B.ella's Magical Mystery Thread

[Cain]

Hmm, sounds interesting.  I may do some reading on that.

[Irreverend Hugh, KSC]

Hmm, sounds interesting.  I may do some reading on that.

I think some of the ideas are discusssed on various chaos magic sites, but you would do better to find Phil Hine's website where you can download PDF books for free. (Another writer who can explain this better than I can is Patrick Dunn who wrote "Post Modern Magic" which is probably the only book any one ever need read nowadays.)

[hooplala]

So, would you consider E-Prime a form of magic, since its intention is to alter how people think about things?

[LMNO]

It also resonates with the ancient "naming stories", and with the legends of the Celtic Poets/Bards.

[Irreverend Hugh, KSC]

So, would you consider E-Prime a form of magic, since its intention is to alter how people think about things?

No. I think of E prime as more of a mental exercise. It could get you to probably be better at magic if you're into the whole semantics idea that we are limited by our choice of language. But I don't like semantics because the theory disregards evidence of other types of cognitive functioning.

E prime can only alter the way you use language to think about things, and thus may alter some ways you think about certain things. But E prime probably will not lead to any significant changes in thinking or feeling unless you had other sorts of training.

[hooplala]

I seem to recall Crowley saying something about Hitler being a supreme magician in his opinion because of how he manipulated the ideas of the people.

What's your opinion of that?

I'll try to hunt down a source.

[LMNO]

Hugh does have a point, in that the use of e-prime can become just another vocal tic, much like the use of pejoritives to indicate displeasure: saying "gay" "lame" "retarded" "sucks" etc doesn't automatically mean that the person saying it is thinking about what they are saying, or that the mean "homosexual," "crippled", "mentally handicapped" or "fellatio".

In the same way, substituting "it seems to me" for "it is" doesn't automatically mean that the person isn't thinking in a non-Aristotelian way.  

E-Prime only seems to help thought when the one using it is actually thinking about their words.

[hooplala]

I agree.

[Irreverend Hugh, KSC]

I seem to recall Crowley saying something about Hitler being a supreme magician in his opinion because of how he manipulated the ideas of the people.

What's your opinion of that?

I'll try to hunt down a source.

I don't know about that quote. However just because Crowley said it means nothing. The idea of Hitler being a magician can be analyzed by the simple criterion: Did he practice magic and was that part of or all of his development?

[hooplala]

I'm not putting stock into it because Crowley said it, just bringing it up.  And my impression was that he didn't believe Hitler was practicing magic, just that what Hitler was doing to the minds of the people of Germany was, according to Crowley, magic.

Your interpretation seemed along a similar line of thought, so I was wondering if you agreed or not.

Does Hitler not being a practicing magician make a difference?  Can people perform magic without realizing it?

[hooplala]

I've been looking for a source for the Crowley comment and can't find it . . . i will check my notes tonight when I get home but its possible I dreamt the quote.

At any rate, my questions stand as they are . . . I'm still curious for your opinion.

[Irreverend Hugh, KSC]

I'm not putting stock into it because Crowley said it, just bringing it up.  And my impression was that he didn't believe Hitler was practicing magic, just that what Hitler was doing to the minds of the people of Germany was, according to Crowley, magic.

Your interpretation seemed along a similar line of thought, so I was wondering if you agreed or not.

Does Hitler not being a practicing magician make a difference?  Can people perform magic without realizing it?

Now, he certainly could be considered a magician because he was able to turn his ideas to reality using words. But he also used state-power to do things. I do think that people practice and are manipulated by magic all the time and never know it.

So hitler could be considered a magician, but his role seems more to the side of a dictator.

[Enrico Salazar]

So hitler could be considered a magician, but his role seems more to the side of a dictator.

As if there is difference.

So cute.

[LHX]

this forum has shown that is nearly impossible to say that one thing is 'magic' and another thing isnt

intent seem to be the only area of difference

[Irreverend Hugh, KSC]

So hitler could be considered a magician, but his role seems more to the side of a dictator.

As if there is difference.

So cute.

Actually some occult theorists and other weird sorts say that there is no difference. Some chaos magicians also concur with the idea that society in this day and age is a grand manipulation of our desires by images, which is a sort of magic using "sigils."

I was merely keeping to common categories.