Principia Discordia

Principia Discordia => Aneristic Illusions => Topic started by: Ben Shapiro on May 30, 2014, 03:03:08 AM

Title: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Ben Shapiro on May 30, 2014, 03:03:08 AM
Rising views that marijuana is a safe drug are expanding marijuana use with pregnant mothers. Marijuana is known to have long-term negative effects on brain development, and legalization would increase its use further – endangering New Hampshire children.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on May 30, 2014, 04:07:31 AM
Quote from: All father, Bearman on May 30, 2014, 03:03:08 AM
Besides it being the right thing(s) to do. How do we stop it?
1.) White Knight if you give a fuck
2.) Don't encourage, or emulate the "alpha male" persona.
3.) My rant = motorcycle I'm currently on. Is this a correct motorcycle, and is there one with better mileage?

This rant summarizes how I feel about this idiotic logic (Alpha Male)
It's been burning me on the inside for these last two months I've been called a misogynist (6-7 times) whenever disagreement occurs wasn't even on tumblr. I've never in my life been offended to slurs until now.

Rant:
"I want to get mad at the the guy who shot all those people because LOL WOMEN LOL, but I can't. I more pissed off at the fact that men are fed this bullshit logic that if you're not a alpha male (self-entitled prick) you're not a real man. Yeah I'll get right on that. I'll shave my head into a mohawk,get a tribal tattoo, drink Bud Light Lime, eat everything covered in bacon, fuck my wife even when she says no.

This is not even close to what women go through from this socially accepted standard of men. It takes a iron will to not go ape shit on every fuckhead who decides not leave you the fuck alone while shopping for groceries.

Of course the stupid alpha male logic won't go away because it's "life", or that's how "humans" are. No, it won't go away because everyone who reads this tired rant only cares about dishing out the punishment on THOSE SICK BASTARDS then actually asking themselves what stupid behavior am I encouraging every fucking day. But this tends to be the end result of every god damn incident like this in the media. "I won't do some self-reflecting because I rather feel good doing the latter (punishment freak) than do something good (not encourage that guy, or buy into this standard)".


If you think I'm full of shit. Then let me remind you this is the same stupid alpha male logic that convinces "Alpha Men" that women who love having sex, or love giving blow jobs is a threat to society, or this nation's values, or that openly gay men are somehow a threat to them when it comes to attracting mates. Yeah let the sheer stupidity sink in."

I have to think on this further, but as for me, it doesn't take me an iron will. It just takes me a principle.

Do I want to throttle a motherfucker now and again?

Sure.

How often does that happen? Not very, actually. You do live in Texas, so your mileage may vary. God knows I'd be climbing the walls. But if I did throttle a motherfucker, what good does it do? He thinks I'm a shitneck, and I haven't changed his mind at all. I'm still probably not going to change his mind through peaceful means. I don't know. I don't know.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on May 30, 2014, 04:10:23 AM
My principle is obviously pacifism. You can't beat sense into someone, and undue physical harm for incorrect thinking is obviously wrong. Unless it is to preserve your own life, or the life of another, violence is inexcusable.

Twid,
Provisional, realistic, pacifist
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on May 30, 2014, 04:21:30 AM
If I've understood you correctly, I think the best course of action is merciless mockery.

In other words, troll the shit out of them, but be surgical in your strikes.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 30, 2014, 07:24:16 AM
Bear, I  think your motorcycle is the correct one. It also takes a combination approach; yes, make harassment and abuse socially unacceptable, AND yes, change society so that boys aren't constantly fed the bullshit about "being real men".
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on May 30, 2014, 07:35:31 AM
Quote from: All-Father Nigel on May 30, 2014, 07:24:16 AM
Bear, I  think your motorcycle is the correct one. It also takes a combination approach; yes, make harassment and abuse socially unacceptable, AND yes, change society so that boys aren't constantly fed the bullshit about "being real men".

Yeah. That 'real man' spiel. Man. I have fun stories about that, too. And the whole 'real woman' thing. That shit has got to fucking stop. I think if we would stop telling everyone from birth on up that they are doing it wrong, when they aren't, that things would get a lot less stupid really fast.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on May 30, 2014, 07:50:25 AM
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on May 30, 2014, 07:35:31 AM
Quote from: All-Father Nigel on May 30, 2014, 07:24:16 AM
Bear, I  think your motorcycle is the correct one. It also takes a combination approach; yes, make harassment and abuse socially unacceptable, AND yes, change society so that boys aren't constantly fed the bullshit about "being real men".

Yeah. That 'real man' spiel. Man. I have fun stories about that, too. And the whole 'real woman' thing. That shit has got to fucking stop. I think if we would stop telling everyone from birth on up that they are doing it wrong, when they aren't, that things would get a lot less stupid really fast.

Nail + head!

It's so much wider than gender issues, too. Everyone grows up on a diet of bullshit and most swallow. Is it any surprise that there are so many shitheads in the world? The real miracle is the (seemingly) growing number of non-shitheads. Long may this trend continue.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Pergamos on May 30, 2014, 08:48:18 AM
PUA's have picked up this idea of alpha and turned it into something toxic.  It's a weird metaphor anyway, since it is borrowed from wolves and their sexual dynamics are very different from ours but I don't think there is anything wrong with alpha people by definition, they just need to be in charge.  Someone who isn't alpha trying to act alpha, either to get laid or for other reasons, is going to act in ways that are not effective, alpha social strategies don't work for betas.  PUA's fetishize the alpha male status (and yes, an alpha male is going to have a greater chance of sex with a more desirable woman) while putting together a list of techniques that are not really related to being alpha in most cases.  I actually think they are more effective at their goal because of that, if their techniques all consisted of aping alpha male behavior they'd just be making themselves creepy.

I'm not a big fan of alphas in social situations, male or female, because they tend to need to control the conversation but I'd much rather have an alpha as a work supervisor than a beta, they are comfortable in a leadership position.  I'm also not personally romantically attracted to alpha females, they're too high maintenance for me.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on May 30, 2014, 09:02:53 AM
Whenever I think of Alphas, I think of dogs. I think of something my gundog training buddy told me that was a surprise. I'd always gone under the assumption that all dogs wanted to be the alpha and the actual alpha was the one that managed to stay top of the heap the longest but this isn't true. Most dogs don't want to be alpha. Most dogs hate being forced to adopt an alpha role. In the absence of an alpha male, a non-alpha will step up to fill the role out of a kind of duty or obligation to the pack but that dog will fucking hate it and quickly become neurotic as fuck.

I know the metaphor is canines v's primates but some of that seems to translate in parallels.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: MMIX on May 30, 2014, 09:49:21 AM
Word to the wise for anyone who has never studied "alphas" in their natural habitat, i.e. in ethology classes  :wink:

This is only from Wiki but is mercifully short and to the point http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_(ethology)
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Lenin McCarthy on May 30, 2014, 10:03:41 AM
That "Real Men" thing uses society's fear of deviants as blackmail to make people behave. The implication that such a thing as Fake Men exists is rather terrifying. I've never felt like a Real Man, and I don't think I want to.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Reginald Ret on May 30, 2014, 10:16:20 AM
Quote from: Lenin McCarthy on May 30, 2014, 10:03:41 AM
That "Real Men" thing uses society's fear of deviants as blackmail to make people behave. The implication that such a thing as Fake Men exists is rather terrifying. I've never felt like a Real Man, and I don't think I want to.

The cure is simple then: Be more and more deviant until the average shifts and the expectations change.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Reginald Ret on May 30, 2014, 10:17:36 AM
Regularly admitting that you would rather be seen as unmanly than do X or say Y is a great way of shifting your local culture towards gender neutrality.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 30, 2014, 02:38:35 PM
Quote from: Pergamos on May 30, 2014, 08:48:18 AM
PUA's have picked up this idea of alpha and turned it into something toxic.  It's a weird metaphor anyway, since it is borrowed from wolves and their sexual dynamics are very different from ours but I don't think there is anything wrong with alpha people by definition, they just need to be in charge.  Someone who isn't alpha trying to act alpha, either to get laid or for other reasons, is going to act in ways that are not effective, alpha social strategies don't work for betas.  PUA's fetishize the alpha male status (and yes, an alpha male is going to have a greater chance of sex with a more desirable woman) while putting together a list of techniques that are not really related to being alpha in most cases.  I actually think they are more effective at their goal because of that, if their techniques all consisted of aping alpha male behavior they'd just be making themselves creepy.

I'm not a big fan of alphas in social situations, male or female, because they tend to need to control the conversation but I'd much rather have an alpha as a work supervisor than a beta, they are comfortable in a leadership position.  I'm also not personally romantically attracted to alpha females, they're too high maintenance for me.

It's not only based on the social dynamic of wolves, it's based on an artificial and forced captive social dynamic of strange wolves forced together in confinement that doesn't occur naturally in the wild at all.

And it doesn't occur in people. I wish we could just scrub the idea of "alpha" being applied to human beings from our consciousness altogether. It's wrong, and it causes people to think of human dynamics in a wrong way.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Q. G. Pennyworth on May 30, 2014, 05:09:21 PM
I like this thread.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on May 30, 2014, 05:39:00 PM
Quote from: All-Father Nigel on May 30, 2014, 02:38:35 PM
Quote from: Pergamos on May 30, 2014, 08:48:18 AM
PUA's have picked up this idea of alpha and turned it into something toxic.  It's a weird metaphor anyway, since it is borrowed from wolves and their sexual dynamics are very different from ours but I don't think there is anything wrong with alpha people by definition, they just need to be in charge.  Someone who isn't alpha trying to act alpha, either to get laid or for other reasons, is going to act in ways that are not effective, alpha social strategies don't work for betas.  PUA's fetishize the alpha male status (and yes, an alpha male is going to have a greater chance of sex with a more desirable woman) while putting together a list of techniques that are not really related to being alpha in most cases.  I actually think they are more effective at their goal because of that, if their techniques all consisted of aping alpha male behavior they'd just be making themselves creepy.

I'm not a big fan of alphas in social situations, male or female, because they tend to need to control the conversation but I'd much rather have an alpha as a work supervisor than a beta, they are comfortable in a leadership position.  I'm also not personally romantically attracted to alpha females, they're too high maintenance for me.

It's not only based on the social dynamic of wolves, it's based on an artificial and forced captive social dynamic of strange wolves forced together in confinement that doesn't occur naturally in the wild at all.

And it doesn't occur in people. I wish we could just scrub the idea of "alpha" being applied to human beings from our consciousness altogether. It's wrong, and it causes people to think of human dynamics in a wrong way.

By the same token, something that can be kinda looked at that way has permeated vast swathes of our social psychology or whatever correct terminology applies to "the way things work between humans" I don't think the alpha wolves science guys instigated the effect. I think there were probably guys who fit the description of "alpha", existent in societies a long time before all that shenanigans.

Maybe the fact that the wolves were thrown into an unnatural grouping of complete strangers is indicative of the kind of group dynamics that can develop in the interactions of some mammals when exposed to this - room full of strangers - scenario?
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 30, 2014, 05:55:29 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on May 30, 2014, 05:39:00 PM
Quote from: All-Father Nigel on May 30, 2014, 02:38:35 PM
Quote from: Pergamos on May 30, 2014, 08:48:18 AM
PUA's have picked up this idea of alpha and turned it into something toxic.  It's a weird metaphor anyway, since it is borrowed from wolves and their sexual dynamics are very different from ours but I don't think there is anything wrong with alpha people by definition, they just need to be in charge.  Someone who isn't alpha trying to act alpha, either to get laid or for other reasons, is going to act in ways that are not effective, alpha social strategies don't work for betas.  PUA's fetishize the alpha male status (and yes, an alpha male is going to have a greater chance of sex with a more desirable woman) while putting together a list of techniques that are not really related to being alpha in most cases.  I actually think they are more effective at their goal because of that, if their techniques all consisted of aping alpha male behavior they'd just be making themselves creepy.

I'm not a big fan of alphas in social situations, male or female, because they tend to need to control the conversation but I'd much rather have an alpha as a work supervisor than a beta, they are comfortable in a leadership position.  I'm also not personally romantically attracted to alpha females, they're too high maintenance for me.

It's not only based on the social dynamic of wolves, it's based on an artificial and forced captive social dynamic of strange wolves forced together in confinement that doesn't occur naturally in the wild at all.

And it doesn't occur in people. I wish we could just scrub the idea of "alpha" being applied to human beings from our consciousness altogether. It's wrong, and it causes people to think of human dynamics in a wrong way.

By the same token, something that can be kinda looked at that way has permeated vast swathes of our social psychology or whatever correct terminology applies to "the way things work between humans" I don't think the alpha wolves science guys instigated the effect. I think there were probably guys who fit the description of "alpha", existent in societies a long time before all that shenanigans.

Maybe the fact that the wolves were thrown into an unnatural grouping of complete strangers is indicative of the kind of group dynamics that can develop in the interactions of some mammals when exposed to this - room full of strangers - scenario?

"Alpha" as it's defined among animals does not happen in primates. Faux pop-sci twats woth a gimmick to sell decided to use it as a fulcrum for their moneymaking "guides" and it seeped into the general culture by way of plying male insecurity.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: LMNO on May 30, 2014, 05:59:23 PM
I would suggest that the artificial imposition of such power heirarchies in the standard Western business model has had some conditioned effect in a large number of humans.  We may not be "hardwired" for such behaviors, but it sure as hell expresses itself quite often, at least in my experience (anectdotal).
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 30, 2014, 05:59:55 PM
Primates do have hierarchies, but they are fluid and the concept of "alpha" per se simply does not apply. It's kind of misused in the same way laypeople say "chemicals" when they refer to anything they don't like.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: LMNO on May 30, 2014, 06:01:09 PM
Ah.  Gotcha.  Because of quantums.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 30, 2014, 06:01:29 PM
Needless to say, this drives biologists nuts in the same kind of way chemists are irritated by the widespread and completely erroneous use of the words "chemicals" and "toxins" by the general public.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 30, 2014, 06:02:55 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on May 30, 2014, 06:01:09 PM
Ah.  Gotcha.  Because of quantums.

So many quantums. Plus also exponential and organic.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 30, 2014, 06:06:27 PM
It's so ingrained at this point we should just give up.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on May 30, 2014, 06:07:04 PM
Quote from: All-Father Nigel on May 30, 2014, 05:59:55 PM
Primates do have hierarchies, but they are fluid and the concept of "alpha" per se simply does not apply. It's kind of misused in the same way laypeople say "chemicals" when they refer to anything they don't like.

What happens to lab primates in - room full of strangers - scenarios, then? I'm guessing this would be a more accurate reflection?
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: LMNO on May 30, 2014, 06:07:35 PM
Quote from: All-Father Nigel on May 30, 2014, 06:06:27 PM
It's so ingrained at this point we should just give up.

That's just Darwinism at work, that is.



:asshat:
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 30, 2014, 06:08:22 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on May 30, 2014, 06:07:04 PM
Quote from: All-Father Nigel on May 30, 2014, 05:59:55 PM
Primates do have hierarchies, but they are fluid and the concept of "alpha" per se simply does not apply. It's kind of misused in the same way laypeople say "chemicals" when they refer to anything they don't like.

What happens to lab primates in - room full of strangers - scenarios, then? I'm guessing this would be a more accurate reflection?

They get stressed out. Labs are not where you want to be studying primate hierarchical behavior.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 30, 2014, 06:10:19 PM
Actually, I misspoke. Primates do have alphas (in the sense of highest ranking) but that is applicable only when looking at a single troupe, and is comparable to, say, a family with a head of household.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on May 30, 2014, 06:15:36 PM
Quote from: All-Father Nigel on May 30, 2014, 06:08:22 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on May 30, 2014, 06:07:04 PM
Quote from: All-Father Nigel on May 30, 2014, 05:59:55 PM
Primates do have hierarchies, but they are fluid and the concept of "alpha" per se simply does not apply. It's kind of misused in the same way laypeople say "chemicals" when they refer to anything they don't like.

What happens to lab primates in - room full of strangers - scenarios, then? I'm guessing this would be a more accurate reflection?

They get stressed out. Labs are not where you want to be studying primate hierarchical behavior.

Yeah, but surely if you study it in the wild it's more of a natural (extended family?) interaction. The thing with the wolves and the aberrant social conventions. That's what I think we're seeing a bit of in humans. We've developed abstract reasoning but society has evolved really quick and we're living in massive, utterly non-primate groups now. None of this has any precedent, outside insect colonies and they don't got the neocortex to be relevant.

I get that this isn't biologically programmed, it's a function of extended intellect. It's part psychology and part sociology that probably only small inklings of can be gleaned from studying animals at all.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 30, 2014, 08:12:47 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on May 30, 2014, 06:15:36 PM
Quote from: All-Father Nigel on May 30, 2014, 06:08:22 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on May 30, 2014, 06:07:04 PM
Quote from: All-Father Nigel on May 30, 2014, 05:59:55 PM
Primates do have hierarchies, but they are fluid and the concept of "alpha" per se simply does not apply. It's kind of misused in the same way laypeople say "chemicals" when they refer to anything they don't like.

What happens to lab primates in - room full of strangers - scenarios, then? I'm guessing this would be a more accurate reflection?

They get stressed out. Labs are not where you want to be studying primate hierarchical behavior.

Yeah, but surely if you study it in the wild it's more of a natural (extended family?) interaction. The thing with the wolves and the aberrant social conventions. That's what I think we're seeing a bit of in humans. We've developed abstract reasoning but society has evolved really quick and we're living in massive, utterly non-primate groups now. None of this has any precedent, outside insect colonies and they don't got the neocortex to be relevant.

I get that this isn't biologically programmed, it's a function of extended intellect. It's part psychology and part sociology that probably only small inklings of can be gleaned from studying animals at all.

If you want to study it in the wild, you do what Robert Sapolsky and other primatologists did, you go to Africa and observe them. The book is called "A Primate's Memoir".

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at with the "natural" vs. "unnatural" distinction; human beings evolved in large primate groups, that's why we have large primate brains that can track hundreds of social connections. The best animals to observe for studying these interactions are humans.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 30, 2014, 08:23:54 PM
We may live in large cities, but if you look at the habits of most humans, we actually circulate in a smaller community inside the city. Our neighborhood, workplace, gym, school, bar... these are the places we interact with people, and we typically interact with the same people over and over and over again. We form social groups of up to a couple hundred people, with a few hundred more people we are familiar with but don't interact with often.

Where the "alpha" concept really falls apart is in social settings where many people who don't have clearly defined hierarchy interact. You end up generally seeing similar types of people spending time with each other, including so-called "alpha" males forming close friendships, which is not how that dynamic works within the animal kingdom. We humans form hierarchies, but we also form networks, and these networks tend to occur between people of similar social status, which is not translatable into any kind of alpha-beta animal dynamic. Further, because of the way our lives are structured and the complexity of human society, a human being can be high-status in one context and low-status in another.

"Alpha" just doesn't work as a functional descriptive term defining human characteristics. It's as effective and as smart as using "chemicals" to describe substances you don't like and "natural" to describe substances you do like, and just because a lot of people do it doesn't mean they don't sound like idiots.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on May 30, 2014, 08:46:53 PM
Yeah, I get where you're coming from now. It's chicken and egg, I guess. Popular misinformation or misinterpretation meme informs actors who mimic tropes and behaviours thereby reinforcing the meme.

Vicious circle that's been spinning since I first heard about it back the 80's or 90's or whatever.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: LMNO on May 30, 2014, 11:50:26 PM
Nigel, that was a great summary. Thanks.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 31, 2014, 06:18:57 AM
Glad I was able to make sense of it, it's a difficult territory because social status hierarchies are for sure a real thing, but they don't conform readily to the simple dominance hierarchy.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Reginald Ret on May 31, 2014, 12:27:35 PM
Quote from: All-Father Nigel on May 30, 2014, 08:23:54 PM
We may live in large cities, but if you look at the habits of most humans, we actually circulate in a smaller community inside the city. Our neighborhood, workplace, gym, school, bar... these are the places we interact with people, and we typically interact with the same people over and over and over again. We form social groups of up to a couple hundred people, with a few hundred more people we are familiar with but don't interact with often.

Where the "alpha" concept really falls apart is in social settings where many people who don't have clearly defined hierarchy interact. You end up generally seeing similar types of people spending time with each other, including so-called "alpha" males forming close friendships, which is not how that dynamic works within the animal kingdom. We humans form hierarchies, but we also form networks, and these networks tend to occur between people of similar social status, which is not translatable into any kind of alpha-beta animal dynamic. Further, because of the way our lives are structured and the complexity of human society, a human being can be high-status in one context and low-status in another.

"Alpha" just doesn't work as a functional descriptive term defining human characteristics. It's as effective and as smart as using "chemicals" to describe substances you don't like and "natural" to describe substances you do like, and just because a lot of people do it doesn't mean they don't sound like idiots.
:lol:
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Roly Poly Oly-Garch on June 02, 2014, 05:11:15 PM
Quote from: All-Father Nigel on May 30, 2014, 02:38:35 PM
Quote from: Pergamos on May 30, 2014, 08:48:18 AM
PUA's have picked up this idea of alpha and turned it into something toxic.  It's a weird metaphor anyway, since it is borrowed from wolves and their sexual dynamics are very different from ours but I don't think there is anything wrong with alpha people by definition, they just need to be in charge.  Someone who isn't alpha trying to act alpha, either to get laid or for other reasons, is going to act in ways that are not effective, alpha social strategies don't work for betas.  PUA's fetishize the alpha male status (and yes, an alpha male is going to have a greater chance of sex with a more desirable woman) while putting together a list of techniques that are not really related to being alpha in most cases.  I actually think they are more effective at their goal because of that, if their techniques all consisted of aping alpha male behavior they'd just be making themselves creepy.

I'm not a big fan of alphas in social situations, male or female, because they tend to need to control the conversation but I'd much rather have an alpha as a work supervisor than a beta, they are comfortable in a leadership position.  I'm also not personally romantically attracted to alpha females, they're too high maintenance for me.

It's not only based on the social dynamic of wolves, it's based on an artificial and forced captive social dynamic of strange wolves forced together in confinement that doesn't occur naturally in the wild at all.

And it doesn't occur in people. I wish we could just scrub the idea of "alpha" being applied to human beings from our consciousness altogether. It's wrong, and it causes people to think of human dynamics in a wrong way.

Yeah. The assumptions that you'd have to make for 'Alpha' to really be a thing, would have to be so broad as to be practically useless. Basically, you have to completely deny that power is ever dynamic and instead assume that Dominance, Leadership, Persuasiveness, Desirability, Prowess, Respectability, and Status (and probably 50 other descriptors) are all exactly the same thing and fixed across all interactions.

You could certainly paint a barn door pretty quickly with that brush, but it'd be pretty shit for drawing a map.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: axod on June 02, 2014, 07:52:32 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on May 30, 2014, 08:46:53 PM
Yeah, I get where you're coming from now. It's chicken and egg, I guess. Popular misinformation or misinterpretation meme informs actors who mimic tropes and behaviours thereby reinforcing the meme.

Vicious circle that's been spinning since I first heard about it back the 80's or 90's or whatever.

It's a hard skin to shed.  Come to think, also very insidious how it interfaces with the amygdala.  It's like putting on your favorite well-worn snake boots.  Gets hard to tear those suckers off again.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on June 02, 2014, 08:07:05 PM
Quote from: axod on June 02, 2014, 07:52:32 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on May 30, 2014, 08:46:53 PM
Yeah, I get where you're coming from now. It's chicken and egg, I guess. Popular misinformation or misinterpretation meme informs actors who mimic tropes and behaviours thereby reinforcing the meme.

Vicious circle that's been spinning since I first heard about it back the 80's or 90's or whatever.

It's a hard skin to shed.  Come to think, also very insidious how it interfaces with the amygdala.  It's like putting on your favorite well-worn snake boots.  Gets hard to tear those suckers off again.

I'm kinda out of that psychological influence loop nowadays but I'm not most of the population. The annoying thing is that, despite the fact that it's based on a false premise, it's still a model that can be employed to get results. For a given definition of "results". It doesn't have to be founded in reality to work at some other level of abstraction.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 02, 2014, 09:38:55 PM
Interesting observation; very often, the highest-status person in a given situation is not even the one who exhibits the stereotypical "alpha" behaviors as described by PUA-types. In fact, many of those behaviors are simple youthful social jockeying.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 02, 2014, 10:33:39 PM
Quote from: All-Father Nigel on June 02, 2014, 09:38:55 PM
Interesting observation; very often, the highest-status person in a given situation is not even the one who exhibits the stereotypical "alpha" behaviors as described by PUA-types. In fact, many of those behaviors are simple youthful social jockeying.

This.

"Alpha" behaviors are those exhibited by people who still think they're monkeys.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 02, 2014, 10:44:29 PM
"Hey I'm loud and I laugh loud and I talk loud and LOOK AT MEEEEE!!!"
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 02, 2014, 10:48:55 PM
Quote from: All-Father Nigel on June 02, 2014, 10:44:29 PM
"Hey I'm loud and I laugh loud and I talk loud and LOOK AT MEEEEE!!!"

"I am self-consciously callous and mildly sociopathic.  This obviously qualifies me to mate."
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 03, 2014, 12:06:59 AM
Plus a lot of that behavior is just your basic young-person-broadcasting-for-a-mate behavior, irrespective of social status. PUA types seem to have confused "normal youthful social interactions" with "dominance behavior", which is so hilariously wrong I don't even know where to start. It implies that if you are participating in group social interactions, you're "alpha", and that "alphas" travel in packs, which literally makes zero sense.

Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 03, 2014, 12:08:19 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 02, 2014, 10:48:55 PM
Quote from: All-Father Nigel on June 02, 2014, 10:44:29 PM
"Hey I'm loud and I laugh loud and I talk loud and LOOK AT MEEEEE!!!"

"I am self-consciously callous and mildly sociopathic.  This obviously qualifies me to mate."

I honestly think that the reason young people are so loud is mostly because it's a way for them to broadcast their location to one another, increasing the likelihood of finding a mate.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Chelagoras The Boulder on June 03, 2014, 07:26:49 AM
God, i love this thread.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on June 03, 2014, 07:40:29 AM
All it takes is one self styled "alpha", and a room full of self styled "betas", most of whom buy into the theory. Doesn't matter how valid the theory is or isn't, if everyone believes it, it informs the narrative.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: axod on June 03, 2014, 08:55:48 AM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on June 02, 2014, 08:07:05 PM
Quote from: axod on June 02, 2014, 07:52:32 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on May 30, 2014, 08:46:53 PM
Yeah, I get where you're coming from now. It's chicken and egg, I guess. Popular misinformation or misinterpretation meme informs actors who mimic tropes and behaviours thereby reinforcing the meme.

Vicious circle that's been spinning since I first heard about it back the 80's or 90's or whatever.

It's a hard skin to shed.  Come to think, also very insidious how it interfaces with the amygdala.  It's like putting on your favorite well-worn snake boots.  Gets hard to tear those suckers off again.

I'm kinda out of that psychological influence loop nowadays but I'm not most of the population. The annoying thing is that, despite the fact that it's based on a false premise, it's still a model that can be employed to get results. For a given definition of "results". It doesn't have to be founded in reality to work at some other level of abstraction.
It's like that.  At this point the best antidote is just to make fun of the whole thing.  Do the twizler NLP, tell them what it's about.  Occasionally, it's even endearing to see people not even know they're trying to treat me like an object. :lulz:
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 03, 2014, 03:51:03 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on June 03, 2014, 07:40:29 AM
All it takes is one self styled "alpha", and a room full of self styled "betas", most of whom buy into the theory. Doesn't matter how valid the theory is or isn't, if everyone believes it, it informs the narrative.

You used some psychology buzzwords! Good job. :lulz:

Do you really think there is, anywhere outside of a PUA meetup, "a room full of betas" who are aware of/buy into that idiocy?
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on June 03, 2014, 03:57:44 PM
Quote from: All-Father Nigel on June 03, 2014, 03:51:03 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on June 03, 2014, 07:40:29 AM
All it takes is one self styled "alpha", and a room full of self styled "betas", most of whom buy into the theory. Doesn't matter how valid the theory is or isn't, if everyone believes it, it informs the narrative.

You used some psychology buzzwords! Good job. :lulz:

Didn't realise academia had an IP claim. Next time I'll torrent it  :wink:

Quote from: All-Father Nigel on June 03, 2014, 03:51:03 PM
Do you really think there is, anywhere outside of a PUA meetup, "a room full of betas" who are aware of/buy into that idiocy?

Some areas of the business sector, maybe but not as a broad demographic. Wasn't this thread about PUA's or something?
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 03, 2014, 04:02:05 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on June 03, 2014, 03:57:44 PM
Quote from: All-Father Nigel on June 03, 2014, 03:51:03 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on June 03, 2014, 07:40:29 AM
All it takes is one self styled "alpha", and a room full of self styled "betas", most of whom buy into the theory. Doesn't matter how valid the theory is or isn't, if everyone believes it, it informs the narrative.

You used some psychology buzzwords! Good job. :lulz:

Didn't realise academia had an IP claim. Next time I'll torrent it  :wink:

Quote from: All-Father Nigel on June 03, 2014, 03:51:03 PM
Do you really think there is, anywhere outside of a PUA meetup, "a room full of betas" who are aware of/buy into that idiocy?

Some areas of the business sector, maybe but not as a broad demographic. Wasn't this thread about PUA's or something?

Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on May 30, 2014, 05:39:00 PM


By the same token, something that can be kinda looked at that way has permeated vast swathes of our social psychology or whatever correct terminology applies to "the way things work between humans" I don't think the alpha wolves science guys instigated the effect. I think there were probably guys who fit the description of "alpha", existent in societies a long time before all that shenanigans.

Maybe the fact that the wolves were thrown into an unnatural grouping of complete strangers is indicative of the kind of group dynamics that can develop in the interactions of some mammals when exposed to this - room full of strangers - scenario?

Oh, were you back to just talking about PUAs?
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on June 03, 2014, 04:23:10 PM
You honestly saying that the idea of "alphas" is never heard outside PUA meetings? I'm not even sure what I'm supposed to be arguing at this point. It's a mindset. Some people conform to it. Ask a random person what an alpha is and you're as likely to get a story about wolves or silverbacks or some shit. I'm not saying it's not ill informed but I was under the impression it's a fairly common misconception.

So is it ridiculous to imagine that some non-pua guys might get it in their heads they'll be an alpha when they grow up? Is it within the realms of possibility that other, less assertive guys, upon encountering these self styled alphas will respond according to how they think betas should behave.

Think of a sales staff, not all of them, just this one and they self organise into proect teams. So Alpha-guy joins the crew and most of the office takes one look and thinks "wank" but a couple of the geeky ones buy into his buzzcut and 6-pack and tales of unlimited poontang and follow him around like wolf cubs. My contention is that if they've all bought into the story about the wolves, they'll act that shit out.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Junkenstein on June 03, 2014, 05:08:00 PM
Quote from: All-Father Nigel on June 03, 2014, 03:51:03 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on June 03, 2014, 07:40:29 AM
All it takes is one self styled "alpha", and a room full of self styled "betas", most of whom buy into the theory. Doesn't matter how valid the theory is or isn't, if everyone believes it, it informs the narrative.

You used some psychology buzzwords! Good job. :lulz:

Do you really think there is, anywhere outside of a PUA meetup, "a room full of betas" who are aware of/buy into that idiocy?

4Chan(hell, most chans), Reddit, BBC comments section, anywhere people can type stupid things into the internet.

I'd guess if you asked people "What is an Alpha Male" they'd probably respond relating it to human behavior in 75%+ of cases. I'll ask the next couple of dozen people I see out of curiosity but I'm fairly confident. If anyone else cares to test that it could be somewhat informative.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 03, 2014, 05:22:06 PM
What's funny is, by the definition these yahoos use, I am a beta.

I do nice things for my wife because I like it when my wife is happy.  Not because it gets me anything, but her being happy makes ME happy.  For it's own sake.

What's funny is, that also got me everything *I* wanted, without being a shitneck.  No domination, no manipulation.  The very essence of a "beta".  And I'm okay with that, because I'm happy and the "alphas" spend all day wondering why their strategy isn't panning out like it should.

Because if you think about it, what is the prize for being a "successful" alpha?  Oh, yeah.  A series of one night stands that gets more and more pathetic as time goes by and their hairlines recede.

Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on June 03, 2014, 05:47:53 PM
No arguments there. I simply don't involve myself in the pschodrama. Something about conforming to an intellectual model based on a type of dog didn't appeal. Go figure.  :lulz:
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Reginald Ret on June 03, 2014, 10:22:40 PM
Quote from: All-Father Nigel on June 03, 2014, 12:06:59 AM
Plus a lot of that behavior is just your basic young-person-broadcasting-for-a-mate behavior, irrespective of social status. PUA types seem to have confused "normal youthful social interactions" with "dominance behavior", which is so hilariously wrong I don't even know where to start. It implies that if you are participating in group social interactions, you're "alpha", and that "alphas" travel in packs, which literally makes zero sense.
This is a ridiculous concept and anyone who believes it should try to herd some alpha wolves.

Quote from: All-Father Nigel on June 03, 2014, 12:08:19 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 02, 2014, 10:48:55 PM
Quote from: All-Father Nigel on June 02, 2014, 10:44:29 PM
"Hey I'm loud and I laugh loud and I talk loud and LOOK AT MEEEEE!!!"

"I am self-consciously callous and mildly sociopathic.  This obviously qualifies me to mate."

I honestly think that the reason young people are so loud is mostly because it's a way for them to broadcast their location to one another, increasing the likelihood of finding a mate.

This makes a lot of sense. I think many so called complex human issues have a simple answer like this.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 03, 2014, 10:43:43 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 03, 2014, 05:22:06 PM
What's funny is, by the definition these yahoos use, I am a beta.

I do nice things for my wife because I like it when my wife is happy.  Not because it gets me anything, but her being happy makes ME happy.  For it's own sake.

What's funny is, that also got me everything *I* wanted, without being a shitneck.  No domination, no manipulation.  The very essence of a "beta".  And I'm okay with that, because I'm happy and the "alphas" spend all day wondering why their strategy isn't panning out like it should.

Because if you think about it, what is the prize for being a "successful" alpha?  Oh, yeah.  A series of one night stands that gets more and more pathetic as time goes by and their hairlines recede.

Bingo.

I think that key to their failure is the fact that they've conflated dominance and social skills in the first place. They can't find mates because they can't relate to other people, period. It's really sad, and is probably a true disability.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 03, 2014, 10:45:13 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on June 03, 2014, 05:08:00 PM
Quote from: All-Father Nigel on June 03, 2014, 03:51:03 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on June 03, 2014, 07:40:29 AM
All it takes is one self styled "alpha", and a room full of self styled "betas", most of whom buy into the theory. Doesn't matter how valid the theory is or isn't, if everyone believes it, it informs the narrative.

You used some psychology buzzwords! Good job. :lulz:

Do you really think there is, anywhere outside of a PUA meetup, "a room full of betas" who are aware of/buy into that idiocy?

4Chan(hell, most chans), Reddit, BBC comments section, anywhere people can type stupid things into the internet.

I'd guess if you asked people "What is an Alpha Male" they'd probably respond relating it to human behavior in 75%+ of cases. I'll ask the next couple of dozen people I see out of curiosity but I'm fairly confident. If anyone else cares to test that it could be somewhat informative.

Oh, I didn't realize the Internet was a room. I beg your pardon.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Junkenstein on June 03, 2014, 11:06:22 PM
Sorry, you need actual real world places where men go and talk nonsense about shit they don't know? Well, that sounds like every bar, pub or club I've ever had the misfortune to pass through. It may not have been this exact language but the overall meaning is pretty much the same. I'd put money I don't have on it being updated over the years.

More than a few workplaces as well, now that I think on it. Pretty much anywhere people can communicate, I reckon that rough percentage will stand.

I did also say that I'd ask the next few people I meet this question. Perhaps you'd consider doing the same?

Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 03, 2014, 11:07:18 PM
Quote from: All-Father Nigel on June 03, 2014, 10:45:13 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on June 03, 2014, 05:08:00 PM
Quote from: All-Father Nigel on June 03, 2014, 03:51:03 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on June 03, 2014, 07:40:29 AM
All it takes is one self styled "alpha", and a room full of self styled "betas", most of whom buy into the theory. Doesn't matter how valid the theory is or isn't, if everyone believes it, it informs the narrative.

You used some psychology buzzwords! Good job. :lulz:

Do you really think there is, anywhere outside of a PUA meetup, "a room full of betas" who are aware of/buy into that idiocy?

4Chan(hell, most chans), Reddit, BBC comments section, anywhere people can type stupid things into the internet.

I'd guess if you asked people "What is an Alpha Male" they'd probably respond relating it to human behavior in 75%+ of cases. I'll ask the next couple of dozen people I see out of curiosity but I'm fairly confident. If anyone else cares to test that it could be somewhat informative.

Oh, I didn't realize the Internet was a room. I beg your pardon.

It is a collection of tubes.

In a room.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 03, 2014, 11:10:00 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on June 03, 2014, 11:06:22 PM
Sorry, you need actual real world places where men go and talk nonsense about shit they don't know? Well, that sounds like every bar, pub or club I've ever had the misfortune to pass through. It may not have been this exact language but the overall meaning is pretty much the same. I'd put money I don't have on it being updated over the years.

More than a few workplaces as well, now that I think on it. Pretty much anywhere people can communicate, I reckon that rough percentage will stand.

I did also say that I'd ask the next few people I meet this question. Perhaps you'd consider doing the same?

Words. They mean something.

Quote from: All-Father Nigel on June 03, 2014, 03:51:03 PM
Do you really think there is, anywhere outside of a PUA meetup, "a room full of betas" who are aware of/buy into that idiocy?

If you find a room full of people who identify themselves as betas, congratulations, you are in a PUA meeting.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 03, 2014, 11:10:55 PM
Quote from: All-Father Nigel on June 03, 2014, 11:10:00 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on June 03, 2014, 11:06:22 PM
Sorry, you need actual real world places where men go and talk nonsense about shit they don't know? Well, that sounds like every bar, pub or club I've ever had the misfortune to pass through. It may not have been this exact language but the overall meaning is pretty much the same. I'd put money I don't have on it being updated over the years.

More than a few workplaces as well, now that I think on it. Pretty much anywhere people can communicate, I reckon that rough percentage will stand.

I did also say that I'd ask the next few people I meet this question. Perhaps you'd consider doing the same?

Words. They mean something.

Quote from: All-Father Nigel on June 03, 2014, 03:51:03 PM
Do you really think there is, anywhere outside of a PUA meetup, "a room full of betas" who are aware of/buy into that idiocy?

If you find a room full of people who identify themselves as betas, congratulations, you are in a PUA meeting.

Or a Huxley novel. 
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Junkenstein on June 03, 2014, 11:19:45 PM
Quote from: All-Father Nigel on June 03, 2014, 11:10:00 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on June 03, 2014, 11:06:22 PM
Sorry, you need actual real world places where men go and talk nonsense about shit they don't know? Well, that sounds like every bar, pub or club I've ever had the misfortune to pass through. It may not have been this exact language but the overall meaning is pretty much the same. I'd put money I don't have on it being updated over the years.

More than a few workplaces as well, now that I think on it. Pretty much anywhere people can communicate, I reckon that rough percentage will stand.

I did also say that I'd ask the next few people I meet this question. Perhaps you'd consider doing the same?

Words. They mean something.

Quote from: All-Father Nigel on June 03, 2014, 03:51:03 PM
Do you really think there is, anywhere outside of a PUA meetup, "a room full of betas" who are aware of/buy into that idiocy?

If you find a room full of people who identify themselves as betas, congratulations, you are in a PUA meeting.

Well, yes, words mean things. If people are saying words with similar meetings in relatively similar contexts (Bars and this kind of behavior were PUA environments before the term existed, surely? No seedy or singles bars in the US?) why am I wrong to equate meanings and compare?

edit - What I'm trying to get at is I suspect this kind of mindset is probably a lot more prevalent than you may think. It's surely got a decent chance of occurring anywhere you get people. I was saying that I'd guess most people would reference "celebrity/sport figure" as an "Alpha male" before talking about anything not human.

edit - scrubbed. Uncalled for and apologies if you saw it.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 03, 2014, 11:46:58 PM
Well, as always, thank you for speaking for Pent, as well as for letting me know what I really meant. Always a pleasure.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 03, 2014, 11:49:20 PM
It's not like I could possibly have been replying to this:

Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on June 03, 2014, 07:40:29 AM
All it takes is one self styled "alpha", and a room full of self styled "betas", most of whom buy into the theory. Doesn't matter how valid the theory is or isn't, if everyone believes it, it informs the narrative.

Oh wait, I quoted it in my reply. Never mind.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Junkenstein on June 03, 2014, 11:50:27 PM
I'll just shut up then.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Chelagoras The Boulder on June 04, 2014, 12:00:22 AM
Well, i think it's more than possible for there to be guys who see themselves  within that alpha/beta dynamic. Not even out of wanting to be a PUA, but more out of insecurity. Guys who struggle or dont fit into the male gender role (1 part Don Draper+ 1 part Jersey Shore- Mix until slimy) and for whatever reason also struggle to meet women see the guys who DO look like "alphas" who have women around them and they think that guy is supposed to be the ideal; the thing they're supposed to be to be a "real man". The theory, whether valid or not (its not) serves as a way to explain their situation and even avoid having to ask hard questions about why they struggle to connect with people. It's easier to say "if i only knew these techniques, and dressed this way, and acted like this, i'd get laid/have a girlfriend" than it is to do self-improvement and refine social skills.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 04, 2014, 04:22:43 AM
Quote from: Chelagoras The Lust-Driven Dickwolf on June 04, 2014, 12:00:22 AM
Well, i think it's more than possible for there to be guys who see themselves  within that alpha/beta dynamic. Not even out of wanting to be a PUA, but more out of insecurity. Guys who struggle or dont fit into the male gender role (1 part Don Draper+ 1 part Jersey Shore- Mix until slimy) and for whatever reason also struggle to meet women see the guys who DO look like "alphas" who have women around them and they think that guy is supposed to be the ideal; the thing they're supposed to be to be a "real man". The theory, whether valid or not (its not) serves as a way to explain their situation and even avoid having to ask hard questions about why they struggle to connect with people. It's easier to say "if i only knew these techniques, and dressed this way, and acted like this, i'd get laid/have a girlfriend" than it is to do self-improvement and refine social skills.

We all know there are people who see themselves in that dynamic, even though it's a bullshit model. There are also people who think chemtrails are the government's way of vaccinating and thereby poisoning the population. Nobody is debating the existence of people who think that way.

I am, however, starting to personally debate the reading comprehension level of some of the members of the board.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 04, 2014, 04:24:19 AM
Fuck "context" and "literal meaning of sentences", I'll just reply to what I wish you had said so my point would be valid!
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Pergamos on June 04, 2014, 09:44:46 PM
room full of betas = room full of "nice guys"

Alpha and beta get used a lot outside of PUA, they're part of pop psychology.  A friend of mine had a book called "why you should marry a beta" it ws partly humorous, but not entirely, and didn't seem to have sprung out of PUA stuff at all.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 04, 2014, 10:29:30 PM
Quote from: Pergamos on June 04, 2014, 09:44:46 PM
room full of betas = room full of "nice guys"

Alpha and beta get used a lot outside of PUA, they're part of pop psychology.  A friend of mine had a book called "why you should marry a beta" it ws partly humorous, but not entirely, and didn't seem to have sprung out of PUA stuff at all.

Yes. The terms are used outside of PUA. Nobody said they weren't. And there might even be other context where a room full of people who think of themselves as "betas" exist. Fuck context, man, just fuck it completely. I think I'll take a sentence from something you said while conversing with someone else and argue with it without regard to the rest of the conversation, that'll totally make sense and it probably won't irritate you AT ALL.

Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 04, 2014, 10:30:33 PM
It'll be even more fun if several people do it.

This conversation doesn't even make sense anymore. Good job! 23fnord!
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Chelagoras The Boulder on June 04, 2014, 11:14:57 PM
Well would you clarify what you mean by that? It seems that more than one of us have misinterpreted your posts
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 04, 2014, 11:23:00 PM
Quote from: Chelagoras The Lust-Driven Dickwolf on June 04, 2014, 11:14:57 PM
Well would you clarify what you mean by that? It seems that more than one of us have misinterpreted your posts

Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on June 03, 2014, 03:51:03 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on June 03, 2014, 07:40:29 AM
All it takes is one self styled "alpha", and a room full of self styled "betas", most of whom buy into the theory. Doesn't matter how valid the theory is or isn't, if everyone believes it, it informs the narrative.

Do you really think there is, anywhere outside of a PUA meetup, "a room full of betas" who are aware of/buy into that idiocy?

Was any of that exchange really that hard to understand? I can't quite wrap my head around what there is to misunderstand. A self-styled "alpha" in a room full of self-styled "betas"... I doubt that scenario happens much, if at all, outside of PUA meetings. Is there something incredibly debatable or hard to absorb about that idea? It's not a metaphor for anything that I'm aware of.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 04, 2014, 11:24:26 PM
But why bother reading the whole thread when you can just take a quoted sentence out of context and attempt to debate it in a way that bears no relationship to the conversation? That shit's for sissies.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Chelagoras The Boulder on June 04, 2014, 11:32:48 PM
Oh. Well then in that case, yes. Yes i do believe that scenario happens. Like, all the time.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 04, 2014, 11:41:28 PM
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on June 04, 2014, 11:24:26 PM
But why bother reading the whole thread when you can just take a quoted sentence out of context and attempt to debate it in a way that bears no relationship to the conversation? That shit's for sissies.
Quote from: Chelagoras The Lust-Driven Dickwolf on June 04, 2014, 11:32:48 PM
Oh. Well then in that case, yes. Yes i do believe that scenario happens. Like, all the time.

I agree completely.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Pæs on June 04, 2014, 11:50:48 PM
This thread... Reaction/info/derailment. Does what it says on the box.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on June 05, 2014, 12:15:59 AM
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on June 04, 2014, 11:23:00 PM
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on June 03, 2014, 03:51:03 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on June 03, 2014, 07:40:29 AM
All it takes is one self styled "alpha", and a room full of self styled "betas", most of whom buy into the theory. Doesn't matter how valid the theory is or isn't, if everyone believes it, it informs the narrative.

Do you really think there is, anywhere outside of a PUA meetup, "a room full of betas" who are aware of/buy into that idiocy?

Was any of that exchange really that hard to understand? I can't quite wrap my head around what there is to misunderstand. A self-styled "alpha" in a room full of self-styled "betas"... I doubt that scenario happens much, if at all, outside of PUA meetings. Is there something incredibly debatable or hard to absorb about that idea? It's not a metaphor for anything that I'm aware of.

Perhaps people are so caught up on that "room full of betas" bit that they're forgetting this excellent post:

Quote from: All-Father Nigel on May 30, 2014, 08:23:54 PM
[...]

Where the "alpha" concept really falls apart is in social settings where many people who don't have clearly defined hierarchy interact. You end up generally seeing similar types of people spending time with each other, including so-called "alpha" males forming close friendships, which is not how that dynamic works within the animal kingdom. We humans form hierarchies, but we also form networks, and these networks tend to occur between people of similar social status, which is not translatable into any kind of alpha-beta animal dynamic. Further, because of the way our lives are structured and the complexity of human society, a human being can be high-status in one context and low-status in another.

"Alpha" just doesn't work as a functional descriptive term defining human characteristics. It's as effective and as smart as using "chemicals" to describe substances you don't like and "natural" to describe substances you do like, and just because a lot of people do it doesn't mean they don't sound like idiots.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Chelagoras The Boulder on June 05, 2014, 01:12:05 AM
O i completely agree that the dynamic falls apart at any level of close scrutiny, but i would also point out that something being a bad idea has never been a perfect barrier for people to not buy into it. Further, while yes certain individuals can occupy both high and low status positions within the complexity of human society, what matters is the individuals self perceptions of his own worth. If a particular man is by all accounts a kind person, a stalwart friend, and accomplished in his field for example it is still possible for him to see his struggles in the arena of finding a partner within this dynamic. Even if he has all these other things are going well in his life, he may even chalk up his shit luck at meeting women to the fact that the guys who are picking up women have something he doesn't- whether that's "being an alpha", or "manifesting the King archetype", or some other pseudo-philosophical bullshit, men tend to find a way to explain their experiences with women. Alpha/beta males just happens to be the most prevalent because its selling the most PUA technique books.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 05, 2014, 05:29:44 AM
Quote from: Net (+ 1 Hidden) on June 05, 2014, 12:15:59 AM
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on June 04, 2014, 11:23:00 PM
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on June 03, 2014, 03:51:03 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on June 03, 2014, 07:40:29 AM
All it takes is one self styled "alpha", and a room full of self styled "betas", most of whom buy into the theory. Doesn't matter how valid the theory is or isn't, if everyone believes it, it informs the narrative.

Do you really think there is, anywhere outside of a PUA meetup, "a room full of betas" who are aware of/buy into that idiocy?

Was any of that exchange really that hard to understand? I can't quite wrap my head around what there is to misunderstand. A self-styled "alpha" in a room full of self-styled "betas"... I doubt that scenario happens much, if at all, outside of PUA meetings. Is there something incredibly debatable or hard to absorb about that idea? It's not a metaphor for anything that I'm aware of.

Perhaps people are so caught up on that "room full of betas" bit that they're forgetting this excellent post:

Quote from: All-Father Nigel on May 30, 2014, 08:23:54 PM
[...]

Where the "alpha" concept really falls apart is in social settings where many people who don't have clearly defined hierarchy interact. You end up generally seeing similar types of people spending time with each other, including so-called "alpha" males forming close friendships, which is not how that dynamic works within the animal kingdom. We humans form hierarchies, but we also form networks, and these networks tend to occur between people of similar social status, which is not translatable into any kind of alpha-beta animal dynamic. Further, because of the way our lives are structured and the complexity of human society, a human being can be high-status in one context and low-status in another.

"Alpha" just doesn't work as a functional descriptive term defining human characteristics. It's as effective and as smart as using "chemicals" to describe substances you don't like and "natural" to describe substances you do like, and just because a lot of people do it doesn't mean they don't sound like idiots.

Thanks, Net!
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 05, 2014, 05:30:21 AM
Quote from: Chelagoras The Lust-Driven Dickwolf on June 05, 2014, 01:12:05 AM
O i completely agree that the dynamic falls apart at any level of close scrutiny, but i would also point out that something being a bad idea has never been a perfect barrier for people to not buy into it. Further, while yes certain individuals can occupy both high and low status positions within the complexity of human society, what matters is the individuals self perceptions of his own worth. If a particular man is by all accounts a kind person, a stalwart friend, and accomplished in his field for example it is still possible for him to see his struggles in the arena of finding a partner within this dynamic. Even if he has all these other things are going well in his life, he may even chalk up his shit luck at meeting women to the fact that the guys who are picking up women have something he doesn't- whether that's "being an alpha", or "manifesting the King archetype", or some other pseudo-philosophical bullshit, men tend to find a way to explain their experiences with women. Alpha/beta males just happens to be the most prevalent because its selling the most PUA technique books.

I don't think that there's any argument about that here.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 05, 2014, 05:32:25 AM
I don't know if it's totally redundant for me to add that within the alpha-beta hierarchical schema, the concept of "a room full of betas" is inherently contradictory in the same manner as is a pack of alphas?
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 05, 2014, 02:10:35 PM
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on June 05, 2014, 05:32:25 AM
I don't know if it's totally redundant for me to add that within the alpha-beta hierarchical schema, the concept of "a room full of betas" is inherently contradictory in the same manner as is a pack of alphas?

We Doktors refer to that as "Every guy in the bar except me and why won't these girls talk to me instead of all THOSE losers, shut up."
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 05, 2014, 07:02:59 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 05, 2014, 02:10:35 PM
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on June 05, 2014, 05:32:25 AM
I don't know if it's totally redundant for me to add that within the alpha-beta hierarchical schema, the concept of "a room full of betas" is inherently contradictory in the same manner as is a pack of alphas?

We Doktors refer to that as "Every guy in the bar except me and why won't these girls talk to me instead of all THOSE losers, shut up."

:lulz:
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 05, 2014, 07:25:43 PM
I was actually just wondering about the likelihood that a fair amount of people have erroneously connected the idea of "alpha" to type A personality, and "beta" to type B personality, even though they're unrelated.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 05, 2014, 07:30:59 PM
Quote from: Pæs on June 04, 2014, 11:50:48 PM
This thread... Reaction/info/derailment. Does what it says on the box.

:lulz:
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Ben Shapiro on June 06, 2014, 12:58:40 AM
This thread turned out better than I thought.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: East Coast Hustle on June 06, 2014, 02:52:50 PM
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on June 04, 2014, 11:23:00 PM
Quote from: Chelagoras The Lust-Driven Dickwolf on June 04, 2014, 11:14:57 PM
Well would you clarify what you mean by that? It seems that more than one of us have misinterpreted your posts

Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on June 03, 2014, 03:51:03 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on June 03, 2014, 07:40:29 AM
All it takes is one self styled "alpha", and a room full of self styled "betas", most of whom buy into the theory. Doesn't matter how valid the theory is or isn't, if everyone believes it, it informs the narrative.

Do you really think there is, anywhere outside of a PUA meetup, "a room full of betas" who are aware of/buy into that idiocy?

Was any of that exchange really that hard to understand? I can't quite wrap my head around what there is to misunderstand. A self-styled "alpha" in a room full of self-styled "betas"... I doubt that scenario happens much, if at all, outside of PUA meetings. Is there something incredibly debatable or hard to absorb about that idea? It's not a metaphor for anything that I'm aware of.

I think everyone you're accusing of lacking reading comprehension is, in fact, relating that they do think that happens quite frequently outside of PUA meetups (the very idea of which makes me want to take a shower).

I don't think asking for anecdotal evidence and then dismissing it out of hand as "out of context" is a particularly useful debate technique, but YMMV.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: East Coast Hustle on June 06, 2014, 02:54:23 PM
I should really start reading to the end of threads before I reply to anything in them. :lulz:
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 06, 2014, 03:02:47 PM
 :lol:
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: axod on June 17, 2014, 04:29:02 AM
What gets me is how endearing the whole concept is about a PUA support group, however I am loathe to admit it.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on June 17, 2014, 05:35:19 AM
Quote from: axod on June 17, 2014, 04:29:02 AM
What gets me is how endearing the whole concept is about a PUA support group, however I am loathe to admit it.

Oh yeah. Totally tugs at the heart strings. There's nothing more adorable than a group of assholes who think of women as game pieces and sexual encounters as points to be scored in an unfathomably stupid, pathetic game masquerading as a lifestyle.

Except maybe rabid puppies with lyme disease.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 17, 2014, 05:38:03 AM
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on June 17, 2014, 05:35:19 AM
Quote from: axod on June 17, 2014, 04:29:02 AM
What gets me is how endearing the whole concept is about a PUA support group, however I am loathe to admit it.

Oh yeah. Totally tugs at the heart strings. There's nothing more adorable than a group of assholes who think of women as game pieces and sexual encounters as points to be scored in an unfathomably stupid, pathetic game masquerading as a lifestyle.

Except maybe rabid puppies with lyme disease.

:lulz:
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 17, 2014, 05:38:56 AM
You know what's really heartwarming? The violent offenders wing at the state penitentiary. There's just something so sweet about it.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Reginald Ret on June 17, 2014, 03:06:54 PM
Well, I have to agree with axod in part at least.
They are as clueless as an especially dense newborn puppy.
And cluelessness is a cuteness multiplier.

It makes me want to say in a grandma-like patronizing tone 'Oh you had sex with some random girl? That's nice dear.'.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on June 17, 2014, 09:50:23 PM
Quote from: Regret on June 17, 2014, 03:06:54 PM
Well, I have to agree with axod in part at least.
They are as clueless as an especially dense newborn puppy.
And cluelessness is a cuteness multiplier.

It makes me want to say in a grandma-like patronizing tone 'Oh you had sex with some random girl? That's nice dear.'.

"Oh, you're proud of yourself for degrading and manipulating someone for the sole purpose of fucking her? That's nice, dear. You should run for Congress."
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 17, 2014, 10:28:08 PM
The difference being, puppies have empathy.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on June 17, 2014, 11:21:00 PM
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on June 17, 2014, 10:28:08 PM
The difference being, puppies have empathy.

Yepper-doodles. And puppies are less likely to be drenched in Axe.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 17, 2014, 11:42:49 PM
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on June 17, 2014, 11:21:00 PM
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on June 17, 2014, 10:28:08 PM
The difference being, puppies have empathy.

Yepper-doodles. And puppies are less likely to be drenched in Axe.

Thanks fuck, that shit just nasty.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on June 17, 2014, 11:55:31 PM
You ain't kidding.

Protip: When your psuedo-cologne arrives to the party ten minutes before you do, you're doing it wrong.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Reginald Ret on June 18, 2014, 09:16:39 PM
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on June 17, 2014, 11:42:49 PM
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on June 17, 2014, 11:21:00 PM
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on June 17, 2014, 10:28:08 PM
The difference being, puppies have empathy.

Yepper-doodles. And puppies are less likely to be drenched in Axe.

Thanks fuck, that shit just nasty.
:lol:
I used to wear Axe and i agree.

I still think ineffective bigots are cute though. As long as they don't actually hurt someone i'm fine with them wallowing in their own inadequacy.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 18, 2014, 09:53:22 PM
Quote from: Regret on June 18, 2014, 09:16:39 PM
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on June 17, 2014, 11:42:49 PM
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on June 17, 2014, 11:21:00 PM
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on June 17, 2014, 10:28:08 PM
The difference being, puppies have empathy.

Yepper-doodles. And puppies are less likely to be drenched in Axe.

Thanks fuck, that shit just nasty.
:lol:
I used to wear Axe and i agree.

I still think ineffective bigots are cute though. As long as they don't actually hurt someone i'm fine with them wallowing in their own inadequacy.

Once upon a time, people wore Brute.  Willingly.

Your generation is DUMB, but not as DUMB as mine.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: LMNO on June 18, 2014, 10:42:19 PM
But it was by Faberge!


And nowhere near as bad as Drakkar Noir.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 19, 2014, 12:56:27 AM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on June 18, 2014, 10:42:19 PM
But it was by Faberge!


And nowhere near as bad as Drakkar Noir.

It was the 70s/80s in a can.  Horrible, horrible.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 19, 2014, 01:20:30 AM
My 80's perfume was this highly classy number:

(http://www.fragrancex.com/images/products/parent/medium/358W.jpg)

Yep.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Aucoq on June 19, 2014, 02:11:00 AM
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on June 19, 2014, 01:20:30 AM
My 80's perfume was this highly classy number:

(http://www.fragrancex.com/images/products/parent/medium/358W.jpg)

Yep.

It definitely screams "80's."  :lol:
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on June 19, 2014, 02:51:14 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 18, 2014, 09:53:22 PM
Quote from: Regret on June 18, 2014, 09:16:39 PM
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on June 17, 2014, 11:42:49 PM
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on June 17, 2014, 11:21:00 PM
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on June 17, 2014, 10:28:08 PM
The difference being, puppies have empathy.

Yepper-doodles. And puppies are less likely to be drenched in Axe.

Thanks fuck, that shit just nasty.
:lol:
I used to wear Axe and i agree.

I still think ineffective bigots are cute though. As long as they don't actually hurt someone i'm fine with them wallowing in their own inadequacy.

Once upon a time, people wore Brute.  Willingly.

Your generation is DUMB, but not as DUMB as mine.

My dad wears Brute. To this day. Religiously. As deodorant, cologne, shaving cream. Whole nine. It's horrible. Horrible.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Cainad (dec.) on June 23, 2014, 11:59:56 AM
This thread went bananas while I wasn't looking.

Okay so the bottom line is that we have a really deep-rooted set of memes about masculinity (and, correspondingly, misogyny) that are manifesting in a subset of men who become very focused on their own (sexual) disillusionment. This focus results in phony "solutions" that rely on an Us-vs-Them mentality that rings true with our culture's obsession with competition and dominance, but which demands a lack of empathy for women and tries to strip them of agency.

It would just be pathetic and kind of shitty, but the result of this is two types of men: Manipulative, likely sociopathic assholes who would probably be like this anyway and have, to put it generously, a very rapey ideal for sexual relationships. The other type of men are the sad saps who buy into the mentality, but lo and behold it doesn't actually work because, surprise, it's bullshit and based on totally dysfunctional theories of human interaction.

So at both ends of the spectrum, you get subsets of the male population who are probably making life worse for women, either directly or indirectly. This situation blows chunks out of monkey's ass and it would be totally rad if we found effective ways to counteract this crap.

Where do we go from here?
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 23, 2014, 04:21:45 PM
Wow, very nice synopsis, Cainad! I'm not sure where we go from here, honestly. I tell men and boys the same thing, consistently, which is that if you want to eventually have a relationship with a woman, start by making friends with women. Real, actual, care-about-their-feelings-and-experiences friends, without sexual expectations.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Cainad (dec.) on June 23, 2014, 04:47:50 PM
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on June 23, 2014, 04:21:45 PM
Wow, very nice synopsis, Cainad! I'm not sure where we go from here, honestly. I tell men and boys the same thing, consistently, which is that if you want to eventually have a relationship with a woman, start by making friends with women. Real, actual, care-about-their-feelings-and-experiences friends, without sexual expectations.

It's a good start, and ultimately that's the exact message that needs to get through.

I think it's the "without sexual expectations" part that is the most thorny. Sure, teenage boys and young men can be horny and disappointed that they aren't getting any, but more central to the problem is the idea that being turned down represents a failure to them. Since they usually don't want to internalize the idea that they "failed" to get laid, they lay blame on the girl/woman for being too selfish to see what a great and fuckable guy they are.

The cognitive dissonance, of course, is pretty easy to digest when you're both horny and trying to assuage a completely unjustified sense of failure. I think it's important to bring it to light and emphasize that "being a nice friend" and "demanding sex" are incompatible ideas.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Junkenstein on June 23, 2014, 05:02:09 PM
That's another part of things, the whole success/failure dynamic and language. When you think about a lot of the terms related to sex there's a lot of win/lose kind of language.

I'm pretty sure humans shouldn't feel proud that they've convinced someone to fuck them. For one, consider that this is basically saying that you don't give a fuck about the other person. They're just meat. Secondly, shouldn't this be a mutually enjoyable thing? Many terms again put emphasis on male enjoyment which at best seems unfair.

Again, rambling and no better point beyond the language we use a lot of the time in these situations is fucked and probably needs a serious societal shift which I have fuck all idea how to bring about.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on June 23, 2014, 05:55:15 PM
Too bad there isn't an effective way to communicate "Women/minorities/etc are people too. And not just there for whatever purpose you require." Sex, token friend, status boost, street cred, whatever.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Chelagoras The Boulder on June 23, 2014, 06:02:01 PM
Quote from: Cainad (dec.) on June 23, 2014, 04:47:50 PM
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on June 23, 2014, 04:21:45 PM
Wow, very nice synopsis, Cainad! I'm not sure where we go from here, honestly. I tell men and boys the same thing, consistently, which is that if you want to eventually have a relationship with a woman, start by making friends with women. Real, actual, care-about-their-feelings-and-experiences friends, without sexual expectations.

It's a good start, and ultimately that's the exact message that needs to get through.

I think it's the "without sexual expectations" part that is the most thorny. Sure, teenage boys and young men can be horny and disappointed that they aren't getting any, but more central to the problem is the idea that being turned down represents a failure to them. Since they usually don't want to internalize the idea that they "failed" to get laid, they lay blame on the girl/woman for being too selfish to see what a great and fuckable guy they are.

The cognitive dissonance, of course, is pretty easy to digest when you're both horny and trying to assuage a completely unjustified sense of failure. I think it's important to bring it to light and emphasize that "being a nice friend" and "demanding sex" are incompatible ideas.
also consider for a moment how "being a nice friend" while not demanding sex is supported in our culture, or more accurately, how it's not. Even if a guy is comfortable having that sort of relationship with a woman, people around that situation see it as pathetic, because men are supposed to demand sex. This is every Micheal Cera movie ever made, the guy starts as a nice, well-intentioned guy but the rest of the plot either revolves around the wacky obstacles one has to go through to get laid, or how he has to find another girl who doesn't "use" him, because the end goal has to be sex.
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on June 23, 2014, 05:55:15 PM
Too bad there isn't an effective way to communicate "Women/minorities/etc are people too. And not just there for whatever purpose you require." Sex, token friend, status boost, street cred, whatever.
I think there needs to be a change in how we set up expectations of love and sex in movies and media, since that's often where we construct them before we actually start dating.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Junkenstein on June 23, 2014, 06:05:02 PM
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on June 23, 2014, 05:55:15 PM
Too bad there isn't an effective way to communicate "Women/minorities/etc are people too. And not just there for whatever purpose you require." Sex, token friend, status boost, street cred, whatever.

It's even worse that this even needs to be communicated at all.

I'd have hoped the concept of "People are people too" would have been grasped by now. Sadly not.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on June 23, 2014, 07:23:31 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on June 23, 2014, 05:02:09 PM
That's another part of things, the whole success/failure dynamic and language. When you think about a lot of the terms related to sex there's a lot of win/lose kind of language.

I'm pretty sure humans shouldn't feel proud that they've convinced someone to fuck them. For one, consider that this is basically saying that you don't give a fuck about the other person. They're just meat. Secondly, shouldn't this be a mutually enjoyable thing? Many terms again put emphasis on male enjoyment which at best seems unfair.

Again, rambling and no better point beyond the language we use a lot of the time in these situations is fucked and probably needs a serious societal shift which I have fuck all idea how to bring about.

I realize that its a faux pas to point this out, but have you considered that maybe people arent brainwashed into wanting sex? PUA culture isnt about wanting sex anymore than its about wanting women. Its about going after status. These are people who are trying desperately to achieve some kind of self worth, to feel like they arent losers. Taking away the symbolic association of sex and women with status, aside from being completely impossible, doesnt fix the underlying problem. All youve done is taken away one compensatory thing for another. Just because you make people accept that not having sex doesnt make you a loser, it wont make these people feel less like losers. These people are losers for entirely different reasons, reasons that sex will never fix. Thats why they need a little mental scorecard in their head of all the chicks theyve fucked, its something to point to "You see! Im not a worthless waste of carbon!"

As for this leading to "manipulative sociopathic men". If youre talking about larger cultural issues, I guess...? Empathy isnt one of Americas strong suites. Someone who is a manipulative sociopath in pursuit of one area is probably going to be a manipulative sociopath in other areas. Sociopathy has a way of leaking. If youre talking about PUA I dont buy it for a second. The reason is because these dweebs very gladly define themselves as "manipulative sociopaths", its an image. Its what they WANT to be. And the fact that they have to go out of their way to broadcast it to people so obnoxiously means that it probably isnt true.

These people need women to approve of them for their self esteem. They want to be an alpha male, but the primary way you become an "alpha male" is by having a lot of women choose to fuck you. These people put tie their self worth, their masculinity, into having sex, but what this ultimately means is that a woman is in control of your masculinity. Thats why it has to be framed as the red pilled alpha male NLP mindhacking his way into her pants with this one weird tip. Its also why a real loving relationship with a woman wont fix anything. Because a woman who loves you isnt with you because the sheer animal magnetism of your penis hijacked her vagina and overrode her inferior female brain into fucking you. A woman genuinely being in love with you isnt an ego boost.

The underlying problem here isnt that men feel like they need sex for validation, its that most people today are toxic losers who have a constant need of some kind of third party validation. And theres no fixing that, because its not an accident. These people have been carefully engineered to be this. They are perfect.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 23, 2014, 07:26:34 PM
Quote from: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on June 23, 2014, 07:23:31 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on June 23, 2014, 05:02:09 PM
That's another part of things, the whole success/failure dynamic and language. When you think about a lot of the terms related to sex there's a lot of win/lose kind of language.

I'm pretty sure humans shouldn't feel proud that they've convinced someone to fuck them. For one, consider that this is basically saying that you don't give a fuck about the other person. They're just meat. Secondly, shouldn't this be a mutually enjoyable thing? Many terms again put emphasis on male enjoyment which at best seems unfair.

Again, rambling and no better point beyond the language we use a lot of the time in these situations is fucked and probably needs a serious societal shift which I have fuck all idea how to bring about.

I realize that its a faux pas to point this out, but have you considered that maybe people arent brainwashed into wanting sex? PUA culture isnt about wanting sex anymore than its about wanting women. Its about going after status. These are people who are trying desperately to achieve some kind of self worth, to feel like they arent losers. Taking away the symbolic association of sex and women with status, aside from being completely impossible, doesnt fix the underlying problem. All youve done is taken away one compensatory thing for another. Just because you make people accept that not having sex doesnt make you a loser, it wont make these people feel less like losers. These people are losers for entirely different reasons, reasons that sex will never fix. Thats why they need a little mental scorecard in their head of all the chicks theyve fucked, its something to point to "You see! Im not a worthless waste of carbon!"

As for this leading to "manipulative sociopathic men". If youre talking about larger cultural issues, I guess...? Empathy isnt one of Americas strong suites. Someone who is a manipulative sociopath in pursuit of one area is probably going to be a manipulative sociopath in other areas. Sociopathy has a way of leaking. If youre talking about PUA I dont buy it for a second. The reason is because these dweebs very gladly define themselves as "manipulative sociopaths", its an image. Its what they WANT to be. And the fact that they have to go out of their way to broadcast it to people so obnoxiously means that it probably isnt true.

These people need women to approve of them for their self esteem. They want to be an alpha male, but the primary way you become an "alpha male" is by having a lot of women choose to fuck you. These people put tie their self worth, their masculinity, into having sex, but what this ultimately means is that a woman is in control of your masculinity. Thats why it has to be framed as the red pilled alpha male NLP mindhacking his way into her pants with this one weird tip. Its also why a real loving relationship with a woman wont fix anything. Because a woman who loves you isnt with you because the sheer animal magnetism of your penis hijacked her vagina and overrode her inferior female brain into fucking you. A woman genuinely being in love with you isnt an ego boost.

The underlying problem here isnt that men feel like they need sex for validation, its that most people today are toxic losers who have a constant need of some kind of third party validation. And theres no fixing that, because its not an accident. These people have been carefully engineered to be this. They are perfect.

Total.

Fucking.

Victory.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Junkenstein on June 23, 2014, 07:47:14 PM
Fucking flawless!
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on June 23, 2014, 07:48:34 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on June 23, 2014, 07:47:14 PM
Fucking flawless!

?
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Junkenstein on June 23, 2014, 07:52:41 PM
Quote from: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on June 23, 2014, 07:48:34 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on June 23, 2014, 07:47:14 PM
Fucking flawless!

?

You raised valid points which I had not considered and communicated thoughts in an easily understandable manner.

I am impressed, amused and encourage you to write more things.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on June 23, 2014, 07:55:15 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on June 23, 2014, 07:52:41 PM
Quote from: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on June 23, 2014, 07:48:34 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on June 23, 2014, 07:47:14 PM
Fucking flawless!

?

You raised valid points which I had not considered and communicated thoughts in an easily understandable manner.

I am impressed, amused and encourage you to write more things.

Thanks. Sorry, Im a little drunk and wasnt sure I was interpreting what you said right.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Junkenstein on June 23, 2014, 08:01:33 PM
Whatever it is you're doing, you appear to be doing it right.

Carry on.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Cainad (dec.) on June 23, 2014, 08:27:43 PM
BAM!

"Status > Sex" is what I was dancing around without saying directly. Good work.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Reginald Ret on June 23, 2014, 09:07:15 PM
Excellent piece of writing Ron Paul.

One question: Who do you think engineered them to be that way?
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on June 23, 2014, 09:56:00 PM
Quote from: Regret on June 23, 2014, 09:07:15 PM
Excellent piece of writing Ron Paul.

One question: Who do you think engineered them to be that way?

Who benefits from it? Power. The 1%. The System. The Reptiles. The Nazi Devil-Worshiper Drug Running Hydra whos tentacles reach every board room, country club and high end whorehouse on this side of the planet. Who does the actual heavy lifting? Schools and advertising mostly.

Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 23, 2014, 10:25:23 PM
Quote from: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on June 23, 2014, 07:23:31 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on June 23, 2014, 05:02:09 PM
That's another part of things, the whole success/failure dynamic and language. When you think about a lot of the terms related to sex there's a lot of win/lose kind of language.

I'm pretty sure humans shouldn't feel proud that they've convinced someone to fuck them. For one, consider that this is basically saying that you don't give a fuck about the other person. They're just meat. Secondly, shouldn't this be a mutually enjoyable thing? Many terms again put emphasis on male enjoyment which at best seems unfair.

Again, rambling and no better point beyond the language we use a lot of the time in these situations is fucked and probably needs a serious societal shift which I have fuck all idea how to bring about.

I realize that its a faux pas to point this out, but have you considered that maybe people arent brainwashed into wanting sex? PUA culture isnt about wanting sex anymore than its about wanting women. Its about going after status. These are people who are trying desperately to achieve some kind of self worth, to feel like they arent losers. Taking away the symbolic association of sex and women with status, aside from being completely impossible, doesnt fix the underlying problem. All youve done is taken away one compensatory thing for another. Just because you make people accept that not having sex doesnt make you a loser, it wont make these people feel less like losers. These people are losers for entirely different reasons, reasons that sex will never fix. Thats why they need a little mental scorecard in their head of all the chicks theyve fucked, its something to point to "You see! Im not a worthless waste of carbon!"

As for this leading to "manipulative sociopathic men". If youre talking about larger cultural issues, I guess...? Empathy isnt one of Americas strong suites. Someone who is a manipulative sociopath in pursuit of one area is probably going to be a manipulative sociopath in other areas. Sociopathy has a way of leaking. If youre talking about PUA I dont buy it for a second. The reason is because these dweebs very gladly define themselves as "manipulative sociopaths", its an image. Its what they WANT to be. And the fact that they have to go out of their way to broadcast it to people so obnoxiously means that it probably isnt true.

These people need women to approve of them for their self esteem. They want to be an alpha male, but the primary way you become an "alpha male" is by having a lot of women choose to fuck you. These people put tie their self worth, their masculinity, into having sex, but what this ultimately means is that a woman is in control of your masculinity. Thats why it has to be framed as the red pilled alpha male NLP mindhacking his way into her pants with this one weird tip. Its also why a real loving relationship with a woman wont fix anything. Because a woman who loves you isnt with you because the sheer animal magnetism of your penis hijacked her vagina and overrode her inferior female brain into fucking you. A woman genuinely being in love with you isnt an ego boost.

The underlying problem here isnt that men feel like they need sex for validation, its that most people today are toxic losers who have a constant need of some kind of third party validation. And theres no fixing that, because its not an accident. These people have been carefully engineered to be this. They are perfect.

Hot damn. Well argued, Ron Paul.


How, if at all, do you feel this fits into the mythology of American Rugged Individualism?
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Pæs on June 23, 2014, 10:30:09 PM
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on June 23, 2014, 10:25:23 PM
Hot damn. Well argued, Ron Paul.
Making someone say THIS is the entire point of him coming here being all REASONABLE about things.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on June 23, 2014, 10:32:55 PM
Quote from: Pæs on June 23, 2014, 10:30:09 PM
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on June 23, 2014, 10:25:23 PM
Hot damn. Well argued, Ron Paul.
Making someone say THIS is the entire point of him coming here being all REASONABLE about things.

Your warnings fall on deaf ears. PD has already fallen under my spell. The full moon approaches. And there is nothing you can do to stop it.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 23, 2014, 11:52:00 PM
Quote from: Pæs on June 23, 2014, 10:30:09 PM
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on June 23, 2014, 10:25:23 PM
Hot damn. Well argued, Ron Paul.
Making someone say THIS is the entire point of him coming here being all REASONABLE about things.

:lulz:
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Reginald Ret on June 26, 2014, 01:28:15 PM
Quote from: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on June 23, 2014, 09:56:00 PM
Quote from: Regret on June 23, 2014, 09:07:15 PM
Excellent piece of writing Ron Paul.

One question: Who do you think engineered them to be that way?

Who benefits from it? Power. The 1%. The System. The Reptiles. The Nazi Devil-Worshiper Drug Running Hydra whos tentacles reach every board room, country club and high end whorehouse on this side of the planet. Who does the actual heavy lifting? Schools and advertising mostly.
You are assuming a level of competence and organization here that I don't see any evidence for. Yes it sucks, Yes it developed this way, but who is driving Bus? no-one is driving Bus. Bus-driver is in back arguing with rich white adolescents about their loud music while the rest of the bus is on fire while falling off a cliff.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on June 27, 2014, 01:25:03 PM
Quote from: Regret on June 26, 2014, 01:28:15 PM
Quote from: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on June 23, 2014, 09:56:00 PM
Quote from: Regret on June 23, 2014, 09:07:15 PM
Excellent piece of writing Ron Paul.

One question: Who do you think engineered them to be that way?

Who benefits from it? Power. The 1%. The System. The Reptiles. The Nazi Devil-Worshiper Drug Running Hydra whos tentacles reach every board room, country club and high end whorehouse on this side of the planet. Who does the actual heavy lifting? Schools and advertising mostly.
You are assuming a level of competence and organization here that I don't see any evidence for. Yes it sucks, Yes it developed this way, but who is driving Bus? no-one is driving Bus. Bus-driver is in back arguing with rich white adolescents about their loud music while the rest of the bus is on fire while falling off a cliff.

Call it Reptile v's biped. Call it Amygdala v's Neocortex. We can operate on two levels, call it Autopilot v's Manual. Either the biped is overriding the reptilian control directives or it's vice-versa. We're pretty complex pieces of software. I doubt if anyone is running fully manual. Probably only the severely brain damaged are running fully auto but maybe some are running 70-80% one way or the other.

The best example I have of this effect is one of my favourite manual override opportunities - fear. My hobby is going to scary places and I'll often take others along for the ride. You can plainly see when the reptile takes over the controls. Visible stress response, dilated pupils, wide manic stare, uncontrollable shaking, talking shit. Too much stress and the reptile just locks up. Look at a baby antelope in the jaws of a lioness, just before the teeth clamp down. It's already frozen, pre-empting death. No one is driving antelope for those last precious milliseconds of it's life.

You can't talk to the reptile. It doesn't understand language. You need to get through to the biped, who's been bound and gagged and stuffed in the trunk. Appeal to reason - if you don't "get a grip" you're going to die!

Like I said this applies to any activity. Dating, eating, fighting, fucking... Socialising. Who am I talking to, the reptile or the biped? What's the mix? Path of least resistance is to leave it up to the clockwork reptile. Switch off the calorie-hungry biped supercomputer. Too much like hard work. At a guess, most of the people are predominantly reptile, most of the time.

Maybe it doesn't take a complicated conspiracy. Maybe all it takes is basic human laziness?
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on June 28, 2014, 03:30:29 AM
Quote from: Regret on June 26, 2014, 01:28:15 PM
Quote from: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on June 23, 2014, 09:56:00 PM
Quote from: Regret on June 23, 2014, 09:07:15 PM
Excellent piece of writing Ron Paul.

One question: Who do you think engineered them to be that way?

Who benefits from it? Power. The 1%. The System. The Reptiles. The Nazi Devil-Worshiper Drug Running Hydra whos tentacles reach every board room, country club and high end whorehouse on this side of the planet. Who does the actual heavy lifting? Schools and advertising mostly.
You are assuming a level of competence and organization here that I don't see any evidence for. Yes it sucks, Yes it developed this way, but who is driving Bus? no-one is driving Bus. Bus-driver is in back arguing with rich white adolescents about their loud music while the rest of the bus is on fire while falling off a cliff.

Evidence? Go to the local school house. Mass schooling was an experiment in social engineering, successful one. Most of the public schooling infrastructure we have today was founded with the explicit purpose, not of education, but of molding people to be a certain way.

QuoteWe want one class to have a liberal education. We want another class, a very much larger class of necessity, to forgo the privilege of a liberal education and fit themselves to perform specific difficult manual tasks

That was Woodrow Wilson. At the same time as this, most of the administrative positions in American schooling were filled by representatives of the Rockafellers and Carnegie. Both of which threw considerable political support for compulsory schooling.

Look at advertising. On every fucking streetcorner in my fuckhole of a town theres a god damn McDonalds billboard. CocaCola is one of the most known english words in the world. There are six corporations that control almost all the media you consume. How can you say you dont see competency and organization? What Im talking about isnt far fetched. Its not ruling the world, its shaping the psychology of the masses to a particular goal. You dont think there are people with the competency to do that? Remember when 80% of Americans thought that the war in Iraq was a good idea? Pro tip: it wasnt Dubyas rugged charm that won them over.

Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 29, 2014, 04:49:27 AM
Ron Paul has a valid point that is supported by historical facts.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 29, 2014, 05:01:43 AM
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on June 29, 2014, 04:49:27 AM
Ron Paul has a valid point that is supported by historical facts.

Except that as of last year, there are only 5 in the news corporation club.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 29, 2014, 05:13:41 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 29, 2014, 05:01:43 AM
Quote from: The Right Reverend Nigel on June 29, 2014, 04:49:27 AM
Ron Paul has a valid point that is supported by historical facts.

Except that as of last year, there are only 5 in the news corporation club.

:horrormirth:
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: axod on August 24, 2014, 10:01:14 AM
Quote from: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on June 28, 2014, 03:30:29 AM
That was Woodrow Wilson. At the same time as this, most of the administrative positions in American schooling were filled by representatives of the Rockafellers and Carnegie. Both of which threw considerable political support for compulsory schooling.
You mean House.
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on August 25, 2014, 05:02:53 PM
Quote from: axod on August 24, 2014, 10:01:14 AM
Quote from: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on June 28, 2014, 03:30:29 AM
That was Woodrow Wilson. At the same time as this, most of the administrative positions in American schooling were filled by representatives of the Rockafellers and Carnegie. Both of which threw considerable political support for compulsory schooling.
You mean House.

Que?
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: LMNO on August 25, 2014, 05:21:55 PM
(http://bestuff.com/images/images_of_stuff/210x600/its-not-lupus-209553.jpg?1249762857)
Title: Re: PUA reaction/info/derailment thread
Post by: axod on August 29, 2014, 06:44:18 AM
Colonel House, Woody's puppeteer.  Eddy, m. IIRC.