Epistle to the Nay-sayers

[Cain]

Note: I originally wrote this in response/agreement to TGRR's Sermon 36, but I felt a reply of this size should probably get its own thread, as well as explain my position on the matter.

Well, you already know my thoughts on this. I'm a goddamn Episkopos, which means I don't have to anything that Mal-2 or Lord Omar or Ho Chi Zen or Mordecai Malingnatus think I should. I find it interesting that throwing out different ideas and ways of thinking have been recieved so harshly in certain areas of the Discordian Movement. I thought one of the main things about chaos was change? If that doesn't make me "Discordian" enough, then fuck it. I'll call myself a Nihilist with a twisted sense of humour, if it makes you people feel better. I'd hate for people so insecure in their beliefs to be dissauded by me.

Like Roger said, its Springtime in Munich, take two. I feel the ground shifting under my feet on a daily basis. The fascists are getting their third run at things (Cold War, remember?) and third time may well be the charm. The morons are coming out of the woodwork....I actually spoke to someone with a decent University education the other day advocating forced sterilization for the population at large, with permits from the Government needed for reproduction. He's a lunatic fringe compared to most of them, but even he got a half decent reception. The usual idiots of "more government, stronger government, harsher government" are the driving force. Our leaders don't believe in democracy. The spirit of 1789 is dying and will soon be dead.

My girlfriend came on side because of reasons like this. She is half French and she has told me about her grandparents stories of World War Two. You want to know why France fell so quickly? Because they couldn't recognize a common enemy, that they considered the others a greater threat to France than the looming army on the horizon. They were more willing, when it came to their differences, to fight each other than simply agree to disagree and then try to solve the problem anyway. I'm not saying there should be consensus, in fact I am personally against that. I'm just for recognizing the obvious threat, which isn't other Discordians.

You wanna know why not many people get us? This is part of it. Violette was interested in the way I explained it, she understands it. But she looked here, at PD.com and EB&G and changed her mind. She's convinced Discordians cannot see their enemies for what they are and I have to say I don't totally disagree with that sentiment. They may not have named us, but we come under the majority of the "shoot them and dump the bodies in the woods" catergory, should the bad case scernario happen.  You don't even wanna know what happens under the worst case.

Again, no-one is forcing this on anyone else. If you don't wanna join in, fine. Great. Go do something else, whatever it is you want to do. Stop trying to lay your trip on us while claiming we are doing what is actually being done to us. All I have done is try to refine it and improve some of our current thinking in regards to Operation MindFuck. But, apparently, effectiveness, or indeed action of any sort, even the idea of it, is some kind of mortal sin. Sure, I've read the books. I know the more you try to change something the more you fall into the trap you want to destroy. You think I'm really that dumb? I know about the Greyface on the inside as well as the outside...the voice of caution, of order, of hierarchy. Just because I don't talk about it endlessly doesn't mean I havent acknowledged it. I don't talk about paleontology much either, but I can assure you I know enough on that topic to fill a small scientific journal.

A free man is the ultimate weapon. That philosopher of violent power, Machiavelli, knew as much. A Prince is never safe if a man is willing to throw away his life, if he is free. Non serviam. So lets start letting people know they are free. Because otherwise they are going to get dragged down by the majority and they wont be able to concieve of freedom, because it will be carefully partioned and kept away, to be bought out when its needed and banished when it isn't. Thats all I have to say for now, really. I could continue, but this is already at rant length and my message will lose focus.

[All Rights Reserved]

If you believe fascists are idiots then you are a fascist.

oh, and nice rant.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

If you believe fascists are idiots then you are a fascist.

Rubbish.  By that standard, Lord Acton and Benjamin Franklin were goose-stepping Nazis.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I actually spoke to someone with a decent University education the other day advocating forced sterilization for the population at large, with permits from the Government needed for reproduction.

Naturally, the asstard is convinced that he'll be one of the people that gets a permit.

People who attack their own rights are funny.  Sometimes I laugh until I can't stop screaming.

[Demonica, Oracle of Doom]

You wanna know why not many people get us?

Idiots.

I'm voting for Pedro.

[Sweety]

Our leaders don't believe in democracy. The spirit of 1789 is dying and will soon be dead.

One should hope so since over a third of France's population was brutally murdered or guillotined (in the name of libert?© egalit?© fraternit?©) in that revolution- and Im not talking about the few nobles (many of them had money and could flee anyway)- maybe it is this very spirit of hypocritical modern pseudo democracy that psychologically inveigles the people and provide the politicians with tools of deception. One askes oneself "What makes the French still celebarte this Revolution"? (whats the propaganda behind it- or is it simply the historical varnish that has covered up everything in bliss)

- the French army couldnt stop the Germans cause their technical equipment (tanks) was dated and their strategy was still the one applicable to trench warfare (cf. the Maginon-Line); the Germans first invaded Holland and Belgium quickly with light motorised forces and commandos of parachute-soldiers (somthing completely new then), then in a swift pincher movement overtook most concentrated french forces from behind and basically crushed them- the captiol was wide open and surrendered to the Germans...

maybe use another picture my friend, like the one of the Japanese feudal Lord and his sons: he gave each of them one arrow and told them to break it which they easily could. then he gave them three each and told them to break them- this wasnt possible anymore. He said: if you only fight for yourselves, you may easily loose, but if you unite your forces, then nothing can stop you!

My best regards, S.

[Shibboleet The Annihilator]

Note: I originally wrote this in response/agreement to TGRR's Sermon 36, but I felt a reply of this size should probably get its own thread, as well as explain my position on the matter.

Well, you already know my thoughts on this. I'm a goddamn Episkopos, which means I don't have to anything that Mal-2 or Lord Omar or Ho Chi Zen or Mordecai Malingnatus think I should. I find it interesting that throwing out different ideas and ways of thinking have been recieved so harshly in certain areas of the Discordian Movement. I thought one of the main things about chaos was change? If that doesn't make me "Discordian" enough, then fuck it. I'll call myself a Nihilist with a twisted sense of humour, if it makes you people feel better. I'd hate for people so insecure in their beliefs to be dissauded by me.

Like Roger said, its Springtime in Munich, take two. I feel the ground shifting under my feet on a daily basis. The fascists are getting their third run at things (Cold War, remember?) and third time may well be the charm. The morons are coming out of the woodwork....I actually spoke to someone with a decent University education the other day advocating forced sterilization for the population at large, with permits from the Government needed for reproduction. He's a lunatic fringe compared to most of them, but even he got a half decent reception. The usual idiots of "more government, stronger government, harsher government" are the driving force. Our leaders don't believe in democracy. The spirit of 1789 is dying and will soon be dead.

My girlfriend came on side because of reasons like this. She is half French and she has told me about her grandparents stories of World War Two. You want to know why France fell so quickly? Because they couldn't recognize a common enemy, that they considered the others a greater threat to France than the looming army on the horizon. They were more willing, when it came to their differences, to fight each other than simply agree to disagree and then try to solve the problem anyway. I'm not saying there should be consensus, in fact I am personally against that. I'm just for recognizing the obvious threat, which isn't other Discordians.

You wanna know why not many people get us? This is part of it. Violette was interested in the way I explained it, she understands it. But she looked here, at PD.com and EB&G and changed her mind. She's convinced Discordians cannot see their enemies for what they are and I have to say I don't totally disagree with that sentiment. They may not have named us, but we come under the majority of the "shoot them and dump the bodies in the woods" catergory, should the bad case scernario happen.  You don't even wanna know what happens under the worst case.

Again, no-one is forcing this on anyone else. If you don't wanna join in, fine. Great. Go do something else, whatever it is you want to do. Stop trying to lay your trip on us while claiming we are doing what is actually being done to us. All I have done is try to refine it and improve some of our current thinking in regards to Operation MindFuck. But, apparently, effectiveness, or indeed action of any sort, even the idea of it, is some kind of mortal sin. Sure, I've read the books. I know the more you try to change something the more you fall into the trap you want to destroy. You think I'm really that dumb? I know about the Greyface on the inside as well as the outside...the voice of caution, of order, of hierarchy. Just because I don't talk about it endlessly doesn't mean I havent acknowledged it. I don't talk about paleontology much either, but I can assure you I know enough on that topic to fill a small scientific journal.

A free man is the ultimate weapon. That philosopher of violent power, Machiavelli, knew as much. A Prince is never safe if a man is willing to throw away his life, if he is free. Non serviam. So lets start letting people know they are free. Because otherwise they are going to get dragged down by the majority and they wont be able to concieve of freedom, because it will be carefully partioned and kept away, to be bought out when its needed and banished when it isn't. Thats all I have to say for now, really. I could continue, but this is already at rant length and my message will lose focus.

[Cain]

Our leaders don't believe in democracy. The spirit of 1789 is dying and will soon be dead.

One should hope so since over a third of France's population was brutally murdered or guillotined (in the name of libert?© egalit?© fraternit?©) in that revolution- and Im not talking about the few nobles (many of them had money and could flee anyway)- maybe it is this very spirit of hypocritical modern pseudo democracy that psychologically inveigles the people and provide the politicians with tools of deception. One askes oneself "What makes the French still celebarte this Revolution"? (whats the propaganda behind it- or is it simply the historical varnish that has covered up everything in bliss)

- the French army couldnt stop the Germans cause their technical equipment (tanks) was dated and their strategy was still the one applicable to trench warfare (cf. the Maginon-Line); the Germans first invaded Holland and Belgium quickly with light motorised forces and commandos of parachute-soldiers (somthing completely new then), then in a swift pincher movement overtook most concentrated french forces from behind and basically crushed them- the captiol was wide open and surrendered to the Germans...

maybe use another picture my friend, like the one of the Japanese feudal Lord and his sons: he gave each of them one arrow and told them to break it which they easily could. then he gave them three each and told them to break them- this wasnt possible anymore. He said: if you only fight for yourselves, you may easily loose, but if you unite your forces, then nothing can stop you!

My best regards, S.

Nice history lesson.  And here comes the counter:

1. And maybe if the French weren't so convinced other French were the enemy, they may have stuck around and fought the Germans some more.  But because they saw the "liberals" or the landed upper classes as the enemy, they struck deals with the Germans to attack each other while they all got brutally ass-raped by the Nazi war-machine.

The spirit of 1789 is not just the Revolution, but the culmination of the Enlightenment, of the work of Locke, Bentham, Kant and others who imagined a world where divine right of rulership was not an acceptable theory and where basic human rights and democracy were the defence against abuses of elites, racism, sexism and sectarian violence.
But you seem to have advocated class systems in other threads, so I suspect you'd like that.

Oh, and the examples were there to show the meaning behind the statements, not a dotted history of politics and war.  I've already said I use those examples because I am familiar with them, not because I believe they are the same as the current situation.  If you can't take what I am saying and look at it contextually, I may as well give up now.

[Cain]

I actually spoke to someone with a decent University education the other day advocating forced sterilization for the population at large, with permits from the Government needed for reproduction.

Naturally, the asstard is convinced that he'll be one of the people that gets a permit.

People who attack their own rights are funny.  Sometimes I laugh until I can't stop screaming.

Of course he did.  Thats what makes it so amusing.  Its like people who advocate aristorocracy or autocracy, because they naturally assume they will be at the top, instead of breaking their back in a factory somewhere, or being dumped in a shallow grave.

[Sweety]

You're right of course. What you wrote was conclusive in context of a sermon/preaching and political agitation. It deals in "what if"s: what IF the French stuck together, what if Alexander (the Great) hadnt died, what IF  etcetc..I myself am not interested in this stuff right now, for me "learning from history" is looking at the (supposed) facts- and then at their truth/falseness and distortion by those in power. Fantasy is also good but esp when its more independant (else it reminds one of things like the Da Vinci Code etc.) So just consider my examples as additional info or stories...

About democracy: please consider these things: 1) not everyone who isnt for democracy is necessarily for murder, sexism etc...2) democracy is a very multi-layered expression: Im with you when its used in its sense of 1789 (but I merely asked myself: how long was it that "pure" even then, till the terror set in), democracy today is often used as a mere phrase used by power players&politicians for their own ends one taht should make one feel all nice and well-cared for: mainly it has become an empty husk. It is also an instrument of Western pseudo-colonial imperialism. Still there are more meanings like the Athenian/historical one: please consider that even antique democracy was only directed at citizens of Athens- and thereby it was in fact an oligrachy- since only about 5-6% of the people living there fulfilled this criteria: the majority couldnt "vote" and participate (women, slaves, traders, met??kes (=foreigners living in Athens)): mind that this whole system was still called democracy.

...anyway, again this is merely additional info AFAIK...(cause, frankly, Im not interested in politics.)

Wish you all the best, S.

[East Coast Hustle]

blah blah blah...frankly, Im not interested in politics.

good.

there's a nice sunny spot reserved for you on the wall.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

.(cause, frankly, Im not interested in politics.)

Yeah, you seem like the type.