Memorandum #4 - Beliefs and Theories

[Penumbral]

Memorandum #4 - Beliefs and Theories

It is staggering to see how much of our modern world is shaped by beliefs and theories. Beliefs and Theories. There can be nothing else, but people don't even release that other peoples beliefs and theories are just as correct as theirs -wrong-. People do things based on theories that have been proven wrong or are disbelieved by many "smart" people. So dose this make their beliefs wrong or bad? Yes, yours too, as well as mine. Beliefs and theories. Any belief will be wrong by more then one theory and/or beliefs and no theory is belief less. It's a belief that makes prostitution illegal and drugs "wrong". It's a belief that makes people wheezy when you mention sex changes, or cringe at the mention of gays. On the other side it's a theory that states that god created the world, or that Chaos has any real meaning. Theories state that man evolved from animals, and that the world will end. My point is that Beliefs and theories don't matter. It doesn't even matter what's true. You can spend all your time coming up with a belief or theory and it might even be "true", but will it really change anything? No. So beliefs don't matter theories suck and you are right in the middle of it. Can anyone prove that the world was not created 2 minutes ago with everything already on it? That your ideas your experiences where created in you just minutes ago? No. maybe its all in your mind, your brain actually created all of this and you lie in a hospital bed somewhere suffering from coma. So what should we base systems on? We need systems right? If you need a system to function at least try to base it on things that exist. What exists? No... Ok prove that what exists!
-"believing that what you believe doesn't matter is still a belief."-
Penumbral

So There![/color][/size]

[riff]

It's true that our lives are based on belief -- they can't possibly not be.  Everything we experience exists only within our heads.  When you look at an apple, you don't see it as being red because the apple 'is' red or has any inherant 'redness'.  You see red because light reflects off of the apple in a certain way, which hits receptors in your eyeballs in a certain way, which causes your eyes to send nerve impulses to your brain in a certain way.  Your brain takes this information, and interprets it for you, into a mental image of a "red apple".  If your eyes were a little different, the apple wouldn't be red.  Ask any color-blind person.  Or even better, ask someone afflicted with synaesthesia, who "sees" sounds and "hears" colors.

We do not -- can not -- experience any "real" objective reality.  We live in a hologram, created by our brains in an attempt to explain to us the sensory information it's receiving from the objective universe.  Everyone's brain is a little different, therefore everyone's hologram, their "reality" is a little different.  Bats live in the same objective capital-R Reality as us, but they don't use light to see -- they use reflected sound waves instead.  Their universes are completely different from our own, and you could not possibly accurately imagine what it's like to live in their "reality".  And yet, being mammals, their brains are not significantly different from our own.

To use a pop-culture metaphor, this is The Matrix.  But instead of all of us living together in the same Matrix, we each live in our own Matrix, created for us by our own brains.  "There is no spoon."  You see what you believe you see -- what your brain tells you you see.  

Your statement that beliefs suck and don't matter is as wrong as can be.  You can't live without beliefs, because, being unable in any way to perceive any Objective Reality, your beliefs are all you have to live in.

[SMFabal]

Well, lets approach this from a slightly different angle:
Penumbral, you believe that beliefs don't matter. Ain't that about a bitch?

Beliefs matter. You cannot interact with the world without beliefs. Do you believe that you must open a door bofore walkin through the doorway said door occupies? It all about what you, yourself, have experienced. Why does every child touch a hot stove?

What you believe doesn't matter. It either works or it doesn't. If it works, great. If not, change, or become a Greyface.

I Believe.

[Penumbral]

You are both missing the point (probobly all my falt.) The point is:

When you look at an apple, you don't see it as being red because the apple 'is' red or has any inherant 'redness'.  You see red because light reflects off of the apple in a certain way, which hits receptors in your eyeballs in a certain way, which causes your eyes to send nerve impulses to your brain in a certain way.  Your brain takes this information, and interprets it for you, into a mental image of a "red apple".  If your eyes were a little different, the apple wouldn't be red.  Ask any color-blind person.  Or even better, ask someone afflicted with synaesthesia, who "sees" sounds and "hears" colors.

We do not -- can not -- experience any "real" objective reality.  We live in a hologram, created by our brains in an attempt to explain to us the sensory information it's receiving from the objective universe.  Everyone's brain is a little different, therefore everyone's hologram, their "reality" is a little different.  Bats live in the same objective capital-R Reality as us, but they don't use light to see -- they use reflected sound waves instead.  Their universes are completely different from our own, and you could not possibly accurately imagine what it's like to live in their "reality".  And yet, being mammals, their brains are not significantly different from our own.

That this belief dosent matter beacuse it dosent change anything! or do Anything!

And anouther point: People can base there whole life on the apple being red. They are wrong. But they eather dont care or don't know, and they base there life on somthing false. This is just an apple not a big deal, but there are people who have major beliefs that juge OUR life. Laws based on christion principals. Principals that many people here would argue false.

Your statement that beliefs suck and don't matter is as wrong as can be.  You can't live without beliefs, because, being unable in any way to perceive any Objective Reality, your beliefs are all you have to live in.

Hello? Yes. You live in your beliefs. My point is your all living in falsehood. Espsally me.
I tried to write this as ratical as I could.
I also tried to point that out a small bit when I said.
-"believing that what you believe doesn't matter is still a belief."-

[Slarti]

are you going to post the AIM convos? or are you just ignoring that stuff

[riff]

That this belief dosent matter beacuse it dosent change anything! or do Anything!

Er, I'm not sure I understand that sentence.  The "that" at the front confuses me.  Rephrase?

And anouther point: People can base there whole life on the apple being red. They are wrong.

My point is that they're not wrong.  In their universe, the apple is red.  In a color-blind man's universe, the apple is gray.  In a bat's universe, the apple is... well, you'd have to be a bat to know.  All of these points of view (point of views?) are correct, in terms of their individual experiential universes.

But they eather dont care or don't know, and they base there life on somthing false.

They base their life on something that is true, insofar as their own universe is concerned.  Things may be different in your universe, but that only makes them 'false' insofar as your universe is concerned, not theirs.  I may see an apple as 'red', and you may see it as 'green', and Eris may see it as 'gold', and each of us is correct in our universe, and incorrect in the others'.

There is no alternative.  The "True Objective Reality" is completely unknowable.  You can't experience it, or interact with it, and therefore you can't base your life on it.

This is just an apple not a big deal, but there are people who have major beliefs that juge OUR life. Laws based on christion principals. Principals that many people here would argue false.

(shrug) Yeah, sometimes realities collide.  People don't understand that what is true for themselves is not true for everyone.  

Just because their beliefs are false in our universes, it makes them no less true in their own.  And I'm sure that, in their universes, our beliefs are false.

Hello? Yes. You live in your beliefs. My point is your all living in falsehood. Espsally me.

Not falsehood, but truth.  We simply don't share the same truths, is all.

[Slarti]

That this belief dosent matter beacuse it dosent change anything! or do Anything!

Er, I'm not sure I understand that sentence.  The "that" at the front confuses me.  Rephrase?

i think he was saying (if you'll look above the quote his post):

You are both missing the point (probobly all my falt.) The point is:
That this belief dosent matter beacuse it dosent change anything! or do Anything!

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anyway, i basically agree with everything you said Riff. It's exactly what the PD said about grids. Just because our reality grid is different from that other guy's reality grid, that doesn't mean yours or his is more valid.

while i believe that, the problem arises (at least for me) when i try to act that way. even though i agree that other peoples grids are as valid as mine, that doesn't seem to stop me from insulting theirs.

i wish i was more like Joe Malik from schroedinger's cat (by RAW), since it said he could switch grids at will.

i'm trying to adopt the position where i don't impose my grid on other people's, but i'll explain my grid if i am asked to. unfortunately, i'm very outspoken, so it's hard to keep ideas to myself.

where do you draw the line between expressing opinions and imposing your grid on other people?

[Sir Lyall]

When they impose their grid upon you, I suppose you could push back with your grid.

Of course this could make matters more complex. My main grid right now holds that it is intruded upon just by sitting in school not really learning anything in a lot of my classes. It would allow me to justify (for myself at least) a lot of (what other grids I keep around say is unnessesary) rebellion. The line you draw is a function of your grid. But that would lead to just the antagonism that you wish to avoid. So the idea, then, is to have as many grids as possible.

Nothing wrong with having a grid, but something wrong with having one grid. Quantity over quality in this case? Aint' that what mindfucks are all about?

[riff]

i think he was saying (if you'll look above the quote his post):

You are both missing the point (probobly all my falt.) The point is:
That this belief dosent matter beacuse it dosent change anything! or do Anything!

Ohh, I see.  My bad.
Well, in that case, Penumbral, I can't say much more than... so?  What does matter, then?

anyway, i basically agree with everything you said Riff. It's exactly what the PD said about grids. Just because our reality grid is different from that other guy's reality grid, that doesn't mean yours or his is more valid.

Yes, it's pretty much the entirety of what RAW's Quantum Psychology is about.  A great read.

while i believe that, the problem arises (at least for me) when i try to act that way. even though i agree that other peoples grids are as valid as mine, that doesn't seem to stop me from insulting theirs.

It's hard not to, when someone else's "truth" is "false" to you.  I'm the same way.  But, you know what they say about the first step to solving a problem...

i wish i was more like Joe Malik from schroedinger's cat (by RAW), since it said he could switch grids at will.

The ability to do so is one of the big wossnames of Chaos Magick.  I don't mess with that very much, anymore, but more info can be had around here

i'm trying to adopt the position where i don't impose my grid on other people's, but i'll explain my grid if i am asked to. unfortunately, i'm very outspoken, so it's hard to keep ideas to myself.

where do you draw the line between expressing opinions and imposing your grid on other people?

Try to completely remove the word "is" (and other forms of the verb "to be": 'I am', 'you are', 'it was', etc.) from your speech.  Don't say "The apple is red" or "Bob is an asshole".  Instead, say "The apple looks red to me" or "Bob behaved like an asshole yesterday."  It's a challenge, and not an easy one!  Also, read Stranger in a Strange Land, and make careful note of the way Anne and the other (damn, what were they called? Honest Witnesses? something?) behave.  "Anne, what color is that house?" "It looks blue on this side, Boss."

[Slarti]

dude that's awesome - i was just reading about e-prime (language removing the word 'to be') yesterday.

thanks for the chaos magic link, it looks interesting.

did RAW do Stranger in a Strange Land? the titles sounds familiar...

[SMFabal]

Stranger in a Strange Land was Robert Hienlien. I base most of my personal philosophy from that novel, Number of the Beast (Hienlien), Mort (Pratchett) and Illuminati! (Wilson & Shea)

[Penumbral]

That this belief dosent matter beacuse it dosent change anything! or do Anything!

Er, I'm not sure I understand that sentence.  The "that" at the front confuses me.  Rephrase?

Yeah Stari got this one.

They base their life on something that is true, insofar as their own universe is concerned.  Things may be different in your universe, but that only makes them 'false' insofar as your universe is concerned, not theirs.  I may see an apple as 'red', and you may see it as 'green', and Eris may see it as 'gold', and each of us is correct in our universe, and incorrect in the others'.

Yes so is there universe any more correct them mine. And if you said no then you said they are both wrong... compaired to each other.
Dose that give anyone the right to juge what is right for other people, or what beliefs are "true" for others? you are saying no, and I am saying that you are right.

There is no alternative.  The "True Objective Reality" is completely unknowable.  You can't experience it, or interact with it, and therefore you can't base your life on it.

So what you are saying here is exsactly what oI have been saying. That all beliefs are when put in a general perspective wrong.

(shrug) Yeah, sometimes realities collide.  People don't understand that what is true for themselves is not true for everyone.

Now you catching on to what I am getting at! As I gave examples to in the original post.

Just because their beliefs are false in our universes, it makes them no less true in their own.  And I'm sure that, in their universes, our beliefs are false.

(things placed in bold by Penumbral)

Try to completely remove the word "is" (and other forms of the verb "to be": 'I am', 'you are', 'it was', etc.) from your speech.  Don't say "The apple is red" or "Bob is an asshole".  Instead, say "The apple looks red to me" or "Bob behaved like an asshole yesterday."  It's a challenge, and not an easy one!

Wow Perfict I must say.

[riff]

Yes so is there universe any more correct them mine. And if you said no then you said they are both wrong... compaired to each other.

So what you are saying here is exsactly what oI have been saying. That all beliefs are when put in a general perspective wrong.

The point of contention is in your use of words like 'wrong' and 'false' -- I don't feel that any of these 'belief systems', or 'universes', or 'grids' can be wrong.  They're all right, all true, they just disagree.  Perhaps if someone else's universe disagrees with your own, you could consider them "wrong" from your own personal perspective, but that doesn't mean anything in a larger sense.

all beliefs are when put in a general perspective wrong.

Wrong in whose judgement?  They're just different, that's all.

[riff]

thanks for the chaos magic link, it looks interesting.

It's kinda like LSD -- I recommend it, but only if your head's screwed on nice and tight.  To borrow a term from Terry Pratchett, a fair amount of it's just headology... but there's definitely something else there if you're patient and willing to put in the work.

Always banish with laughter, and don't call up anything you can't put on hold.

[riff]

Stranger in a Strange Land was Robert Hienlien. I base most of my personal philosophy from that novel, Number of the Beast (Hienlien), Mort (Pratchett) and Illuminati! (Wilson & Shea)

That's interesting, what did you get from Mort?