Messages

Apologies for the tangent on Gnosticism and religion in general. The way I see it worldviews apply here. Also I think the Black Iron Prison concept we are discussing goes beyond the distributable pamphlet version available for download. I'm attempting to combine three versions of the Black Iron Prison and despite the hits and misses here and there it seems doable to find some agreement between them all; if nothing more than a vague possibility I haven't discounted yet. I will try and limit references to religion here on out.

I disagree.  If you take my previous reply into account, since your BIP isn,Äôt everything, then you can contrast it by mapping out how you decipher the universe, and seeing all the ways in which you don,Äôt decode your experiences.

For example, if you,Äôre a biology major, try looking at the world through the eyes of a Victorian Poet.  If you,Äôre a musician, learn physics.  If you speak English, become fluent in Japanese.  The walls and bars of your cell will soon become apparent.

There is encouragement to explore more domains of knowledge and aquire new skills and talents but the limitations to that could be self-imposed or due to other constraints; some maybe even preferable ones.

Consider life with no constraints whatsoever. (might sound nice to some folks) Then consider everyone alive without any constraints whatsoever. (maybe not so nice) Is it a meglomaniac that desires such a life? Limitations ( walls and bars ) if I understand this correctly doesn't sound like such a bad thing for folks like that. Maybe something simplier with no constraints like a person posting 1billion post a day? Why. Desire. No Limitations (walls and bars) Intriguing. Maybe worth more consideration...

I can't see getting much objection to stating that lots of people get the shit end of the stick in life. So maybe this has much to do with an underlying assumption within the BIP concept. We could be getting somewhere perhaps?

(Limitations sounds like it'd be a good name for a chapter in some book.)

So if anyone's reality is validated as being true within the BIP meta-structure (as it were) then basically anything goes!

You know I,Äôm gonna ask you to define ,Äútruth,,Äù right?

Right.

I thought you would ask me about something else when actually you never brought it up? In this reply. Maybe something simplier for me to answer.

In the context of how I said it; 'true' is anyone's version of reality however they go about validating it. Whereas 'false' normally would be a worldview that is riddled with BS. (noted this is posted on an discordian forum.-heh)

If taken to mean 'truth' then maybe in the sense of the 'truth according to Garp or Joe or Dags or LMNO or whoever' arise contradictions about reality then what? All are true and none false? I know this presents a dichotomy but it's about nothing specific where other options may present themselves such as differences of perspective and such.   

Regarding the truth of BIP is it taken at face value? Without much questioning it's underlying assumptions. The first HIP took a look at a dissemination process where it's accepted without question as 'being cool'. Is 'accepted without questioning' what BIP is about? So what could make BIP false or an interpretation of BIP false? If it's nothing much then what does that say?

If each BIP is a personal expression of a persons 'system of thought'. This is what I meant by everything. Everything else can't intrude without being adopted into the schema a person already has. ( the mind can't focus on what it can't clearly see.) So if it's personal then what's outside of one's schema might as well not exist. How does BIP include others when the only walls between us are our windows of perception; so to speak. How can one person say another persons interpretation is BS without resorting to some other philosophy, without saying one philosophy is better than the other? This is more at the part where you say it doesn't conflict from one 'system of thought' to another. Each can accept the concept without contradiction. ( Yet consider their reality as something less than the real thing and just some abstraction that happens to be different from other abstractions; neither being more true or a sort of I can take it or leave it since it's not really real.-heh or something) This mainly towards the 'systems of thought' you've mentioned. So... then is the second HIP ModL of Joe's interpretation of BIP correct then as he sees it with American Idol being his Black Iron Prison? You see where I'm going with this?

Is this the everything is true? Discordian mindflip? If so then yes; anything goes. ie;What happens to people when they die? Whatever they believe will happen. Why are we here? We are here for whatever you think we are here for. It's a philosophy of the whatevers or something? Do I think this is true? Who cares? Right. So anyways... I think eventually I'll get to my point on this one because I can't say it's a simple thing to answer; at least for me.

So far as I can tell none of the above then contradicts the BIP you explain when you say all systems of thought are basically valid. (ie; true) This all of the above here is the longer version of what I meant by 'true'.

I see no mechanism within the BIP framework to weed out the BS from what your telling me? Like what I said above is it BS or not? What standard would you use to know? Is the ModL HIP of Joe's BIP in my last post valid according to BIP. ( ← does that last sentence make an sense )

It even get's worse. When someone like Laz reads BIP and came to his conclusions about it according to his/her/it's system of thought it was railed against; By what mechanism within the BIP's philosophies and such would  Laz understand he had made an error in his reasoning? To say someone has made an error in reasoning requires a standard of truth does it not?

Also, what do you consider "the first part"?  There's a lot of different stuff in there. And what doesn't ring true?

just overall it didn,Äôt get in depth enough to engage me.

Yeah, I understand.  The BIP pamphlet was the first thing written, it hasn,Äôt been revised since we all started kicking it around.  I think we need a second edition to include stuff from the Wiki, etc.  Maybe someday.

It didn't engage me more specifically because BIP sounded like it was seeking a certain type of target. I didn't feel like I fitted the demographic; so to speak. Like I said earlier most of the BIP specifics didn't ring true with me (specifically) but perhaps I'm somewhat familiar with the target in mind.

Maybe those 'plugged in' and unaware of it.  This is my main source of interest in the project btw. I'd like to one day be a critical thinking mechanic or something like that. You know? Or just be able to reply to something without feeling like I left out way too much. Anyways if you don't ask much on the next reply I'll just let it be. You know I've been gone so long that it's actually pretty good I'm checking it out since I have no clue of much else going on. So my take on BIP is pretty damn blind!-heh Unlike Laz though I found the BIP intriguing and wondered if it could unshackle some minds? Pretty excited at the thought actually. Then RWHN made me wonder if I had possibly missed something and it could apply to me? I still don't know like I said pre-empting this reply; it's a vague possibility I haven't discounted yet.

Well alright LMNO that's it for the edits. Thanks for reading man. I hope I gave you something to consider and if not. I'll keep fishing around.-heh

- Dags

note: The HIP (Humourous Interludes Perhaps) in the earlier post were meant as ideas of mine towards the Lollercaust or whatever if not verbatim just some ideas or something. If they are funny, if not (skip it). I can't tell one way or the other.

note: Laz stuff mentioned here is not a direct verbal assault I assure him if he/she/it read this post. Just a point of interest from recent post I've read about it.

Wherever in there.

note: Bye. Bye.

[I purposefully didn,Äôt read the library and additional works on the main page such so far but I do plan on doing so.]

Wow.  Cool. Ok, Here we go:

Like old times and new times at the same time.

First off, we absolutely stole the phrase from PKD.  However, the way we use it is different from the way he uses it.

I still find his way interesting enough to explore it some more. I am not
familiar with Gnosticism but in the most basic form is that of having
knowledge that others do not possess and possibly cannot possess. The
term brings to mind agnosticism which I,Äôm more familiar with as an lack of
knowledge concerning god claims. So god figures in there somewhere but
from a quick look at the wikipedia influences of Gnosticism included folks
such as Crowley, Ginsberg and I was pleased to see Howard Bloom thrown
into the mix as well. That alone tells me there is a great deal of tolerance
and/or lack of dogma involved to elicit the support (if it exist as I haven,Äôt
looked into that much) from such a diverse minded group of individuals. Not
to mention the lack of cookie-cutter mindedness you may find within other
dogmatic religions. Like I said this is really tentative; If making such a
statement on a Gnostic forum I can imagine I would get some angry
responses with  the cry of the ,Äòtrue gnostics' at the likes of Crowley
espousing himself or somehow getting mixed up with having studied and
found his influence with the religion? If Gnosticism is still an active religion. I
don,Äôt claim to know. Nor at the time I'm posting this care to know. I like
looking forward to checking it out later on. That's how my BIP rolls.

I think PKD,Äôs involvement with it definitely adds some dimension and
depth to the Black Iron Prison in how he arrived at the concept. In fact put
in the same way you,Äôve stated it PKD could have stolen the BIP from
Gnosticism. He just gave it a name. The phrase itself is nothing without a
referent or concept behind of it. That was the appeal wasn,Äôt it? Even if your
aims are to use BIP for a different purpose than PKD. 

Could BIP be more Gnostic than fictional? God could be watching the use of
his original thought passed down to 1st century religious figures and on to
Crowley and others? Just a thought.(I,Äôm not religious btw)

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Humorous Interlude Perhaps: HIP

X: hey! BIP.
Y: whatZ? Beep?
X: BIP. Black Iron Prison
Y: Yeah cool. Black Iron Prison. So what?
X: Let,Äôs roll with that name.
Y: What,Äôs it mean?
X: Who cares.. 
Y: Just say it,Äôs cool then? Right?
X: Yep.
Y: Will anyone get it?
X: Probably not.
Y: Cool.
Z: hey! BIP
Y: Yeah it,Äôs cool right?
Z: I guess so. Yeah.
A: What,Äôs cool?
Z: BIP!
A: Cool. It,Äôs BIP!
A: What is it?
Z: It,Äôs cool.
A: Ok
B: BIP?
Y: Black Iron Prison.
A: Cool right?
B: Yeah BIP is the coolest.
B: What is it?
A: It,Äôs complicated.
B: Srsly?
A: It,Äôs cool.
B: Ok.
C: What are you talking about?
B: I don,Äôt know. It,Äôs cool.
C: Why is it cool?
B: I have no idea.
C: Why claim it,Äôs cool then.
B: Wutz a clam?
X: STFU! C !!!
C: What power!

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Reading the BIP again (I think it takes me about 30 or 40 minutes to read) I still didn't understand what LMNO meant by meta-structure or how BIP could apply to me. The first part of it doesn't ring true with me on many things nor does a lot of the rest of it in a 'that's me right there' way? So I didn't see how a person reading was  supposed to incorporate these ideas into their own organization of reality as LMNO said; one can take some parts of it and leave others be.... I just thought in this way it could become too contradictory to accept as valid.

By "meta structure", I meant that the BIP metaphor is not about what reality "is", but about how we piece together what we eventually call "reality".  Anything (anything) we use to shape or decipher what our senses are telling us is part of the BIP: Xtianity, Hinduism, Scientology... every thought, every experience you have ever had, every emotion, every conversation, they all have a hand in creating your personal BIP.

Can you guess what I,Äôm going to say about this? If it,Äôs everything then
how do you differentiate it from what it,Äôs not? If you can,Äôt make a
distinction then you can,Äôt understand it apart from anything else; including
reality. Everything is everything; is a tautology and tells you nothing about
everything. If it feels, acts, and can,Äôt be differentiated from reality then it
must be reality or at least be treated as reality; such as standing in front of
the moving train would leaves a bloody mess of what used to be the one
standing in front of the train versus imagining for a while that your really
right in there with Neo battling it out with Agent Smith( the Matrix being an movie also accredited to Gnostic thought.  At least by a wikipedia article for whatever that may be worth.-heh) I,Äôll be looking to various sources to get more in depth and hopefully a more accurate understanding of it as my interest allows.

I also get confused (congratulations btw) in the way you explain BIP as a
meta-structure, framework, then just go ahead and add everything else
and this is your BIP? Why call it your BIP at all? Is it a project that has a
particular meaning or specific purpose or is BIP just whatever anyone just
wants it to be? If BIP is everything and anything that anyone cooks up and
calls it BIP or ,Äòtheir BIP,Äô then you can,Äôt distinguish it from what isn,Äôt BIP
absent the phrase. Therefore the concept of BIP becomes meaningless.
There is nothing to contrast it against. No background and no outside of it.
It becomes then too emcompassing to be meaningful and therefore the
mind will reject it in favor of what seems at least to be more meaningful and more valid. Even if it isn't true. In the realm of separating what is real from what is imaginary religion isn't very useful because it's unfalsifiable. Can't be proven to not be true and regardless of how wild the claims may be. Very profound but containing nothing testable; which sounds vaguely familiar in the context of religious claims. So if anyone's reality is validated as being true within the BIP meta-structure (as it were) then basically anything goes!

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ModL. Another HIP Interlude

Hi I,Äôm Joe. In my BIP American Idol is everything! It,Äôs my Black Iron Prison. I
wish I knew more about what,Äôs going on with American Idol to comment on
it intelligently. Best thing about American Idol for me is how I see it as an
almost perfect example of cognitive dissonance at work. You get to see the
contestants and listen to the singing, hear the parents approval, friends
and such alike that have told some folks on there how they ARE the next
A.I. to poop out the shoot at the top of the poops! Reality creeps in and
does it,Äôs thing... but some are seemingly bulletproof to the judges
NO!!!!'s and STOP!!!'s ....  Randy says It,Äôs a no dog... sorry. Absolutely
bloody ridiculous says Simon.. Ghastly! Paula tries to be nice. That,Äôs nice. I
like that show for that certain amount of reality check. Of course they have
some well secret job skills to figure it out but the audience like me doesn,Äôt
have to pretend either. I through a few OMG!! America is totally laughing at
you right now!! I say some stuff out loud to well... my tv and the walls of
my huge PRISON! But really. We all have our songs or singing be whatever
it may be... going for an interview for a job, trying to befriend a stranger,
trying to meet a lady for some companionship, we have and/or are
surrounded at times by the Paula,Äôs, the Randy,Äôs and the Simon,Äôs of the
world. These are my Gods! I know they are there to help me even if it,Äôs
painful sometimes to be judged. I try to keep in mind how I would hate to
be laughed at so much when doing things I thought I was good at like
that. I,Äôm always on camera. Maybe using the toilet and I mess up in there
and miss the toilet. Randy,Äôs up there going... no dog? That,Äôs just not good
enough man. Simon just slaps his forehead in disgust. Paula gives me a
little encouragement to get my aim. Wow! Right? I mean you can get so
much from American Idol I hope others join my Black Iron Prison. Some
deep thought here now. Just think it over. Can we be aware of how our
singing sounds to the Gods. How can a person know enough to know
when it needs some work? When you need to fire your instructor/ coach!
When you just need to get your money back... or even in some cases... It
might just be APPAULING! Do something else! Or well you get the picture.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Also, what do you consider "the first part"?  There's a lot of different stuff in
there.

And what doesn't ring true?

Specifically man I dunno. I can,Äôt repeat enough how I found the writing to be a great read. It,Äôs a whole lot more succinct than I had expected at first glance of the table of contents. I also should mention and this is becoming lengthy so I,Äôll highlight it.

I purposefully didn,Äôt read the library and additional works on the main page such so far but I do plan on doing so.

I wanted to read the BIP as I understand it to be disseminated. Without
the benefit of additional works involved in the ¬ø larger scope of the project?
But like I said I don,Äôt want to dissect and comment on the entire BIP as
written. So when I say a lot didn,Äôt ring true perhaps I,Äôm not the same as
those minded to recognize themselves within it. I,Äôm basically a materialist
(philosophically) but I,Äôm not a materialist (in regards to consumerism). If I,Äôm
not unplugged from the massive herd that is the collective unthinking then
I don,Äôt know who is and therefore at least have given more thought to how
I go about speaking out of my nether regions! So just overall it didn,Äôt get in
depth enough to engage me. However my mind is fully engaged on a
number of things at the moment LMNO. I suspect you are too. I honestly
am trying to figure out what meaning is given behind the effort here as I
understand it as a collective project: Black Iron Prison.

Please note I'm not wanting to do a screaming argument.  It's been a while since I reviewed my peremisis, I'd like to go over it again with you, to see if I missed something.

Noted. I,Äôm good for some short replies and such I'm just on a writing kick for the moment. So I wrote and maybe covered it all in this one. I think it,Äôs (..and of course I would I wrote it) all relevant to the subject at hand here in one way or another.

Also some notes of my own then for further consideration. Within my earlier
reply contains what I consider a useful study ,ÄòUnskilled and Unaware of It,Äô
others in that post may contain irreligious ideas but I don,Äôt mean this to
distract from BIP but to look at the core ideas at play here regarding
existence and reality as well. Statistically speaking the irreligious are the
minority and ideas to question the status quo find themselves dubiously
treading on sacred ground whether they want to or not. So I included links
to explain a position taken of a sort of rational evangelism. The BIP seems
to contain traces of evangelism to me if not overtly in the text
surreptitiously in the appeals to disseminate it.

I've also found epistemological constructivism helpful before and BIP seems
to correlate with some of the ideas found within it; as the active
construction of reality by the perceptions of the mind. Learning isn,Äôt passive
nor is how reality appears to us in our interpretations of it. Therefore the
construction isn,Äôt passive so a person can realize they are actively engaged
in creating their own realities. Sounds familiar in the concepts of Black Iron
Prison as I understand it from your explanations and from PKD's.

- Dags

Perhaps Dags this is why I don't concern myself too hard with conversion, and NEVER with indoctrination. My own awakening came from me by watching, listening and learning. I feel this is where I need to be, and in my mind this is the kind of 'converts' we need. The ones who by their own choice can open their eyes and follow their instincts. If they have to be drug and coerced then it is indeed a weakened society we will be a part of.

By reasoning and being intelligent then you'll have an effect on others without necessarily trying to... have an effect on them. I dunno. Just a thought.

I got nothing from me until I learned to look at myself maybe and some kind of metacognition got involved and it's been a pretty wild trip since then. It took others doing what they do regardless of their reasons for doing it... to do that.

- Dags

[With this I seem to understand the framework better and see how it can be incorporated as that wall of social control bearing down of us all. I can only surmise that many will live and die without looking for it blissfully perhaps but will those leaving the prison yard, ignoring the sign that reads please don't leave, really ruin it for the rest of those inside.]

.... in this case of the BIP, the finger is always pointing back at you. 

Reading the BIP again (I think it takes me about 30 or 40 minutes to read) I still didn't understand what LMNO meant by meta-structure or how BIP could apply to me. The first part of it doesn't ring true with me on many things nor does a lot of the rest of it in a 'that's me right there' way? So I didn't see how a person reading was  supposed to incorporate these ideas into their own organization of reality as LMNO said; one can take some parts of it and leave others be.... I just thought in this way it could become too contradictory to accept as valid. Cluttered is all I could think of.... in regards to my BIP. Lots of info, ideas, pieces and parts, half read books, half thunken thoughts and fully read books with lots and lots lost... or something. In regards to me.

I decided to search the web on black iron prison and see what else I could find on Black Iron Prison and it returns results from a Philip K. Dick novel.  Which makes mentions of some things or another about it but here I found a meta-structure possibly? That might correlate with the Black Iron Prison be it coincidental or not. Which describes it in another way adding to that hints of a rise in fascism and the last attempts to thwart it possibly being too far gone now or something.

From: Tim Bouchers Blog / Pop Occulture
http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/05/29/the-minimum-security-black-iron-prison/

From a Simpson's episode to an excerpt from a nice piece explaining the Philip K. Dick version with a broken link then goes into explaining some of the gnostic concepts behind the prison. Which AFAIK is the original way PKD interpreted it.

The concept is defined in wikipedia as such; VALIS 6.1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VALIS#Black_Iron_Prison

The Black Iron Prison is a concept of an all-pervasive system of social control postulated in the Tractates Cryptica Scriptura, a summary of an unpublished Gnostic exegesis included in VALIS.

:"Everyone who had ever lived was literally surrounded by the iron walls of the prison; they were all inside it and none of them knew it."

Wade Inganamort has an article on Alex Jones website that delves into the concept of social control and incorporates the concept of the Black Iron Prison into his views. Some of the many links work from this article but hardly all of them.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/analysis_inganamort_121702_subdermal.html

With this I seem to understand the framework better and see how it can be incorporated as that wall of social control bearing down of us all. I can only surmise that many will live and die without looking for it blissfully perhaps but will those leaving the prison yard, ignoring the sign that reads please don't leave, really ruin it for the rest of those inside.

It's not a prison if you never try the door.

- Dags

[So I wasn't trying to say that BIP is necessarily about indoctrination, conversion, intervention or even therapy for the masses. Just to say it's there for some reason or is it? or is it? Rev. What's His Name says it's there to enjoy; which sounds good to me. I did enjoy it and found some good twist and turns within it.]

I feel that the BIP model doesn't have to push other beliefs out to make  it's place.  It's more of a meta-structure.  You can be a Christian and still think the BIP is a good idea.  It just makes you understand that your Christianity is a major structural element in your prison, and you can change it if you want to, or not.

Delayed reply on this because it kept becoming too cluttered when trying to explain the why of mentioning christianity. Basically it was meant as an example of where it's giving answers and NOT engaging a persons mental mechanics. It's an old argument about giving answers without supplying the reasoning behind them cropping up I suppose. So one could come to similiar conclusions on their own ie; no coversion,indoctrination, just supplying the argument, reasoning, framework... etcetera.

The link 'unskilled and unaware of it' explains the phenomena in more depth where a person isn't aware of their lack of knowledge in certain domains and neither will they be able to realize it until after that knowledge has somehow found it's way in without being deflected and ignored. Forced awarness perhaps but I dunno. Doubtful because 'that doesn't apply to me', 'your wrong', 'fuck you' or something like that. Persistance of belief won't budge in the face of contradictory evidence and
as per skepdic.com much said in the article about 'true believers'.

So I wasn't trying to say that BIP is necessarily about indoctrination, conversion, intervention or even therapy for the masses. Just to say it's there for some reason or is it? or is it? Rev. What's His Name says it's there to enjoy; which sounds good to me. I did enjoy it and found some good twist and turns within it.

- Dags

I think my BIP is cluttered as fuck right now.

- Dags

this discourse is on that 'ive busted out, but what now?' tip

it is informal

just trying to flush out some ideas about what is the difference between the 'before' and 'after' of a free thinker?

I like the term freethinker. ..  better than bright/ brights? 


...  renewed interest in learning and studying things ...
...  see a lot more irony in what people say including what i say
...  found that being proved wrong is a good way to grow past certain limits of thinking.
.... enjoying the thoughts of others even if they don't agree with my own. 

- Dags

That's a good example then of what I mean. How could you know I've been posting here
off an on since 2005? That doesn't matter though regarding what I'm saying at least to
me it doesn't. What is the truth regarding if I'm a n00b here and such? Is the forum lying
and why trust me. Am I lying about this? To you I'm a perfectly soon to be fucked n00b.
That's great fine and good but is it true? What do you think?

However if BIP is meant to be propagated then it's meant to be propagated for a reason.
I'm glad you brought it up actually and whether it's accusations or not regarding
conversion being something one might ought to do or whatnot. Doesn't matter I can go
all fucking off into a blissful sea of non-sensical jibberish if I want to. It's not very hard to
do. BIP is my focus here however I'm open to suggestions regarding whether or not I'm a
n00b. Says it plain as day don't it.

What I proposed in the first post however here contains information that I feel is dead on.  Schisms aside.

Regarding the propagation of ideas aimed at be it called whatever it may .........
so I'm glad you made your point. I think it's well worth fleshing out if it hasn't already
been done and maybe it needs to be done repeatedly. I dunno and I don't claim to know;
just sayin'.

Fucked if I'll try and post this again since I keep reminding myself I suck at
posting and not editing it too many times or deleting the whole thing somehow. If a mod
wants to un n00b me since I'm past 50 post here feel free I really don't care but it's going
to be shit explaining it 33 more post or something or another. It's interesting though
because I don't really buy into assumptions based on post counts.  Regardless given
enough interest here and enough time I'll snail my way to 50 or more post. I don't care
as long as I don't piss off fluffy get fed to fluffy or or actually damn near anything fluffy
related.-heh

File it under additional options or somethign who knows maybe something tehn.

- Dags

Well I don't know Hawk. I mean indoctrination and conversion are different things. Mainly in the non-critical aspect of blindly leading the blind; so to speak. If you had a choice of the two would you rather be part of a group that favors indoctrination or works at converting people. Maybe like I said to convert people to being more than what they are now?

Mark Twain is known to have said 'Everything has its limit - iron ore cannot be educated into gold.' Since people aren't born with either FE or AU stamped on their foreheads it's not so easy to tell which is what and how far a person can go or even for a person themselves to know the limits of what they can be.

Funny how I couldn't stand it not to say what I did in the little note at the end of the post and your saying when 20 words will do... again makes me feel like you think I've accused you of not giving what I said enough thought. It must just be me in a strange way thinking that. It's all good. Am I the choir or some preacher? Who knows. I must be beyond credulity at this point since I must go I haven't the time to continue this but perhaps there is something said worth reading there if not for you someone else if not for anyone. Nothing drastic.

No fair I wasn't done with my tenth editing of that post yet.-heh

But from a pulpit they do scream and shout and spit and the ears don't seem turned off of it. Who ever heard of a cult leader that didn't stand up and preach it?  What's a church without a pulpit?

If you have never wanted to convert someone to being something more than what they are now what does that say? Conversion isn't necessarily a bad thing per se just that in doing so by force or by authority and such motivated by Extrinsic ( external force applied ) vs. by Intrinsic ( internal psychological pressures usually by way of cognitive dissonance ) you have done a person a disservice by supplying answers when the idea is to motivate a person to follow their own reasoning or arrive at their own answers by way of their own reasoning. Wake up the mechanics of their own mind. You can't expect someone that hasn't developed their abilities to reason to think critically no more than expecting a couch potato to run a marathon? Maybe something like that or something. So fuck?

As you say ' think for themselves ' though one can hardly say they would try and reason with a child that was headways into running out in front of traffic. At least a person with any empathy or moral turpitude. Funny word that one. Anyways.... Instead would use force ( lifting the child up and taking them from harms way ) it's actually a difficult subject to approach for many reasons. Intervention? More to think about.

Also maybe your right. Maybe I said it was bad to convert people and maybe I didn't. I can't however say I haven't wanted to convert people... actually I have converted people. So fuck you know I've done that and maybe worse.

I would disagree and say maybe the fastest way to close someone ears in the context that you've said is to put them on the defensive. Be it any person and I think it's pretty natural and even in some instances a good thing that people go on the defensive. If you've changed worldviews then you realize the psychological pressure involved. It can be maddening and for some leads to suicide. It can be something to witness too!

The persistence of beliefs is in place for a reason you may know them already but I wouldn't expect a person to change their worldviews overnight; practically unheard of... absent force or a well trained deprogrammer I think they are called that helps people escape a cults brainwashing. All pretty interesting shit to me but hell what do I know? Maybe screaming IS the answer.  Alright then. I used the smoking laughing funny hat guy so you know I totally just typed this up real fast. You may see a lot of that. But hey!

What you said sounds good to me. Lots of ways to perceive what someone thinks they said compared to the decoded version response but I hope I don't come across as having any particular answers. Plus as long as it takes me to say... what I get (large amounts of interconnecting data) when thinking about something. I can only imagine a lot of it gets lost in translation and I can probably attribute that to the lengths that I will go to..... to say very little and elaborate way too much.

I haven't a clue what you understand from what I'm saying and I think there is much to learn from the short volume of information contained in the links from that last post. However, from your response it seems you feel I accused you of something... I know it might sound strange but that's what it seemed like? Weird right?

Well I have converted people and if I do so with little or no effort on their part to at least question any of what I say... then they weren't thinking about it too much were they?

Wow. Where does the time go? Think harder. Think until your head hurts and then think some more. What is it about thinking that makes it such an unpopular activity? I think I'll go think about that for a while.

- Dags

note: I put very little thought into this post. Srsly. Check the time stamp.

I'm trying to revisit discordianism in general myself to piece meal together what I'm missing regarding the aims and such whatsoever and ruminating over the unthinking mind.

A link of interest maybe. Unskilled and Unaware of It.  I'd almost rate it as a must read but I guess I'd say
that about a lot of things so don't take my word on it. Check it out if you will.

When I think of the unthinking; It get's perplexing and strange. I don't know why?

In regards to giving people answers? I don't know. Your not getting them to think in this way. Let's say for example; I'm an atheist. I convince a christian to become an atheist too. I just give him answers and he takes them and believes them all lock, stock and barrel. Without giving it much thought; Then I have done him a great disservice. He is no better off now than as a Christian.

He is still accepting blindly what he is told by someone he looks up to, feels is an authority or it just seems fashionable these days to be an Atheist. Poor example I know.. right? Bandwagoners of the world unite!

Well for myself; I wouldn't want to convince an christian to become an atheist. I would however like to encourage a christian to revisit his beliefs and combine that with some critical thinking skills not to become an atheist per se but to use the mind that he believes God gave him. Personally I never aimed at becoming an atheist I just wanted to know the truth about certain things... unfalsifiable things I now realize them to be.

So something like that and not saying BIP does this or doesn't to any extent. Poisoning of the well aside I still maintain my approval of it on the basis of my percieved intentions of it; To get people thinking enough to be able to read damn near anything whatsoever with a questioning mind. Though skepticism taken too far is it's own solipsist nightmare.

As far as scope and purpose being taken into consideration I can only imagine the BIP represents a lot of work by those who have contributed to it. I have thought of doing similiar things in an attempt to unlock some minds but thusfar nothing much. I would however like to point those working on this to the introduction of the skeptic's dictionary which may cover a lot of instances regarding motivation for such things.... intro to the skeptics dictionary   and an oldy but goody at least I think so .... the truth will make you free.

I have however no plans to try and dissect and comment on BIP specifically because I don't feel any need to do so other than to say Fucking Rah! I love the mindfuckery so much... but maybe that's just me and others like me.

A maybe here perhaps but in regards to the prison theme and such I'd like to submit one of Goya's works of art for consideration; age aside I can only doubt copyright involvement though this is a cropped version. Used to be my sig for a while.



Now I must consume pizza. Way too much I haven't even began to read here and enjoy. Just gone for a year is all. Damn. Back... umm.. pizza.

Anywho a note to add regarding people being lazy; without generating enough interest or the expectations of a payoff for time served... so to speak; I wouldn't expect anything less. I would however like to be able to say without producing a defensive posture by those who ' already have ' such dedication. If you get to a point when it's a matter of you sacrificing and being the messiah. Please by all means. Stop and re-evaluate.-heh Don't be a messiah. I have no illusions I won't save the world nor intend to. My eyes are open.
Sounds serious doesn't it. Perhaps it is the most serious thing in the world.-meh

Watch the Donnie Dorko (sic) move and see if you get the meaning of ' I'm starting to doubt your committment to sparkle motion '; man I love that line. So yeah invite me to a convention or something because if the unthinking mind is an enemy of yours then your definitely a friend of mine. So it's the weekend, pizza and drinks, movies and music. Friends, warmth, a full belly, volumes of things unread and undiscovered. What more do I require? I don't think I ask for much here and nothing really. Just perhaps to contribute something before my orbital path takes me away from here. Oh and Fuck Yeah Mantis! I see your still around man. If you ever got that soundcard to work check out the noise I linked in teh Library. Enjoy! and to all a good night.

OK! Everyone take a month's vacation or something. Fuck.  

- Dags

[noise and sound]

It's the weekend. Rah!

Sound: Deprogram

http://www.deprogram.net/

This and that .... haunts me. Something about it I like so
whatever.

Pretty good find this seemingly tiny australian techie girl
putting out tracks. Free mp3's to check out and whatnot.

Into open source sound software using Ardour for Linux and
MacOSX platforms so if you want to check that out for those
making tracks themselves. I have not myself.

http://ardour.org

For more whatever check out Burnstation. Seems to work with
flawlessly with Media Player Classic for me alright.

Media Player Classic found here though you might not need it.

http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=82303

For noise and sound lovers probably more than anyother... maybe
only for them. Srsly!

So a lot of ear noise/candy depending on what you like at here.

http://db.burnstation.org/

Where the ladies at? Female strong sound... Deprogram.

Alright then.

- Dags

This is part of why I registered back in here. BIP. Is this a HIMEOBS OP or what? Combining efforts? Woah.

I ask because of the Johnny Project over in the other thread mentions HIMEOBS. Isn't the power of HIMEOBS in that we don't talk about HIMEOBS?-heh

Where is Fnord? Gone, name changed or name the same, changed user so Fnord is not Fnord but someone else as Fnord then name changed to? What? Maybe I shouldn't ask... anyways.

Impressive effort. I look forward to checking this out as I have time.

- Dags