(1) There is a mass extinction going on
(2) The driving force behind the mass extinction cannot e stopped anymore
(3) Mass extinctions are mainly caused by nature not being able to adapt fast enough to the rapidly changing enviroment
(4) Adapting nature by hand, using gene tech, is too much work to be viable.
(5) Radiation.
(6) We have bunch of residue from our last existential threat lying around unused.
Let's nuke national parks to save the planet!
I'm sorry to say that radiation only leads to rapid adaptation in Fallout.
Surely stuff would at least die more, adding evolutionary pressure?
Yeah. To bombs and radiation.
I wanted to be funny about this but it's day six of a nine day work week and my funny died in a smoldering crater this morning. As is the planet.
Quote from: Frontside Back on October 29, 2019, 03:28:07 PM
Surely stuff would at least die more, adding evolutionary pressure?
If the "evolutionary pressure" is "an atomic bomb dropped on your location," then there is no evolutionary effect. You have simply removed breeding pairs regardless of fitness.
The obvious way to increase a species' ability to adapt is to reduce the time it takes to get to reproductive maturity. However, this also means you end up with simpler species (like mice, and fruit flies).
Irradiating everything may eventually increase the radiation tolerance of the descendants of the survivors, but they won't be able to adapt any quicker.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 29, 2019, 04:02:34 PM
Quote from: Frontside Back on October 29, 2019, 03:28:07 PM
Surely stuff would at least die more, adding evolutionary pressure?
If the "evolutionary pressure" is "an atomic bomb dropped on your location," then there is no evolutionary effect. You have simply removed breeding pairs regardless of fitness.
QuoteAny cause that reduces reproductive success in a portion of a population potentially exerts evolutionary pressure, selective pressure or selection pressure, driving natural selection.[1]
Weeeell, for the most part it would establish survival benchmark standards for the most part... like you either live or die since the change is so fast... stuff like Tardigrades and cockroaches will be fine without adapting or evolving (?) while the grand majority of other living things would die off, and whatever it's left that survives long enough will adapt.
Quote from: The Johnny on October 29, 2019, 04:39:01 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on October 29, 2019, 04:02:34 PM
Quote from: Frontside Back on October 29, 2019, 03:28:07 PM
Surely stuff would at least die more, adding evolutionary pressure?
If the "evolutionary pressure" is "an atomic bomb dropped on your location," then there is no evolutionary effect. You have simply removed breeding pairs regardless of fitness.
QuoteAny cause that reduces reproductive success in a portion of a population potentially exerts evolutionary pressure, selective pressure or selection pressure, driving natural selection.[1]
Weeeell, for the most part it would establish survival benchmark standards for the most part... like you either live or die since the change is so fast... stuff like Tardigrades and cockroaches will be fine without adapting or evolving (?) while the grand majority of other living things would die off, and whatever it's left that survives long enough will adapt.
Cockroaches cannot survive inside the thermal pulse range of an atomic weapon. Nothing can. If your model is "change things with instant death," then there is no evolution.
When getting further away from the ground zero, things tend to survive more. While they might be struggling with burning alive and dying of cancer, there's certainly a lot more space to make nests in.
Quote from: chaotic neutral observer on October 29, 2019, 04:34:14 PM
The obvious way to increase a species' ability to adapt is to reduce the time it takes to get to reproductive maturity. However, this also means you end up with simpler species (like mice, and fruit flies)..
I was mainly concerned about insects anyway, all the cute vertebrates will be preserved in zoos anyway.
The answer to "will nuking it improve things" is easily found:
Do you want everything in a large radius to be completely eliminated and a much larger range to be cursed with eventual, unavoidable, slow and miserable death?
The answers to the two questions are identical. Nukes are good for destroying asteroids and killing things. Using them for purposes other than asteroid destruction is equivalent to killing things. The only selection pressure they add is pressure to have cancer and lose your intestinal lining.
Quote from: nullified on October 29, 2019, 05:45:21 PM
The answer to "will nuking it improve things" is easily found:
Do you want everything in a large radius to be completely eliminated and a much larger range to be cursed with eventual, unavoidable, slow and miserable death?
The answers to the two questions are identical. Nukes are good for destroying asteroids and killing things. Using them for purposes other than asteroid destruction is equivalent to killing things. The only selection pressure they add is pressure to have cancer and lose your intestinal lining.
They're not very good at destroying asteroids. Would you like to know more?
Quote from: nullified on October 29, 2019, 05:45:21 PM
Nukes are good for destroying asteroids and killing things.
They're also handy if you want to indiscriminately destroy satellites in LEO.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starfish_Prime
I miss actual biologists hanging around.
Evolution is breeding enough with enough variety to survive your environment. "Better" is subjective at it's most extreme.
If massive radiation kills and sterilizes multiple generations, the species dies.
If massive radiation creates myriad mutations which cannot survive the environment and cannot reproduce, the species dies.
Any evolution that would occur in this situation would be maximized for survival in a radioactive environment; not for intelligence, creativity, cooperation, or love.
This entire thread is stupid, and isn't even outlandish enough to be clever.
Quote from: chaotic neutral observer on October 29, 2019, 06:09:15 PM
Quote from: nullified on October 29, 2019, 05:45:21 PM
Nukes are good for destroying asteroids and killing things.
They're also handy if you want to indiscriminately destroy satellites in LEO.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starfish_Prime
This. Nukes are good for only one thing: Getting peoples' complete and undivided attention. For a moment or two, anyway.
Quote from: LMNO on October 29, 2019, 06:21:05 PM
I miss actual biologists hanging around.
Evolution is breeding enough with enough variety to survive your environment. "Better" is subjective at it's most extreme.
If massive radiation kills and sterilizes multiple generations, the species dies.
If massive radiation creates myriad mutations which cannot survive the environment and cannot reproduce, the species dies.
Any evolution that would occur in this situation would be maximized for survival in a radioactive environment; not for intelligence, creativity, cooperation, or love.
This entire thread is stupid, and isn't even outlandish enough to be clever.
This.
I'm hoping for a chemist to come by and find the precipitate.
Quote from: Cain on October 29, 2019, 06:34:48 PM
I'm hoping for a chemist to come by and find the precipitate.
:golfclap:
Nukes are great at destroying asteroids! Far, far away from Earth. I thought the dangers of destroying NEAs with nukes were too obvious to bring up, but I'm also brain dead today (it took me 20 minutes to write two paragraphs and I got sent home after being informed my 3 hours of work counted as OT anyway.)
Quote from: nullified on October 29, 2019, 06:59:23 PM
Nukes are great at destroying asteroids! Far, far away from Earth. I thought the dangers of destroying NEAs with nukes were too obvious to bring up, but I'm also brain dead today (it took me 20 minutes to write two paragraphs and I got sent home after being informed my 3 hours of work counted as OT anyway.)
Naw, the debris entrains and then you get a shotgun blast to the face instead of a bullet.
After considering all of the constructive criticism it seems like (5) and (6) went a bit overboard.
Only alternative to nuking everything that came up was shortening species reproduction cycle proposed by CNO. I'm really not sure if that's viable either, since raising child benefits for nonhuman species high enough would surely cause a huge public outcry. It also wouldn't use up all the nukes.
Anyway, it's still worth a try, since alternative is most of species dying out. We should have some of the technology required already developed for the meat industry. Can't you just spray growth hormones everywhere? There's no way that could backfire.
Quote from: Frontside Back on October 29, 2019, 11:12:56 PM
After considering all of the constructive criticism it seems like (5) and (6) went a bit overboard.
Only alternative to nuking everything that came up was shortening species reproduction cycle proposed by CNO. I'm really not sure if that's viable either, since raising child benefits for nonhuman species high enough would surely cause a huge public outcry. It also wouldn't use up all the nukes.
Anyway, it's still worth a try, since alternative is most of species dying out. We should have some of the technology required already developed for the meat industry. Can't you just spray growth hormones everywhere? There's no way that could backfire.
There really is no reason for us to keep eating meat.
But if you tell ECH I said that, I'll call you a liar.
I hear some of the new vegan immitation meat is way better than the real thing. I'm wanting to try some.
Quote from: Fujikoma on November 23, 2019, 04:04:59 AM
I hear some of the new vegan immitation meat is way better than the real thing. I'm wanting to try some.
Naw, but the best stuff is close.
Good imitation meat is fucking delicious. Okay imitation meat is also delicious, but obviously not meat.
I agree, AS AN AVOWED MEAT EATER, that there's no reason left to keep doing it. I mostly do it because of price and availability.
I know, and Howl sure as fuck knows, and almost no one else does, that we could easily produce fake meat at prices suited to regular meat, including almost identical nutrient blends and even very similar micronutrients. The reasons we don't? Psychological and sociological inertia, American nationalist stupidity, and The Free Market.
Quote from: nullified on November 23, 2019, 04:50:56 AM
Good imitation meat is fucking delicious. Okay imitation meat is also delicious, but obviously not meat.
I agree, AS AN AVOWED MEAT EATER, that there's no reason left to keep doing it. I mostly do it because of price and availability.
I know, and Howl sure as fuck knows, and almost no one else does, that we could easily produce fake meat at prices suited to regular meat, including almost identical nutrient blends and even very similar micronutrients. The reasons we don't? Psychological and sociological inertia, American nationalist stupidity, and The Free Market.
Give that wage slave a cigar!
Well, a cigarillo. We can't have them developing excess expectations.
If we let all the cute lifestock stuffed in cages go extinct, souls of deceased politicians have no place shitty enough to go to. Also the mass of unemployed sadists that would free up makes me shudder. In a good way.
Believe it or not, having known many people who work in the meat industry, the majority are of two types.
Sweet and innocent things who just want to ease the suffering of these animals before they inevitably die,
And cheery perfectionists who aren't about to let some dead cow go to waste, DO NOT FUCK UP CUTTING THIS MEAT! SOMETHING DIED FOR THIS MEAT TO BE CUT RIGHT YOU USELESS WRETCH! HOW FUCKING DARE YOU!
Surprisingly, VERY few sadists work in the meat industry. It's either the two types I mentioned before, or the same mix of people you get in any underappreciated non-service industry career path, with maybe a slightly higher proportion of women than the standard.
If you want sadists, look at correctional officers.
No, I'm reading this book about animal liberation. They are definitely sadists.
NVM, I changed my mind, they aren't. What I clearly ment with that first comment (probably) was the owners, who'd be left with stagnant production lines specifically designed to make living things dead. Bit of lobbying and they could repurpose those into amusement parks for orphan children or something equally disturbing.
I'm going to third what nullified and Howl have said.
I've tried Beyond Meat burgers, and while there is a little...something (I believe it's texture related) that makes it feel not quite like real meat, it's very damn close. Not to mention if you are having it in a burger, it's covered in enough sauce, fried onions, cheese, lettuce etc to really make it hard to pick out. I was purposefully looking for differences and I found a very minor one.
If the price went down, I'd happily eat them in lieu of real meat 95% of the time (I've not heard of any good imitation fish or bacon). I wholeheartedly recommend them to anyone who is looking to give it a try.
I think it important to note that the real goal isn't to just, do away with the meat industry over night. Like it or not, cows shit, big, floppy dumps, all the time. Ever seen a cow shit? I've spent enough time growing up and exploring the woods and a ranch to know JUST HOW MUCH THEY SHIT. It's huge. Methane is a greenhouse gas. Now, I still eat meat, but I try to eat a lot more vegetarian food, because any dent I can make in my carbon footprint is better than just being the straight-up carnivore nature designed me to be. Luckilly, foods that can meet my needs are more plentiful now.
Yeah, the methane they produce accounts for something like 15% of all man-made emissions of greenhouse gases. It's ridiculously potent.
I also eat more meat than I should, though I'm not eating it every day (or even every other day) at this point. My sister's a vegan, but I'm honestly not quite that committed.
Quote from: Frontside Back on November 23, 2019, 06:23:48 AM
NVM, I changed my mind, they aren't. What I clearly ment with that first comment (probably) was the owners, who'd be left with stagnant production lines specifically designed to make living things dead. Bit of lobbying and they could repurpose those into amusement parks for orphan children or something equally disturbing.
Sounds like someone doesn't support THE FREE MARKET!
oddly enough, buying more steak has helped our household reduce meat consumption. The Husband has an unfortunate blood type thing that requires a shitton more iron than is healthy for the rest of us, and for the longest time I was trying to find a middle ground between the food he needs and the rest of us. Now I just buy cheap steak and freeze it (buddy also likes his meat lean as hell and cooked to death, so it's cheaper than you'd think). A couple nights a week he's a happy camper cause he gets his red meat and the rest of us have a meat free dinner.
I've been having trouble because my iron levels are horribly excessive, much as I like meat, and much as my primary care physician may say that, eating meat isn't affecting it, I still feel the need to cut back on any sources of iron. Then again I'm a horrible mutant and may be about to evolve into a new pokemon, but I'm not willing to put bets on that. More likely the simplest answer is the best, which is, "stop eating iron or you're going to get a systemic overdose."... that's not the case for everyone.
Quote from: Frontside Back on November 23, 2019, 06:23:48 AM
NVM, I changed my mind, they aren't. What I clearly ment with that first comment (probably) was the owners, who'd be left with stagnant production lines specifically designed to make living things dead. Bit of lobbying and they could repurpose those into amusement parks for orphan children or something equally disturbing.
You think you're joking but you're not. It's been done.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on November 24, 2019, 07:51:04 AM
Quote from: Frontside Back on November 23, 2019, 06:23:48 AM
NVM, I changed my mind, they aren't. What I clearly ment with that first comment (probably) was the owners, who'd be left with stagnant production lines specifically designed to make living things dead. Bit of lobbying and they could repurpose those into amusement parks for orphan children or something equally disturbing.
You think you're joking but you're not. It's been done.
I had thought so but had no proof and didn't want to be yelled at for a childhood memory.
Yes, so, I strongly have a childhood memory of touring a slaughterhouse. A big part of MEAT PLACE was driven by the memory of this very nearly psychedelic trip through a not-totally-cleaned up meat processing house that had cardboard animals haphazardly stood up in corners.
There were three men who we were stopped and got lectured at by along the way, all former employees who were clearly upset their old job was replaced with This Shit.
The whole thing wasn't scary really, just sad.
Quote from: nullified on November 23, 2019, 03:39:10 PM
Quote from: Frontside Back on November 23, 2019, 06:23:48 AM
NVM, I changed my mind, they aren't. What I clearly ment with that first comment (probably) was the owners, who'd be left with stagnant production lines specifically designed to make living things dead. Bit of lobbying and they could repurpose those into amusement parks for orphan children or something equally disturbing.
Sounds like someone doesn't support THE FREE MARKET!
It felt like a decent idea, but it turns out you need to pay for everything there, despite the name...
That gave me an epiphany.
Capitalism is fast food. Socialism is an all you can eat buffet. Late stage capitalism is a fancy restaurant with a waiting list and a cover charge.
Capitalism doesn't charge you for walking in the door, but you get garbage and have to pay through the nose for it.
Socialism charges you to get inside, but you get to have it all in there. The problem is so does everyone else and they're all stinking apes (you too) so it's a health hazard.
And late stage capitalism charges you to get on the list, charges you to get in the door, and charges you to eat anything on top of it all.
Is the Not-Meat stuff only replicating ground meat? That severely limits menu options.
Quote from: LMNO on November 25, 2019, 01:42:46 PM
Is the Not-Meat stuff only replicating ground meat? That severely limits menu options.
There are commercially available reasonable chicken stand-ins, but they do best in nugget or patty form. There's a sorta McRib equivalent that's decent, but that's largely a function of being slathered in bbq sauce. I haven't tried any of the sausage ones, but I imagine they work alright based on the expected texture. Basically as long as the meat you're replacing is sufficiently processed you can get away with the fakes, but a proper fake steak is nowhere on the horizon.
I don't get the whole artificial meat thing.
I mean, I like meat? But I think I'd rather have real vegetables than fake meat made from plants. Is transforming it into synthetic meat really the best way to prepare a vegetable?
Quote from: chaotic neutral observer on November 25, 2019, 11:26:35 PM
I don't get the whole artificial meat thing.
I mean, I like meat? But I think I'd rather have real vegetables than fake meat made from plants. Is transforming it into synthetic meat really the best way to prepare a vegetable?
Vegetable meat-like foods can be a good way to manage a craving or to help people who want to cut down on meat to do some easy swaps. You're right that less processed vegetarian meals are better, but meat substitutes are reasonable baby steps.
Quote from: chaotic neutral observer on November 25, 2019, 11:26:35 PM
I don't get the whole artificial meat thing.
I mean, I like meat? But I think I'd rather have real vegetables than fake meat made from plants. Is transforming it into synthetic meat really the best way to prepare a vegetable?
Fake meat is either fungus based, or is based on beets, which aren't any kind of food at all.
Quote from: chaotic neutral observer on November 25, 2019, 11:26:35 PM
I don't get the whole artificial meat thing.
I mean, I like meat? But I think I'd rather have real vegetables than fake meat made from plants.
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/vqgSO8_cRio/hqdefault.jpg)
There's loads of money waiting for anyone who will first come up with a substitute to human flesh.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on November 26, 2019, 06:42:56 AM
Quote from: chaotic neutral observer on November 25, 2019, 11:26:35 PM
I don't get the whole artificial meat thing.
I mean, I like meat? But I think I'd rather have real vegetables than fake meat made from plants. Is transforming it into synthetic meat really the best way to prepare a vegetable?
Fake meat is either fungus based, or is based on beets, which aren't any kind of food at all.
I never enjoyed the beet stuff. But fungus is more delicious than you can possibly know until you've stuffed your cavernous mouthhole full of mold gonads.
And anyone who says otherwise has had their primary experience be with CANNED SLICED MUSHROOMS which aren't actually fungus, just flavored rubber
Quote from: nullified on November 26, 2019, 05:20:40 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on November 26, 2019, 06:42:56 AM
Quote from: chaotic neutral observer on November 25, 2019, 11:26:35 PM
I don't get the whole artificial meat thing.
I mean, I like meat? But I think I'd rather have real vegetables than fake meat made from plants. Is transforming it into synthetic meat really the best way to prepare a vegetable?
Fake meat is either fungus based, or is based on beets, which aren't any kind of food at all.
I never enjoyed the beet stuff. But fungus is more delicious than you can possibly know until you've stuffed your cavernous mouthhole full of mold gonads.
And anyone who says otherwise has had their primary experience be with CANNED SLICED MUSHROOMS which aren't actually fungus, just flavored rubber
This.
Here in Georgia someone who once considered themselves a serious carnivore opened up a burger restaurant... They still love meat, but they make the majority of their burgers with meatless patties because the flavor and texture turn out so much juicier and tastier than the real thing that there's seriously no reason to murder anything for an inferior burger.
Quote from: Fujikoma on November 27, 2019, 06:53:36 AM
Here in Georgia someone who once considered themselves a serious carnivore opened up a burger restaurant... They still love meat, but they make the majority of their burgers with meatless patties because the flavor and texture turn out so much juicier and tastier than the real thing that there's seriously no reason to murder anything for an inferior burger.
I hate cows. :crankey:
Quote from: Doktor Howl on November 27, 2019, 07:49:45 PM
I hate cows. :crankey:
And plants are keeping them alive, better kill plants first
Cows are spooky, I'll never forget when I was 9 years old... I used to explore my family's land, it was partially used for ranching. One day, in the middle of a huge field, I picked up a stick and began randomly scribing strange runes in the dirt. I was so absorbed in my task I forgot my surroundings.
I was reminded by an inquisitive "moooOOOO!" behind me. I turned to look, and there, was a longhorn steer, staring at me curiously. He and I were completely encircled by cows, all standing in a line, looking in at us at the center. I looked up, and said "Um, hi?" and they stared for another few minutes, before moving on.