It is often said that through empathy we can overcome our animal nature because that is basically the difference between animals and humans (the fact that some animals DO experience empathy, or otherwise that they show all of the tell-tale signs is a fairly ironic lack of empathy on the part of the individuals who do claim such things). The fact that it is impossible to tell the difference between "showing all of the tell-tale signs" and genuinely experiencing it, even in humans, is also fairly ironic and indicative of a complete lack of it. Empathy is a topic for another day, though...
The question is, what does it mean to "overcome" our animal nature? Another question, somewhat related, is how would we know if we did and how do we tell the difference between our genuinely overcoming our animal nature and "thinking" and "feeling like" we've overcome our animal nature? There would be no apparent difference between "overcoming" it and deluding ourselves into thinking we've overcome it.
Is this just another campfire the neanderthals build to gather around in order to not realize how insignificant they really are?
technically, that what culture is, us programming ourselves to behave in a way we otherwise wouldn't in the wild. though again, people don't do anything that at least some species of animals do, just on a larger and more complicated scale. the only different is the amount of foof-ah-rah (how do you spell that?)
Quote from: Chelagoras The Lust-Driven Dickwolf on July 30, 2014, 06:14:34 AM
technically, that what culture is, us programming ourselves to behave in a way we otherwise wouldn't in the wild. though again, people don't do anything that at least some species of animals do, just on a larger and more complicated scale. the only different is the amount of foof-ah-rah (how do you spell that?)
This is where the trouble comes in, though. IS our culture overcoming our animal nature, or is it a mere delusion of overcoming our animal nature, while at the same time expressing it fully? I find it hard to believe that IF people are special and above animals in the universe, that they would still make such a big deal out of such petty differences.
What is our animal nature?
I thought that part of the nature of the human animal WAS culture. Can you define 'our animal nature'?
Wouldn't anything we did to "overcome" our animal nature just be trading one animal nature for another? We are animals... not much is going to change that.
Quote from: Hoopla on July 30, 2014, 01:20:23 PM
Wouldn't anything we did to "overcome" our animal nature just be trading one animal nature for another? We are animals... not much is going to change that.
If you were to overcome our animal nature by developing cell walls, we would indeed be trading it for something which is not animal nature.
Quote from: von on July 30, 2014, 01:31:38 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on July 30, 2014, 01:20:23 PM
Wouldn't anything we did to "overcome" our animal nature just be trading one animal nature for another? We are animals... not much is going to change that.
If you were to overcome our animal nature by developing cell walls, we would indeed be trading it for something which is not animal nature.
True, but I don't think that's what the OP meant.
Overcome? No. Reprogram? Yes. It's all interconnected. Unless you've got some safe method of ripping out the entire limbic system, and still being alive at the end of it, you're pretty much stuck with the demented reptile. The neocortex can be employed to override most of the command impulses, tho.
If we did the radical right would fall upon us with knives and forks. Their low cunning does not allow for even the possibility of change on that level.
(http://i.imgur.com/2K8k8a4.jpg)
Quote from: wudgar on July 31, 2014, 03:47:37 PM
If we did the radical right would fall upon us with knives and forks. Their low cunning does not allow for even the possibility of change on that level.
lolwut
Quote from: von on July 31, 2014, 11:04:16 PM
Quote from: wudgar on July 31, 2014, 03:47:37 PM
If we did the radical right would fall upon us with knives and forks. Their low cunning does not allow for even the possibility of change on that level.
lolwut
Exactly my thought. I was unaware the gub'mint was trying to steal my viagra, but I suppose if everything is true, false, meaningful and meaningless it is true. I can't imagine what they would do with it, and don't want to. After all, they ARE getting on in years...
We are animals. Our social constructs emerge from our nature as animals. This is a stupid question.
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on August 02, 2014, 02:44:25 PM
We are animals. Our social constructs emerge from our nature as animals. This is a stupid question.
I think we should overcome our animal nature by killing ourselves - then we'd just be a bunch of carbon.
So how do we overcome our carbon nature?
Paging Dr P3nt, Dr P3nt's silicon lecture please.
Hey, y'all know I'm a massive fan of substrate transfer but that's a long-term solution. Short term we progressively dilute the control exerted by the base systems. We already do that. As I said - neocortex already runs a lot of overrides. Reptile wants to kill, reptile wants to fuck, reptile wants to eat. Neocortex says "NOPE!"
Short term (compared to uploading at least) we add layers of logic computation on top of the neocortex. The Exocortex. We already have this but it's a bit fragmented. The internet. Even before that we had books. Progressive interface integration will bring the exocortex into direct connection. The bridged-exocortex. At this point the sky is the limit. At some point our bridged-exocortex will match neocortex performance. Our higher level-consciousness will be exactly twice as powerful. Two years after that three times, two years after that 5 times and so on. Meanwhile the reptile lumbers on.
Even without the exocortex, we are currently capable of running rings around the reptile, however, because of the way our mental systems are stacked and integrated it takes a fair bit of effort. It's shadow-boxing. Wrestling with oneself. Our race achieves varying levels of success in this endeavour. With the exocortex, however, control mechanisms will be downloadable from the app-store.
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on July 30, 2014, 02:57:53 PM
Overcome? No. Reprogram? Yes. It's all interconnected. Unless you've got some safe method of ripping out the entire limbic system, and still being alive at the end of it, you're pretty much stuck with the demented reptile. The neocortex can be employed to override most of the command impulses, tho.
I agree that one's animal nature can't be overcome. We ARE animals. We are primates in the animal kingdom. There isn't any getting around that. The difference between us however and other primates like chimpazees, is our intellect, intelligence and the fact that we would most likely get arrested if we throw our poo at people who we don't like. We can reprogram out brains through neuroplasticity, and thus better control our actions and reactions. We can use the human condition, or human nature to reprogram our animal nature.
Under proper operation, animal-Nature is a rather awesome incarnation, I think :lulz:
In the last week or so I have seen many uses of the word "neuroplasticity" in contexts that imply that the user does not, in fact, know what "neuroplasticity" means.
Quote from: zackli on July 30, 2014, 06:09:12 AM
The question is, what does it mean to "overcome" our animal nature?
It means you died.
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on August 18, 2014, 05:50:38 PM
In the last week or so I have seen many uses of the word "neuroplasticity" in contexts that imply that the user does not, in fact, know what "neuroplasticity" means.
Hey, I know what it means. It's a super power. Neuroplastic Man. If I am using it wrong in my original post and am showing ignorance, apologies.
Quote from: Water Bear Warrior on August 19, 2014, 04:57:37 AM
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on August 18, 2014, 05:50:38 PM
In the last week or so I have seen many uses of the word "neuroplasticity" in contexts that imply that the user does not, in fact, know what "neuroplasticity" means.
Hey, I know what it means. It's a super power. Neuroplastic Man. If I am using it wrong in my original post and am showing ignorance, apologies.
It's not even really wrong as much as it is an inappropriate and unnecessary use of jargon. "Reprogram the brain through neuroplasticity!" = "learn stuff". But "learn stuff" doesn't sound as cool.
Usually when we talk about harnessing neuroplastic capacity to reprogram the brain, we're talking about directed exercises that reroute functions around damage from stroke or other injuries. Technically the brain is always plastic, and you CAN talk about learning stuff and changing your habitual behaviors in terms of neuroplasticity, but it makes you sound like a douche.
I predict that within 5 years, there will be Neuroplasticity Actualization consultants* making a fortune by scamming Fortune 500 companies by teaching them, essentially, that they can learn stuff and change their behaviour.
Because there's nothing the corporate world loves more than a buzzword, especially if it gives a thin veneer of legitimacy to the practice of making ridiculous amounts of money for no particular reason.
*and if there isn't, then I will become one
Quote from: Cain on August 19, 2014, 04:35:04 PM
I predict that within 5 years, there will be Neuroplasticity Actualization consultants* making a fortune by scamming Fortune 500 companies by teaching them, essentially, that they can learn stuff and change their behaviour.
Because there's nothing the corporate world loves more than a buzzword, especially if it gives a thin veneer of legitimacy to the practice of making ridiculous amounts of money for no particular reason.
*and if there isn't, then I will become one
:lulz: I suspect you are exactly right, and you should jump on that bandwagon FIRST so you can trademark that shit.
I will gladly sign on as your US-affiliated partner.
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