ok, i just had a very interesting discussion with my girlfriend. i explained her about LHX's origin of the lie -- and even though i still don't know why that concept is so significant or what he was aiming for, it is one hell of a starter for interesting discussions ;-)
she (an astronomy student) is currently following an extra-curricular course about greek mythology (and no, Eris isn't covered in it, they can hardly treat all greek mythology in 12 weeks time ;-) ).
she told me about how the concept of human individuality is only something of the past few centuries, and i think this is a very important concept that deserves to be gone deeper into. she told me that she learned that in ancient Greece people were what other people thought of them, and no more than that. and only in the Renaissance people started actually thinking about themselves, attributing paintings and art to themselves "I made that".
and this is were it gets back to the us/them idea. people get more and more individualistic over time, but this is a self-perpetuating circle. the individualism is bound to make people do things other people won't like, which is when the other people group the one people into groups that roughly do the same thing they don't like, and they distance themselves from them, but those others want to be individualistic so they distance themselves from their peers, and so you get all kinds of scenes and groups splintering until we're all individuals.
maybe this is freedom, but we're all in here together and if we care only about ourselves, we can't properly control/steer this Machine/Wheel that we're all part of and it gets out of control.
there you have it, another solution as another paradox.
freedom is slavery
Wait... How could they prove how people thought about themselves in ancien greece?
And why didn't they apply Aristotles "is of identity" to themselves?
I can see this to a certain degree.
And perhaps the information age can be seen as a double-edged sword in this trend in individualism.
In one sense, the information age has brought together individuals who are spread out geographically but, philosophically are more in common than those in their immediate or "IRL" geography.
At the same time, some people may isolate themselves from the people in their "IRL" geography in favor of being "together" with those in their philosophical geography who are very far away. Thus, reinforcing the individualism in the real world. People not talking face-to-face anymore, etc.
Quote from: LMNO on December 21, 2006, 08:41:15 PMWait... How could they prove how people thought about themselves in ancien greece?
by the way they talk about people in most myths and stories of that time.
QuoteAnd why didn't they apply Aristotles "is of identity" to themselves?
i dunno what that means, but probably because most of the people back then couldn't read and had never heard of Aristotle nor his ideas?
.. but seriously, individuality is something people couldn't quite afford back then. it was only an option for the rich but even they didn't use it much. they also had a job to do for the community, and that was to rule them.
also take pre-renaissance paintings as another example, they weren't signed. they were made for the Church. it was only in the renaissance that art became an expression of individuality.
I'm of the firm opinion* that the very first abstract thought that anyone ever thunk was "I am" That's the dawning of consciousness right there.
*firm opinion = so far I've never heard an argument against. Soon as I hear a good one I'll change it.
what do you mean by "abstract thought"? do you mean a thought that is not "about anything"? because "I am" is definitely about something IMO.
for me, consciousness is self-reference.
if by "abstract thought" you mean self-referential thought, then i kind of follow you.
"I am" is the simplest self-referential thought, though that does not necessarily indicate it would be the first (it would be quite likely though)
.. funny that you come here, because just before she started about individuality we were on the subject of consciousness and self-reference (that a monkey would not be smart enough to think "i caused this to happen because of a mistake in communication"), which i left out.
is individualism a result of not wanting to be a part of other things?
you develop a individual identity when you see foul shit going on as a way to separate yourself from the foulness?
"dont get this one here confused with those ones over there"
Quote from: triple zero on December 21, 2006, 09:34:18 PM
what do you mean by "abstract thought"? do you mean a thought that is not "about anything"? because "I am" is definitely about something IMO.
for me, consciousness is self-reference.
if by "abstract thought" you mean self-referential thought, then i kind of follow you.
"I am" is the simplest self-referential thought, though that does not necessarily indicate it would be the first (it would be quite likely though)
.. funny that you come here, because just before she started about individuality we were on the subject of consciousness and self-reference (that a monkey would not be smart enough to think "i caused this to happen because of a mistake in communication"), which i left out.
What I mean by abstract thought is thought for the sake of thought. Animals think but, according to psychologists they do not do so self consciously. Their brains merely process information then relay responses to the central nervous system. This is what I would call "non-abstract thought" ie. a closed circuit, automatic process. By thinking "I am" we create an layer of abstraction and the rest follows from this foundation.
I'm probably using shit words to describe this but I'm sure you'll get what I mean regardless. Point is I disagree with the OP.
so (just making a few connections from this thread):
what it looks like we have here is one of the foundations for the problems man faces and the individual man faces
we have "I am"
but
"We arent" what we think we are
aka
we arent what we have been led to believe we are
the step from "I am"
to becoming a being with illegitimate fears and unachievable desires is a huge step <--- we arent actually that, but many people have been taught to have illegitimate fears and desire things that dont exist
this type of fear and desire has led to the development of a exaggerated sense of self importance (the tendency is for a person to believe that they are more important than they are, rather than less important than they are - tho both situations do occur)
connections connections connections
The demiurge grew like a tumour on the arse of duality and shat the ego into existence. Bury the whole fucking lot or enjoy it. That choice is all you really have.
Quote from: SillyCybin on December 22, 2006, 01:00:34 AM
The demiurge grew like a tumour on the arse of duality and shat the ego into existence. Bury the whole fucking lot or enjoy it. That choice is all you really have.
i dont buy that kind of certainty anymore
isnt 'explore it' a option?
Well, reality is always going to be a myriad of paradox of sorts, or maybe it isn't, or maybe it is and isn't at the same time. I actually made my own cyber church dedicated to the subject of paradox at one time, but then let it die when I stopped bothering with it, so that doesn't exist anymore, even though it does, and maybe I'll make something of it again someday. ::shrugs:: Individuality and homogeny are two sides of a scale that must be balanced, or the paradoxical scale will tip over and there will be neither (and both).
ok so i've been rolling over the issue a littlebit last night, and maybe i could approach it from another angle.
"think for yourself, schmuck"
is this really such a good idea?
because if everybody would only think for themselves, it would be kinda hard to keep this whole civilisation/society/culture thing going. since it's all rather complicated and we're reaping the benefits of structures that are much larger than ourselves, you have to have cooperation and especially some people to keep a birds-view perspective on things.
now i know what the standard response to this is, so i'm gonna cut it short here: "but if people would REALLY think for themselves, they would take that into account as well, because in the end it is in their interest as well". this approach is called Ethical Egoism in ethics-philosophy (this type of Egoism is also an important concept in satanism, which is partly/kind of where the whole "think for yourself" line came from). now please don't get me wrong with "Egoism" i don't mean anything bad or negative, that's just the name that's given to this type of ethics. it IS in fact one of the most "free" forms of ethics that exist out there (definitely moreso than utilitarianism or Kantianism).
as with most philosophical theories, there is also a whole lot wrong with it, but it may be interesting to explore that another time.
the thing i wonder about, can you really really expect people in general to think for themselves in such a way? as Z3 already said it's easy to slip up. one moment you are, the other you aren't. and we are actually trying.
so is it in any way reasonable to expect people to think for themselves so thoroughly? is this actually possible?
isn't this "thinking for oneself" already going on more and more (as i tried to point out with individualism and history, but as also somebody mentioned in Appletalk as a more recent development), and is it not heading in the wrong direction as well?
what is happening with humanity??? we are heading somewhere. not sure if i'm gonna see it in my lifetime though.
on the one hand it seems we're all splintering apart, and on the other hand we're being grouped by the dozens as cogs in a huge Machine? are we already Sticking Apart? or the wrong way around?
2 things:
1. Are you seriously saying that in ancient Greece, people walked around without a sense of personal identity? I'm not buying it, especially with the argument "because of the way they talked about people in myth."
2. It's not "Think of yourself," it's "think for yourself". That is, question everything, don't rely on appeals to dubious authority, come to your own conclusions. Obviously, some people will come to the same conclusions, and join together.
It's not about a million people creating a million societies, it's about not being controlled, except by yourself.
Thought's should be decided on. Otherwise they are deciding for you. "they" being the thoughts, not the archetypal "them" although maybe that's where that meme came from in the first place.
Quote from: triple zero on December 22, 2006, 09:50:27 AM
ok so i've been rolling over the issue a littlebit last night, and maybe i could approach it from another angle.
"think for yourself, schmuck"
is this really such a good idea?
because if everybody would only think for themselves, it would be kinda hard to keep this whole civilisation/society/culture thing going. since it's all rather complicated and we're reaping the benefits of structures that are much larger than ourselves, you have to have cooperation and especially some people to keep a birds-view perspective on things.
Ditch civilization/society and adapt culture so that we can all live on the planet without fucking it up, which would be the height of self-interest
and interconnection with other people and the rest of the world too.
Quote from: Bhode_Sativa on December 22, 2006, 10:02:17 PM
Quote from: triple zero on December 22, 2006, 09:50:27 AM
ok so i've been rolling over the issue a littlebit last night, and maybe i could approach it from another angle.
"think for yourself, schmuck"
is this really such a good idea?
because if everybody would only think for themselves, it would be kinda hard to keep this whole civilisation/society/culture thing going. since it's all rather complicated and we're reaping the benefits of structures that are much larger than ourselves, you have to have cooperation and especially some people to keep a birds-view perspective on things.
Ditch civilization/society and adapt culture so that we can all live on the planet without fucking it up, which would be the height of self-interest and interconnection with other people and the rest of the world too.
Okay. You go first.
Quote from: Buddhist_Monk_Wannabe on December 23, 2006, 10:20:57 PM
Quote from: Bhode_Sativa on December 22, 2006, 10:02:17 PM
Quote from: triple zero on December 22, 2006, 09:50:27 AM
ok so i've been rolling over the issue a littlebit last night, and maybe i could approach it from another angle.
"think for yourself, schmuck"
is this really such a good idea?
because if everybody would only think for themselves, it would be kinda hard to keep this whole civilisation/society/culture thing going. since it's all rather complicated and we're reaping the benefits of structures that are much larger than ourselves, you have to have cooperation and especially some people to keep a birds-view perspective on things.
Ditch civilization/society and adapt culture so that we can all live on the planet without fucking it up, which would be the height of self-interest and interconnection with other people and the rest of the world too.
Okay. You go first.
Awesome reply!
It's the old easier said than done. Do people realize how hard it is to just be. Lets say I want to leave behind the bullshit of my current society (i'm trying). So I go to live in the woods. I'll build a shack and harvest my own food. Uh oh! Those woods are privatly owned by Ted Turner, and the King dosen't want the surfs killing his deer. In the Modern Fuedal system we live in it is really easier said than done.
I'd ask someone on here for advice, but since we are all using computers, i'm guessing you're just as stuck as I.
Agreed. So, given that talking about it is gonna get us nowhere and action is ultimately going to accomplish much the same, where do we go from here?
Quote from: SillyCybin on December 23, 2006, 10:30:56 PM
Agreed. So, given that talking about it is gonna get us nowhere and action is ultimately going to accomplish much the same, where do we go from here?
go in as deep as we can, understanding that we are gonna get crushed
keep on broadcasting what we find and tactics to keep going further
make the knowledge available to people who are looking for it
go into unknown regions
be intelligent about it
figure out a way to enjoy what you have been taught to be afraid of
do it on your own terms
etc
Good Ideas.
I twisted myself in circles for years with this "unexamined life isn't worth living" buisness. I wasted so much time examining shit that I never had any fun. I still search for better ways, but i'm in it for the laughs. All the learning I get is just a bonus. I'm having some fun and bringing people with me. Nothing to regret here.
I believe in subjective reality. If you're fine with who, what, and where you are, whats the problem?
Quote from: hunter s.durden on December 23, 2006, 10:51:10 PM
I believe in subjective reality. If you're fine with who, what, and where you are, whats the problem?
obstacles
there is fates worse than death currently occurring on this planet
Quote from: hunter s.durden on December 23, 2006, 10:51:10 PM
Good Ideas.
I twisted myself in circles for years with this "unexamined life isn't worth living" buisness. I wasted so much time examining shit that I never had any fun. I still search for better ways, but i'm in it for the laughs. All the learning I get is just a bonus. I'm having some fun and bringing people with me. Nothing to regret here.
I believe in subjective reality. If you're fine with who, what, and where you are, whats the problem?
You, dude, are well on your way to becoming my second favourite person in the whole wide universe!
Quote from: LHX on December 23, 2006, 10:56:36 PM
Quote from: hunter s.durden on December 23, 2006, 10:51:10 PM
I believe in subjective reality. If you're fine with who, what, and where you are, whats the problem?
obstacles
there is fates worse than death currently occurring on this planet
And it seems that there always has been
and always will be
So,
Its best to keep on your toes yo.
weve covered a lot of ground recently...
I'm having a hard time adjusting to the futility of it all. I see people like Thomas Edison, Nikola Tesla, Alexander The Great, Einstein, and many others who really did change the world, and I think "Why shouldn't I try to do what I can? Maybe if I yell loud enough I could change a few minds. If I manage to be in the right place at the right time, what's to stop me from changing something?"
I don't think I'm as smart as those guys, but I'm just not comfortable with giving up. Why not fight until I can't anymore? Yet I get this nagging suspicion that my energy might be better used in other directions, I just haven't figured out what. That's why I come here, to expose my mind to other intelligent people that have a similar view of the world, even if the details differ, in the hopes that I might learn something and/or benefit someone else.
you are told that you are your occupation, your possessions, your reputation. you are not your thoughts or your ideals. you are what you do.
the Idols (ghandi, einstein, buddha, marilyn monroe) are NOT their occupations or their possessions. they get to be defined as their ideals, their beliefs, their actions.
this way, you make yourself incapable of achieving greatness -- not because you cannot for some inherent reason be a great person, but because you must always identify yourself completely outside of the entire framework of definitions you use to identify those who are "great." this is a forced illusion, splitting "who i can be and what i can do" from "who i am now and what i have done."
we are fed this cognitive instruction set that is essentially a complete fabrication. in truth, no one is 'great,' but some get more media coverage for reasons that shift all the time.
I hadn't thought of that. Good call.
You are here to to experience the universe. Enjoy it.
Just saying.
I've been working on my education lately with books about how fucked up the world really is. It's had a negative impact on my enjoyment level, but a positive one on my information about what's really going on. I'll be happy again soon, I just need to adjust.
It's how fucked up the world is that provides the comedy. Picture the cartoon of the guy sitting on the branch of the tree, sawing it off near the bow. It's fun to rant about and get all steamed up over but you gotta take a step back and laugh at yourself suffering otherwise you're just another fucking victim and people like us will be laughing at you, not with you.
Quote from: SillyCybin on December 24, 2006, 12:13:16 PM
but you gotta take a step back and laugh at yourself suffering
thats the jewel right there
its a farce that things could be this bad
once you recognize it, enjoy it while it lasts
because this nonsense doesnt have a long shelf life
a few thousand years is nada