NAFR Jihad Sermon 14: Free?

[Kallisti]

It really is a pity about the immune systems of the native peoples of the Americas. It would have been so much more interesting if more of them could have been exposed to the European diseases before the Europeans got to their shores. Much, much, more interesting.

Yes this was really my original point : IT would have very interesting if the Native Peoples had been able to repulse all colonization attemps and formed a sort of Turtle Island Federation or whatever.

And instead of answering my questions, GitMo just told me to be civil.  I wonder what he meant by that.

Read some more books, talk to some veterans, or at least watch the history channel, there is no such thing as western civ, it is an illusion. Or rather, a collection of illusions, I think you need to grow up.

And from this all he saw was the grow up part, not that civilization is an illusion, not that there are many ways to get perspective on history, totally ignored the question about is there any culture that never praticed human sacrifice.  Amazing, but proves nicely how people only see what they want. I am glad I could count on you Pope Lou to be the voice of reason.

[Rev R.M.Jessum Flatewlint]

Just a thought for everyone here; if we're going to have serious debates GODDESS FORBID! My opinion-and it is only opinion-is that any direct address to a persons intellectual capacities-barring pie~in~the~face~stupidity-or to the size of various parts of anatomy or vain insults and threats- merely detracts and DISTRACTS one from the issue of debate :P Pehaps, in the absence of Intellectual capacity to debate effectively some of us use this as a strategem?!

[PopeLoUDICRUCE]

:P Glad to be of service! BTW I agree with Rev. Flatewlint

[Eldora, Oracle of Alchemy]

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclopedia/h/hu/human_sacrifice.htm

For those who do not click the links, here is a list, from the above page, of those whom have practiced human sacrifice at some point.

Chinese
Mongols
Mesoamericans
Celts
Cretans
Ancient Greeks
Phoenicians
Carthaginians
Ancient Romans
12 Tribes(The Old Testament has accounts)
Vikings
Africa(some of this has continued into modern times)
India(some of this has continued into modern times)[/list:u]

[Kallisti]

That is more what I had in mind dahling, thank you.  It seems to be such a wide spread part of the human condition, that it has probably happened everywhere at some point in the past, and I was surprised, well, a little, to see that it continues into the present in some places.

[East Coast Hustle]

Read some more books, talk to some veterans, or at least watch the history channel, there is no such thing as western civ, it is an illusion. Or rather, a collection of illusions, I think you need to grow up.

And from this all he saw was the grow up part, not that civilization is an illusion, not that there are many ways to get perspective on history, totally ignored the question about is there any culture that never praticed human sacrifice.  Amazing, but proves nicely how people only see what they want. I am glad I could count on you Pope Lou to be the voice of reason.

well, when you're trying to make a point to someone, tagging a line on the end about how they need to grow up is just about guaranteed to divert their attention away from the point you're trying ot make and on to your personal attack on them. People always look to defend themselves from attack before looking to engage in intelligent debate.

[Irreverend Hugh, KSC]

Human sacrifice, slavery of opposing tribes, not much of an immune system....

All hisorically unverified opinions that have been continuously repeated since the Conquistadors' days....and you know if men repeat something often enough it becomes a strong belief.

Human sacrifice: the only records are from the writings of Spanish chroniclers. Note: the Aztecs/Mexica and the surrounding peoples had a ritualized style of warfare known as "the Flower Wars" in which men would test themselves against each other. But besides warriors, warfare among the Triple Alliance network (the area of Central Mexico) rarely broke out among civilians.

Slavery: The Mexica "slave" system was nothing comparable to what Europeans developed. It was more based on a system of ritualized tribute and hierarchy. But those in power, could not just lord it over their peoples. The Mexica were a people governed by rule of law.

Immune System: This is used to explain the massive Indigenous die offs that occured around the time of conquests. It is wrong however. Die offs among indigenous populations occured most often when native crops and living arrangements had been destroyed by Europeans. Starvation weakens the body's immune system.

If you use the Immune System argument you must also take into account the fact that over one third of all early European conquerors themselves died off. No one ever looks at that situation because it blows the whole "Indian Immunity Weakness" myth out of the water.

BTW- Ask me anything you want about Central American civilization I learned classical Nahuatl and still have a lot of the poetry in my head.

[Irreverend Hugh, KSC]

Yes, but the Aztecs raised it to proportions practically unheard of until modern times, in sacrafices anyway.  I think it was roughly 1000 people a week at the height of their empire.  They purposefully created dissent by use of spies as a reason to go into towns recently taken over and sacrafice the lot of them.  Very nasty, very calculated.

A myth unsupported by any scientific study.

[Irreverend Hugh, KSC]

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclopedia/h/hu/human_sacrifice.htm

For those who do not click the links, here is a list, from the above page, of those whom have practiced human sacrifice at some point.

Chinese
Mongols
Mesoamericans
Celts
Cretans
Ancient Greeks
Phoenicians
Carthaginians
Ancient Romans
12 Tribes(The Old Testament has accounts)
Vikings
Africa(some of this has continued into modern times)
India(some of this has continued into modern times)[/list:u]

Chinese: Possibly but not verified.
Mongols: Only in warfare, but that's what war is.
Meso-Americans: In Mayan cases yes. But whether or not its 'sacrifice' or execution remains unknown. The anthopologists seem blinded by the prejudices and expectations of their own forebears.
Celts: Perhaps, but not within memory of any time when they identified themselves as Celts. They did practice endemic warfare, however.

As for the others who can say.

What I am saying is that human sacrifice is one of those bugbears that is used to paint someone else's culture as shit. But all cultures are infected with the virus of warfare and cruelty to more or less degrees. No one deserves to be enslaved, converted, tortured, starved, and eradicated. You all think what Hitler did was wrong, but yet you don't see that what the Spaniards did to the peoples of Central Mexico was wrong? (Hitler used the old Christian 'blood libel' too....you know the one that says that Jews sacrifice babies. What's the difference between Hitler's using the blood-libel and the Spaniards' use of it?)

Besides, it really irks me hearing all of you people go one about the "Aztecs" and shit as if you know, when all you are doing is repeating the poorly thought out myths of those White and Hispanic Americans who believe themselves to be of the "master race"....oh wait...it's not polite to call it that now....we'll just call it "Global Society" now because the Hannibal Lector Civilization called Western Europe is now devouring the globe.

[East Coast Hustle]

we know exactly as much as you do.

which is to say, we can only know what we've pieced together by researching the accounts of others, since not a damn one of us was actually around at the time of the Aztec empire. Who's to say which version is correct?

[Irreverend Hugh, KSC]

we know exactly as much as you do.

which is to say, we can only know what we've pieced together by researching the accounts of others, since not a damn one of us was actually around at the time of the Aztec empire. Who's to say which version is correct?

Also incorrect. The Aztecs, one must remember are still around today. There are over two million of them living in Central Mexico and speaking a modern version of the old Nahuatl language (which was incidentally the lingua franca of most of Mexico up until the Revolution of 1910). The Aztecs were literate and left records of their account of the conquest. A published study that is accessible to the public is the title "Broken Spears," look it up. You may also wish to peruse, if you can, the studies of Classical Nahuatl culture published by the University of Mexico.

As for sacrifice, there are some key things to look for in remains of ancient structures to determine if it was a probability. As for the surviving ruins of Aztec and other Central Mexican people, nothing has been found that suggests probability.

In terms of religion, the White Man's whole "Indian Savage Sacrificer" myth has been discredited for at least the past thirty years. With the Nahuatl-speaking Aztecs and other peoples, the highest form of ritual devotion was the recitation of poetry, believe it or not. Some of the more religious minded of them would do penance such as pricking their fingers or tongues....but that is a common practice worldwide.

we know exactly as much as you do.

which is to say, we can only know what we've pieced together by researching the accounts of others, since not a damn one of us was actually around at the time of the Aztec empire. Who's to say which version is correct?

Actually, here, it appears I know a bit more. But anyone can learn to unthink the myths of the Conquering Race and start to delve into what the actual indigenous peoples themselves think about all this bullshit.

[Eldora, Oracle of Alchemy]

The only weakness in the immune system that I know about is a lack of exposure.  The Natives got sick more often and got sicker for the same reason boots boy got sicker than me.  I was exposed to some of the nasitest viruses around when my son was an infant and a toddler.  Roughly the first year or two of his life.  For a while there he, we actually, would just barely get over one virus before the next one hit.  This included the RSV virus, which is nasty and can be deadly for infants which was when he got it.

And thanks for trying to set the record straight, Hugh.  They are listening to you about as well as they listened to me.  This was all the stuff I was looking for and had not been able to find.  I have lots of stuff on other groups, but not the Aztecs or other groups from that region.  And Thanks again.

[East Coast Hustle]

I wasn't discounting Hugh's apparently considerable knowledge of the subject, I was just making the point that it still comes from records and accounts of people who are long gone. And I didn't say there were no Aztecs left, I said that no one alive today was around during the time of the Aztec Empire. basically, it's all hearsay, though I am inclined to believe that Hugh has studied it to a greater depth than the rest of us. And I will check out that book, Hugh.

[Kallisti]

Thank you Hugh, I do hope that GitMo character reads your words of wisdom, you may not be an expert, but compared to the rest of us, you are.

[Irreverend Hugh, KSC]

I wasn't discounting Hugh's apparently considerable knowledge of the subject, I was just making the point that it still comes from records and accounts of people who are long gone. And I didn't say there were no Aztecs left, I said that no one alive today was around during the time of the Aztec Empire. basically, it's all hearsay, though I am inclined to believe that Hugh has studied it to a greater depth than the rest of us. And I will check out that book, Hugh.

You are correct. None of us were around. But since all we have to go on are records left by people some five hundred years ago, who should we trust? I tend to err on the side of the people who are being conquered since the conquerors tend to have agendas. And the old blood libel has been used for millenia. The romans used it against the Celts. The Catholics used it against the Jews and the Muslims. The Muslims used it against the Jews and Christians (and the African religious groups).

There is a considerable library of written accounts by Nahuatl-speaking peoples (many of the Mexica, some of the from other ethnic groups) both in the Native glyph writing systems and in the roman alphabet that the Mexica learned from the Spaniards. I myself have a lot of photocopies of some of the stuff from back when I studied it...about 12 years ago.

The Aztecs were incredibly refined in terms of urban civilizations are concerned, at least according to the accounts. Imagine a society in which the highest act of devotion to the sacred is poetry. They also had in impressively complex cosmology....they also had a more highly advanced medical system...nothing compared to Western medicine of today, but for five hundred years ago, it was on par with China, if not more advanced.

Also, a lot of keen insights into Classical Nahuatl society have been made by Nahuatl-speaking scientists of today. Many of them in the field of archaeology. It seems that the cosmology has survived intact among today's Nahuatl speakers...and the cosmology is central to understanding the native approaches to everything from architecture to literature.

So while it is true that all we have are accounts. It is not completely true.

Incidentally if any of you are interested in the religious/spiritual conceptions of the Aztecs, I can give you the site url and email of someone who practices it in this day and age.