I've read in numerous places that Kerry and Greg based a lot of Discordia on the Rinzai school of buddhism. I'm not very well read on the subject, so I wanted to collect some information about it ITT. Feel free to chime in with thoughts or info! I'm interested in reinterpreting some of these ideas with our modern take on them.
First, from Encyclopædia Britannica:
One of two major Zen Buddhist sects in Japan; it stresses the abrupt awakening of transcendental wisdom, or enlightenment. Among the methods it practices are shouts (katsu) or blows delivered by the master on the disciple, question-and-answer sessions (mondo), and meditation on paradoxical statements (koan), all intended to accelerate a breakthrough of the normal boundaries of consciousness and to awaken insight that transcends logical distinctions.
Remember Mondos? In the PD they're described as a sort of non-sequitor, a chunk of nonsense which doesn't quite fit into your rational expectations. An example is answering the phone with the phrase "Wrong number please!" I hadn't realized that mondos were specific to rinzai buddhism:
from experiencefestival (http://www.experiencefestival.com/mondo)
Mondo: Related to the Japanese word mondai, meaning to question, mondo may mean the way of the gate (mon), or to the crest (mon). Each of these connotations fits the purpose of mondo. During mondo the master asks questions quickly, and the student must respond quickly. This is done to prevent the student from thinking, to allow intuition to control. Used notably in the Rinzai school.
--the idea of rapid-fire questions that get you to answer intuitively reminds me of this mindfuck sheet from classic Discordiana (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=25558.0)
And here's a description of Rinzai from the mondozen rinzai school (http://www.mondozen.org/about/rinzai_zen_school.htm)
A [Rinzai] practitioner experiences a deeper, clearer insight into the real nature of our minds. As insight develops, the student becomes aware of a deep emptiness within mind that is always present. Within this emptiness, consciousness, thoughts, emotions, and sensations—all activities of mind—are arising and passing away like clouds drifting across this empty sky. Ego confusion arises because we attach to the misguided belief that our ego's dualistic point of view is all that we are. We have learned from our parents and culture to believe this confusion. From this basic ignorance, we unconsciously believe that this conceptual "me," this "figment of divine imagination" is a permanent separate self rather than a temporary perspective, a momentary reference point within the interplay of self-reflecting mind. As our mind becomes more clear and stable, we realize we are also this deeper purity and not just the "thinking that thinks it's a thinker".
QuoteA [Rinzai] practitioner experiences a deeper, clearer insight into the real nature of our minds. As insight develops, the student becomes aware of a deep emptiness within mind that is always present. Within this emptiness, consciousness, thoughts, emotions, and sensations—all activities of mind—are arising and passing away like clouds drifting across this empty sky. Ego confusion arises because we attach to the misguided belief that our ego's dualistic point of view is all that we are. We have learned from our parents and culture to believe this confusion. From this basic ignorance, we unconsciously believe that this conceptual "me," this "figment of divine imagination" is a permanent separate self rather than a temporary perspective, a momentary reference point within the interplay of self-reflecting mind. As our mind becomes more clear and stable, we realize we are also this deeper purity and not just the "thinking that thinks it's a thinker".
This is a nearly universal aspect of Buddhist thought. There are some variations; some schools believe that there is no egotistical self at all, that it is an illusion produced by our attachments. Other schools consider the point moot, since whether the egotistical self is "real" or not doesn't change the fact that you have to get over it to become enlightened.
WARNING I AM VERY TIRED AND ABOUT TO SPEW OUT A BUNCH OF BUDDHIST STUFF I REMEMBER FROM CLASS
YOU HAVE NO CHANCE TO SURVIVE MAKE YOUR TIME
At the end of the day, what pretty much all Buddhism is trying to get at is that the suffering which is always a part of life can only be overcome by getting rid of our attachments to things. At the most basic level, this means detaching from our desires, but many schools of Buddhism go beyond that and teach detachment from ideas and thoughts.
Zen, and particularly Rinzai (as far as my understanding goes), very strongly emphasizes this detachment from ideas and thoughts. Zen monasteries have some of the most mind-boggling practices and they do it that way on purpose. To put it bluntly, the "purpose" of a great deal of what Zen monks practice is to wear you out and blow your mind so hard that you can't ever put it all back together the way it used to be.
Koans are given by the master to the novice monk, and he has 24 hours to meditate on the koan and come back with an answer for the master. Generally this involves the student being told "no, go back and try again" over and over again, possibly getting yelled at or hit with a stick from time to time. This is done until the student gives a satisfactory answer (I don't know what a satisfactory answer to "What is the sound of one hand clapping?" is supposed to be, but I imagine it would sound really dumb or nonsensical to you or I), and then he gets a new koan.
Another Zen practice is called "The Stick of Compassion". A monk walks around quietly while the other monks meditate, holding a broomhandle-like staff in his hand. When he sees a monk nodding off to sleep, he hits him. When a monk seems distracted from his meditation, he hits him. When he feels like it, he hits somebody. I forget what this is supposed to teach, even though I answered a short-essay test question about this very subject about 6 hours ago as of this writing.
One Zen parable goes sort of like this:
A master told his student to meditate on top of a mountain until he could make the mountain disappear.
The student did this, and reported his success to the master.
The master said, "Good. Now bring the mountain back."
The first mountain is one you make disappear by getting rid of your attachment to the idea of "mountain." You recognize that form is emptiness. You then bring the mountain back by allowing yourself to be aware of the distinctions and ideas necessary to interact with the world so that you don't become a vegetable.
First there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is.
I've got more to add later, but I'll expand on the Mountain Koan.
One Zen parable goes sort of like this:
A master told his student to [climb up and] meditate on top of a mountain until he could make the mountain disappear.
The student did this, and reported his success to the master.
The master said, "Good. Now bring the mountain back."
Quote from: Ratatosk on June 30, 2010, 05:39:07 PM
First there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is.
The master's point in this parable is to teach the student that
the word 'mountain' confuses the issue. The issue of The Moment.
Zen, much like surfing, is about training yourself to act efficiently in the moment. Words, as time-binding '3rd-circuit symbols', take you (mentally) away from the current Moment.
The master was presenting an opportunity to the student in 'telling him to go climb a mountain until it wasn't a mountain anymore'.
The student realized that WHILE BEING CLIMBED it wasn't 'a mountain', i.e. a thing, a concept out there hanging in space to be studied intellectualized over. It was a process, a challenge, a component of the universe in flux... specifically when it has become a Change In Viewpoint.
When you're at the bottom, it seem like 'a whole thing' that you can neatly tuck under a label.
While you're climbing it you realize that no label will suffice to completely describe it. It is a series of go-around-this, climb-over-that, scale-this-wall, hop-over that-stream, plan-route-up-that-valley... a process.
MOAR LATERZ
Koans are cool.
Perhaps I'm ignorant... But I've been reading this stuff for years, and I've also read a little bit of other Buddhist stuff... To me, Zen as a whole seems like the shortcut that isn't a shortcut.
Then again, I haven't really taken the time to understand a single case... I've read it over several times, enough to get a pang of some kind of understanding, but I've not really "gotten it", I don't think... Reason being, I thought I understood "the Gateless Barrier" years ago, I was on meds at the time, but really, it was more like a kind of "mu sickness" described somewhere in either the beginning or end of the book.
I've been studying the "Blue Cliff Record", the Thomas Cleary translation, for the past few years. I progress slowly with it, sometimes putting it down entirely in order to replenish my energy by reading something more entertaining. When I feel like I slightly hit on something, I move on, I can tell I'll already have to start over from the beginning, so I may as well hit each case until I feel that same thing, then start over. It takes a while to recharge my batteries... But it seems like something is starting to make sense...
I see it as a sudoku puzzle without a grid or numbers... It's going to make sense one day, if I get enough time, it's just a question of when. I hope I'll get it the next time through, but that would be highly fortunate, so, probably pretty fucking unlikely... Almost all of the koans seem to strike some chord, but at the same time, they're so far off that I don't even know where to begin searching. I'll likely have to read it about 4 or 5 times, and the book is freaking big and nonsensical...
I wouldn't keep at it if they struck me as utter stupidity, but they don't... Something in me sees and feels something when reading these koans, it's just so mysterious and far away. I haven't even begun to understand them, but I can see that there is value.
EDIT: Cainad? You took some sort of college class on this stuff? You must've been some kind of masochist... Was the teacher someone who actually "got it"? Was the teacher a monk? I'm not going to criticize the class, but I have my doubts... I don't think a semester in Zen is going to teach anyone jack shit... Then again, never been the college type here, all my friends went to college, but at this point, it's not such a moneymaking venture, so, is kind of unproductive in that regard, just, well, does it make you smarter? I've heard it teaches people a lot of things, and instills a sense of urgency in self-education much like infantry basic training will instill a sense of urgency in physical movement, teaching a number of concepts on the way, but I must say that higher education confuses me...
Seems like one should be interested enough to study on their own, and, if stupid sites would stop restricting their access to all but top universities, I'd have access to things I'd like to study as well, found a whole page with brain related articles today, most of them were locked off... This is why I'm really ticked off about the institution trying to control the web, it's an old system of commerce flailing desperately to stay alive in a new sea of possibility... The sonny bono act (fuck you, sonny, just for having your name on that) was retarded, we have all sorts of copyright extensions, paid for by lobbyists who seek to extend the amount of money their corporation can extract from the global market...
I see potential disaster here. I'm also drunk and should shut up immediately. Thanks for listening.
EDIT EDIT: Cainad, I'd assume the sound of one hand clapping is slapping the dogpiss out of someone... Though there is that koan about groping for a pillow in the dark, there are eyes and hands all over the body. Assuming any of that crap is true, the sound of one hand clapping is two hands clapping, one hand claps, one hand claps, they didn't say only one hand clapping, just one hand.
QuoteEDIT: Cainad? You took some sort of college class on this stuff? You must've been some kind of masochist... Was the teacher someone who actually "got it"? Was the teacher a monk? I'm not going to criticize the class, but I have my doubts... I don't think a semester in Zen is going to teach anyone jack shit... Then again, never been the college type here, all my friends went to college, but at this point, it's not such a moneymaking venture, so, is kind of unproductive in that regard, just, well, does it make you smarter? I've heard it teaches people a lot of things, and instills a sense of urgency in self-education much like infantry basic training will instill a sense of urgency in physical movement, teaching a number of concepts on the way, but I must say that higher education confuses me...
No, and the point of the class isn't to "get it" or become an enlightened Buddhist. If that was the point, it wouldn't be RLS 260: Buddhism, it would be Buddhist Sunday School or whatever. The class was about looking at many different sects of Buddhism (not just Zen) historically, not about trying to be Buddhist.
I'd agree that you can't "get" Zen through a class, and a Zen monk would almost definitely agree... they wouldn't have monasteries and people who devote their lives to the grueling Zen practices if you could get it in a few classes.
Zen as a shortcut that isn't a shortcut is an interesting idea though... Zen espouses a notion of sudden, unanticipated enlightenment. You have to practice jiriki (self-power) and discipline to get there, but the reason it's sudden and not gradual is that if it was gradual, it would mean you already had a good idea of what enlightenment was and could work steadily towards that goal. That, from a Zen perspective, would qualify as an attachment, so it wouldn't work that way.
P.S. Consider drinking less, dude. You're clearly a smart guy with worthwhile things to say, but it'd be nice if you could post without having to constantly apologize for being wasted every day. Just a friendly suggestion.
Quote from: Cainad on July 02, 2010, 09:16:23 PM
P.S. Consider drinking less, dude. You're clearly a smart guy with worthwhile things to say, but it'd be nice if you could post without having to constantly apologize for being wasted every day. Just a friendly suggestion.
I'm considering it... Thanks for the compliment. I could always go without apologizing, but that could have unpleasant consequences. I'm actually drinking less than I used to, I probably should consider not drinking at all. I get the impression that I owe you another apology here, possibly, I'll let you know when I figure out whether or not I do (it's not always apparent to me). My previous statement, the edited part, was composed while slightly intoxicated, and may have been slightly offensive, I don't know, though it doesn't seem too bad, just a bit of ignorant and pointless rambling.
I can see how the concept of sudden enlightenment makes sense from that standpoint, being free of attachments, which means I might very well be wasting my time with this first read-through of the Blue Cliff Record, and, indeed, anything I've read about Buddhism in general... But I'm not so certain that Zen is without its flaws. Realization through a lack of attachments is all good and well, but in the end, it strikes me as an attachment... Maybe that's because I just don't get it.
So, is it wrong to read each case until it starts to seem to make sense and move on? In an earlier post the process was described as having a monk study a single case until they could provide an acceptable answer... As I have no one to provide an acceptable answer to, save myself, who is a bit of a harsh critic but still often doesn't know what he's talking about, I'm not so sure it really matters, I'm just going to botch the meaning anyway. Still not going to stop me from trying to educate myself on the matter.
Quote from: Fujikoma on July 02, 2010, 10:44:06 PM
So, is it wrong to read each case until it starts to seem to make sense and move on? In an earlier post the process was described as having a monk study a single case until they could provide an acceptable answer... As I have no one to provide an acceptable answer to, save myself, who is a bit of a harsh critic but still often doesn't know what he's talking about, I'm not so sure it really matters, I'm just going to botch the meaning anyway. Still not going to stop me from trying to educate myself on the matter.
Yes, based on the way a koan is supposed to work. Thought and reason are attachments; trying to come up with a rational answer to a koan, like this:
QuoteEDIT EDIT: Cainad, I'd assume the sound of one hand clapping is slapping the dogpiss out of someone...
would probably not be accepted by the roshi, who would either dismiss you, or maybe yell at you. Or maybe hit you with a stick. The idea is not to analyze and dissect the koan until you can resolve the contradiction rationally. To do that violates the whole purpose of the koan.
QuoteRealization through a lack of attachments is all good and well, but in the end, it strikes me as an attachment...
That could be said of all Buddhism, not just Zen. That's why enlightenment is sometimes also called "Emptiness", to distinguish it from the idea of a "realization", which implies an idea that one grasps.
I don't know, in the Blue Cliff Record, there's a lot of slapping people, striking people and breaking of stuff going on. While I really wouldn't want to hit someone, I really wouldn't have any other idea what to do about that, other than just clap, or maybe shout, but those have all been done before, and could be seen as an attachment to the old stories... "He speaks the living word, not the dead word." or something like that... I also don't think that merely being silly with something completely unrelated would be acceptable, like walking away backwards, but, I mean, do they just hit people with a stick till their arm gets tired and then say to move on to the next koan? I'm guessing not, because I do get the impression that there is something significant there.
It seems to me that the underlying message is: these realizations cannot be expressed in words, and so cannot be thought of in words, which, well, a lot of people I've talked to about their thoughts (which isn't a lot of people) have told me that they think in written word, spoken word, visualizations, I'm guessing the point is to leave those attachments behind. The version of the Blue Cliff Record that I have is constantly badgering on about every possible rational explanation, saying it's wrong, kind of makes things confusing, but I'm thinking it helps make the point that one should not to get distracted by an endless classification of ideas.
I can understand trying to break down the rational thought process... True/false reasoning sometimes irritates me, considering we have all this awesome wetware at our disposal, I find thinking in patterns that resemble binary to be practical in many situations, but not really my thing... The whole dualistic mindset, good/bad, law/chaos, cause/effect, I can really see how they're all useful to everyday life, as well as science, but I find that if I get too hung up on that I can make some seriously bad assumptions because I'm always trying to pigeonhole something into one bin or the other and may miss some crucial aspect I would have noticed had I not been so busy trying to sort everything.
I seem to remember reading an introductory book to the chaos theory many years ago, which stated that deterministic logic is extremely effective, until the problem exceeds a two body problem, at which point deterministic logic fails, whatever that means... Though, all problems have more than 2 interacting factors... I suppose that is why they test things in a laboratory environment, to remove as many interfering factors as possible. This would mean, for the most part, in everyday life that deterministic logic is impractical (aside from that which may have already been determined in a controlled environment being useful information to take into account), and perhaps even detrimental. Maybe I'm assuming too much here?
Same thing with thinking in words. I do this sometimes, for example, when I'm making a post (though I'm not always sure what word I'm going to type next, it just sort of spills out onto the page, usually), but I find I do my best thinking when not thinking, as paradoxical as it may sound. I didn't write this post straight through, I circled back and edited it a few times. I can only hope I did a decent job.
I've had to let many things go over the course of my life. I've never really had a sense of permanence as far as anything is concerned, and I've spent a lot of time simply trying to regulate the constant impulse to panic. I've let go of a number of attachments, but likely not anywhere near enough.
One last thing, about emptiness... I think I recall reading that stopping at emptiness is a mistake. Maybe that was their idea of a practical joke to put that in there? Or perhaps it's something I'm not recalling correctly.
EDIT: Though I say dualistic thinking is not really my thing, I'm sure you could find a few posts of mine quite easily where I've done just that kind of thinking. It's something I try to avoid, but I sometimes surprise myself.
I like this Fujikoma person.
I'm extremely terrible at picking out sarcasm, so, if you're being sarcastic, please, just let me know... :p... Especially text format, that's one of the worst ways to communicate, IMO.
If you're being genuine, Nigel, thank you... I hope it isn't all one big joke at my expense, a little dense here at times.
I'm not being sarcastic! You think, and you write... good combination, in my book, even if I don't always agree with your conclusions.
Awesome! Sorry to question you... I'm just too used to... Terrible social instances caused by failure to recognize sarcasm. Thanks for confirming. And I don't mind in the slightest when someone reaches a different conclusion than I do, it's another opportunity for growth in my book.
See? there ya go. Why I like you.
... Nigel, making me feel all warm and squishy inside is something I'd advise against, you might feel bad about it later... But thanks a lot, I needed that. Now... It's just a matter of waiting for one of these guys to school me on where I've gone wrong with zen, which is another thing I need, and by need, I mean, I really freaking need some input, this crap is far too mysterious for me to make sense of without some correction, and I can't think of a better place to find it.
Still... Thanks a LOT.
Fujikoma,
Have you actually practiced any of the body/breath techniques from the teachings?
(btw, if I were in a 'master', i.e. koan giver, role and gave you the one hand clapping koan I would approve of any spontaneous sound you make with the hand. If I see you intellectualize over it, even for a moment, you fail and have to keep the koan.. even if the physical actions/sounds are the 'same'. Wanna know how I could tell?)
Many of these koans require familiarity with the culture they were written in, so paradoxically, to have enough data to achieve that !!! moment from them usually requires intellectually devouring related source material and then integrating (sitting on it) for a while, then re-reading the koan.
I use Joshu's 'Mu' koan as an example. In the dialect it was written in, he shouted 'WU!' It's the same ideogram, but Joshu chose to bark like a dog _and_ answer the student's question's with "Wu/Mu-negation". That beautiful moment when Joshu realized that he could bark like a dog, and still accurately answer the student's short-sighted question about whether 'dogs have the Buddha-nature' led to the spontaneous exclamation of WU!
I have a tentative grasp on the Zen BS (belief system), so let's start with the Blue Cliff record. Which koan interests you at the moment? (I make no claim to familiarity with all of them... :wink:)
Thanks for your answer. Yes, I see how they seem to dislike people stopping to think, even for a second... But if the reply were thought out beforehand, it could be enacted instantaneously... Still, a slight lack of confidence in the answer may be indicative of something.
As far as meditation, I don't do it frequently... Who was it who said that everyday activity is a form of meditation?... Anyway, I've had a slight bit of training in Zazen meditation, it was one of the many classes offered at an Aikido dojo I used to go to a long time ago... I won't say I'm great (or even half-decent) with meditation, although I can see how it's important, every time I think of it I still keep thinking of the thing about polishing a floor tile until it's a mirror.
For a while, for reasons I can't describe, I found Pai Chiang's fox koan rather interesting. Now, I find a whole bunch of them interesting, it's hard to pull one off the top of my head... "A mud Buddha does not pass through water, A gold Buddha does not pass through the furnace, A wood Buddha does not pass through the fire." (Chao Chou's three turning words), The Surangama's scripture on not seeing, The one about the seamless monument... There are a lot of other ones. I'm already pretty sure I'll have to read it several more times.
I'd actually like to know your thoughts on the sixth patriarch, I think it was, the one who was forced to flee with the robe and all that stuff.
QuoteAmong the methods it practices are shouts (katsu) or blows delivered by the master on the disciple, question-and-answer sessions (mondo)
This reminds me a lot of the PDcom noob treatment. Mixing abuse and interrogation with enlightenment.
Just a thought.
Quote from: Sigmatic on July 04, 2010, 09:03:38 PM
QuoteAmong the methods it practices are shouts (katsu) or blows delivered by the master on the disciple, question-and-answer sessions (mondo)
This reminds me a lot of the PDcom noob treatment. Mixing abuse and interrogation with enlightenment.
Just a thought.
:lol:
I'll check back after the holyday. BOOM!
me posts here for sticky cause intersecting preempts need of forging wiki :lulz:
am working on similar project, not specifically rinzai, however ;-))
obligation obliges the way to do its work ;-)
Rinzai, from what a superficial reading of this thread may allow, seems to focus on "immediate" enlightenment. I think this means it works for people for whom the idea of gradual enlightenment does not make sense. Its funny how the focus is on "striking", either physically or mentally, to reflect the extemporaneous act. Having submitted myself to this, and demanding an explanation for the "tough-love" thing, the best I could gather is that the perceived hypocrisy of acting on a causal-deterministic model to effect something "immediately" is only part of the problem.
Back to the answer, though, the point is that in the moment of panic there is a greater chance for enlightenment. The teacher strikes when he realizes you slipped out of zazen and into daydreaming 1) for conditioning 2) because that panic, not knowing where "the strike" came from, might just let you go and "get it".
Really, just an explanation for my own mediated reactions.
I'll agree with point one on the Zazen classes I took. The sensei seemed to have this uncanny knack for knowing when I was daydreaming, maybe I'd start making weird facial expressions?.. As far as "getting it", I'm pretty sure he didn't expect me to just "get it", though I could be wrong.
or you could be right? Just getting it sometimes does not seem to be enough...
I'm stumped on that one. Truth be told, I don't expect to ever really get it.
I wonder if its something we have in the first place?
That's what what I've read would seem to imply.
recitation, repetition, recognition (and fold ;-)
there is a complexity and also a simplicity we seem to avert...
when I get lost in thought, I was already there?
Yup.
How?
A wizard did it.
let me know how that works for you :D
Quote from: Fujikoma on July 06, 2010, 08:13:51 AM
A wizard did it.
The one that made the grass green?
(http://www.woostercollective.com/givdav.jpg)
Quote from: minuspace on July 06, 2010, 07:06:23 AM
Rinzai, from what a superficial reading of this thread may allow, seems to focus on "immediate" enlightenment. I think this means it works for people for whom the idea of gradual enlightenment does not make sense. Its funny how the focus is on "striking", either physically or mentally, to reflect the extemporaneous act. Having submitted myself to this, and demanding an explanation for the "tough-love" thing, the best I could gather is that the perceived hypocrisy of acting on a causal-deterministic model to effect something "immediately" is only part of the problem.
(pretend for a second you've never seen this illusion before...)
(http://brainden.com/images/goblet.gif)
Is this a picture of two faces, or a goblet?
whatever your answer,
was it something that you came to gradually, or was it a sudden flash of understanding?
I think the types of truths contained in zen are not things that you learn gradually, chapter by chapter.
They're things you think about and focus on until something shifts and it suddenly makes sense -- sort of like discovering the hidden picture in a magic eye. It's not like understanding something like human psychology, which is a gradual ongoing lifelong process.
Check out this clip from the movie I Heart Huckabees, in which two students flirt with enlightenment by hitting themselves in the face - "Pure Being (http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=IgeGd6IzPtA&feature=related)".
i was actually looking for a picture of the pure being ball thing to post, but google failed me... :sad: (except for one tiny crappy image)
that movie was fantestic.
This makes sense, Cramulus. I remember spending weeks staring at this grainy picture in this book called "Buddhism Now", trying to figure out what it was. I got so frustrated that I called the friend who lent it to me and said "WHAT THE HELL IS THIS THING SUPPOSED TO BE?!? I CAN'T FREAKING SEE IT!" to which he replied "I could tell you, but you still wouldn't see it, so there's no reason for me to tell you, just keep looking at it.", so I went a few more days and called him again. He told me it was a cow, I still didn't see it, I thought he was messing with my head...
Finally, one day, out of the blue, FREAKING COW, or, more accurately, a steer. I spent so much time looking at it wrong that I just couldn't get it, and then when I did I was kind of underwhelmed, but also quite happy that I'd finally seen it. The magic eye posters, a little trick, if you cross your eyes and allow them to slowly uncross, they will fix on the image in the poster. If you can't cross your eyes on your own, place your fingertip on the bridge of your nose and watch it as you pull it away slowly. The finger may block the picture, though.
Members of the Japanese Embassy, photographed on their trip to America in 1860.
(http://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/NY-AH818_NYSAMU_G_20100627172752.jpg)
In 1853, U.S. Commodore Matthew Perry steered his smoke-belching steamship into the Bay of Edo (today's Tokyo), terrorizing the Japanese citizenry and forcing the Tokugawa government to end 200 years of almost complete isolation. In the process, Adm. Perry and the U.S. consul he left behind further weakened a government battling famine and growing political opposition. As the U.S. established more formal relations, criticism of the shoguns grew. "Shogun" means "barbarian-subduing generalissimo," yet those very barbarians were now calling the shots.
Amid this turmoil, a Japanese delegation sailed to America to present the recently signed U.S.-Japan Treaty of Amity and Commerce to President Buchanan. They arrived in San Francisco on March 29, 1860, for a three-month tour that ended with two weeks in New York. That visit is the focus of "Samurai in New York," a new show at the Museum of the City of New York that uses photographs, newspaper clippings, personal belongings and a handful of artworks to commemorate its 150th anniversary.
Samurai in New York
Museum of the City of New York
1220 Fifth Ave., (212) 534-1672
Through Oct. 11
Two thick lines—one red, the other black—slash across the white wall of the introductory display at irregular angles, imbuing this otherwise airy space with a subtle tension. There, in a central display case, is the curving blade of a beautiful but lethally sharp Japanese sword, a gift to the U.S. Navy.
Foreshadowing aside, the effect is not as dramatic as it might seem: The show's presentation is unassuming and its content requires careful reading for the tensions to emerge.
The sword forms part of an introduction that includes reproductions from Frank Leslie's Illustrated Weekly, an excerpt from Walt Whitman's poem "The Errand Bearers," and a bronze medal given as a commemorative gift. The message is clear: The growing tensions that were driving the U.S. toward the Civil War may have quickly superseded the Japanese visit in New Yorkers' consciousness, but at the time it was a big deal.
Big enough, as the next section shows, that famous photographers like Mathew Brady courted the Japanese delegates. Big enough, as the display of cartes de visites and stereoscopic photographs demonstrates, that New Yorkers flocked to buy images of men in kimonos against painted backdrops of palm trees.
While the three principals claim center stage in the official photographs, other images feature members of the delegation whose identities have been lost. Contrary to American expectations, these were not high-ranking members of the shogunate. In fact, most were in their 20s and 30s and under strict orders not to take any initiative. Reluctant to leave the Metropolitan Hotel, they visited such places as a naval shipyard, a rubber factory, schools and hospitals only at the Americans' insistence.
As a result, the envoys often chronicled life inside the hotel—one photogravure shows them clustered around laundresses using a sewing machine or ironing, the former something new and strange to them. Some, however, displayed increasing curiosity. In his diary, displayed here, Somo Kato recorded sketches of steamboats and cannons—a reminder that Japan was keen to catch up to a more technologically advanced West. Tateishi Onojiro, nicknamed "Tommy," collected female admiration. A darling of the U.S. press, he was only 18 and, says curator Kathleen Benson, alone among the envoys to wave and blow kisses to the crowds.
Each side harbored different aims and experienced different frustrations. For the Japanese, the visit was primarily ceremonial: A photogravure of a ball given in their honor shows the Japanese standing at the back of the room as though waiting for their hosts to stop partying and engage in a proper, sober ritual.
For the Americans, the celebrations were tied to commerce. A silver service presented to Adm. Perry by New York merchants grateful for the opening of Japan is displayed next to a facsimile of the treaty and just ahead of some photogravures and photographs recording the lavish horse-drawn cart that paraded the treaty up Broadway. One reads in the Japanese flags shown in the windows excitement at the prospect of profitable trade.
As the show progresses, ambivalent attitudes, particularly on the American side, become more apparent. A song sheet's lyrics mock the visitors with racial epithets, while a case with Japanese artifacts and Japanese-inspired Tiffany objects expresses a deep and lasting appreciation of their art. Similarly, while some questioned the wisdom of entertaining the Japanese so lavishly, others pointed to their "munificence" and "superb presents."
A New York Times quote stenciled on the wall, meanwhile, expressed the cynicism of many. Yes, the Japanese were buying "dry goods, hardware, firearms, jewelry, glassware, optical instruments and innumerable other evidences of our ingenuity and art—doubtless when our commerce with Japan is fully open, to be returned to us in the shape of duplicate imitations and improvements."
Quote from: Fujikoma on July 06, 2010, 09:51:12 PM
For once, Doktor Howl isn't jumping MY ass (I know, exaggeration, and I deserved it)...
Yeah, the Japanese were a bit brutal... Thomas Cleary spoke in an interview about how people need to always beware Japanese militarism, and read up on things in order to know their potential enemy... Or at least, that's the gist of it I remember, I'm not going to read it for a third time for a bit yet.
http://www.sonshi.com/cleary.html
Whoops! Caught you right before the thread split.
Difference is, Fuji, you usually post intelligent shit that I may disagree with (more for the sake of threadjacking than of content).
i was enjoying reading this thread.. the cat is cute, but its not necessary
this may not work
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 06, 2010, 09:52:38 PM
Whoops! Caught you right before the thread split.
Difference is, Fuji, you usually post intelligent shit that I may disagree with (more for the sake of threadjacking than of content).
LMAO
Well, thanks for the compliment, and sorry for thread jacking, it's a bit of a bad habit. I noticed the thread split and reposted my comment there.
http://books.google.com/books?id=VIYREaBbOUYC&lpg=PA117&ots=LBsQbo6w6B&dq=rinzai%20koan&pg=PA119#v=onepage&q=rinzai%20koan&f=false
The Nature of the Rinzai (LINJI) Koan Practice - Victor Sogen Hori[
I'm only typing out this selection. -Tel]
p118
The koan practice is first and foremost a religious practice, undertaken primarily not in order to solve a riddle, not to perfect the spontaneous performance of some skill, not to learn a new form of linguistic expression, not to play cultural politics, and not to carry on scholarship. Such ingredients may certainly be involved, but they are always subservient to the traditional Buddhist goals of awakened wisdom and selfless compassion.
In saying this, I am making a normative statement, not a description of fact. The fact is, in most Rinzai monasteries today, many of the monks engage in meditation and koan practice for a mere two or three years in order to qualify for the status of Jushoku (resident priest). For many of them, engagement with the koan may indeed consist in a little more than the practice of solving riddles and learning a ritualized language, a fraction of the full practice. In the full practice the Zen practitioner must bring to the engagement the three necessities of the Great Root of Faith, the Great Ball of Doubt, and the Great Overpowering Will (daishinkon, daigidan, daifunshi). The koan is an artificial problem given by a teacher toa student with the aim of precipitating a genuine religious crisis that involves all the human faculties -- intellect, emotion, and will.
At first, one's efforts and attention are focused on the koan. When it cannot be solved (one soon learns that there is no simple "right answer"), doubt sets in. Ordinary doubt is directed at some external object such as the koan itself or the teacher, but when it has been directed back to one-self, it is transformed into Great Doubt. To carry on relentlessly this act of self-doubt, one needs the Great Root of Faith. Ordinarily, faith and doubt are related to one another in inverse proportion: where faith is strong, doubt is weak, and vice versa. But in Zen practic, the greater the doubt, the greater the faith. Great Faith and Great Doubt are two aspects of the same mind of awakening (bodaishin). The Great Overpowering Will is needed to surmount all obstacles along the way. Since doubt is focused on oneself, no matter how strong, wily, and resourceful one is in facing the opponent, that opponent (oneself) is always just as strong, wily, and resourceful in resisting. When self doubt has grown to the point that one is totally consumed by it, the usual operations of mind cease. The mind of total self-doubt no longer classifies intellectually, no longer arises in anger or sorrow, no longer exerts itself as will and ego. This is the state that Hakuin described as akin to being frozen in a great crystal:
QuoteSuddenly a great doubt manifested itself before me. It was as though I were frozen solid in the midst of an ice sheet extending tens of thousands of miles. A purity filled my breast and I could neither go forward or retreat. To all intents and purposes I was out of my mind and the Mu alone remained. Although I sat in the Lecture Hall and listened to the Master's lecture, it was as though I were hearing from a distance outside the hall. At times, I felt as thought I were floating through the air. (Orategama III, Yampolsky 1971, 118)
In this state, Hakuin happened one day to hear the temple bell ring. At that moment the ice shattered and he was thrust back into the world. In this experience, called the Great Death (daishi ichiban), the self-doubt is finally extinguished and the Great Doubt is transformed into Great Awakening. As Ta-hui says, "Beneath the Great Doubt, always there is a great awakening."
Kensho, the experience of awakening, is more than merely the state of concentrated Samadhi [
Which I have flirted with -Tel]. When the Great Doubt has totally taken over the self, there is no more distinction between self and other, subject and object. There is no more differentiation, no more attachment. This is merely samadhi and not kensho. Kensho is not the self's withdrawal from the conventional world, but rather the 'selfless self' breaking back into the conventional world. It is only when this samadhi has been shattered that a new self arises. This self returns and again sees the things of the world as objects, now as empty objects; it again thinks in differentiated categories and feels attachment, but now with insight into their emptiness.
Again, I am speaking in normative terms. The particular aspects of Zen kian practice on which scholars have concentrated their attentions -- it's nondual epistemology, its ritual and performance, its language, its politics -- are aspects. There are facets of a practice whose fundamental core is a religious practice.
Koan: Instrument or Realization Most commentators take the approach that the koan is an upaya, an instrument, that deliberately poses a problem unsolvable by the rational mind in order to drive the mind beyond the limits of rationality and intellectual cognition. This approach views the koan as a psychological technique cunningly designed to cause the rational and intellectual functions of mind to self-destruct, thus liberating the mind to the vast realm of the nonrational and the intuitive. Powerful personal accounts of spiritual quest make it seem that the koan is not a text to be studied for it's meaning as one would study an essay or a poem, but rather an existential explosive device with language merely serving as the fuse [
MEMEBOMBS! -Tel]
Part of the problem with many such instrumentalist approaches is that it deprives the koan itself of meaning. The koan, it is said, cannot be understood intellectually; it gives the appearance of being meaningful only to seduce the meaning-seeking mind to engage with it (Rosemont 1970). This interpretation ignores the mass of evidence contradicting the idea that the koan is no more than a meaningless, blunt psychological instrument. It is hard to think that the shelves of heavy volumes of koan commentary produced through the centuries and the lectures in which Zen teachers expound at length on the koan are all occupied with a technique that is in itself nonsense. It is much more sensible to begin from the assumption that the koan disclose their own meaning (though not necessarily an intellectual one), once they have been properly understood.
A second difficulty is that in trying to demonstrate how the koan overcomes the dualisms and false dichotomies created by the conventional mind, the instrumental approach introduces dualism and dichotomy back into the picture again. The awakened mind, it is said, has transcended the dualistic dichotomizing of conventional mind and resided in a state of nonduality. The awakened person is thus freer than the average person in being able to choose to act either in the conventional dualistic way or in the awakened nondual way. But the dichotomy between duality and nonduality, conventional thinking and awakened mind, is itself a duality. [
Based on this assumption... - Tel]Rather than being free from dualistic thinking, the 'awakened mind' ends up more tightly locked into dualistic thinking, incessantly forced to choose between being conventional or being awakened.
A much better way of approaching the koan is by way of the "realization" model, a term I have borrowed from Hee-jin Kim (1985). The practitioner does not solve the koan by grasping intellectually the meaning of "the sound of one hand" or "original face before father and mother were born." Rather, in the crisis of self-doubt referred to above, one experiences the koan not as an object standing before the mind that investigates it, but as the seeking mind itself. As long as consciousness and koan oppose each other as subject and object, there are still two hands clapping, mother and father have already been born. But when the koan has overwhelmed the mind so that it[
the koan -Tel] is no longer the object but the seeking subject itself, subject and object are no longer two. This is "one hand clapping", the point "before father and mother have been born." This entails a "realization" in two senses of the term. By making real, i.e., by actually
becoming an example of the nonduality of subject and object, the practitioner also realizes, i.e., cognitively understands, the koan. The realization of 'understanding' depends on the realization of 'making actual'.
This realizational account of the koan solves several problems. On the one hand, it helps explain how the solution to a koan requires the personal experience of "the sound of one hand" or of "one's origional face." On the other, it allows us to see the koan as not merely a blunt or meaningless instrument, useful only as a means to some further end, but as possessed of a meaningful content of its own which can be apprehended intellectually.
----------------------------End----------------------------
Quote from: Fujikoma on July 03, 2010, 11:35:59 PM
Thanks for your answer. Yes, I see how they seem to dislike people stopping to think, even for a second...
If that's part of Zen, how does that correspond to Discordianism being called "Zen for roundeyes"?
Cause we dislike people never stopping to think, even for a second...
Quote from: Triple Zero on July 07, 2010, 09:07:04 AM
Cause we dislike people never stopping to think, even for a second...
That statement made me think. just for a second.
but then i stopped.
:lol:
Quote from: Iptuous on July 07, 2010, 07:34:46 PM
Quote from: Triple Zero on July 07, 2010, 09:07:04 AM
Cause we dislike people never stopping to think, even for a second...
That statement made me think. just for a second.
but then i stopped.
:lol:
:lulz:
(http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/1944/facepalmninjas.jpg)
I think there are different ways of thinking.
To go western, starting with Brentano, we have the idea of consciousness being "Intentional" or always directed toward some thing, this is demonstrative, positional or /thetic/ thinking. Together with this, we have consciousness (of) being conscious of something. The consciousness (of) consciousness is expressed as (of) for it is entirely distinct, experiessentially, from thetic thinking. Consciousness cannot obtain itself as an object and it is this source of self-reflexivity that one practices to realize. It is difficult because the mind always tries to think "it", which does not apply in this case, resulting on the insistence to "think different" or "think nothing" TM ;-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyuMk19lmsE&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WdJ_J5rGTc&feature=related
Nice!
Quote from: Triple Zero on July 07, 2010, 07:51:15 PM
:lulz:
(http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/1944/facepalmninjas.jpg)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4T0ZaHhKklU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4T0ZaHhKklU)
Quote from: minuspace on July 08, 2010, 04:42:37 AM
I think there are different ways of thinking.
That's wonderful, but maybe try to start with just one, okay?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eSm2fPMiFE&feature=related
FUCKING SHUT UP.
"There is surely nothing other than the single purpose of the present moment. A man's whole life is a succession of moment after moment. If one fully understands the present moment, there will be nothing else to do, and nothing else to pursue."~~Hagakure Kikigaki
SO WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU UP TO RIGHT NOW?
Quote from: Telarus on July 18, 2010, 05:05:09 PM
"A man's whole life is a succession of moment after moment."
SO WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU UP TO RIGHT NOW?
considering revising the idea of "succession" - YOU, YES, YOU!
ME?
WHAT? YOU GOT A PROBLEM? :oops:
[I know I know, but this IS funny] http://www.youtube.com/v/Rcpxa8gS9g8 (http://www.youtube.com/v/Rcpxa8gS9g8) - H. reacts to rainbow
x-post
was looking for these comics, they should be ITT!
Quote from: Cramulus on July 19, 2011, 05:37:25 PM
since I've already got the scanner warmed up, here's a few more comics from Zen Speaks about enlightenment
(http://i.imgur.com/tY5rU.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/ntcns.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/O8j2D.jpg)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_LO0xP3rNNsI/TQpF4XsiCnI/AAAAAAAACG4/fJmpyMd56aE/s1600/ZenSpeaks.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/ZotQw.jpg)
I've really pondered this one for quite some time...Each bit of it, if i may make a preference, is just wonderful.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinxin_Ming
Hsing Hsing Ming
The Great Way is not difficult
for those who have no preferences.
When love and hate are both absent
everything becomes clear and undisguised.
Make the smallest distinction, however,
and heaven and earth are set infinitely apart.
If you wish to see the truth
then hold no opinions for or against anything.
To set up what you like against what you dislike
is the disease of the mind.
When the deep meaning of things is not understood,
the mind's essential peace is disturbed to no avail.
The Way is perfect like vast space
where nothing is lacking and nothing in excess.
Indeed, it is due to our choosing to accept or reject
that we do not see the true nature of things.
Live neither in the entanglements of outer things,
nor in inner feelings of emptiness.
Be serene in the oneness of things and such
erroneous views will disappear by themselves.
When you try to stop activity by passivity
your very effort fills you with activity.
As long as you remain in one extreme or the other
you will never know Oneness.
Those who do not live in the single Way
fail in both activity and passivity,
assertion and denial.
To deny the reality of things
is to miss their reality;
To assert the emptiness of things
is to miss their reality.
The more you talk and think about it,
the further astray you wander from the truth.
Stop talking and thinking,
and there is nothing you will not be able to know.
To return to the root is to find meaning,
but to pursue appearances is to miss the source.
At the moment of inner enlightenment
there is a going beyond appearance and emptiness.
The changes that appear to occur in the empty world
we call real only because of our ignorance.
Do not search for the truth;
only cease to cherish opinions.
do not remain in the dualistic state.
Avoid such pursuits carefully.
If there is even a trace of this and that,
of right and wrong,
the mind-essence ewill be lost in confusion.
Although all dualities come from the One,
do not be attached even to this One.
When the mind exists undisturbed in the Way,
nothing in the world can offend.
And when a thing can no longer offend,
it ceases to exist in the old way.
When no discriminating thoughts arise,
the old mind ceases to exist.
When thought objects vanish,
the thinking-subject vanishes:
As when the mind vanishes, objects vanish.
Things are objects because of the subject (mind):
the mind (subject) is such because of things (object).
Understand the relativity of these two
and the basic reality: the unity of emptiness.
In this Emptiness the two are indistinguishable
and each contains in itself the whole world.
If you do not discriminate between coarse and fine
you will not be tempted to prejudice and opinion.
To live in the Great Way is neither easy nor difficult.
But those with limited views are fearful and irresolute:
the faster they hurry, the slower they go.
And clinging (attachment) cannot be limited:
Even to be attached to the idea of enlightenment
is to go astray.
Just let things be in their own way
and there will be neither coming not going.
Obey the nature of things (your own nature)
and you will walk freely and undisturbed.
When the thought is in bondage the truth is hidden
for everything is murky and unclear.
And the burdensome practice of judging
brings annoyance and weariness.
What benefit can be derived
from distinctions and separations?
If you wish to move in the One Way
do not dislike even the world of senses and ideas.
Indeed, to accept them fully
is identical with enlightenment.
The wise man strives to no goals
but the foolish man fetters himself.
There is one Dharma, not many.
Distinctions arise
from the clinging needs of the ignorant.
To seek Mind with the (discriminating) mind
is the greatest of all mistakes.
Rest and unrest derive from illusion;
with enlightenment
there is no liking and disliking.
All dualities come from ignorant inference.
They are like dreams or flowers in air -
foolish to try to grasp them.
Gain and loss, right and wrong,
such thoughts must
finally be abolished at once.
If the eye never sleeps,
all dreams will naturally cease.
If the mind makes no discriminations,
the ten thousand things are as they are,
of single essence.
To understand the mystery of this One-essence
is to be released from all entanglements.
When all things are seen equally
the timeless Self-essence is reached,
No comparisons or analogies are possible
in this causeless, relationless state.
Consider movement stationary
and the stationary in motion,
both movement and rest disappear.
When such dualities cease to exist
Oneness itself cannot exist.
To this ultimate finality
no law or description applies.
For the unified mind in accord with the way
all self-centered striving ceases.
Doubts and irresolutions vanish
and life in true faith is possible.
With a single stroke we are freed from bondage:
Nothing clings to us and we hold to nothing.
All is empty, clear, self-illuminating,
with no exertion of the mind's power.
Here thought, feeling,
knowledge and imagination are of no value.
In this world of suchness
there is neither self nor other-than-self.
To come directly into harmony with this reality
just say when doubt rises "not two".
In this "not two" nothing is separate,
nothing is excluded.
No matter when or where,
enlightenment means entering this truth.
And this truth is beyond extension
or diminution in time and space:
In it a single thought is ten thousand years.
Emptiness here, emptiness there,
but the infinite universe
stands always before your eyes.
Infinitely large and infinitely small;
no difference, for definitions have vanished
and no boundaries are seen.
So too with Being and non-Being.
Don't waste time in doubts and arguments
That have nothing to do with this.
One thing, all things,
move among and intermingle without distinction.
To live in this realization
is to be without anxiety about non-perfection.
To live in this faith is the road to non-duality,
because the non-dual is one with the trusting mind.
Words!
The Way is beyond language,
for in it there is
no yesterday
no tomorrow
no today.
Translated from the Chinese by Richard B. Clarke
Featured in Jack Kornfield, Teachings of the Buddha
Word.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5_HhqcbF_0&feature=relmfu
Did find this rather interesting:
Http://www.hermetica.info/OriginalDao.html (http://www.hermetica.info/OriginalDao.html)
I fucking hate discordions, I will read this.
Quote from: Fujikoma on February 15, 2012, 08:38:44 AM
I fucking hate discordions, I will read this.
Are you STILL pissed off?
Quote from: Fujikoma on February 15, 2012, 08:38:44 AM
I fucking hate discordions, I will read this.
Then... why are you HERE?
Rog- are you saying that strife causing charged particles DONT piss you off?
I learned a lot, hi all... life is very confusing, strife is not without merit, but ultimately, it's like a toddler ape that refuses to see the cage.
EDIT: Yes, Roger, I am still pissed off. There will never be a moment where I am not pissed off. This is all normal, I can't even recognize when I'm pissed off anymore, it's just, the default. This, is okay. So long as I can make decisions independent of my feelings, this is just, shit that happens.