Rant 153: Freedom?

[LHX]

Must it be ,Äúabove and below,Äù something?
If there is a pattern, are you sure it,Äôs not simply a subjective observation?

'it depends on the creativity of the observer'

are the i ching and kabala subjective?

not if they work

And anyway,

Free will means that whether or not there is some sort of pattern, you can do as you please.  Not having free will mans that you might be fooling yourself that you are doing as you please, but your entire life is predestined, and no matter what you do, nothing is random or unexpected.

i am not so sure about that

you can have free will
but
choose not to use it

maybe that is more clear

you have free will to act contrary to an observed pattern
(go against the grain)
but
you are setting yourself up for some hell

[LHX]

But both sides are simple delusional when taken to extremes.

Sure we have certain biological things that we can't control (such as the big three: Old Age, Sickness, Death). Sure a lot of our neurology is hardwired.

call me delusional or straight nuts
but
i dont subscribe to 'the big 3' anymore

And that's the rub on the determinist side - they falsely assume that hardwiring means predetermined.

BINGO

just because there may be a path
that does not mean that it APPEARS the same way all the time

you can see this when taking a look at the study of 'history'
the historical PROCESS has some importance
but
the CONTENTS of history - names / faces / dates - have virtually no significance (nor can they even be agreed upon)

Why not try to find the nature of your mind and of life for yourself and let's leave tired and worn out theories to the past.

you have to bring all the worn out theories to the surface before you can flush them
just like getting rid of an ILLNESS

[LMNO]

Must it be ,Äúabove and below,Äù something?
If there is a pattern, are you sure it,Äôs not simply a subjective observation?

'it depends on the creativity of the observer'

are the i ching and kabala subjective?

yes.

not if they work

Still subjective.  they suggest a possible structure, and it's the choices the observer makes via the interpretation that gives it shape.

And anyway,

Free will means that whether or not there is some sort of pattern, you can do as you please.  Not having free will means that you might be fooling yourself that you are doing as you please, but your entire life is predestined, and no matter what you do, nothing is random or unexpected.

i am not so sure about that

you can have free will
but
choose not to use it

maybe that is more clear

Can't believe I'm going here, but as Rush said, "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice."  Not choosing to excercise free will doesn't mean free will doesn't exist.

you have free will to act contrary to an observed pattern
(go against the grain)
but
you are setting yourself up for some hell

Why hell?
The observed pattern for the United States pop culture is American Idol, Fear Factor, Obesity, and Ignorance.  That, to me, is indeed hell.

I choose to act contrary to that pattern, and I am happier for it.

[LHX]

Still subjective.  they suggest a possible structure, and it's the choices the observer makes via the interpretation that gives it shape.

what would be your criteria for something to move from subjective to objective?

Can't believe I'm going here, but as Rush said, "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice."  Not choosing to excercise free will doesn't mean free will doesn't exist.

no argument here

i am saying it does exist
but
it may not be an exercise of good judgment to use it

Why hell?
The observed pattern for the United States pop culture is American Idol, Fear Factor, Obesity, and Ignorance.  That, to me, is indeed hell.

I choose to act contrary to that pattern, and I am happier for it.

yeah
great example

the search for righteousness is encouraged and runs rampant in all 50 states

you can get a starter kit at the local toys r us

[LMNO]

Still subjective.  they suggest a possible structure, and it's the choices the observer makes via the interpretation that gives it shape.

what would be your criteria for something to move from subjective to objective?

Good question.  Let me get back to you on that.

Can't believe I'm going here, but as Rush said, "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice."  Not choosing to excercise free will doesn't mean free will doesn't exist.

no argument here

i am saying it does exist
but
it may not be an exercise of good judgment to use it

But what pattern are you deciding to go along with, anyway?

Why hell?
The observed pattern for the United States pop culture is American Idol, Fear Factor, Obesity, and Ignorance.  That, to me, is indeed hell.

I choose to act contrary to that pattern, and I am happier for it.

yeah
great example

the search for righteousness is encouraged and runs rampant in all 50 states
you can get a starter kit at the local toys r us

:
You lost me.

[LHX]

Still subjective.  they suggest a possible structure, and it's the choices the observer makes via the interpretation that gives it shape.

what would be your criteria for something to move from subjective to objective?

Good question.  Let me get back to you on that.

i will wait impatiently

no argument here

i am saying it does exist
but
it may not be an exercise of good judgment to use it

But what pattern are you deciding to go along with, anyway?

the premise that there is an eternal pattern
and anything that runs contrary to it
is not eternal

Why hell?
The observed pattern for the United States pop culture is American Idol, Fear Factor, Obesity, and Ignorance.  That, to me, is indeed hell.

I choose to act contrary to that pattern, and I am happier for it.

yeah
great example

the search for righteousness is encouraged and runs rampant in all 50 states
you can get a starter kit at the local toys r us

:
You lost me.

do we have to debate whether america is heading in a nice direction?

isnt that kind of obvious?

[LMNO]

the premise that there is an eternal pattern
and anything that runs contrary to it
is not eternal

If there is an eternal pattern, i don't see it.

I see eddys in the eternal chaos, and I see people work hard to create negative entropy, but I don't see an eternal pattern.

do we have to debate whether america is heading in a nice direction?

isnt that kind of obvious?

Well, yes, but you can also see it as an observed pattern, and that to choose to oppose that pattern does not bring one "hell".

[LHX]

If there is an eternal pattern, i don't see it.

I see eddys in the eternal chaos, and I see people work hard to create negative entropy, but I don't see an eternal pattern.

i hate to say it man
but
that looks an awful lot like a fragment of a pattern from where i am sitting

actually
depending on what you mean when you say 'negative entropy'
it could look almost exactly like a pattern

do we have to debate whether america is heading in a nice direction?

isnt that kind of obvious?

Well, yes, but you can also see it as an observed pattern, and that to choose to oppose that pattern does not bring one "hell".

there may be a difference between a tendency and a pattern
and from what you are saying

current america also seems to fit into a lot of other patterns
(usually toward the end of a cycle)

[Irreverend Hugh, KSC]

call me delusional or straight nuts
but
i dont subscribe to 'the big 3' anymore

That doesn't matter. They still happen to you anyway.

just because there may be a path
that does not mean that it APPEARS the same way all the time

you can see this when taking a look at the study of 'history'
the historical PROCESS has some importance
but
the CONTENTS of history - names / faces / dates - have virtually no significance (nor can they even be agreed upon)

Actually, how much of that is simply enabling a pretty lie and how much of it can lead somewhere insightful? While I understand your idea about history and agree with it, those names and faces take meaning simply for those connected with them. The contents of history are what define it and give it meaning, otherwise there is no process. "Process" is still just a concept as any other concept and all concepts and concoctions disintegrate into other conditions, concepts, and concoctions.

you have to bring all the worn out theories to the surface before you can flush them
just like getting rid of an ILLNESS

Nah. Sometimes they can get burned up quickly.

[LHX]

call me delusional or straight nuts
but
i dont subscribe to 'the big 3' anymore

That doesn't matter. They still happen to you anyway.

this is the thing i am still not convinced of anymore

just because there may be a path
that does not mean that it APPEARS the same way all the time

you can see this when taking a look at the study of 'history'
the historical PROCESS has some importance
but
the CONTENTS of history - names / faces / dates - have virtually no significance (nor can they even be agreed upon)

Actually, how much of that is simply enabling a pretty lie and how much of it can lead somewhere insightful? While I understand your idea about history and agree with it, those names and faces take meaning simply for those connected with them. The contents of history are what define it and give it meaning, otherwise there is no process. "Process" is still just a concept as any other concept and all concepts and concoctions disintegrate into other conditions, concepts, and concoctions.

ever since somebody recorded 'history' incorrectly
whether on purpose or not
'recorded history' has become nothing more than a really intense story

the PROCESS
seems to be what is inevitable

namely
the fact that communication has developed to the point that you and i will prolly never meet
but
the irreverend has impacted the way i approach what i do

the contents of history have nothing (or very little) to do with the fact that communication has reached the point that it is at right now

thats my hunch right now at least

you have to bring all the worn out theories to the surface before you can flush them
just like getting rid of an ILLNESS

Nah. Sometimes they can get burned up quickly.

this seems to be a pretty damn good point

[LMNO]

If there is an eternal pattern, i don't see it.

I see eddys in the eternal chaos, and I see people work hard to create negative entropy, but I don't see an eternal pattern.

i hate to say it man
but
that looks an awful lot like a fragment of a pattern from where i am sitting

actually
depending on what you mean when you say 'negative entropy'
it could look almost exactly like a pattern

You gotta give me more to work with.

I see many little patterns emerge from chaos, and go back to chaos.  I see people trying to put things in an order that makes sense to them, and struggle to keep them that way.

But no great order.  Only chaos.

[Irreverend Hugh, KSC]

I have seen people burn out old theories in moments just by using "medication," not that I would say that would be the best way, but it can work for some.

[LHX]

If there is an eternal pattern, i don't see it.

I see eddys in the eternal chaos, and I see people work hard to create negative entropy, but I don't see an eternal pattern.

i hate to say it man
but
that looks an awful lot like a fragment of a pattern from where i am sitting

actually
depending on what you mean when you say 'negative entropy'
it could look almost exactly like a pattern

You gotta give me more to work with.

I see many little patterns emerge from chaos, and go back to chaos.  I see people trying to put things in an order that makes sense to them, and struggle to keep them that way.

But no great order.  Only chaos.

chaos
something emerges from chaos
something is able to observe chaos
something is able to create something in chaos
something has emerged from chaos

next step would be to get that 'something' to be able to observe the chaos
and
to learn to create

does that seem like order?

[Irreverend Hugh, KSC]

Perhaps some of Bohm's ideas will work here. His implicate and explicate orders and all that.

[LHX]

i always come out of these discussions feeling better about things

i love you motherfuckers