The TROOF about Discordians.

[Cain]

Okay, time to put in my 2 pence (thats like an hours pay in Americorp, right?).

Anyway, I dont think the OP was trying to say this is how Discordians should be, more that based on his experience, probably at the hands of us terrible people, this is how Discordians are generally like.  A description, rather than proscription.

Anyway, where did all this happy nonsense come from?  As far as I recall, Eris was the goddess of (among other things) strife, something modern Discordians bought into.  Hell, why else do we applaud Bush and Bin Laden and a host of others as Eristic Avatars?  They cause Discord and Chaos and lead to Strife.  The only "evil" in Discordianism is order for the sake of it, believing order to be a good, regardless of its consequences.  Sure, Eris may have mellowed over time, but the last time She was spotted she was spawning demons and dragging dead bodies around battlefields.  Its not that hard to mellow from there.

The current paradigm can be changed without violence...but normally the Gods favour the sides with the biggest guns, the best trained troops and the largest regiments.  Besides, what has "progress" gotten us?  A more sophisticated cage, with slightly shinier goods?  Thats how They buy you off.  Just look at how worker militancy has faded in the first world, for an example.  Oh, and better weapons, cant forget the better weapons as an example of progress...

Most people are not good.  Most people are small minded, conservative, not to smart and distrustful of cleverness in other people.  And it gets worse.  Even sheep are better than most people, becuse at least sheep dont try and take a bit out of each other when running from the wolves.  Soon enough you'll see its not that society in and of itself is bad, but the people involved in it are.  Its not that we have the wrong sort of politics, religion or whatever, its the wrong sort of people who create the damn system that exists!

[The seer]

Hesiod wrote about Eris as haing two Facets.

o, after all, there was not one kind of Strife alone, but all over the earth there are two. As for the one, a man would praise her when he came to understand her; but the other is blameworthy: and they are wholly different in nature.

For one fosters evil war and battle, being cruel: her no man loves; but perforce, through the will of the deathless gods, men pay harsh Strife her honour due.

But the other is the elder daughter of dark Night (Nyx), and the son of Cronus who sits above and dwells in the aether, set her in the roots of the earth: and she is far kinder to men. She stirs up even the shiftless to toil; for a man grows eager to work when he considers his neighbour, a rich man who hastens to plough and plant and put his house in good order; and neighbour vies with is neighbour as he hurries after wealth. This Strife is wholesome for men. And potter is angry with potter, and craftsman with craftsman, and beggar is jealous of beggar, and minstrel of minstrel.

We know history favours the victors, and as such so do the gods, because they are the victors correct? honest citizens of their empire? How can the gods not favour them as leaders, and victorious at that?

If you notice however, Eris herself has never been known to favour anyone, Even Hesiod fails to mention that. He mentions the jealousy between individuals, that makes them compete. Yet Eris herself has said:

I have come to tell you that you are free. Many ages ago, My consciousness left man, that he might develop himself. I return to find this development approaching completion, but hindered by fear and by misunderstanding.

    You have built for yourselves psychic suits of armor, and clad in them, your vision is restricted, your movements are clumsy and painful, your skin is bruised, and your spirit is broiled in the sun.

   I am chaos. I am the substance from which your artists and scientists build rhythms. I am the spirit with which your children and clowns laugh in happy anarchy. I am chaos. I am alive, and I tell you that you are free.

Eris is the unease and the creative impulse. The happiness shit you speak of has nothing at all to do with sitting in the corner chanting "all is calm, all is well" You'd have to be thick to do that anyway. But if eris is the spirit in which children and clowns frollic, is there not some form of happiness to be sought?

Can happiness only be mindless? And to seek it as a goal is to do nothing but think happy thoughts is it? to deny reality?

As an optimist I'm talking about the other axis of the graph: Creative/Destructive. Greyface asserted that the important divide was between order and disorder, and as the principia points out we are thus left with all of the destructive aspects of order as well as its creative aspects. To emphasise chaos purely as a desrective process is to take greyface, stand him on his head, and read him upside down; There's a subtle difference which gives you a crick in the neck.

Ultimately then having dismissed chaos as purely destructive and order as ultimately destructive and spirit-crushing we embrace nihlism, because there is nothing of worth to be gained, nothing above or below us. Now perhaps it is time to add:

"There is what is said and what is done
What is done reveals what is felt
And just as the bitter heart finds no Joy,
so too does the bitter leader create no joyous followers.[/list:u]

Simply put, if you believe that chaos and order are ultimately fruitless then your nihlism will be just as negative. John Lenon said a nihlistic thing or two:
"Imagine there's no heaven.
It's easy if you try
No Hell below us.
Above us only sky"

Now was he optimistic or pessimistic in that instance?

I disagree with the thesis that predominant human behaviours are natural and unchangeable, that's an excuse used to justify both helpless rage and centuries of idiocy. And yet in one breath, while acknowledging the role of consciousness in behaviour and it's manipulation you say it is unchangeable.

As an optimist I say that is false, and I am called mindless and misguided? I find that odd. What keeps you alive if the machine is only going to crush you and spit out your bones?

[renko]

If Im not mistaken, discordianism isnt just about embracing disorder is it? ITs all about realizing that both order and disorder are neccecary components of the world and both will always exist. I mean isnt that what the Chao is? or when it talks about the eristic and aneristic illusions, it specifically says that both are illusions. Discordianism is about embracing creativity, both orderly creativity and disorderly creativity, over destruction of any kind. Ill qutoe the principia at length:

" To choose order over disorder, or disorder over order, is to accept a trip composed of both the creative and the destructive. But to choose the creative over the destructive is an all-creative trip composed of both order and disorder.
 The Curse of Greyface included the division of life into order/disorder as the essential positive/negative polarity, instead of building a game foundation with creative/destructive as the essential positive/negative. He has thereby caused man to endure the destructive aspects of order and has prevented man from effectively participating in the creative uses of disorder. Civilization reflects this unfortunate division.
 POEE proclaims that the other division is preferable, and we work toward the proposition that creative disorder, like creative order, is possible and desirable; and that destructive order, like destructive disorder, is unnecessary and undesirable."

That page alone was what made me go and read the rest of the PD and to me its still the best simple summary of the philisophy discordianism around.
You guys seem to be missing this fact, that discordians are not trying to destroy, we are trying to create. This is how I interperate the PD and you guys seem to be going the other way with it.

[Chlorine]

If you think they're missing the point, just ignore them and go on with your business. That's what I do. Go to the grocery store and cruise the aisles for free sample stands. That's also what I do.

[B_M_W]

As an optimist I say that is false, and I am called mindless and misguided? I find that odd. What keeps you alive if the machine is only going to crush you and spit out your bones?

In TGGR's case, pure raw vengfull hatred. In mine, ascthetics, and a few other principles. Plus, the anticipation of "The Lemmings at the Cliff".

[LHX]

As an optimist I say that is false, and I am called mindless and misguided? I find that odd. What keeps you alive if the machine is only going to crush you and spit out your bones?

In TGGR's case, pure raw vengfull hatred. In mine, ascthetics, and a few other principles. Plus, the anticipation of "The Lemmings at the Cliff".

plus
the inability to die


(FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK)

[nurbldoff]

It is also considered (by me) a discordian virtue to disagree.

You're all doing great!

[renko]

It is also considered (by me) a discordian virtue to disagree.

You're all doing great!

I agree.

[B_M_W]

As an optimist I say that is false, and I am called mindless and misguided? I find that odd. What keeps you alive if the machine is only going to crush you and spit out your bones?

In TGGR's case, pure raw vengfull hatred. In mine, ascthetics, and a few other principles. Plus, the anticipation of "The Lemmings at the Cliff".

plus
the inability to die


(FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK)

Well, yeah, for Roger. I, personally, have not had any attacks on my life yet, so I wouldn't know if that applies to me. Most likely its just that no one can garantee satisfaction, as usual.

[Zurtok Khan]

Pretty much everything in this thread.

Though perhaps you might clear that up for me.
Is discordianism a spiritual and/or religious practice to you and/or ZK or do you treat it as something else? Because as it appears to me from the description you're describing socially desirable personality traits before someone can have the label "Discordian" so if you think of it that way it sounds more like a "good housekeeping" article.

I suppose that may have some kind of use in a religious sense but I don't see it having much to do with the spiritual side.

That's a good question, my friend Seer.  And here is your answer:

Religion as a whole seeks to promote certain traits among it's members, first in the realm of changing (or reinforcing) certain thought patterns, which then filter down into words and actions (assuming the change has taken place properly).  Discordianism does the same thing.  There is a model of human behavior given, and social thought patterns broken down and reconstructed that are unique to Discordianism and Discordians.  The reason (as I see it) that these thought patterns are succesful (and what makes them different) is that instead of attempting to reconstruct, Discordianism seems to simply reinforce ANY thought pattern, no matter how absurd, but it all comes with the simple caveat that Eris will play with you, just for fun (hers not yours).  (Please to note: I just got off a 9 hour shift at wal-mart so my brain is a touch fried, if I am unclear, ask and I shall fix it).

And, I don't see Discordianism so much as a spirituality or a religion.  I think it can be a doorway to religion in someways.  I'm sure I know what I mean, and if it interests you I will explain it tomorrow when I'm more awake.

I'm very militant about that point, because as you may or may not becoming aware of, the world is run by religious people who only experience god in contrived settings. This actually makes them dangerous. There are various reasons why as I'm sure you could make a list.

You sir, amuse me.  They are somehow more dangerous because they've experianced "God" in a contrived setting?  No, they're dangerous because they like to play.  Just like Eris, they play the game for the game's sake.  Do I like them for it?  Not really.  Do I like Eris for it?  Some days.  Why?  Because I feel like I should be able to change something about the what Bush, Dick and his crew are doing.  But, I haven't gotten off my ass to do anything, so what right do I really have to whine if I won't try to get things changed?  These "dangerous" people probably haven't experianced "God" in any setting, or if they have they were to stupid to notice (or possibily too smart to believe it).  Trying to use religion as your measure of a man shows me you're no better then them.

Ohh, and Seer, insulting Roger isn't the best way to...ahh what the hell, do it.  I'm sure I'll have a laugh if you get on his nerves.

ya, Im disagreeing. I guess I interpreted the principia differently. The way I see it Discordians are more laid back, easy going, and good-natured. We should have sympathy and agreeability and love, those are all good qualities. you shouldnt be a complete jerkoff just so your "different" or whatever. Thats not accomplishing anything. I say if the principia has one overall message its not to be serious but to be funloving and light-hearted. Your making us sound like assholes and eris knows there are enough assholes in the world.

Plus, if ya really wanna change things, then youve gotta have some credibility amoungst people, and you instantly lose credibility with most if you lack sympathy, agreeability or love.

Im agreeing with seer here. Although Im not as into the spiritual aspect, I agree that the world is run by religious people who follow, strict, and completely insane dogmas that they will never deviate from. The USA is one step away from a theocracy. For every kid in my school that I make question their faith, or at the very least, see that atheists arent evil immoral people, thats one more point for our side and one less for the impending theocracy.

So, in short, lighten up. Dont be a jackass just becuase you dont want to go by the laws of what society tells you is appropiate conduct. Show some goddamn empathy for other people.

You missed the point.  The whole entire point.  The point is not to be laid-back, fun-loving, and to shoot rainbows out of your ass.  The point she is a Goddess of CHAOS and STRIFE.  You have both Constructive and Destructive Chaos.  Sure, sure, sure, that includes love and light, but don't try to limit it to love and light.  Experiance the whole fucking range of emotion.

And, fuck society.  Somehow I think some of the people remaining silent on this topic (Hugh and Bella come to mind) would agree, at least on some level.  Both of them, while nice and polite when appropriate will still tell you to go KYSNFTB (or better yet, let someone else do it) if you step out of line.  It's just a bit harder to get them to say it.  

If you really want to change things, you're going to stand up and make a riot.  Not sit on your ass agreeing that "yes, something needs to be done"  or, "ohh, I feel so sorry for those thousands of kids that DIE OF STARVATION every day, but I want to buy a new CD so they can starve."  That's called being a fat-shit.  If you think anything is going to change through agreeability and sympathy, you've got your head screwed on the wrong way.

Love is certainly an important component to changing something, but not the kind you mean.  It's a tough love, that is dedication not a, "I love everybody" while tripping on mushrooms or whatever spiritual nonsense is getting you through the day.  A labour of love requires commitment and sacrifice.  Not empty words about what is wrong or right in the world.

[/quote]

[Cain]

I think I have a newfound respect for you, Mr Zurtok.  I would have answered my original point before now, but I have a honking great paper on Alexandrain poetry that still needs to be killed off.

[Zurtok Khan]

Which just goes to show how little you actually think.

You say it is impossible to be positive without being blind to all the goings wrong around us. There's nothing to say that a person cannot have hopes for  some kind of positive outcome while still acknowledging the state the planet is in. You embrace your negativity as being more true because you have set your impression of optimism as being inherently flawed.
You take one experience of an optimist and accuse all people who think positively of being shiny happy people. Sounds to me like you're a big believer in universals, like jim jones, pat robertson, Bush...

Looking at reality a certain way and calling it pessimism is to deny what it is.  The same goes for optimism.  Stop trying to apply value judgements to EVERYTHING IN THE FUCKING WORLD.
(which is basically what Fred already said)

ROGER:  You're welcome to use it however you want (although I will be editing it soon...so you might want to wait) as long as I'm credited as follows:

Zurtok Khan
12/10/2005

That is all for you.

ANYONE WHO WANTS TO TAKE THINGS LITTERALLY: (Seer and Renko)  You have missed the point.  You deserve to work for GWB.  Even he knows some things aren't litteral (even if he can't pronounce it).

That is all.

[East Coast Hustle]

ya, Im disagreeing. I guess I interpreted the principia differently. The way I see it Discordians are more laid back, easy going, and good-natured. We should have sympathy and agreeability and love, those are all good qualities. you shouldnt be a complete jerkoff just so your "different" or whatever. Thats not accomplishing anything. I say if the principia has one overall message its not to be serious but to be funloving and light-hearted.  Your making us sound like assholes and eris knows there are enough assholes in the world.

Plus, if ya really wanna change things, then youve gotta have some credibility amoungst people, and you instantly lose credibility with most if you lack sympathy, agreeability or love.

Im agreeing with seer here. Although Im not as into the spiritual aspect, I agree that the world is run by religious people who follow, strict, and completely insane dogmas that they will never deviate from. The USA is one step away from a theocracy. For every kid in my school that I make question their faith, or at the very least, see that atheists arent evil immoral people, thats one more point for our side and one less for the impending theocracy.

So, in short, lighten up. Dont be a jackass just becuase you dont want to go by the laws of what society tells you is appropiate conduct. Show some goddamn empathy for other people.

HIPPIE!!!

[East Coast Hustle]

If Im not mistaken, discordianism isnt just about embracing disorder is it? ITs all about realizing that both order and disorder are neccecary components of the world and both will always exist. I mean isnt that what the Chao is? or when it talks about the eristic and aneristic illusions, it specifically says that both are illusions. Discordianism is about embracing creativity, both orderly creativity and disorderly creativity, over destruction of any kind. Ill qutoe the principia at length:

" To choose order over disorder, or disorder over order, is to accept a trip composed of both the creative and the destructive. But to choose the creative over the destructive is an all-creative trip composed of both order and disorder.
 The Curse of Greyface included the division of life into order/disorder as the essential positive/negative polarity, instead of building a game foundation with creative/destructive as the essential positive/negative. He has thereby caused man to endure the destructive aspects of order and has prevented man from effectively participating in the creative uses of disorder. Civilization reflects this unfortunate division.
 POEE proclaims that the other division is preferable, and we work toward the proposition that creative disorder, like creative order, is possible and desirable; and that destructive order, like destructive disorder, is unnecessary and undesirable."

That page alone was what made me go and read the rest of the PD and to me its still the best simple summary of the philisophy discordianism around.
You guys seem to be missing this fact, that discordians are not trying to destroy, we are trying to create. This is how I interperate the PD and you guys seem to be going the other way with it.

POEE != all Discordians

[East Coast Hustle]

Pretty much everything in this thread.

Though perhaps you might clear that up for me.
Is discordianism a spiritual and/or religious practice to you and/or ZK or do you treat it as something else? Because as it appears to me from the description you're describing socially desirable personality traits before someone can have the label "Discordian" so if you think of it that way it sounds more like a "good housekeeping" article.

I suppose that may have some kind of use in a religious sense but I don't see it having much to do with the spiritual side.

That's a good question, my friend Seer.  And here is your answer:

Religion as a whole seeks to promote certain traits among it's members, first in the realm of changing (or reinforcing) certain thought patterns, which then filter down into words and actions (assuming the change has taken place properly).  Discordianism does the same thing.  There is a model of human behavior given, and social thought patterns broken down and reconstructed that are unique to Discordianism and Discordians.  The reason (as I see it) that these thought patterns are succesful (and what makes them different) is that instead of attempting to reconstruct, Discordianism seems to simply reinforce ANY thought pattern, no matter how absurd, but it all comes with the simple caveat that Eris will play with you, just for fun (hers not yours).  (Please to note: I just got off a 9 hour shift at wal-mart so my brain is a touch fried, if I am unclear, ask and I shall fix it).

And, I don't see Discordianism so much as a spirituality or a religion.  I think it can be a doorway to religion in someways.  I'm sure I know what I mean, and if it interests you I will explain it tomorrow when I'm more awake.

I'm very militant about that point, because as you may or may not becoming aware of, the world is run by religious people who only experience god in contrived settings. This actually makes them dangerous. There are various reasons why as I'm sure you could make a list.

You sir, amuse me.  They are somehow more dangerous because they've experianced "God" in a contrived setting?  No, they're dangerous because they like to play.  Just like Eris, they play the game for the game's sake.  Do I like them for it?  Not really.  Do I like Eris for it?  Some days.  Why?  Because I feel like I should be able to change something about the what Bush, Dick and his crew are doing.  But, I haven't gotten off my ass to do anything, so what right do I really have to whine if I won't try to get things changed?  These "dangerous" people probably haven't experianced "God" in any setting, or if they have they were to stupid to notice (or possibily too smart to believe it).  Trying to use religion as your measure of a man shows me you're no better then them.

Ohh, and Seer, insulting Roger isn't the best way to...ahh what the hell, do it.  I'm sure I'll have a laugh if you get on his nerves.

ya, Im disagreeing. I guess I interpreted the principia differently. The way I see it Discordians are more laid back, easy going, and good-natured. We should have sympathy and agreeability and love, those are all good qualities. you shouldnt be a complete jerkoff just so your "different" or whatever. Thats not accomplishing anything. I say if the principia has one overall message its not to be serious but to be funloving and light-hearted. Your making us sound like assholes and eris knows there are enough assholes in the world.

Plus, if ya really wanna change things, then youve gotta have some credibility amoungst people, and you instantly lose credibility with most if you lack sympathy, agreeability or love.

Im agreeing with seer here. Although Im not as into the spiritual aspect, I agree that the world is run by religious people who follow, strict, and completely insane dogmas that they will never deviate from. The USA is one step away from a theocracy. For every kid in my school that I make question their faith, or at the very least, see that atheists arent evil immoral people, thats one more point for our side and one less for the impending theocracy.

So, in short, lighten up. Dont be a jackass just becuase you dont want to go by the laws of what society tells you is appropiate conduct. Show some goddamn empathy for other people.

You missed the point.  The whole entire point.  The point is not to be laid-back, fun-loving, and to shoot rainbows out of your ass.  The point she is a Goddess of CHAOS and STRIFE.  You have both Constructive and Destructive Chaos.  Sure, sure, sure, that includes love and light, but don't try to limit it to love and light.  Experiance the whole fucking range of emotion.

And, fuck society.  Somehow I think some of the people remaining silent on this topic (Death to Poultry and She Who Eats Souls come to mind) would agree, at least on some level.  Both of them, while nice and polite when appropriate will still tell you to go KYSNFTB (or better yet, let someone else do it) if you step out of line.  It's just a bit harder to get them to say it.  

If you really want to change things, you're going to stand up and make a riot.  Not sit on your ass agreeing that "yes, something needs to be done"  or, "ohh, I feel so sorry for those thousands of kids that DIE OF STARVATION every day, but I want to buy a new CD so they can starve."  That's called being a fat-shit.  If you think anything is going to change through agreeability and sympathy, you've got your head screwed on the wrong way.

Love is certainly an important component to changing something, but not the kind you mean.  It's a tough love, that is dedication not a, "I love everybody" while tripping on mushrooms or whatever spiritual nonsense is getting you through the day.  A labour of love requires commitment and sacrifice.  Not empty words about what is wrong or right in the world.

[/quote]

wow.

ZK, my entire opinion of you (which really wasn't based on anything substantial to begin with) just did a 180 with this post.

fucking rah.