Rant 154: The Pretty Noose

[Irreverend Hugh, KSC]

Don't even fucking ask me how much or how hard it was to just get this fucking text file to show up to post here. Just read it. Tonight was fucking wierd. I think I will avoid the internet for several thousand years now. It's been a long night after a long week after a long....you know that shit.

Rant 154
The Pretty Noose

"Theories are like patches on a coat, one day they just wear off."-Tibetan saying

"You chuckle from inside as you see the facade of samsara and nirvana; [this] view will keep you constantly amused, with a little inner smile bubbling away all the time."
-Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche

"If you can't stand the thought of being limited by someone else's beliefs and ideas, why be confined to your own ideas and beliefs?"-from an earlier rant

Nihilism is as much an abdication of personal responsibility as essentialism. Both are the dull radiance of stupidity tricking you into the seemingly more comfortable idea that there is no such thing as free will. But this idea is only an ancient superstition repackaged in a more scientific wrapper for today's supposedly more sophisticated public. You can deny free will, even as you deny that you have chosen to think this way. Then what are the causes of you being here at this moment, reading this? Destiny? Fate? Fortune? (Certainly not karma, since most people who evoke karma have little understanding of the concept.) No. Those terms sound too religious or superstitious. So you prefer to think of your abdication of responsibility as something else like social currents buffeting you along, or as upbringing, or as biological expressions, or as some combination of these things. But your supposedly materialist terminology doesn't mask the old superstition which excuses your behavior. After all of this, you may finally realize that no one could really care on a day to day level about the free will / not free will argument, since it has about as much relevance as discussions of angels dancing on pin heads. It is clear, when one's head is not full of the bull shit of philosophy, that on a day to day and realistic level you have a certain degree of choice which is reflected in certain conditions of your life. That said, drop this philosophical speculation about free will like a bad habit. It only leads to stupidity.

What is the truth or truths as you know them? Are you willing to let such truths take over your life or excuse you to do evil things to others? Do you let such truths delude you into thinking you are better or worse than others? Do these truths become stories you tell yourself in an effort to cobble together some identity fiction that will finally be recognized by others? Why should you even care? Do you let these truths become foundations of bullshit that you hide behind in your attempts to make the universe do what you want?

The problem is not that you lack freedom. You have ample opportunities to exercise that freedom. The problem is that you believe that in order to be free you must get everything you want, eradicate everything you dislike, while ignoring the fact that the universe and everything else out there adds up to so much more than you. Instead of seeing this as it is, you try to hide behind extremes of either "determination" or "free will." But both of these extremes are merely false choices. They are simply more jewels on the pretty noose of attachment which is strangling you from seeing things as they are. When was the last time you asked yourself "what in the hell is really going on?" and when was the last time you asked that question and actually didn't deny the answer?

I can help, but my truths are only relevant for this lifespan I habitually call mine, and then only for the situation I am currently in. In a contingent and endlessly shifting reality, having a truth that claims to have figured out all the answers to anything for all time is simply capitulation to delusional stupidity, no matter how consoling or attractively dazzling such a truth may seem. Remember the old Discordian adage "It is my firm belief that I must hold no firm beliefs." Some of the insights about our human psychology that I rant on about have been suggested to me by people trying to live in freedom from bullshit, so I try to share them, but even they are not truths to cling to. They are simply the responses I have found for dealing with the bullshit in and around me. Some of you may find them useful. (Otherwise go read some other rant I have written. I have written so many, I am sure that your burning issue has been dealt with at some point.)

Despite all that, it is fanatical to assume that reality has or does not have any meaning. Don't be so dumb. We are the sort of beings who inhabit a reality in which it makes sense for our minds to try to make sense of reality. That is simply because we are linguistic beings. Meaning is wrapped up in the semiotic web that has been instilled in us from our primal language instinct. Reality is neither meaningful nor meaningless from any philosophical standpoint. It is simply what it is. And it can be changed. So if you feel it is meaningless than the onus is on you to make it meaningful. That is your birthright after all. So enough of this pretty noose of abstractions talking about nihilism or essentialism. Those are simply terms that we get caught up in and bewitched by. The joke is on us and we are the jokers!

-Irreverend Hugh, KSC, DSSS/PMM Co-conspirator
January 31st, O??mealg, 2006

[LMNO]

As usual, nice rant.


Another one of the pithy phrases people tend to forget is that of the Agnostic, "I don't know."  Not enough people are comfortable in using this phrase with no fear or self-deprecation, and certainly without a sense of finality.

It's "I don't know, but I want to keep trying to find out," not "I don't know, so why bother?"

[LHX]

It's "I don't know, but I want to keep trying to find out," not "I don't know, so why bother?"

powerful

[hooplala]

As usual, nice rant.


Another one of the pithy phrases people tend to forget is that of the Agnostic, "I don't know."  Not enough people are comfortable in using this phrase with no fear or self-deprecation, and certainly without a sense of finality.

It's "I don't know, but I want to keep trying to find out," not "I don't know, so why bother?"

This is very very true.

[Dags]

Keeping it short.

Nihilism is a paradoxial philosophy; the best thing I think nihilism has going for it is a sort of launchpad to something else. Deconstruct all your beliefs and values; then start over.

Welcome to a void that is greater than your own.

Fatalism is the belief that irregardless nothing can be changed; it's "determinism gone wild" not determinism.

For the freedom thing in regards to free will I think I've found a resolution. Self-determination. If you've got it then you got it. If not then maybe theirs a "training program" available.-heh

I still don't know what "free-will" is supposed to be? Here's the problems I got with it.

Problem 1.

Free-will; A person takes a vacation day instead of working on friday. (what actually happened) In their mind they reason that they could have went to work instead of taking that day.(actually no they couldn't do either it was one or the other but not both) Maybe it's a semantical hobgoblin? But they actually determined to take friday off or It was determined for them by something other than themselves.

The problem here is that the past is "set" it cannot actually be changed. Free-will concludes that the past could've been different? Determinism leads to the conclusion that after what actually happens happens then that is it.

Problem 2.

Also to me it seems a belief that "free-will" is true is more compatable from believers sense of guilt in regards to there friends, loved ones burning in hell ; because at anytime " They are free to choose to believe in God(tm)" thereby not suffering hell.

A person cannot choose to believe whatever at any old time without  cause to do so. This is covered well by William James essay The Will To Believe. It can be found many places on the net here's one such place that includes additional commentary on it.

http://ajburger.homestead.com/files/book.htm

Problem 3.

Those claiming "free-will" is true also claim that if determinism is true then people aren't responsible for what they do. " Since they have no choice "

These folks are neglecting the fact that they are the only person that is "them". If it's not you that carves up Professor Plum in the Library, then who is the one doing it? No one else but you. So your responsible even if it means serving twenty years in a federal pound you in the ass prison. That's just how it is.

Expecting me to say something of course I would. Phiosophy is as much a hobby to me as people making vagina or dick shaped pottery is a hobby to them. I enjoy it just as much as they do. So why not?

What might be right for me, may not be right for some. I am still to meet anyone that gives a fuck about philosophy in my day to day but elements of it pervade all things human - you mention psychology - it comes from philosophy - but anyways; I'm a blue collar worker for life. So it's rare to find a "Wilson" like that guy from "Tool Time" to shoot the shit with while I'm working with them. But it's a fucking hobby just the same to do it on my off hours.

So freedom regarding my solution to the problem of freedom from the perspective of determism can easily be summed up.

Freedom is for those determined enough to have it.

Whatever freedom is? That is? As far as truth goes it really depends doesn't it. To me free-will is stupidity and ignorance.  It's for the dolts of the world to think so. It's for the trent reznor to say "don't you fucking know what you are" and I say this without my intentions being sadistic or rude. It's unethical to manipulate people with ad hominems, but from a certain perspective all those things seem to honestly apply? It's how I feel and the way I see it and I don't think I'm exaggerating to say that I'd be pressed to say that any more than 10% of the worlds population would agree, since isn't it about 90% that believe in some sort of all-knowing God? And of those that don't believe in God fewer than that probably think determinism is true, so to all of those people I am fucking retarded! So what?

and......

That's why I agree with determinism as the correct mark twain.

- Dags

[LMNO]

The problem here is that the past is "set" it cannot actually be changed. Free-will concludes that the past could've been different? Determinism leads to the conclusion that after what actually happens happens then that is it.

Maybe it's your writing style, but I have no idea how you came to that conclusion.

As far as I understand it, Free Will means that your actions in the future, the choices you make, are up to you, and you alone.  Your path through life was not already in place before you were born.  The universe is not unfolding according to some great Plan as determined by some Intelligent Force (or Unintelligent Mechanism).

Going up a meta-level, i have a hypothetical: since we only view time in one direction, if the past did change, the present would also change, and we in the present would have no idea the past was changed, for we would have no memory of it (Cf: The Butterfly Effect, and many more clever sci-fi stories I can't think of right now).  So, there is no way to prove that past doesn't change, save for Occam's Razor.

Still, I want to know how you concluded that the act of freely choosing your actions leads to alteration of the past.  Could you be more clear on that?

[Cain]

I thought he meant the past could have been different because of the actions of people in the past, myself.

[LMNO]

Why does that sound like a meaningless statement, akin to "we could see in the infrared spectrum if our eyes were made differently"?

[Dags]

The problem here is that the past is "set" it cannot actually be changed. Free-will concludes that the past could've been different? Determinism leads to the conclusion that after what actually happens happens then that is it.

Maybe it's your writing style, but I have no idea how you came to that conclusion.

That the past doesn't change seems a basic truth to me.

As far as I understand it, Free Will means that your actions in the future, the choices you make, are up to you, and you alone.  Your path through life was not already in place before you were born.  The universe is not unfolding according to some great Plan as determined by some Intelligent Force (or Unintelligent Mechanism).

I would disagree. Not that all I'd agree with would be some opposite of everything your saying, just that this doesn't sound correct to me.

It almost sounds like believing that everything in the world has no effect on what a person does or doesn't do? If not for the "mechanism" then what?

Going up a meta-level, i have a hypothetical: since we only view time in one direction, if the past did change, the present would also change, and we in the present would have no idea the past was changed, for we would have no memory of it (Cf: The Butterfly Effect, and many more clever sci-fi stories I can't think of right now).  So, there is no way to prove that past doesn't change, save for Occam's Razor.

Would the present change if the past could be changed? I had a good thought written down about something similiar to this; here's the basic problem I have with the past changing.

The present moment is the only time we actually do anything.
Our concept of time is relevant; not concrete.

Think of the time you have lived as existing on a recording similiar to a VCR tape. Except in reality if you could rewind to some time say 10 years ago you would be absent and all other things would too because they are not left back in time they are in the present.

What does time require. Movement through space, we are moving right now about 64,000 miles per hour through our solar system. Where were you 10 years ago? Think your still there......

Maybe completely confusing, utterly dissapointing or somewhere in between. I think a good way of knowing the past doesn't change is to realize that it isn't there anymore.... just like the future is soon the past... and all any event can occur in is the present moment.

Still, I want to know how you concluded that the act of freely choosing your actions leads to alteration of the past.  Could you be more clear on that?

Let's call this free will simplified - ,Äúthe ability to do or not do something,Äù

I'm saying given two seemingly equally but different options to choose from in a way that only one or the other can occur. Like my example of taking friday off of work.

You can't do both. So it's one or the other. To say either or the other can be done would require time splitting off in two different directions one being where you went to work the other where you took the day off.

Like I said maybe it's just a semantical hobgoblin. But whether or not you do one or the other I think it's more likely that it's determined; you might say it's a choice. Yada Yada, maybe it doesn't really matter.-heh But, something I've been looking at makes "me" think it does matter because I think whether someone does one or the other is determined.

hmm..... here's something to consider....

Know what determines the future and you can change it or just keep on thinking that all things happen without even the slightest cause. The choice is up to you!

Sounds sparky doesn't it? Lights the flames of inquiry.-heh Anyways yeah I think from what I've gathered the whole debate free will and whatever else folks argue against it has been going on for 2 millenia at least, so best to keep that in mind while philosophizing about it. Thanks for asking maybe I explained something but explaining doesn't seem like something I'm determined enough to learn how to do it well at this time or I would've already. Plus the topic isn't a simple one. How to make chocolate chip cookies first you need a working universe.... You know? Anyways thanks for it I'm glad we met.

- Dags

note: this below was leftovers from where I was writing editing this reply.... I'll just leave it be then.


So in regards to the past changing; is a reflection that things could've turned out differently; yet if they could've then why didn't they; because it'd mean that given this or that day and time there was only one choice to be made; the one that was actually made; or the thing that actually happened.

[Dags]

I thought he meant the past could have been different because of the actions of people in the past, myself.

No he meant the actions of the people in the past are in the past and that's it. Anything in the past is a done deal. Think about the future. Think about the past. He's basically saying it's always now.

- Dags

[Cain]

I thought he meant the past could have been different because of the actions of people in the past, myself.

No he meant the actions of the people in the past are in the past and that's it. Anything in the past is a done deal. Think about the future. Think about the past. He's basically saying it's always now.

- Dags

Ah right.  I had wondered why it was raised, but the previous post seems to have answered it for me.

[Dags]

I thought he meant the past could have been different because of the actions of people in the past, myself.

No he meant the actions of the people in the past are in the past and that's it. Anything in the past is a done deal. Think about the future. Think about the past. He's basically saying it's always now.

- Dags

Ah right.  I had wondered why it was raised, but the previous post seems to have answered it for me.

Thanks. I aim to work on making more sense with this. But as far as this explaining thing goes it hasn't been easy yet.

Actually If It was simple I probably wouldn't bother with it.

That which is important we can never know for sure, and that which we know for sure isn't really important - Albert Camus

I couldn't not quote that or I wouldn't have. To say otherwise means I could not have quoted it. Actually I did so it's false to say I could have not done that. Whether I came back and edited it out I still made that choice, the choice to undo it would be another choice. Free-will is sort of like saying without an additional action the quote would disappear. I don't believe this is the way things work, nor would I say with confidence that most other rational people would. Therefore I wouldn't think superstition was involved nor believe God or demons removed the quote. But someone with the ability to do so took it away. This is scientific thinking vs. superstitious thinking. The actual verses the superstition that it could have been different just the same?

But hey! It all depends. That's what determinism is in a nutshell.

- Dags

[Shibboleet The Annihilator]

soundgarden

[Irreverend Hugh, KSC]

Dags, the past doesn't change, but that says nothing about free will. The past doesn't exist. All we have are memories and circumstantial evidence.

[Irreverend Hugh, KSC]

soundgarden

This is correct. It was the song I was listening too when the rant came out. It only remotely deals with what the song was saying.