Principia Discordia

Quote from: CloserToGodThe Black Iron Prison is an idea that I have come across on a website that touts the Principia Discordia and the Illuminatus trilogy books.

The idea as it was explained to me is that in life you are trapped in a prison cell, it is dark and it is inescapable but you cannot see the walls that surround you. As an unwilling convict of this invisible penitentiary, you are in a position of pain and suffering and you have no way to break free until someone points out and makes you understand that you are in a prison.

Once you understand that you are being held against your will, you may start to break down the bars of your jail window, it is a revalation, and a means of evading capture. however, your initial rapture of becoming a free man is short lived, as you will find that there is a cell outside of the cell in which you had been incarserated. While the walls of the first prison are now crumbled, there is another larger wall encasing the captive and another set of bars holding back the freedom which is sought.

What I have found is that this analogy is a an unenlightened one, for it tells of failure to achieve enlightenment, and you had better not try again. It touts freedom but does not deliver. It is no truth bringer or real enlightenment, and is instead a masturbatory thought process that leads in a circle, and this ends in conformity, and bondage.

Breaking down walls is a good thing, but to find that behind every wall is another, is an idea that breads contempt, inadeqacy, and selfish behaviour, it is an idea that is a trick.

I have broken free of the BIP and I find that it is actually a lonely place, it is not populated with individuals, but it does not have any further walls and is not devoid of life. It is a free place that is to be explored and learnt from.

 

Quote from: CloserToGodThe Black Iron Prison is an idea that I have come across on a website that touts the Principia Discordia and the Illuminatus trilogy books.

The idea as it was explained to me is that in life you are trapped in a prison cell, it is dark and it is inescapable but you cannot see the walls that surround you. As an unwilling convict of this invisible penitentiary, you are in a position of pain and suffering and you have no way to break free until someone points out and makes you understand that you are in a prison.

First of all, it should be understood that the BIP is a metaphor for the limitation sof human perception in relation to the myriad of different stimuli that exist in the Universe, and of the self-imposed barriers of conditioning that one needs to make their way through life.  You seem to be taking the imagery a tad too literally here.

QuoteOnce you understand that you are being held against your will, you may start to break down the bars of your jail window, it is a revalation, and a means of evading capture. however, your initial rapture of becoming a free man is short lived, as you will find that there is a cell outside of the cell in which you had been incarserated. While the walls of the first prison are now crumbled, there is another larger wall encasing the captive and another set of bars holding back the freedom which is sought.

Ok, this is totally wrong.¬† What,Äôs said is that even if you remove every barrier possible, the physical limitation of the human body and mind make it impossible to experience the entirety of the Universe.¬† In short, there will always be something you don,Äôt know; a human,Äôs perception of their experiential reality will always be imperfect; the error being in any ,ÄúOne Answer,Äù that tries to explain it all.

QuoteWhat I have found is that this analogy is a an unenlightened one, for it tells of failure to achieve enlightenment, and you had better not try again. It touts freedom but does not deliver. It is no truth bringer or real enlightenment, and is instead a masturbatory thought process that leads in a circle, and this ends in conformity, and bondage.

Nowhere do we say not to try.¬† Nowhere do we even speak of enlightenment.¬† The point of the BIP metaphor is that once you find some freedom, don,Äôt stop.¬† Find as much freedom as you can, because there is always more to do.¬† And, considering how our very ideas become bars in our prison, every ,Äúrevelation,Äù can become a trap, if you are not careful.

QuoteBreaking down walls is a good thing, but to find that behind every wall is another, is an idea that breads contempt, inadeqacy, and selfish behaviour, it is an idea that is a trick.

Only if you blindly believe that there is some mental state that explains everything, always and forever.¬† That blind faith is itself a prison, as it has never been attained, and never will be.¬† Far better to continue to strip scales from one,Äôs eyes, even if that process takes your entire life, and remains incomplete.

QuoteI have broken free of the BIP and I find that it is actually a lonely place, it is not populated with individuals, but it does not have any further walls and is not devoid of life. It is a free place that is to be explored and learnt from.

This paragraph alone makes it painfully clear that you have no understanding of what we are saying.¬† You obviously took a quick glance at the metaphor and it,Äôs symbolism, and came to a quick conclusion based upon your own biases, as opposed to the extensive dialogs that can be found here.

Rev. What's-His-Name's response:

Quote from: CloserToGodThe Black Iron Prison is an idea that I have come across on a website that touts the Principia Discordia and the Illuminatus trilogy books.

First off this is inaccurate.  I'd say we tear down the PD as much as we tout it.  And we hardly ever talk about the Illuminatus.

QuoteThe idea as it was explained to me is that in life you are trapped in a prison cell, it is dark and it is inescapable but you cannot see the walls that surround you. As an unwilling convict of this invisible penitentiary, you are in a position of pain and suffering and you have no way to break free until someone points out and makes you understand that you are in a prison.

This isn't even close.  And who was it from here that described the BIP in this manner?  My guess is no one.  Inescapable?  yes.  Dark?  for some maybe but it's not a universal.  Further, some can see the walls that surround them, that is, those who recognize how experiences and environments influence their evolution as a person in this world.  Those who recognize the forces that influence how they've grown and how they've acted in the past.  

Unwilling convict?  Well, by definition you are unwilling I suppose and if one were to accept the BIP as "dark" then perhaps this would be ominous, however again I would suggest this isn't the situation for all.  I would also put forth that the suggestion of "pain and suffering" is probably off.  There are many in a state of happy ignorant bliss who do not recognize the BIP, but yet, they still exist in one.  Perhaps the acceptance of it can lead some down a road where they allow themselves to suffer within it, but again, I would not say this to be the rule.  

QuoteOnce you understand that you are being held against your will, you may start to break down the bars of your jail window, it is a revalation, and a means of evading capture. however, your initial rapture of becoming a free man is short lived, as you will find that there is a cell outside of the cell in which you had been incarserated. While the walls of the first prison are now crumbled, there is another larger wall encasing the captive and another set of bars holding back the freedom which is sought.

this bit just doesn't make any sense.  First off, going with the premise if you are already captured how can you evade capture?  But beyond that logic faux pas, I think the author is missing some key ideas of the BIP, as some here believe.  "They lock is not a lock/the key is not a key"  
This means you are free to move from cell to cell.  It is not necessary to "destroy" a cell to escape to another one.  You can recognize the cell you are in, see the bars that make it up, and then look to see a hallway leading to other options, other cells with different bars.  You simply need to turn around and walk.  And, from time to time, we may wittingly or unwittingly return to our original cell.  Doors do not lock behind us, and they swing both ways.  I believe the author's visualization of the BIP is inaccurate and are coloring his writing.  

QuoteWhat I have found is that this analogy is a an unenlightened one, for it tells of failure to achieve enlightenment, and you had better not try again. It touts freedom but does not deliver. It is no truth bringer or real enlightenment, and is instead a masturbatory thought process that leads in a circle, and this ends in conformity, and bondage.

I call bullshit!  I think it is quite apparent #1 that while we tend to generally orbit similar ideas and theories, not all of our orbits are the same.  We overlap sometimes, but many times we do not.  There is an informal conformity here, I suppose, but not the straightjacket "bondage" type that the author is suggesting.  It is necessary to come together to some degree to publish and produce products, but if anyone actually read the BIP they could see, loud and clear, that there are many different voices with many different things to say.  

I would go on to suggest that the author finds this analogy to be unenlightened because, as demonstrated in the first parts of his writing, he just doesn't get it.  The author is focusing way too much on the "Black" of the BIP.  This is a Steven Jackson-esque focusing on the imagery and not the substance.  And if you start from there, you are imprisoning yourself to your own prejudices and preconceptions.  

We all here were, and still are, more than willing to discuss the ideas of the BIP with the author.  It was also suggested that the author do some honest homework on what has been written, by all of us.  From this description I find it very hard to believe that the author took more than a cursory skimming of the BIP pamphlet and related threads.  I invite the author to return, consider our rebuttals, and to discuss instead of hiding in his shelter of internet anonymity.  We are asshats, to be sure, but there is a sincere wish to understand how you came up with the way you view the BIP.  I think, as a matter of integrity to back up what you've written about us, that you owe us that much.  

QuoteI have broken free of the BIP and I find that it is actually a lonely place, it is not populated with individuals, but it does not have any further walls and is not devoid of life. It is a free place that is to be explored and learnt from.

Well, then by all means, drop us a line and let us know what it is like.  

QuoteThe Black Iron Prison is an idea that I have come across on a website that touts the Principia Discordia and the Illuminatus trilogy books.

Not strictly true, the site is named for the book, but many of us are actually bored with discussing it and have moved onto over areas on inquiry.  A small point, some may say pedantic, but important.

QuoteThe idea as it was explained to me is that in life you are trapped in a prison cell, it is dark and it is inescapable but you cannot see the walls that surround you. As an unwilling convict of this invisible penitentiary, you are in a position of pain and suffering and you have no way to break free until someone points out and makes you understand that you are in a prison.

Then you misunderstood the metaphor entirely.

The prison is indeed inescapable, but not necessarily dark.  That you equate it with pain and suffering, which were never originally mentioned, says a lot about both your preconceptions and metaphysics in approaching this.

Also, furthermore, the point is that you cannot escape.  The prison was a metaphor for your senses and how you understand the world.  You will never have perfect knowledge.  You will never be able to know, be 100% certain of what is the truth and be objective about existence.

QuoteOnce you understand that you are being held against your will, you may start to break down the bars of your jail window, it is a revalation, and a means of evading capture. however, your initial rapture of becoming a free man is short lived, as you will find that there is a cell outside of the cell in which you had been incarserated. While the walls of the first prison are now crumbled, there is another larger wall encasing the captive and another set of bars holding back the freedom which is sought.

How can you escape your senses?  Do you posit some sort of transcendent knowledge here, or are you merely misunderstanding what has been said?  I am unaware of any of the former and the latter seems more plausible.

QuoteWhat I have found is that this analogy is a an unenlightened one, for it tells of failure to achieve enlightenment, and you had better not try again. It touts freedom but does not deliver. It is no truth bringer or real enlightenment, and is instead a masturbatory thought process that leads in a circle, and this ends in conformity, and bondage.

Who spoke of ,Äúenlightenment,Äù? Apart from you, of course.  Enlightenment is not the point or the goal.  Understanding mental processes, limitations and perceptions are the goal here.  Enlightenment is a sham, a metaphysical construct for a perfection of knowledge that cannot exist in this Universe.

You already have freedom.  Freedom is gained through choice and choice is contingent on subjective perception and understanding.  If you do not like how you view the world, how your philosophy or ideology or chosen system works, you can change it.  You cannot ever be right, but you can improve and progress.  That you seek a definite goal and define freedom as the lack of external barriers (as opposed to the ability to chose) again shows flaws in your basic assumptions of what this is about.

How does this process end in conformity?  If anything, it expresses the creative urge of the individual and how they can empower themselves to change their environment.  That there is no perfection, no idealist Utopia at the end of the road, is an issue of your own perceptions about how the world should work.  Its very presumptuous and also quite volatile and reactionary, as previous Utopian and Positivist movements have shown.

QuoteBreaking down walls is a good thing, but to find that behind every wall is another, is an idea that breads contempt, inadeqacy, and selfish behaviour, it is an idea that is a trick.

How is that so?  Only if you are weak minded and fear challenges, it would seem.  Who is there to direct contempt against?  No-one is responsible for your position except yourself, there is no divine trickster here, you cannot blame your cell mates, for they have unwillingly been thrust into the same position as you.  Inadequacy implies goals that are not met, and there is no goal here.  Selfish behaviour, I cannot even see how that follows from what we have said.  To what end would selfishness be in any way beneficial?

QuoteI have broken free of the BIP and I find that it is actually a lonely place, it is not populated with individuals, but it does not have any further walls and is not devoid of life. It is a free place that is to be explored and learnt from.

You have not broken free of anything.  Your own philosophy drips from this tract and shows your own limitations in your thoughts and ideas.  To claim you have broken free of anything is highly unlikely.  A Nietzschean would easily detect the underlying Christian/Positivist philosophy in your writings and quite correctly bring you to account on it, at great length.  That you probably do not realize this says so much about the invisible bars that hem in your thinking.

There are individuals everywhere, Laz.  A planet of them, over 6 billion now.  Many try not to be, because they would have to face responsibility for their actions, the fear of there being no control or higher power to justify their actions.  But they still exist, try as they might to deny it. 

Quote from: CloserToGodI have broken free of the BIP and I find that it is actually a lonely place, it is not populated with individuals, but it does not have any further walls and is not devoid of life. It is a free place that is to be explored and learnt from.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

This is a dumbfuck statement. Allow me to explain.

This forum is not quite like many others you may encounter. Sure, it has it's similarities, they all do. The thing that sets it apart is that most of the people that join are not competing.
"I'm way more Discordian that him. He hasn't read (insert gay hippie book here)."
"I'm way more out of the prison than you. How? Whatever, I am."

These things shouldn't be found here. Unfortunatly we are used to running across elitist assholes nowadays, where the above statements are the norm. When our confused new friend stop in here, this is what he heard:
"YOU are stuck in a prison. WE are out. YOU are an inadequate person, but WE can show you the way. Read our cults illustrious rants and pay the leaders homage, and you will be shown the way."
He should have read:
"WE are stuck in a prison. NOONE is out. WE are stupid monkeys, but we band together to make this room a little less cold, and maybe thin some bars. Read our cults illustrious rant, and you will have something to do this weekend."

See? Together everyone is ignorant and blind, but we strive forward.  Stop trying to impress people. Won't you be our neighbor?

Hunter it's high time you wrote down a couple of decent length rant's. You're one of my favourite posters in this place but your posts are always just short quips. I demand you give us some diatribes, now. You owe it to your fans, you fuck!

hunter doesnt start threads

he just jacks 'em

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on February 05, 2007, 04:22:29 PM

Quote from: CloserToGodThe Black Iron Prison is an idea that I have come across on a website that touts the Principia Discordia and the Illuminatus trilogy books.

The idea as it was explained to me is that in life you are trapped in a prison cell, it is dark and it is inescapable but you cannot see the walls that surround you. As an unwilling convict of this invisible penitentiary, you are in a position of pain and suffering and you have no way to break free until someone points out and makes you understand that you are in a prison.

Once you understand that you are being held against your will, you may start to break down the bars of your jail window, it is a revalation, and a means of evading capture. however, your initial rapture of becoming a free man is short lived, as you will find that there is a cell outside of the cell in which you had been incarserated. While the walls of the first prison are now crumbled, there is another larger wall encasing the captive and another set of bars holding back the freedom which is sought.

What I have found is that this analogy is a an unenlightened one, for it tells of failure to achieve enlightenment, and you had better not try again. It touts freedom but does not deliver. It is no truth bringer or real enlightenment, and is instead a masturbatory thought process that leads in a circle, and this ends in conformity, and bondage.

Breaking down walls is a good thing, but to find that behind every wall is another, is an idea that breads contempt, inadeqacy, and selfish behaviour, it is an idea that is a trick.

I have broken free of the BIP and I find that it is actually a lonely place, it is not populated with individuals, but it does not have any further walls and is not devoid of life. It is a free place that is to be explored and learnt from.

The BIP is Grayface incarnate and a subforum about it on this forum is akin to sermonizing about the Devil in a church.  It's good to hear that you've transformed the Black Iron Prison into Freebird Paradise if it's true, but you seem like just another magician who refuses to reveal his tricks.  I'm all for messianic ideals when they're realistic, but not when it's a sham.  Care to elaborate on how you've escaped the inescapables of life that the BIP represents; things like death, taxes, and other grim iron bars of grayface?  Or are you too busy flying your magickkk carpet ?

Quote from: Benaclypse on February 05, 2007, 10:30:50 PM

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on February 05, 2007, 04:22:29 PM

Quote from: CloserToGodThe Black Iron Prison is an idea that I have come across on a website that touts the Principia Discordia and the Illuminatus trilogy books.

The idea as it was explained to me is that in life you are trapped in a prison cell, it is dark and it is inescapable but you cannot see the walls that surround you. As an unwilling convict of this invisible penitentiary, you are in a position of pain and suffering and you have no way to break free until someone points out and makes you understand that you are in a prison.

Once you understand that you are being held against your will, you may start to break down the bars of your jail window, it is a revalation, and a means of evading capture. however, your initial rapture of becoming a free man is short lived, as you will find that there is a cell outside of the cell in which you had been incarserated. While the walls of the first prison are now crumbled, there is another larger wall encasing the captive and another set of bars holding back the freedom which is sought.

What I have found is that this analogy is a an unenlightened one, for it tells of failure to achieve enlightenment, and you had better not try again. It touts freedom but does not deliver. It is no truth bringer or real enlightenment, and is instead a masturbatory thought process that leads in a circle, and this ends in conformity, and bondage.

Breaking down walls is a good thing, but to find that behind every wall is another, is an idea that breads contempt, inadeqacy, and selfish behaviour, it is an idea that is a trick.

I have broken free of the BIP and I find that it is actually a lonely place, it is not populated with individuals, but it does not have any further walls and is not devoid of life. It is a free place that is to be explored and learnt from.

The BIP is Grayface incarnate and a subforum about it on this forum is akin to sermonizing about the Devil in a church.  It's good to hear that you've transformed the Black Iron Prison into Freebird Paradise if it's true, but you seem like just another magician who refuses to reveal his tricks.  I'm all for messianic ideals when they're realistic, but not when it's a sham.  Care to elaborate on how you've escaped the inescapables of life that the BIP represents; things like death, taxes, and other grim iron bars of grayface?  Or are you too busy flying your magickkk carpet ?

If you'd maybe think with your brane for a minute, you'd remember how order and disorder are equal opposites, part of the same thing.  There can still be chaos in a universe of the BIP, and indeed there is much.  You seem to focus on the name and imagery a lot.

Quote from: Felix Mackay on February 06, 2007, 01:03:48 AM

Quote from: Benaclypse on February 05, 2007, 10:30:50 PM

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on February 05, 2007, 04:22:29 PM

Quote from: CloserToGodThe Black Iron Prison is an idea that I have come across on a website that touts the Principia Discordia and the Illuminatus trilogy books.

The idea as it was explained to me is that in life you are trapped in a prison cell, it is dark and it is inescapable but you cannot see the walls that surround you. As an unwilling convict of this invisible penitentiary, you are in a position of pain and suffering and you have no way to break free until someone points out and makes you understand that you are in a prison.

Once you understand that you are being held against your will, you may start to break down the bars of your jail window, it is a revalation, and a means of evading capture. however, your initial rapture of becoming a free man is short lived, as you will find that there is a cell outside of the cell in which you had been incarserated. While the walls of the first prison are now crumbled, there is another larger wall encasing the captive and another set of bars holding back the freedom which is sought.

What I have found is that this analogy is a an unenlightened one, for it tells of failure to achieve enlightenment, and you had better not try again. It touts freedom but does not deliver. It is no truth bringer or real enlightenment, and is instead a masturbatory thought process that leads in a circle, and this ends in conformity, and bondage.

Breaking down walls is a good thing, but to find that behind every wall is another, is an idea that breads contempt, inadeqacy, and selfish behaviour, it is an idea that is a trick.

I have broken free of the BIP and I find that it is actually a lonely place, it is not populated with individuals, but it does not have any further walls and is not devoid of life. It is a free place that is to be explored and learnt from.

The BIP is Grayface incarnate and a subforum about it on this forum is akin to sermonizing about the Devil in a church.  It's good to hear that you've transformed the Black Iron Prison into Freebird Paradise if it's true, but you seem like just another magician who refuses to reveal his tricks.  I'm all for messianic ideals when they're realistic, but not when it's a sham.  Care to elaborate on how you've escaped the inescapables of life that the BIP represents; things like death, taxes, and other grim iron bars of grayface?  Or are you too busy flying your magickkk carpet ?

If you'd maybe think with your brane for a minute, you'd remember how order and disorder are equal opposites, part of the same thing.  There can still be chaos in a universe of the BIP, and indeed there is much.  You seem to focus on the name and imagery a lot.

Thanx Einstein, for correcting the error of my ways, but I never said anything about the order/disorder dichotomy or anything about there being no chaos in it.  I just said that bip is a metaphor for Grayface, designed to break his face.  You seem to think the bip isn't literal or real and that its all just a discoteque.  Can't argue with that kind of genius.  Groovy.

Big Ben coming strong these days

respect due

Quote from: Benaclypse on February 06, 2007, 03:22:49 AM
bip is a metaphor for Grayface, designed to break his face.

thats the good shit right there

Quote from: Benaclypse on February 06, 2007, 03:22:49 AM

Quote from: Felix Mackay on February 06, 2007, 01:03:48 AM

Quote from: Benaclypse on February 05, 2007, 10:30:50 PM

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on February 05, 2007, 04:22:29 PM

Quote from: CloserToGodThe Black Iron Prison is an idea that I have come across on a website that touts the Principia Discordia and the Illuminatus trilogy books.

The idea as it was explained to me is that in life you are trapped in a prison cell, it is dark and it is inescapable but you cannot see the walls that surround you. As an unwilling convict of this invisible penitentiary, you are in a position of pain and suffering and you have no way to break free until someone points out and makes you understand that you are in a prison.

Once you understand that you are being held against your will, you may start to break down the bars of your jail window, it is a revalation, and a means of evading capture. however, your initial rapture of becoming a free man is short lived, as you will find that there is a cell outside of the cell in which you had been incarserated. While the walls of the first prison are now crumbled, there is another larger wall encasing the captive and another set of bars holding back the freedom which is sought.

What I have found is that this analogy is a an unenlightened one, for it tells of failure to achieve enlightenment, and you had better not try again. It touts freedom but does not deliver. It is no truth bringer or real enlightenment, and is instead a masturbatory thought process that leads in a circle, and this ends in conformity, and bondage.

Breaking down walls is a good thing, but to find that behind every wall is another, is an idea that breads contempt, inadeqacy, and selfish behaviour, it is an idea that is a trick.

I have broken free of the BIP and I find that it is actually a lonely place, it is not populated with individuals, but it does not have any further walls and is not devoid of life. It is a free place that is to be explored and learnt from.

The BIP is Grayface incarnate and a subforum about it on this forum is akin to sermonizing about the Devil in a church.  It's good to hear that you've transformed the Black Iron Prison into Freebird Paradise if it's true, but you seem like just another magician who refuses to reveal his tricks.  I'm all for messianic ideals when they're realistic, but not when it's a sham.  Care to elaborate on how you've escaped the inescapables of life that the BIP represents; things like death, taxes, and other grim iron bars of grayface?  Or are you too busy flying your magickkk carpet ?

If you'd maybe think with your brane for a minute, you'd remember how order and disorder are equal opposites, part of the same thing.  There can still be chaos in a universe of the BIP, and indeed there is much.  You seem to focus on the name and imagery a lot.

Thanx Einstein, for correcting the error of my ways, but I never said anything about the order/disorder dichotomy or anything about there being no chaos in it.  I just said that bip is a metaphor for Grayface, designed to break his face.  You seem to think the bip isn't literal or real and that its all just a discoteque.  Can't argue with that kind of genius.  Groovy.

I think you miss the point personally, but you are welcome to interpret it that way if you like.

lol

leave it to us to start bickering in this thread


lol lol lol


anyway - how is Ben's interpretation wrong? it seems pretty sharp from where im sitting

Quote from: LHX on February 06, 2007, 03:55:05 AM
lol

leave it to us to start bickering in this thread


lol lol lol


anyway - how is Ben's interpretation wrong? it seems pretty sharp from where im sitting

Hes mixing up metaphores. Grayface is a symbol of the human attraction to and forcefull imposition of order. The Black Iron Prison is a metaphore for the limits of human senses, understanding, and knowlege of the universe.

Quote from: Buddhist_Monk_Wannabe on February 06, 2007, 04:20:20 AM

Quote from: LHX on February 06, 2007, 03:55:05 AM
lol

leave it to us to start bickering in this thread


lol lol lol


anyway - how is Ben's interpretation wrong? it seems pretty sharp from where im sitting

Hes mixing up metaphores. Grayface is a symbol of the human attraction to and forcefull imposition of order. The Black Iron Prison is a metaphore for the limits of human senses, understanding, and knowlege of the universe.

I think you miss the point personally, but you are welcome to interpret it that way if you like. 

Personally, I'd sayve the Greyface bit for the Machine,Ñ¢ or the System¬Æ, but if you see the BIP as a Greyface thing, more power to you.

However, since that seems to be a new Idea, and it seems to be your new Idea, I'd really like to hear you talk it out.  A rant, maybe?


LMNO
-hip to new Ideas.

Quote from: Benaclypse on February 05, 2007, 10:30:50 PM

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on February 05, 2007, 04:22:29 PM

Quote from: CloserToGodThe Black Iron Prison is an idea that I have come across on a website that touts the Principia Discordia and the Illuminatus trilogy books.

The idea as it was explained to me is that in life you are trapped in a prison cell, it is dark and it is inescapable but you cannot see the walls that surround you. As an unwilling convict of this invisible penitentiary, you are in a position of pain and suffering and you have no way to break free until someone points out and makes you understand that you are in a prison.

Once you understand that you are being held against your will, you may start to break down the bars of your jail window, it is a revalation, and a means of evading capture. however, your initial rapture of becoming a free man is short lived, as you will find that there is a cell outside of the cell in which you had been incarserated. While the walls of the first prison are now crumbled, there is another larger wall encasing the captive and another set of bars holding back the freedom which is sought.

What I have found is that this analogy is a an unenlightened one, for it tells of failure to achieve enlightenment, and you had better not try again. It touts freedom but does not deliver. It is no truth bringer or real enlightenment, and is instead a masturbatory thought process that leads in a circle, and this ends in conformity, and bondage.

Breaking down walls is a good thing, but to find that behind every wall is another, is an idea that breads contempt, inadeqacy, and selfish behaviour, it is an idea that is a trick.

I have broken free of the BIP and I find that it is actually a lonely place, it is not populated with individuals, but it does not have any further walls and is not devoid of life. It is a free place that is to be explored and learnt from.

The BIP is Grayface incarnate and a subforum about it on this forum is akin to sermonizing about the Devil in a church.  It's good to hear that you've transformed the Black Iron Prison into Freebird Paradise if it's true, but you seem like just another magician who refuses to reveal his tricks.  I'm all for messianic ideals when they're realistic, but not when it's a sham.  Care to elaborate on how you've escaped the inescapables of life that the BIP represents; things like death, taxes, and other grim iron bars of grayface?  Or are you too busy flying your magickkk carpet ?

I'm a little confused about this post.  It seems like it is responding to ClosertoGod and the subforum at the same time.  I'd also be interested in an expansion on the claim of the BIP as "Greyface incarnate". 

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on February 06, 2007, 01:47:48 PM

Quote from: Benaclypse on February 05, 2007, 10:30:50 PM

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on February 05, 2007, 04:22:29 PM

Quote from: CloserToGodThe Black Iron Prison is an idea that I have come across on a website that touts the Principia Discordia and the Illuminatus trilogy books.

The idea as it was explained to me is that in life you are trapped in a prison cell, it is dark and it is inescapable but you cannot see the walls that surround you. As an unwilling convict of this invisible penitentiary, you are in a position of pain and suffering and you have no way to break free until someone points out and makes you understand that you are in a prison.

Once you understand that you are being held against your will, you may start to break down the bars of your jail window, it is a revalation, and a means of evading capture. however, your initial rapture of becoming a free man is short lived, as you will find that there is a cell outside of the cell in which you had been incarserated. While the walls of the first prison are now crumbled, there is another larger wall encasing the captive and another set of bars holding back the freedom which is sought.

What I have found is that this analogy is a an unenlightened one, for it tells of failure to achieve enlightenment, and you had better not try again. It touts freedom but does not deliver. It is no truth bringer or real enlightenment, and is instead a masturbatory thought process that leads in a circle, and this ends in conformity, and bondage.

Breaking down walls is a good thing, but to find that behind every wall is another, is an idea that breads contempt, inadeqacy, and selfish behaviour, it is an idea that is a trick.

I have broken free of the BIP and I find that it is actually a lonely place, it is not populated with individuals, but it does not have any further walls and is not devoid of life. It is a free place that is to be explored and learnt from.

The BIP is Grayface incarnate and a subforum about it on this forum is akin to sermonizing about the Devil in a church.  It's good to hear that you've transformed the Black Iron Prison into Freebird Paradise if it's true, but you seem like just another magician who refuses to reveal his tricks.  I'm all for messianic ideals when they're realistic, but not when it's a sham.  Care to elaborate on how you've escaped the inescapables of life that the BIP represents; things like death, taxes, and other grim iron bars of grayface?  Or are you too busy flying your magickkk carpet ?

I'm a little confused about this post.  It seems like it is responding to ClosertoGod and the subforum at the same time.  I'd also be interested in an expansion on the claim of the BIP as "Greyface incarnate". 

No you aren't confused about that.  I was responding to Laz's escape plan, then went off on a tangent about the bip itself, since that's what he was talking about.  I'll write more about the bip later.  I'm going away for a day or few, though I might maybe be able to use a friend's computer tonite.  My own computer is barely holding out.  The colors in the screen blew a fuse, and the keyboard is glitchin'.  Some keys aren't typing what they're supposed to.  I'll get a whole new system in a couple weeks.  I'll see what I can do about a new grayface = bip piece, but it might be a while.

Hmmm... All this talk of Greyface amkes me want to write a piece about it, myself.


I'll race ya.

BIP Rebuttal, it's mighty morphin time!
Transform into ridiculous argument!

Silly, you may get your wish...

Quote from: hunter s.durden on February 06, 2007, 04:07:03 PM
BIP Rebuttal, it's mighty morphin time!
Transform into ridiculous argument!

Silly, you may get your wish...

You just made me touch myself inappropriately  :banana:

Quote from: Benaclypse on February 06, 2007, 03:10:38 PM
I'll see what I can do about a new grayface = bip piece, but it might be a while.

Okay, here's my essay about the Gray Iron Prison:

Grayface is my warden.  Mama always said I should be friends with the warden.  He is, too.  Sometimes, when I can't sleep at night, he orders the prison guards to beat me senseless.

The End.

I'd write a longer essay but with a topic like that, my funny bones would shatter before I could bench it two inches.  I can't write about something that's not entertaining to me.

You may now return to your irregularly scheduled re-butt-al.

man

i dont know where you are coming up with this stuff these days, but it is straight fire

and this:

Quote...and then the end of the world ceased to exist.

is 11/10 worthy

Its truely amazing how many different interpretations there are of the BIP
It's almost like its less of a philosphy and more of an outlook
or even something emotional

its fuckin beautiful, whatever it is

i've got to say this, this might look a bit weird to this Laz guy if he hangs around ..

first we all write rebuttals, but the guy who we're aiming at is not even around.
then, he doesn't show up, but because they were very nice rebuttals and it's a bit of a shame to let the good effort go to waste, we start patting eachother on the back "nicely put, old chap, very well done, you would have certainly showed him .. if he were around"

.. is that what they call a "clusterfuck" ?

other than that, very nicely put old chaps! very well done, you would have certainly showed him, if he were around! no but seriously, good writings, at least i enjoyed them.

Well, I think the next move was to email them to him, or to at least have them hanging around in case someone did go from his place to here.

Quote from: triple zero on February 09, 2007, 08:38:51 AM
i've got to say this, this might look a bit weird to this Laz guy if he hangs around ..

first we all write rebuttals, but the guy who we're aiming at is not even around.
then, he doesn't show up, but because they were very nice rebuttals and it's a bit of a shame to let the good effort go to waste, we start patting eachother on the back "nicely put, old chap, very well done, you would have certainly showed him .. if he were around"

.. is that what they call a "clusterfuck" ?

other than that, very nicely put old chaps! very well done, you would have certainly showed him, if he were around! no but seriously, good writings, at least i enjoyed them.

please

he already got showed and he showed himself


this is just exercise



good writing is good writing regardless of what prompts it


Mike Tyson was known to take sparring sessions so seriously, he would end up bleeding

Quote from: LHX on February 09, 2007, 12:32:44 PMplease

he already got showed and he showed himself


this is just exercise



good writing is good writing regardless of what prompts it

certainly. i was just trying to keep you guys on your toes a littlebit

I'm not leaving this thread until I get a handjob.


Srsly.

uhhh

i thought everybody was just patting each other on the back?

I just wanted to get my thoughts out somewhere so they'd stop rattling around in my head.
And seriously LMNO, don't look at me that way.   :eek:

LMNO caught wiff pants down ITT

Quote from: triple zero on February 09, 2007, 03:13:02 PM
LMNO caught wiff pants down ITT

like that was a first. [rim shot]

You forget to wear a belt once...

wardrobe malfunction ITT

....and here comes the FCC, good going!

Oddly enough i read about the black iron prison within another forum that tended to treat those that were part of this group "discordians, subgenii", as a carnival act, something to gain amusment from. although i think many here tend to see themselves as being just this i also think that there are some thought provoking and quite enlightened ideas written between the lines, but not necessarily blatently stated.
Anyways the concept and idiology of the balck iron prison isnt new too me, although it being stated in such a colourful context is, ive studied aura reading and empathy most my adolscent life, and now into my adult life i find that people are indeed trapped by there own perceptions, and by this they have created there reality of bias that they couldnt escape from even if they wanted too.
This is a system and idiology i've been working on both moving outside of as well as defining the parts that make it up ie: "the machine", for quite a long time, not quite sure how to approach any of this but if anyones ever intrested in comparing notes or experiences id be more then happy to talk, perhaps over a nice game of chess?
Salutations

its definitely amusing here

i dunno


maybe its the candidness that scares people

maybe its the general lack of pride the makes people feel uncomfortable



i remember reading a personal ad by a woman where it said:
"im not looking for a man who is trying to save the world"

lawlz



i cant remember who said it here, but somebody mentioned that doctors can offer anti-depressants, but they cant offer a depressed person reasons to not be depressed


there is some logical fallacies in this society we are living in


all we try to do here is consistently cut thru bullshit and get feedback to make sure that we
arent the bullshitters


anyway -
welcome


you sound well-reasoned

maybe you could teach us a thing or 3

Quote from: LHX on February 13, 2007, 03:08:29 AM

i remember reading a personal ad by a woman where it said:
"im not looking for a man who is trying to save the world"

i cant remember who said it here, but somebody mentioned that doctors can offer anti-depressants, but they cant offer a depressed person reasons to not be depressed

something to do with becoming a society made of individuals driven by their unrational fear, and their own selfish desires - and then allowing others to minipulate our being and control our actions through those desires..
your depression case could be just a simple chemical imbalance, or possibly an individual whos sense of self relies so heavily on these fullfillments, that when they find they can't fullfill them, or the stimuli does not work they lose their purpose of being

which reminds me...
I gotta learn to drive, get a sleek silver Porsche Turbo Coupe, and show to the world what kind of person I am, only through that material emotional connection will I be able to express my sense of self

'depression' is definitely something worth investigating

it seems that a lot of people here have moved beyond depression


we offer after-depressants instead of anti-depressants

I thought we offered a comfortingly radical and edgy self-image

I thought we offered asshattery.

Oh, and by the way:

Quote from: mtpathy on February 13, 2007, 02:45:29 AM
Oddly enough i read about the black iron prison within another forum that tended to treat those that were part of this group "discordians, subgenii", as a carnival act, something to gain amusment from. although i think many here tend to see themselves as being just this i also think that there are some thought provoking and quite enlightened ideas written between the lines, but not necessarily blatently stated.
Anyways the concept and idiology of the balck iron prison isnt new too me, although it being stated in such a colourful context is, ive studied aura reading and empathy most my adolscent life, and now into my adult life i find that people are indeed trapped by there own perceptions, and by this they have created there reality of bias that they couldnt escape from even if they wanted too.
This is a system and idiology i've been working on both moving outside of as well as defining the parts that make it up ie: "the machine", for quite a long time, not quite sure how to approach any of this but if anyones ever intrested in comparing notes or experiences id be more then happy to talk, perhaps over a nice game of chess?
Salutations

I would be very happy to hear about a link of the BIP with empathy (without the metaphysical gang war of "empathy vs emotional contagion").  Some of us here (ahem*me*ahem) tend to get all left-brained when making this shit up.

So, mtpathy:  give us a rant, if'n you please.

Quote from: mtpathy on February 13, 2007, 02:45:29 AM
Oddly enough i read about the black iron prison within another forum that tended to treat those that were part of this group "discordians, subgenii", as a carnival act, something to gain amusment from. although i think many here tend to see themselves as being just this i also think that there are some thought provoking and quite enlightened ideas written between the lines, but not necessarily blatently stated.

Well, think for a moment.  To which would you rather pay attention: a screaming lunatic on a soap box, or a clown juggling flaming clubs whilst occasionally making pithy observations?

There is another "BIP" forum that I know of that is dedicated to Phillip Dick's BIP.  I actually trolled there for a bit but it was rather inactive and so I left.  

Me = curious about which forum mtpath was on...

MW, I'm thinking.  Name looks familiar...

Quote from: LMNO on February 13, 2007, 01:23:28 PM
I thought we offered asshattery.

Oh, and by the way:

Quote from: mtpathy on February 13, 2007, 02:45:29 AM
Oddly enough i read about the black iron prison within another forum that tended to treat those that were part of this group "discordians, subgenii", as a carnival act, something to gain amusment from. although i think many here tend to see themselves as being just this i also think that there are some thought provoking and quite enlightened ideas written between the lines, but not necessarily blatently stated.
Anyways the concept and idiology of the balck iron prison isnt new too me, although it being stated in such a colourful context is, ive studied aura reading and empathy most my adolscent life, and now into my adult life i find that people are indeed trapped by there own perceptions, and by this they have created there reality of bias that they couldnt escape from even if they wanted too.
This is a system and idiology i've been working on both moving outside of as well as defining the parts that make it up ie: "the machine", for quite a long time, not quite sure how to approach any of this but if anyones ever intrested in comparing notes or experiences id be more then happy to talk, perhaps over a nice game of chess?
Salutations

I would be very happy to hear about a link of the BIP with empathy (without the metaphysical gang war of "empathy vs emotional contagion").  Some of us here (ahem*me*ahem) tend to get all left-brained when making this shit up.

So, mtpathy:  give us a rant, if'n you please.

err well i downloaded and read the pdf file repeatedly and although much of it tended to sound like a kid voicing his angst "isnt that a kmfdm album" against the world, there were other parts of it that i found quite new and novel.
as ive stated earlier this concept isnt new too me, but its intresting to find others that i might share my experiences of it with and for them to not think that im to weird.. but i tend to think that this belief of a faceless and massless machine that has all these spinning parts and greased gears is us, nothing more and nothing less.
where many seem to personify the machine as being a thing outside of self ie: society, governement, the female or male species, the president etc. " i assume alot dont i"?  i tend to see this machine as being only a outward manifestation of a inward conflict.
i would even place the idiology of chaos theory into this mix,"sure why not" as this philosophy imo seems to be a westernized concept birthed from the eastern belief of zen "everything ceases to exist, when one begins to exist only in the present", except in the westernized mindset they have taken that belief to mean a more nihilistic everything dies so theres no meaning too life approach.

Quote from: LMNO on February 13, 2007, 02:40:23 PM
Me = curious about which forum mtpath was on...

Quote from: Cain on February 13, 2007, 02:43:33 PM
MW, I'm thinking.  Name looks familiar...

sigh it's good to know that i already have enemies home wouldnt be that without looking over my shoulder "starts singing memories"

Pffft, we don't hold every member of MW responsible for their jackass admins.  Thats the sort of thing Mol does with us, IIRC.

mt, a few reactions:

1.  I don't care if you post on MW.

2.  "ideology of chaos theory" could mean many different things, from the scientific equations to Khaos Madgjieekkque.  could you be more clear on that point?

3.  I tend to separate the Black Iron Prison from the Machine,Ñ¢, and I really don't see it in a nihilistic way.  It's simply a fact: there are some things in this Universe I cannot directly experience, and I cannot even objectively observe the small amount of stuff I can directly experience.  But what I can do is to change the way I experience things.  It's a simple concept, but many, many people think that what they observe is "all" that there "is".

4.  I hold that the Machine,Ñ¢ is what happens when people forget they're in Prison.

5.  Check the "Golden Sphere of Possibility" thread to see another angle of the BIP.

we've been over this before, but i feel i need to add (my own view) an important elaboration on your point 4 :

4 - an example of people forgetting they're in prison, is when they forget that they are just primates, animals, and animals always have instincts and imprints. and oh how much do they want to forget, dressing up in their suits etc.
when people forget this and they still find themselves reacting in an instinctual way from time to time, they try very hard to rationalize their behaviour. from this mixup come a whole lot of the "sin" and "social norm" and "our people" and other straightjackets.

and even if the effect is not very pronounced in everybody, the cumulative effect still fuels the Machine.

Quote from: triple zero on February 15, 2007, 01:12:10 PM
we've been over this before, but i feel i need to add (my own view) an important elaboration on your point 4 :

4 - an example of people forgetting they're in prison, is when they forget that they are just primates, animals, and animals always have instincts and imprints. and oh how much do they want to forget, dressing up in their suits etc.
when people forget this and they still find themselves reacting in an instinctual way from time to time, they try very hard to rationalize their behaviour. from this mixup come a whole lot of the "sin" and "social norm" and "our people" and other straightjackets.

and even if the effect is not very pronounced in everybody, the cumulative effect still fuels the Machine.

Bingo. 

Quote from: triple zero on February 15, 2007, 01:12:10 PM
we've been over this before, but i feel i need to add (my own view) an important elaboration on your point 4 :

4 - an example of people forgetting they're in prison, is when they forget that they are just primates, animals, and animals always have instincts and imprints. and oh how much do they want to forget, dressing up in their suits etc.
when people forget this and they still find themselves reacting in an instinctual way from time to time, they try very hard to rationalize their behaviour. from this mixup come a whole lot of the "sin" and "social norm" and "our people" and other straightjackets.

and even if the effect is not very pronounced in everybody, the cumulative effect still fuels the Machine.

:mittens: Wake up and smell the monkey!

Quote from: mtpathy on February 13, 2007, 02:45:29 AM
Oddly enough i read about the black iron prison within another forum that tended to treat those that were part of this group "discordians, subgenii", as a carnival act, something to gain amusment from. although i think many here tend to see themselves as being just this i also think that there are some thought provoking and quite enlightened ideas written between the lines, but not necessarily blatently stated.

To quote that fucking book:

QuoteWe are a tribe of philosophers, theologians, magicians, scientists, artists, clowns, and similar maniacs...

The rest of that quote goes on about being intrigued with Eris. I still am, but it ebs and flows. There's not so much Orthodox Discordianism about these days. ;)

Quote from: synaptyx on February 15, 2007, 02:04:57 PM
There's not so much Orthodox Discordianism about these days. ;)

Well, that's a relief.

i have to mention, the point 4 elaboration was initially found by somebody else (forgot who), i think on the old (pdcomrefuge) BIP forum. i'm glad you guys seem to agree with my wordings, so now we still have this idea backup up again floating on this board :)

to me, this specific part is really one of the most profound results of the old BIP forum, and it feels to me as the most important answer to "why/how is there a Machine?"

monkeys trying to be not-monkeys, no matter they go crazy

this image will demonstrate to you the confusion of the crazy monkey/not-monkey:
(http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/6792/monkeyep1.gif)
poor monkey.

anyway, i think it would be good if somebody were to write this elaboration up in a few more words (not many), so it can be pasted up in the next edition of whatever everybody's going to print out and spread. and also so it doesn't get lost in the middle of a thread like this.

Everything gets lost in the middle of a thread like this, that's the beauty of this place, only the regulars benefit from it. Kinda makes me feel special.

Quote from: triple zero on February 15, 2007, 02:15:30 PM
i have to mention, the point 4 elaboration was initially found by somebody else (forgot who), i think on the old (pdcomrefuge) BIP forum.
anyway, i think it would be good if somebody were to write this elaboration up in a few more words (not many), so it can be pasted up in the next edition of whatever everybody's going to print out and spread. and also so it doesn't get lost in the middle of a thread like this.

It was me  :ECH:

I'll see what I can do.

this is some damn good dialog

Every time someone says something liek "why don't we all write something .... and .... pamphlet/flyer/book/website ..." I'm always thinking. It's been written already - thread mining FTW!

yes, except that i pretty much remember that this bit was said on the old BIP forum and was really lost before i just thought of it again.

basically, all the secrets of the universe are here  :fnord:

This forum needs a massive data mining program.

that, or a wiki and somebody with too much free time who finds all the "good bits" and sorts them out nicely.

(it seems the only thing missing is a wiki)

remember though, this has been tried before i think, i think somewhere around/near POEE.co.uk and resulted in huge piling mounts of 23pinealfnords. with good bits inside, but nobody dares to go near it.

we need a scrid apprentice

data mining scrids....hmm....[ponders]

the wiki idea is fresh

it becomes a constant refinement rather than a profusely growing entity that eventually nobody wants to look at

you're right it would probably work, with the current sort of no-nonsense mindset we have going on.

as for hosting it, since the real pd.com admin is kind of missing in action, we're kind of looking at Syn now right? *twiddles thumbs* :)

either that, or some free wiki hosting provider. they exist (of course), but unless they offer some solid "download the whole wiki in one go" backup feature, i'm a bit afraid for storing our writings on, say, atthewiki.com

im working on consolidating the feedback yall gave on those diagrams yesterday


interesting results


my brain was flipping on the bus this morning

I'm currently re-imagining the Golden Sphere thread as a bunch of us shooting the shit in a bar.

perhaps we need to have a convention.   :)

(http://www.businessinnovationinsider.com/images/2006/03/Herding%20Cats.jpg)

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on February 15, 2007, 03:13:35 PM
perhaps we need to have a convention.   :)

ill bring the slide show and the projector

Edible menu appetizers

Quote from: triple zero on February 15, 2007, 02:55:20 PM
you're right it would probably work, with the current sort of no-nonsense mindset we have going on.

as for hosting it, since the real pd.com admin is kind of missing in action, we're kind of looking at Syn now right? *twiddles thumbs* :)

either that, or some free wiki hosting provider. they exist (of course), but unless they offer some solid "download the whole wiki in one go" backup feature, i'm a bit afraid for storing our writings on, say, atthewiki.com

Don't do free, do syn-free. ;)

Yeah, I can host a wiki (for free), no problemo.

A PD.com/ POE Alliance ITT

:D

It's about fucking time.

O SNAP

Swote, what flavour of wiki software do youse want?

Beats me, I dunno even how it should work.

Mediawiki, same as Wikipedia?

Sure, what the hell.  It's best if it just gets started, and if we find problems we'll deal with it then.


LMNO
-has found actions are better than debates, in these sorts of cases.

Got the softs and the database set up, will upload the whole thing and have it running by tomorrow morning, latest... I hope. ;)

this is a beautiful development

Quote from: LMNO on February 05, 2007, 05:13:25 PM

Quote from: CloserToGodI have broken free of the BIP and I find that it is actually a lonely place, it is not populated with individuals, but it does not have any further walls and is not devoid of life. It is a free place that is to be explored and learnt from.

This paragraph alone makes it painfully clear that you have no understanding of what we are saying.  You obviously took a quick glance at the metaphor and it,Äôs symbolism, and came to a quick conclusion based upon your own biases, as opposed to the extensive dialogs that can be found here.

It looks more like this "closer to God" guy is trying to pass himself off as some sort of guru or swami.  "Hey, look at me!  I've already transcended everything you are experiencing!".  Unfortunately, that still won't get him laid on the internet.

You don't know the half of it.  You should check out his sight, skip the intro though, trust me. 

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on February 15, 2007, 09:02:45 PM
You don't know the half of it.  You should check out his sight, skip the intro though, trust me. 

Link?

It occurs to me that I should know better.

to spare you checking out his site:

OMG MASONS ARE EVERYWHERE ARGHGH!!!!

TEH MASONS HAVE AN EVIL BUNNY!!!!!!

I dunno, I thought him finding masonic symbolism in Ghostbusters was quite amusing.  Slimer the Mason.  lmao

Quote from: Mangrove on February 15, 2007, 09:14:15 PM
to spare you checking out his site:

OMG MASONS ARE EVERYWHERE ARGHGH!!!!

TEH MASONS HAVE AN EVIL BUNNY!!!!!!

What about the Jews?  It isn't a cool, edgy site without saying stuff about the Zionist oppressors.

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on February 15, 2007, 09:16:07 PM
I dunno, I thought him finding masonic symbolism in Ghostbusters was quite amusing.  Slimer the Mason.  lmao

:argh!:

i read some of that.

Quote from: Mangrove on February 15, 2007, 09:17:56 PM

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on February 15, 2007, 09:16:07 PM
I dunno, I thought him finding masonic symbolism in Ghostbusters was quite amusing.  Slimer the Mason.  lmao

:argh!:

i read some of that.

I thought RWHN was JOKING. :(

Quote from: Doc Howl on February 15, 2007, 09:19:10 PM

Quote from: Mangrove on February 15, 2007, 09:17:56 PM

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on February 15, 2007, 09:16:07 PM
I dunno, I thought him finding masonic symbolism in Ghostbusters was quite amusing.  Slimer the Mason.  lmao

:argh!:

i read some of that.

I thought RWHN was JOKING. :(

at first, i thought he was joking. then i remembered that i had read something about ghostbusters and masonry. turns out i was merely supressing a traumatic memory.

Quote from: Mangrove on February 15, 2007, 09:26:36 PM

Quote from: Doc Howl on February 15, 2007, 09:19:10 PM

Quote from: Mangrove on February 15, 2007, 09:17:56 PM

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on February 15, 2007, 09:16:07 PM
I dunno, I thought him finding masonic symbolism in Ghostbusters was quite amusing.  Slimer the Mason.  lmao

:argh!:

i read some of that.

I thought RWHN was JOKING. :(

at first, i thought he was joking. then i remembered that i had read something about ghostbusters and masonry. turns out i was merely supressing a traumatic memory.

Roger was right all along. :x

Laz was great.  I had to give up after corrected his piece on Donnie Darko, my fingers were going to drop off otherwise.

Quote from: Cain on February 15, 2007, 09:33:55 PM
Laz was great.  I had to give up after corrected his piece on Donnie Darko, my fingers were going to drop off otherwise.

Some of my friends think that way.  Of course, they also view W as the funniest thing ever.

Which, I suppose, is a perfectly valid viewpoint.

has Laz replied to anything or is he busy re-reading The Hiram Key for the bazillionth time?

Quote from: Mangrove on February 15, 2007, 09:14:15 PM
to spare you checking out his site:

OMG MASONS ARE EVERYWHERE ARGHGH!!!!

TEH MASONS HAVE AN EVIL BUNNY!!!!!!

I was wondering where fluffy had got off to!

turns out that fluffy was a 3333443th degree mega-mason(tm) and she wrote donnie darko with the express purpose of scaring laz.

Quote from: Mangrove on February 15, 2007, 09:41:15 PM
has Laz replied to anything or is he busy re-reading The Hiram Key for the bazillionth time?

Laz is a solpsist.  Solipsists don't reply.  They WORD

Quote from: LMNO on February 15, 2007, 12:57:28 PM
mt, a few reactions:

1.  I don't care if you post on MW.

2.  "ideology of chaos theory" could mean many different things, from the scientific equations to Khaos Madgjieekkque.  could you be more clear on that point?

3.¬† I tend to separate the Black Iron Prison from the Machine,Ñ¢, and I really don't see it in a nihilistic way.¬† It's simply a fact: there are some things in this Universe I cannot directly experience, and I cannot even objectively observe the small amount of stuff I can directly experience.¬† But what I can do is to change the way I experience things.¬† It's a simple concept, but many, many people think that what they observe is "all" that there "is".

4.¬† I hold that the Machine,Ñ¢ is what happens when people forget they're in Prison.

5.  Check the "Golden Sphere of Possibility" thread to see another angle of the BIP.

#1 i didnt think u were being serious, only trying to state that any serious point isnt usually a point taken very seriously by  me.
#2 Actually u stated it perfectly the idiology of chaos theory isnt something thats seen or pointed at, but is something thats experienced by the individual, and if that person attempts to explain there "moment" in chaos it only can be stated that everything was moving but i was staying still, which actually is quite contradictory to the theory of chaos. to try and explain chaos theory through string theory, or mathmatical equations only shows that there is a formula where something can be possible, but only through experience by the individual CAN  it actually be a possibility.
#4 Actually i do believe both to play a integrated part within each other, something i used to state when i first come across my realisation of this "machine", was that it exists only because we arent concious of our own existence, and that the machine is both beautiful and scarey because its broken,broken in the context meaning it is the single one element that keeps us within the machine and yet is the only "thing" to take us out of the machine both at the same time, it feed our and is our illusion of the world.
#5 I'll just have to do that and see what there is too see.
Anyways if im not using the correct analogies of either what is understood as the "machine" or the "black iron prison", its mostly because ive actually read very little about it other then what ive stumbled across on here, or there. but is mostly by my own experiences of working with aura reading.

Quote from: Mangrove on February 15, 2007, 09:41:15 PM
has Laz replied to anything or is he busy re-reading The Hiram Key for the bazillionth time?

I signed his guestbook with an invitation to discuss his "findings" but thus far I've heard nothing from the guy. 

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on February 16, 2007, 02:04:02 PM

Quote from: Mangrove on February 15, 2007, 09:41:15 PM
has Laz replied to anything or is he busy re-reading The Hiram Key for the bazillionth time?

I signed his guestbook with an invitation to discuss his "findings" but thus far I've heard nothing from the guy. 

Why?  As far as I can tell, he is just some geek that thinks he's writing to an audience.

Leave the poor little fuckwad to his delusions.

Ultimately I agree.  Just the same, it would be interesting to learn how and why he came to the conclusions he did.  But you're right, in the grand scheme of things it doesn't really matter. 

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on February 16, 2007, 02:25:15 PM
Ultimately I agree.  Just the same, it would be interesting to learn how and why he came to the conclusions he did.  But you're right, in the grand scheme of things it doesn't really matter. 

So far as I can tell, he came to those conclusions before he hung out with discordians.  Then he came here to "investigate" you, and then posted what he'd already decided on.

He is the Geraldo Rivera of the internet "I wish I had a following" blogosphere.

Sounds like 90% of all reporting, so its probably right.

That's pretty much true.  I don't think he really asked us any questions when he came.  It was more him making proclomations of what we were doing and then when we called bullshit and asked him to 'splain, he said "uh uh, I don't have to"
He has the debating tactics of a 3-year old.  

Quote from: Cain on February 16, 2007, 02:30:24 PM
Sounds like 90% of all reporting, so its probably right.

I am right all too often (I'm like Roger, only not as upbeat).  It's nothing supernatural.  I just assume that people are as venal and mean-spirited as they can possibly be.  So far, I bat about .900.

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on February 16, 2007, 02:32:14 PM
That's pretty much true.  I don't think he really asked us any questions when he came.  It was more him making proclomations of what we were doing and then when we called bullshit and asked him to 'splain, he said "uh uh, I don't have to"
He has the debating tactics of a 3-year old.  

Oh, he's a rejected prophet.  Those are fun.

Of course, I didn't ask you guys too many questions, either.  But that's because I am only partially interested in what's going on here.

Quote from: Doc Howl on February 16, 2007, 02:13:48 PM

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on February 16, 2007, 02:04:02 PM

Quote from: Mangrove on February 15, 2007, 09:41:15 PM
has Laz replied to anything or is he busy re-reading The Hiram Key for the bazillionth time?

I signed his guestbook with an invitation to discuss his "findings" but thus far I've heard nothing from the guy. 

Why?  As far as I can tell, he is just some geek that thinks he's writing to an audience.

Leave the poor little fuckwad to his delusions.

This, from the guy who feels the need to smack people just for livin'?

heh.  just yankin your chain, doc.

Quote from: LMNO on February 16, 2007, 02:36:04 PM

Quote from: Doc Howl on February 16, 2007, 02:13:48 PM

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on February 16, 2007, 02:04:02 PM

Quote from: Mangrove on February 15, 2007, 09:41:15 PM
has Laz replied to anything or is he busy re-reading The Hiram Key for the bazillionth time?

I signed his guestbook with an invitation to discuss his "findings" but thus far I've heard nothing from the guy. 

Why?  As far as I can tell, he is just some geek that thinks he's writing to an audience.

Leave the poor little fuckwad to his delusions.

This, from the guy who feels the need to smack people just for livin'?

heh.  just yankin your chain, doc.

You say that like it's a [u[bad[/u] thing.

You know, if I could get funding for smacking people, this country might be a lot better off.

Hey!  Why do you get to smack people, but we have to leave Laz alone?

Quote from: LMNO on February 16, 2007, 02:59:08 PM
Hey!  Why do you get to smack people, but we have to leave Laz alone?

Good question.  I shall answer it as soon as I can think of something clever to say.

Ok, server problems have stopped me completing the install of the wiki. Lemme go kick some butt and I'll give it another go.

Every time i try to explain that i believe there is Reality and Truth but that it is impossible to know Reality and Truth from Illusion and Lie because of the limits of our perceptions i get looked at funny.


also,
i
am
a necromancer

That stinks of Faith, you know.

Quote from: LMNO on December 03, 2008, 03:34:17 PM
That stinks of Faith, you know.

What does?

"I believe there is a Reality and a Truth but I can't prove it."

Quote from: LMNO on December 03, 2008, 05:05:13 PM
"I believe there is a Reality and a Truth but I can't prove it."

Yeah... its a tricky problem wading between think/opinion/belief/faith.

"I think that there may be an Objective Reality but I can't prove it." would probably be better, but I'd bet that's what Regret was trying to say anyway

General Semantics ITT ;-)

Why does it 'stink of Faith' rather than simply be a matter of establishing postulate?
It is faith to assume that there is some objective substrate to allow subjective experience to occur?

It is if you can't prove it, yes.  By definition.

Quote from: LMNO on December 03, 2008, 05:59:16 PM
It is if you can't prove it, yes.  By definition.

well, even radical skepticism rests on 'cogito ergo sum' but that's not really provable, is it?
you gotta have postulates somewhere, no?  you can call that faith, but i wouldn't say it 'stinks' of it, as if it's something bad/avoidable.

My shit stinks too, but that's not avoidable.

All I'm saying is that to postulate an Ultimate Reality and Truth, and then turning around and saying it's indistinguishable from Illusion and Lies is sloppy thinking.  That seems even worse than black/white, right/wrong.

Actually, between them, Nietzsche Hume and Foucault even did away with the idea of an individual personality.  As Nietzsche pointed out, "there is thinking therefore there is thinking" is the only real conclusion one can draw.

Quote from: Cain on December 03, 2008, 06:17:26 PM
Actually, between them, Nietzsche Hume and Foucault even did away with the idea of an individual personality.  As Nietzsche pointed out, "there is thinking therefore there is thinking" is the only real conclusion one can draw.

That rules.

I'ma go take a more serious look at these Nietzsche PDFs nao... and by "nao" I mean when finals aren't eating my brain.

Iptuous,

It's semantics.

If you believe X but can't prove it... that's faith (Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, though not beheld). If you propose X, or consider X or think X is a pretty good idea, then you don't have to worry about faith.

I think there is an Objective Reality...
It appears to me that an Objective Reality probably exists...
If Objective Reality exists...

vs.

I believe that Objective Reality exists...

It may be a small thing, but if the words we use influence our thoughts (which General Semantics contends), then its definately something to consider. :)

Quote from: John H Marburger III, "Beneath Reality"The central question is: If we agree that life is more than a dream, that our consciousness dwells in a universe that includes things other than itself, then what is the nature of those things?

Quote from: LMNO on December 03, 2008, 06:17:07 PM
All I'm saying is that to postulate an Ultimate Reality and Truth, and then turning around and saying it's indistinguishable from Illusion and Lies is sloppy thinking.  That seems even worse than black/white, right/wrong.

yes. looking back over the thread i realize the wording isn't good.
'I  believe X, but can't prove it' is not at all the same as 'I postulate X, but it is unknowable in its entirety'

Quote from: Iptuous on December 03, 2008, 06:47:35 PM

Quote from: LMNO on December 03, 2008, 06:17:07 PM
All I'm saying is that to postulate an Ultimate Reality and Truth, and then turning around and saying it's indistinguishable from Illusion and Lies is sloppy thinking.  That seems even worse than black/white, right/wrong.

yes. looking back over the thread i realize the wording isn't good.
'I  believe X, but can't prove it' is not at all the same as 'I postulate X, but it is unknowable in its entirety'

Ba Da Bing!

Quote from: Cainad on December 03, 2008, 06:26:28 PM

Quote from: Cain on December 03, 2008, 06:17:26 PM
Actually, between them, Nietzsche Hume and Foucault even did away with the idea of an individual personality.  As Nietzsche pointed out, "there is thinking therefore there is thinking" is the only real conclusion one can draw.

That rules.

I'ma go take a more serious look at these Nietzsche PDFs nao... and by "nao" I mean when finals aren't eating my brain.

I don't know if his objections to Rousseau are in his main books, but they are certainly present within his notes, published as The Will to Power.  His general metaphysic is pretty much global skepticism anyhow, so it fits.

I think Foucault covers the same ground in The Order of Things.

Quote from: Cain on December 03, 2008, 06:59:23 PM

Quote from: Cainad on December 03, 2008, 06:26:28 PM

Quote from: Cain on December 03, 2008, 06:17:26 PM
Actually, between them, Nietzsche Hume and Foucault even did away with the idea of an individual personality.  As Nietzsche pointed out, "there is thinking therefore there is thinking" is the only real conclusion one can draw.

That rules.

I'ma go take a more serious look at these Nietzsche PDFs nao... and by "nao" I mean when finals aren't eating my brain.

I don't know if his objections to Rousseau are in his main books, but they are certainly present within his notes, published as The Will to Power.  His general metaphysic is pretty much global skepticism anyhow, so it fits.

I think Foucault covers the same ground in The Order of Things.

Is the above Nietzschean quote from "The Will to Power"? I've never read that one.

Quote from: Ratatosk on December 03, 2008, 06:28:16 PM

I think there is an Objective Reality...
It appears to me that an Objective Reality probably exists...
If Objective Reality exists...

vs.

I believe that Objective Reality exists...

Semantics has always been a really big interest of mine, Rat. One really cool semantical change with the concept of belief would be to take your final statement, "I believe that Objective Reality exists," and reconfigure it to say "The existence of an Objective Reality is a belief which I hold," thereby changing some of the implications of the statement. The former posits the implication that the belief is an integral part of one's makeup, whereas the latter illustrates belief as being a cognitive tool, which is much closer to the three examples you posted before the one mentioning belief.

Quote from: LMNO on February 15, 2007, 12:57:28 PM
4.  I hold that the Machine,Ñ¢ is what happens when people forget they're in Prison.

I really like this.  Triple Zero expanded upon it nicely.

Quote from: Cain on December 03, 2008, 06:17:26 PM
Actually, between them, Nietzsche Hume and Foucault even did away with the idea of an individual personality.  As Nietzsche pointed out, "there is thinking therefore there is thinking" is the only real conclusion one can draw.

Reduced to first principles, I believe you can only be certain of two things that you can apply pretty much universally:

1. Something is going on.
2. Not necessarily.

I am still uncertain if you can apply point 2 to point 1. I'm also not certain how useful it is to say really, but here I am saying it.

Quote from: CloserToGod
I have broken free of the BIP and I find that it is actually a lonely place, it is not populated with individuals, but it does not have any further walls and is not devoid of life. It is a free place that is to be explored and learnt from.

As many have pointed out CtG seems to have missed the point in claiming to have "escaped".  However it does strike close to something that I've been wondering about, namely that the idea of "jailbreaking" seems to run counter to the BiP metaphor, i.e. that you cannot escape the limitations of your perceptions.  I did a little searching for the term in the PD.com forums but didn't seem to see a discussion on the topic.

  Could someone point me to one perhaps?  Or have I too missed the point albeit in a different way?

jailbreaking implies jailbuilding

"Jailbreak" seems to be a red herring.

For me, it means the act of breaking out of your standard cell of perception.  Even if you can never get free from the BIP, that doesn't mean you shouldn't keep trying.

perhaps jail break (getting out of your cell) and prison break (escaping the prison of perception {you cant}) clarifies it, you can move around the prison enter and (hopefully) exit other cells but there is no exit from the perception facility itself

Quote from: shadowfurry23 on December 03, 2008, 08:01:50 PM

As many have pointed out CtG seems to have missed the point in claiming to have "escaped".  However it does strike close to something that I've been wondering about, namely that the idea of "jailbreaking" seems to run counter to the BiP metaphor, i.e. that you cannot escape the limitations of your perceptions.  I did a little searching for the term in the PD.com forums but didn't seem to see a discussion on the topic.

  Could someone point me to one perhaps?  Or have I too missed the point albeit in a different way?

I was confused about the "jailbreak" metaphor in relation to the BIP for a long time, too, although I think I may have come to a (possibly erroneous) conclusion regarding it.

My initial thoughts were, "If we can't escape the BIP, but can only tear down/rearrange the bars/walls to find ourselves in a different/larger prison, then why use the term 'jailbreak'?" In my mind looking at the metaphor, a "jailbreak" from the BIP would and could be nothing short of physical death.

But after ruminating on it a little longer, I remembered the bit from the pamphlet (or possibly the "What Now?" section in the Wiki, I can't remember) about how recognizing one's own prisons gives you the ability to free some headspace. And rather than a jailbreak being freedom from the prison itself, I thought that maybe the metaphor is talking about letting go of the mental claustrophobia that comes from feeling trapped in the walls. I have since taken the jailbreak metaphor to be more of a way of saying, "Calm the fuck down, it'll be okay in your cell as long as you remember to breathe," rather than a way of saying, "I got the spoons here, kid; let's tunnel our way out."

To quote RWHN's immortal words: "Suffocation is simply where you stopped breathing."

Quote from: shadowfurry23 on December 03, 2008, 08:01:50 PM

As many have pointed out CtG seems to have missed the point in claiming to have "escaped".  However it does strike close to something that I've been wondering about, namely that the idea of "jailbreaking" seems to run counter to the BiP metaphor, i.e. that you cannot escape the limitations of your perceptions.  I did a little searching for the term in the PD.com forums but didn't seem to see a discussion on the topic.

  Could someone point me to one perhaps?  Or have I too missed the point albeit in a different way?

There are a few hairy debates on this topic... LMNO and I had a rather lengthy one IIRC.

I don't think jailbreak is quite the right term though....

For me, the Prison appears as a prison as long as you don't see it, don't know its there, what its made of or how to modify it.... HOWEVER, once you start changing your prison, once you start considering block by block, bar by bar what stays, what goes, what you can influence and what you can't influence, then I think you can choose to turn your constraints and your limitations into something other than a prison.

Many people disagree with me. Yet I'd consider a submarine, a spaceship, the harness on a roller coaster to all consist of constraints and limitations. Yet, those constraints and limitations, rather than being a prison, are what allow us to go experience space, the deep oceans or a thrill ride. I think, if we are conscious of our limitations, that we can turn our Prison into a vehicle of exploration. After all, getting to experience LIFE seems just as dangerous and rewarding as getting to experience "The Demon Drop".

that makes some sense ratat a prison which when you leave the cell rearrange the cell blocks becomes a vehicle, its a sloppy metaphor but i agree with the idea it tries to convey

Quote from: F.M.E on December 03, 2008, 08:28:47 PM
that makes some sense ratat a prison which when you leave the cell rearrange the cell blocks becomes a vehicle, its a sloppy metaphor but i agree with the idea it tries to convey

It reminds me of the saying, "Turning a house into a home," except in this case I guess it would be "Turning a cell into a cottage."

an erector set prison, the bars appear sold till you find the wrench and to rework them into the vehicle of your own design.
unfortunately an erector set metaphor is badly dated it needs a modern computer game/toy reference that conveys the same meaning

Quote from: Manta Obscura on December 03, 2008, 07:51:29 PM

Quote from: Cain on December 03, 2008, 06:59:23 PM

Quote from: Cainad on December 03, 2008, 06:26:28 PM

Quote from: Cain on December 03, 2008, 06:17:26 PM
Actually, between them, Nietzsche Hume and Foucault even did away with the idea of an individual personality.  As Nietzsche pointed out, "there is thinking therefore there is thinking" is the only real conclusion one can draw.

That rules.

I'ma go take a more serious look at these Nietzsche PDFs nao... and by "nao" I mean when finals aren't eating my brain.

I don't know if his objections to Rousseau are in his main books, but they are certainly present within his notes, published as The Will to Power.  His general metaphysic is pretty much global skepticism anyhow, so it fits.

I think Foucault covers the same ground in The Order of Things.

Is the above Nietzschean quote from "The Will to Power"? I've never read that one.

I don't think it is that exact quote, but its very similar, and yes it is from The Will to Power.  Its either in the book on European Nihilism, or the book on Metaphysics, possibly both.

Quote from: Manta Obscura on December 03, 2008, 08:31:09 PM

Quote from: F.M.E on December 03, 2008, 08:28:47 PM
that makes some sense ratat a prison which when you leave the cell rearrange the cell blocks becomes a vehicle, its a sloppy metaphor but i agree with the idea it tries to convey

It reminds me of the saying, "Turning a house into a home," except in this case I guess it would be "Turning a cell into a cottage."

Maybe, but I always thought of that line as saying you had become comfortable in your house, thus it became a home... or that you had 'settled'. This seems to be the opposite of what someone in the BiP might need to do ;-)

I think its important to stress that you modify your 'prison' into a vehicle of exploration that is most useful to experiencing/exploring, it won't necessarily be comfortable and familiar, it might not be roomy, it may be tricky to drive... but its worth the difficulty in order to gain the prize... experiencing life.

It can be difficult to explore if a man is at ease in his Inn... he may need to get OUT.

Quote from: Ratatosk on December 03, 2008, 08:43:42 PM

Quote from: Manta Obscura on December 03, 2008, 08:31:09 PM

Quote from: F.M.E on December 03, 2008, 08:28:47 PM
that makes some sense ratat a prison which when you leave the cell rearrange the cell blocks becomes a vehicle, its a sloppy metaphor but i agree with the idea it tries to convey

It reminds me of the saying, "Turning a house into a home," except in this case I guess it would be "Turning a cell into a cottage."

Maybe, but I always thought of that line as saying you had become comfortable in your house, thus it became a home... or that you had 'settled'. This seems to be the opposite of what someone in the BiP might need to do ;-)

I think its important to stress that you modify your 'prison' into a vehicle of exploration that is most useful to experiencing/exploring, it won't necessarily be comfortable and familiar, it might not be roomy, it may be tricky to drive... but its worth the difficulty in order to gain the prize... experiencing life.

It can be difficult to explore if a man is at ease in his Inn... he may need to get OUT.

I'm digging the idea of the "prison" being transformed into a "vehicle."

When I mentioned the cottage bit, I wasn't necessarily referring to comfort or lackadaisicality (if that's a word), really; I had meant it as an allusion to my previous post about not feeling confined or claustrophobic . . . maintaining the ability to find your situation workable rather than gloom-and-doom. But I see what you mean about not falling into the trap of comfort and familiarity. Good metaphors, Rat.

i thought the erector set prison was a very good fit , but i actually played with erector sets as a kid so i can get its not hitting people w/o that experience

Quote from: F.M.E on December 03, 2008, 08:59:04 PM
i thought the erector set prison was a very good fit , but i actually played with erector sets as a kid so i can get its not hitting people w/o that experience

I've never played with one, although I did play with Tinker Toys and Legos as a kid. Maybe one of those two could be adopted into a BIP-style metaphor.

Come to think of it, Legos might be really good. We're all little Lego dudes stuck in our Lego Block Forts (LBF), and it's up to us to rebuild the block forts into a Lego Block Plane (LBP)*. But we can never really escape from the LBF because, as Legos, we are and ever shall be surrounded by Legos, LBFs, or LBPs. Our very bodies are made of Legos, so we can't escape the LBF until we die, a.k.a. experience the Great Pulling Apart of Pieces (GPAoP) . . . .

Jesus, I need to get some more sleep.





*Sold separately

the nice thing about erector set was you got tools to build/reconfigure it into the design you want, Lego is definitly more cross generational

I tend to think of the term "jailbreak", in this metaphor, as "breaking down your jail" by consciously recognizing its component parts, thereby giving you the ability to interact with and change the way you perceive the world.

Quote from: Nigel on December 03, 2008, 09:46:49 PM
I tend to think of the term "jailbreak", in this metaphor, as "breaking down your jail" by consciously recognizing its component parts, thereby giving you the ability to interact with and change the way you perceive the world.

TITCM


I've tried to deal with the confusion surrounding this metaphor in the past, but I don't know how successful I was. All I know is that I butted in on one of the famous LMNO-vs-Ratatosk debates.

Basically, I argued that the confusion over "breaking out" of the BIP (which is referred to in the very first part of the BIP pamphlet) is the result of actually having two metaphors with the same name. Somehow this dual metaphor sneaked its way into the publication without anyone complaining, and I rather like that even though, or perhaps because, it causes this confusion. I'm going to try to restate my position.

The first Black Iron Prison I will deal with is the "larger" BIP. This is the BIP that consists largely of biological limits on our perception, and this is the one where we "rearrange the bars" but cannot escape because to "escape" this BIP implies nothing short of omniscience. We as humans are biologically incapable of, say, perceiving all wavelengths of light simultaneously or hearing sounds out of our fairly limited range. However, the other component of this BIP is belief systems, which are highly changeable. Therefore this larger BIP cannot be broken out of, but it can be altered for the purpose of changing one's perception of reality to some extent.

The second Black Iron Prison is the "smaller" BIP. This is the BIP that we are invited to "escape" in the pamphlet, and it's also the BIP that (hypothetically) one escapes by comprehending the psychobabble about Reality Grids in the Principia. This is the BIP of ignorance, since one cannot change one perceptions of reality if one never grasps the idea that one's perceptions are limited.

Corollary to all this is that when we "break out" of the smaller BIP, then we are free to tinker with the belief systems that comprise part of the larger BIP. Your mileage may vary, and certain people seem to be more focused about either the larger BIP or the smaller one.



I did all these fancy metal gymnastics, and then Nigel wrote the above quote and made the idea of two BIPs unnecessary.

Quote from: Cainad on December 04, 2008, 01:02:27 AM

Quote from: Nigel on December 03, 2008, 09:46:49 PM
I tend to think of the term "jailbreak", in this metaphor, as "breaking down your jail" by consciously recognizing its component parts, thereby giving you the ability to interact with and change the way you perceive the world.

TITCM

Indeed.  Very cleanly stated, Nigel.

I like where that just went.

The only apprehension I have is that this creates a Finish Line, and the ability for someone to say "I have broken down my prison cell.  I am free."

Yeah, they're missing the concept, but i'm really feel that the act of breaking down the walls is a constant, unending process which is far more important than "finishing".

Just because you pruned your hedges last spring doesn't mean you never have to garden again.  And just because you broke down your prison walls doesn't mean you're not using the bricks to build a new one.

A true initiation never ends.  The journey is more important than the destination.  Breaking through the wall is more important than what's on the other side.

Quote from: Cainad on December 04, 2008, 01:02:27 AM

Quote from: Nigel on December 03, 2008, 09:46:49 PM
I tend to think of the term "jailbreak", in this metaphor, as "breaking down your jail" by consciously recognizing its component parts, thereby giving you the ability to interact with and change the way you perceive the world.

TITCM


I've tried to deal with the confusion surrounding this metaphor in the past, but I don't know how successful I was. All I know is that I butted in on one of the famous LMNO-vs-Ratatosk debates.

Basically, I argued that the confusion over "breaking out" of the BIP (which is referred to in the very first part of the BIP pamphlet) is the result of actually having two metaphors with the same name. Somehow this dual metaphor sneaked its way into the publication without anyone complaining, and I rather like that even though, or perhaps because, it causes this confusion. I'm going to try to restate my position.

The first Black Iron Prison I will deal with is the "larger" BIP. This is the BIP that consists largely of biological limits on our perception, and this is the one where we "rearrange the bars" but cannot escape because to "escape" this BIP implies nothing short of omniscience. We as humans are biologically incapable of, say, perceiving all wavelengths of light simultaneously or hearing sounds out of our fairly limited range. However, the other component of this BIP is belief systems, which are highly changeable. Therefore this larger BIP cannot be broken out of, but it can be altered for the purpose of changing one's perception of reality to some extent.

The second Black Iron Prison is the "smaller" BIP. This is the BIP that we are invited to "escape" in the pamphlet, and it's also the BIP that (hypothetically) one escapes by comprehending the psychobabble about Reality Grids in the Principia. This is the BIP of ignorance, since one cannot change one perceptions of reality if one never grasps the idea that one's perceptions are limited.

Corollary to all this is that when we "break out" of the smaller BIP, then we are free to tinker with the belief systems that comprise part of the larger BIP. Your mileage may vary, and certain people seem to be more focused about either the larger BIP or the smaller one.



I did all these fancy metal gymnastics, and then Nigel wrote the above quote and made the idea of two BIPs unnecessary.

To Nigel for putting it simply and eloquently, and to Cainad for explaining the intricacies:  :mittens:

Bumped to the new page, because I edited it pretty heavily.

Quote from: LMNO on December 04, 2008, 02:12:31 PM
I like where that just went.

The only apprehension I have is that this creates a Finish Line, and the ability for someone to say "I have broken down my prison cell.  I am free."

Yeah, they're missing the concept, but i'm really feel that the act of breaking down the walls is a constant, unending process which is far more important than "finishing".

Just because you pruned your hedges last spring doesn't mean you never have to garden again.  And just because you broke down your prison walls doesn't mean you're not using the bricks to build a new one.

A true initiation never ends.  The journey is more important than the destination.  Breaking through the wall is more important than what's on the other side.

My shorthand is this:

Breaking out of your cell is kinda like the ole cliche, expanding your horizons. 

I see two shapes, one inside the other.  The outer shape is like the larger BIP Cainad talks about.  For arguments sake let's say it is a circle.  Of course, since we can never really perceive "everything" we don't really know that it's a circle.  The inner shape is what we can perceive.  It's more of an irregular shape, and we never really know entirely what the shape is, because as we "expand our horizons", we reveal more of the edges.  In fact, we discover that some edges go farther out than we expected.  So it's kinda like feeling around in the dark in some respect.  But as we open out minds to more input, some dark is lifted and we discover these new "edges" that we didn't know existed before. 

I really should Gliffy this. 

I was thinking the same thing as I was reading that.

I have a better solution, courtesy of incomprehensible French philosophy.

However, you will have to wait for one (1) rant and one (1) exposition, probably in this forum.

I know I paid for the whole seat, but right now I'm only using the edge!



...



Man, that joke isn't really funny when you write it down.   :kingmeh:

Sadly, I'm gonna have to complete this job application form first.  It is mostly done, but will require a little more work.

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on December 04, 2008, 02:41:54 PM
My shorthand is this:

Breaking out of your cell is kinda like the ole cliche, expanding your horizons. 

I see two shapes, one inside the other.  The outer shape is like the larger BIP Cainad talks about.  For arguments sake let's say it is a circle.  Of course, since we can never really perceive "everything" we don't really know that it's a circle.  The inner shape is what we can perceive.  It's more of an irregular shape, and we never really know entirely what the shape is, because as we "expand our horizons", we reveal more of the edges.  In fact, we discover that some edges go farther out than we expected.  So it's kinda like feeling around in the dark in some respect.  But as we open out minds to more input, some dark is lifted and we discover these new "edges" that we didn't know existed before. 

I really should Gliffy this. 

I totally just got a mental image of being inside a giant geode.

Make sense.  Plus, you can only see how beautiful it is once you break it open.



ZOMG!  Metaphor Confluence!

Well, that took longer than it should. Rant up.  Exposition to follow.

Incidentally, rant = awesome.