'know, you might have done better if you had conceded calendars are not terribly useful for harvesting, and focused on their utility for the timing of seeding.  Because...sometimes that does make sense.  I start growing my tomatoes around the spring equinox, for example.

Did you know there are also consequences for planting at the wrong time?

So now you sit there with your simpleton logic acting like ancient people were exactly like you?
They didn't even have calendars without the churches and the literate class running the town centers. Your whole "I just checked the field" story only works when you're in a safe modern society, not starving, and not living under real authoritarian power structures.

"Checking the field" is the only method that works at any point in history, regardless of the consequences of failure.

"It's September 15th, the priest says it's time to harvest!"
"Oops, the crop has already spoiled, we're all going to die."

vs.

"It's getting late in the season, time to check."
"The north is a little too green, but the south is almost ready.  Let's start there tomorrow, and check the north again in a few days."
"Good, I'll visit the priest and have him pray for clear weather."

Eh, that's not a terribly big deal. I had an uncle who was a Shriner.

Your uncle was probably some nobody in a backwoods chapter who never had real status outside of that, nor the money or guts to actually stand for anything real.

The town he lived in is so small, I'd be surprised you'd even heard of it.

But then, what impact did your great-grandfather have?  I bet he was thrown out of the order because he couldn't pay the membership fees.  Tragic deaths and misfortune go hand-in-hand with poverty, I suppose.

Your insulting, simple take is just wrong and shows how little you actually know from your kid farm life. Is it your goal to demotivate people into being as bitter, closed-minded, and stuck in the past as some washed-up old farm boy who never had anything real? So the rest of us have to settle for your boring, simple version of history too?

Real history is already fascinating without having to make stuff up.

If my observation that calendars didn't have quite the role in historical agriculture that you seem to think causes the edifice of your conspiracy theory to collapse, you could always tweak your theory to match reality.

I haven't said you have to throw all your ideas out, you know.