Placid Dingo: Today, I'd like to talk about why compulsorily voting is a good idea.
Squid-Demon: That's ridiculous! Voting makes no difference at all! How does one vote matter?
PD: Well, it doesn't, not as just one vote. But I don't think of my vote as one vote. By taking part in Democracy (and encouraging others to do so), I'm part of sustaining a culture of participation within the democratic system. I influence others to participate, and help spread the cultural message of voting being important; a message which touches more than one person.
SD: But not everyone wants to cast a vote. So why force them?
PD: Firstly, compulsory voting makes it compulsorily to turn up, not to vote. You can draw a dick on your ballot instead of ticking a box if you like. Secondly, if everyone is compelled to vote, the government is compelled to cater to all areas; not just those who traditionally vote, ignoring those that don't.
SD: You think all those people are just going to vote cos you tell them to? That's naive.
PD: It would be naive to think so, but I don't think they'll all vote. I do think that a large number of people will, once a ballot is in front of them, choose to vote. So governments will be compelled to ensure they spread their message to a wider, broader demographic.
SD: But what about people who can't vote? You'll just fine them. That's a whole group of people who are usually busy, poor, disenfranchised, and you're just going to punish them financially.
PD: First, if you have a good excuse for missing the vote, you submit it, and you don't get fined. This could be anything from a car breaking down to a personal crisis. Secondly, there's alternative options, such as postal votes, support in second languages etc. Again, with a compulsorily system, it becomes more important to provide people with these alternative means of voting, as there would be great anger if these options were not provided.
SD: Won't this encourage less politically aware people to vote for some idiot they've never heard of?
PD: Isn't that the current system anyway? Democracy is meant to be the rule of the people, not rule of the handful who could be bothered voting. Again, if you see a whole demographic, racial, geographical or other suddenly voting, you as a politician are compelled to send your message to a broader group of people. Also, instead of putting energy into ensuring people bother to vote, the system can focus on educating people on their voting options and rights and the help they can access.
SD: But what if they have work to do, or kids to look after, or clothes to wash or...
PD: Participating in Democracy is a priority. If you can't vote, well you can't, and there's ways to get around that. But if we actually believe in Democracy, we should do what we can to ensure all citizens have their voice heard.
I always found Australia's compulsory voting interesting, and I'm not quite sure what I think about it. Honestly, I don't know what I'd make of it even if I was an Australian. I suppose at the end of the day, I would oppose it for the same reason that I opposed the rationale of the Iraq War as a war of liberation. You can't force freedom on someone. Freedom has to be a choice, even if, when the polls close, that choice is to not choose. But, what works for Australia works for Australia. And if it helps people become more civically minded, great. But I think it wouldn't work here in the US. We hate being told what to do, even if it's something we would have done anyway.
Quote from: Nephew Twiddleton on September 08, 2012, 06:30:41 AM
I always found Australia's compulsory voting interesting, and I'm not quite sure what I think about it. Honestly, I don't know what I'd make of it even if I was an Australian. I suppose at the end of the day, I would oppose it for the same reason that I opposed the rationale of the Iraq War as a war of liberation. You can't force freedom on someone. Freedom has to be a choice, even if, when the polls close, that choice is to not choose. But, what works for Australia works for Australia. And if it helps people become more civically minded, great. But I think it wouldn't work here in the US. We hate being told what to do, even if it's something we would have done anyway.
It's not about freedom. It's about representation.
Australians complain about it too, it's not like we have some great love of being told what to do. But you know, people bitch about tax too.
Quote from: Placid Dingo on September 08, 2012, 07:05:02 AM
Quote from: Nephew Twiddleton on September 08, 2012, 06:30:41 AM
I always found Australia's compulsory voting interesting, and I'm not quite sure what I think about it. Honestly, I don't know what I'd make of it even if I was an Australian. I suppose at the end of the day, I would oppose it for the same reason that I opposed the rationale of the Iraq War as a war of liberation. You can't force freedom on someone. Freedom has to be a choice, even if, when the polls close, that choice is to not choose. But, what works for Australia works for Australia. And if it helps people become more civically minded, great. But I think it wouldn't work here in the US. We hate being told what to do, even if it's something we would have done anyway.
It's not about freedom. It's about representation.
Australians complain about it too, it's not like we have some great love of being told what to do. But you know, people bitch about tax too.
Fair enough. I guess my point, though is that freedom entails saying, "fuck it I don't care who represents me I'm staying on the couch" and not having to worry about getting a ticket in the process. I'd probably be ok with 100% of registered voters coming out and voting in someone I thought was a borderline psychopath, so long as they had the option to not do so.
Granted, like you said, you can draw a bunch of dicks if you want, but that's still not really a choice unless you have extenuating circumstances.
Personally, I'd probably draw a lot of gay sex in the hopes of horrifying some old ballot counter.
Compulsory voting is a terrible idea. Do you know how many abject morons there are out there? Do you really want them voting? Deciding YOUR FUTURE? I don't. I don't want them deciding anything. I don't want them to have the right to decide what to have for lunch, much less who is going to represent me in government. Half of the fucking "people" out there would literally eat broken glass and metal shards if it came in a box that said "100% less fiber than the leading brand!" And they would recommend it to their dumb friends. Just think of the kinds of trash these assholes would vote for.
Also, think of the bureaucratic nightmare you'd need to establish in order to enforce compulsory voting. You'd have legions of people whose actual job descriptions would be something like "Director of making sure the right number of couch surfing slugs expressed their useless opinion about politics this week." Do you want that? I don't want that.
Seriously, though. It's a bad idea and I don't support it. What I DO support is doing away with elections entirely. They're easy to rig, either by buying votes, or programming voting machines, or just running bullshit on TV for a year until people forget what's true (if they ever knew what's true in the first place). Better than voting would be to make the legislature like a jury. You get a letter in the mail that says "congratulations, you're a Congressman for the next 6 months." Pay people whatever they normally make, plus travel to DC if necessary, and make it illegal for their employers to eliminate their jobs while they're gone. Make the selections completely random, and make it illegal to ever serve more than once.
You'll still get idiots expressing their opinion, but at least it'll be hilarious.
I love that idea. :lulz:
And I'm honestly curious: are there still people who believe in democracy as a means of ruling a nation-state?
Mental note, never vote for Vex.
Quote from: East Coast Hustle on September 08, 2012, 07:40:58 AM
I love that idea. :lulz:
And I'm honestly curious: are there still people who believe in democracy as a means of ruling a nation-state?
A means in comparison to something that works better?
I don't believe democracy is an effective form of government, but given all of the other choices that people have come up with, it's the most preferable.
Like our mutually favorite douchebag once said, "If there's a new way, I'll be the first in line. It better work this time."
A broken clock is right twice a day everyday.
I vote every election.
Now tell me I HAVE to.
It would never occur to me to bother burning a flag.
Now tell me I can't.
I choose not to smoke dope, because I don't really like it.
I hate my government in part because they tell me I'm not allowed to smoke dope.
See how this works?
TGRR,
Chairman of the SHUT UP, YOU'RE NOT THE BOSS OF ME party.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 08, 2012, 07:50:14 AM
I vote every election.
Now tell me I HAVE to.
It would never occur to me to bother burning a flag.
Now tell me I can't.
I choose not to smoke dope, because I don't really like it.
I hate my government in part because they tell me I'm not allowed to smoke dope.
See how this works?
TGRR,
Chairman of the SHUT UP, YOU'RE NOT THE BOSS OF ME party.
True, there's that.
I'd draw dicks.
The thing is, a LOT of people misunderstand the Australian system, I've found.
- If you don't register, you don't have to vote. I know, because I'm not registered. I don't live in Australia, so I don't vote there (I don't vote here either, but that's because my choices are between a war supporting lunatic who thinks we should carry ID cards everywhere and have CCTV installed in our rectums....or the current government).
- You can still spoil your ballot.
Is it a "good" system though? Eh, not especially, but on the other hand it's not noticeably worse than the system in place in the UK or USA. It produces much the same governments, with much the same divides in political ideology, with the two major parties commanding the majority of the vote while minor parties run around cutting deals to pledge their support to one of the Big Two in return for concessions. It doesn't really affect the hegemonic political class in Australia, as things stand.
In Brazil we have compulsory voting. It sucks big time.
While it seems nice on paper, it makes buying votes much easier.
EDIT: Just read Vex post. It was awesome, and I can already see some benefits in this system (like: making elections random would reduce corruption, and how a randomly chosen parliament would better represent the people than the model we have today) XD
I'm not sure how that follows. Vote-buying is normally a consequence of insufficient anonymity and/or a system where certain social leaders can sway the votes of their followers, and are frequently bribed to do so (such as, but not exclusively found in strongly tribal and clan regions).
A keychain and a catchy music is enough to buy votes here. And this is not a hyperbole. We have politics here that were convicted of corrption, and under investigation of crimes like slavery. But they have certain areas where they put a lot of propaganda, usually keychains, catchy musics and giving the population of these areas some money. By doing so, they get this parcel of the population that will ALWAYS vote for them.
Why not skip the middleman...instead of having compulsory voting why not just go with compulsory politics? Have it structured randomly like jury duty. This way we can bypass the two man con all together.
Maybe, though, just as an experiment at first...i mean, things couldn't possibly get any worse, right? :lulz:
...
well just as I typed this, I noticed that both my cousin and a rather intelligent co-worker of mine want's to help get Mitt Romney one million likes on Facebook. :horrormirth: