Messages

All I'm saying is the bleakness you perceive doesn't permeate every facet of our society.

Is anyone making an argument for that?

With respect to our specific discussion, I believe the same.  There are a lot of good people out there doing their best to protect their communities, and I might add, getting fairly shitty pay (and giving up tons of family time) for what they are tasked to do.

Is anyone disagreeing with that?

It would seem to me the debate wouldn't have gone this far if there weren't people disagreeing with that.

It would seem to me the debate wouldn't have gone this far if you weren't denying that there are institutionalized culturally supported police abuses. Aside from your anecdotes, and your seeming refusal to address half the people posting ITT, what evidence to the contrary do you offer?

You believe it because you want to believe it.  But think about it, if so many police departments all over the country are so awful, why do their citizens put up with it?  After all, it is their tax dollars funding their salaries.  And all of those people you talk about DO have power, if they wish to exercise it.  Or, maybe, it is because on balance their police departments do what they are supposed to do.  For sure, as with any institution that employs humans (read: every institution everywhere) the humans fuck up.  And in some cases that is at the top which yes will insulate lower level fuck-ups.  And that shit should be stamped out.


But I just don't see any practical evidence, not theories based on case-studies, but actual city-to-city, community-to-community evidence that the majority of law enforcement agencies are broken.  It just isn't there.  It's a belief based on an unbending dour outlook on the world.

We're giving you the data. The data on Boston, the data on Fresno, the data on Phox's neck of the woods, Roger's old precinct....

Which still makes up only a small slice of America.

As does L/A.  You don't see the logical fallacy?

No, see, here is where I think you guys are getting lost.  My position, is without evidence to the contrary, I give LEAs the benefit of the doubt that they do what they swore oaths to do.  The position I'm feeling from many of you, is that without evidence to the contrary, the assumption is that LEAs are racist/crooked/corrupt/whatever.  My anecdotes are to serve the purpose of illustrating that good LEAs do exist.  I feel the cynicism here runs far too deep and is unfairly indicting institutions before they are proven guilty.

Umm. You're asking us to go out and personally shadow every single officer of the law because about 45% of them are not complete fucking monsters. Nobody said that every police officer ever is a poorly disguised terrorist. You, however, did say that your experience is that police are not generally corrupt, and that you believe that we are getting caught up in stories about statistically miniscule happenings. You say this, despite the anecdotal and statistical data provided. Okay then. 

You believe it because you want to believe it.  But think about it, if so many police departments all over the country are so awful, why do their citizens put up with it?  After all, it is their tax dollars funding their salaries.  And all of those people you talk about DO have power, if they wish to exercise it.  Or, maybe, it is because on balance their police departments do what they are supposed to do.  For sure, as with any institution that employs humans (read: every institution everywhere) the humans fuck up.  And in some cases that is at the top which yes will insulate lower level fuck-ups.  And that shit should be stamped out.


But I just don't see any practical evidence, not theories based on case-studies, but actual city-to-city, community-to-community evidence that the majority of law enforcement agencies are broken.  It just isn't there.  It's a belief based on an unbending dour outlook on the world.

We're giving you the data. The data on Boston, the data on Fresno, the data on Phox's neck of the woods, Roger's old precinct....

Which still makes up only a small slice of America.

I can tell you about rural areas in 3 other states, and cities in 4.  Let's not forget the additional data from ECH's travels, Portland, and Texas. Which makes a hell of a lot better sample than Maine. 

Replying to Garbo


You believe it because you want to believe it.  But think about it, if so many police departments all over the country are so awful, why do their citizens put up with it?  After all, it is their tax dollars funding their salaries.  And all of those people you talk about DO have power, if they wish to exercise it.  Or, maybe, it is because on balance their police departments do what they are supposed to do.  For sure, as with any institution that employs humans (read: every institution everywhere) the humans fuck up.  And in some cases that is at the top which yes will insulate lower level fuck-ups.  And that shit should be stamped out.


But I just don't see any practical evidence, not theories based on case-studies, but actual city-to-city, community-to-community evidence that the majority of law enforcement agencies are broken.  It just isn't there.  It's a belief based on an unbending dour outlook on the world.

Right, because codes of silence, "protecting your own", and good old intimidation don't work out so well? And of course, the "I pay your salary" argument makes cop LESS inclined to mace you in the face for not having your license hanging out the window by the time they get there, right? 

I dunno what to say guys, I just think this place has just sunk so far into the tales of horrormirth that it is all you guys can see, even when it isn't there.  And the problem with that, is you end up unwittingly forsaking allies, which I think is very unfortunate.

Nothing mirthful about administering first aid to a guy who stumbled out of a now-burning building after that nice police officer who tipped his cap to you as he drove off, and you know damn well, there's not a thing that anyone can do to save that eye. Just sayin'.

The question I would throw out (to anyone) is, how certain are you that the notoriety matches up 100% with reality?  Not whether or not there are racial incidences, but how kany officers in those departments are put there doing the right thing?  Doing what they swore an oath to do?  If your answer is anything along the lines of " I don't know", I would challenge you to rethink your conclusions, and perhaps, find out a little more about the ins and outs of your local department.  Not just whatever awful story makes the headlines, but what are the rest of them doing? 


The newspapers and the 6 O'Clock news aren't going to report on the good things they are doing.  They aren't going to report on the routine actions that are part of their jobs.  Are you (I'm using the general "you") really basing your conclusions on ALL of the information, or just what you see in paper and on the internet.  If you think that is the WHOLE story, well, I don't know what to tell you.

I could tell you that I know, personally, that every single police officer in my local department, and in two towns in every direction, is a certified sociopath. There's a particularly giant prick of a cop who, a few months ago, busted into a man's house, and beat the holy shit out of him in front of his young grandson. Why? Turns out, that the dude's girlfriend's dad didn't like him, and was friends with a few of the honest, hard-working boys in blue. So he had them go and rough up a man who did not a goddamn thing. The police claimed that when they got there, he was beating the ever-loving shit out of the kid. kid goes to hospital, DCFS investigates. Not a damn mark on the kid. What happens to the officers in question? Not a goddamn thing.

In the next town over, there's a particularly nasty cop who likes to beat the unholy hell out of tweakers and extort them for money or drugs. This is well known by pretty much everyone. Not a damn thing is done about it. Because he's doing it to "the right people."

Little town up the way? If you're black and on the wrong side of town, if you don't get beaten, tased, or even shot you better thank your lucky stars that weren't any patrol cars around that day.

The sad part is. I know, personally, most of the people responsible for all of that shit. Grew up and went to school with more than a few. Know their families, kids, brothers and sisters... and guess what? Half of them are the nicest people you ever did meet. Unless they decide that they don't like you. Or who you hang out with. Or what color your sneakers are.

But we can sit here and trade anecdotes all day, RWHN. I could tell you about how my parents were treated in NC. Or what happened to me in PA. Or any of a thousand other little instances of police abuse that I have borne witness to in my short little life. I can tell you what goes on in the backrooms of some of the local stations. I've had the pleasure of being in a few myself. And not on the receiving end, either. Just as an observer.

But where does that really get us? I, personally, have first-hand experience with this. In my experience, the smaller the town, and the more localized the agency, the worse it is. Your average Chicago beat cop is less likely to to beat you to a pulp for looking at him the wrong way than a Christopher boy. The IL State police won't breakdown your door at 10 am on a Saturday and shoot you while you sit on your couch. The FBI, DEA, and whatever else won't drag you to your basement meth lab slam your head through all of your glass ware, and set the place on fire leaving you in it, bloody and semi-conscious. Or would they? Can't say I have that much experience with the Feds, to be honest.

What Phox said. Ugh. I hate the "you're ungrateful, hateful, and making us sad!" shit when someone has done or said something unacceptable. Maybe anger would not be necessary on the part of the angry person if the asshole were not an asshole, yes?

When I was talking to Marie on the phone she was like, "Maybe you don't know some things because you're not around a lot" "Maybe I'm not around a lot for a reason."

And here's the fucked up thing. Anyone who knows me knows I don't like fighting. Anyone who knows me knows I'm extremely patient most of the time (to the point where I'm too patient and end up exploding). I've had some blow outs where I was a huge fucking douche, but that was either because I held it in or I was hammered and someone decided to talk about something best talked about sober. And I've admitted those each time.

And I'm sorry, but you can't walk around wearing a progressive hat and then when you're at Thanksgiving dinner surrounded by white, presumably heterosexual, family members take it off and be like, "but I usually wear this hat!" Well yeah, and maybe you should put it back on because I don't like your hairdo.

in addition, "Oh it was just a joke, ha-ha!" is NOT an acceptable excuse. If it was a joke "Oh shit, I'm sorry. I was just joking around. Didn't mean to hurt any feelings. I won't do it again," is the right answer here. "Aww, c'mon, lighten up", "You're not gay/black/whatever, so why does it bother you?", or "You're just being an asshole, it was funny," are dick moves to say the least. To say more accurately, they are behavior that should not be tolerated at any cost. It costs nothing to be polite, but once someone has proven they do not deserve that courtesy, write them the fuck off.

You WERE polite. far more polite than we, your esteemed colleagues, would have been. People need to be called out on that sort of shit. If it's acceptable behind closed doors, then it's a short hop to being acceptable when one of "them" isn't around, even in public. Remember that shit with that Dog the Bounty Hunter guy?

You know, having transcribed that whole thing, I feel kinda vindicated...

Oh good fucking GOD.

What a fucking moron. Seriously dude, you were fine. You admitted that your initial reaction was out of line and apologized for it. You were far more civil than I would have been. I would discuss it with the people who she claims are being hurt by your actions, and see if you can't get them to say that stand by you.

Phox,
SLM. SA.

Please, please, please tell that that's just contempt and misanthropy talking... she doesn't honestly believe that it's not a problem... does she?

Delightfully horrible, TGG. 

There certainly differences between law enforcement in cities vs rural areas, but it's also not like Maine has a monopoly on rural, tight-knit communities.  There's a lot of rural America out there.  But, I bristle, in general, to the generalization that is often made in popular culture of law enforcement.

Rural cops are ten times worse than urban cops.  169% of the time.

Talking from direct experience, here.

Ding ding ding. I have better luck with random beat cops in Chicago than I do with the cops who live down the street from me and I've known a majority of my life. I have known precisely one (1) police officer in my entire area that was not a complete power-tripping asshole. In fact, there is a certain town in about 10 miles south of me that is constantly monitored by State Police, because the local cops are notorious assholes.

Oh. Oh.

It's fantastic. I don't even know where to begin. I guess I should start by laughing, though. 

PS. thanks for the open dialogue about this sensitive subject in advance of it becoming an issue. 

It was only a matter of time wasn't it?

I mean, it's not like pedophilia is a notoriously big deal among a majority religious population in a historically and politically significant city in one of the most significant nation-states in the past couple of centuries, right?

Again, not trying to be a jerk, but ah... shit's getting dredged up right now, and I was never buggered by a collared man.

Twid,
Getting angry

Uh, I think that she was talking about Dingo's handling of this whole thing, not your comment, Twid.

I'm happy to address a few points here and there, to clarify but I'm for the must part not going to take a great deal of time to talk in this particular thread, as it's clearly not of use to me as an organising thread.

1. In terms of what I write, I do intend to make explicit that I and Discordia at large are opposed to and appalled by paedophilia/hebephilia (sp?). There've been some completely legitimate concerns regarding the possible implication of others being OK with that, to the point that I agree it needs to be made explicit. I think I want to expand on this soon, and will cross post it.

2. I agree in terms of my actions in terms of the FB group. I had thought I had said as much privately to Nigel but I looked over my message and it wasn't really an apology. So, to the four people I took out of the group, I apologise; I'm sorry for the way in which it was done. I am using this page as a trip organiser and will be limiting membership to people who want involvement but the way I went about achieving that was a dick move.

3. I have not and do not intend to unfriend anyone on Facebook. I suspect some of the people accusing me of doing so were never connected to me on Facebook to begin with. It's petty, passive aggressive behaviour, and I don't indulge in it.

4. If I take a long time to respond to anyone, it will be because I'm crazy busy moving, marking and getting ready for next year. Not because I'm snubbing. (Twid, I'll hit you back in a few hours)

Oh fuck right the hell off.

I have no vested interest in either your project or in Uncle BadTouch. But you know, when you come right out and SAY that anyone who isn't doesn't want to participate is Uncle BadTouch is involved should go fuck themselves, that sends a clear signal, don't it? And certainly, YOUR word is going to hold a lot of water after your hypocritical little nonsense, about your real name, yeah?

But I digress. Let me get to the point. You, sir, are the worst kind of snake-oil salesman. You don't actually care about representing "Discordia", you care about something else. Controversy, maybe? Getting the "big" names? Internet famous? Whatever. Doesn't matter. If you wanted to give an accurate portrayal of "modern Discordia", then Uncle BadTouch wouldn't be in it, and the rest of those who protested would. You are holding onto one (1) person's contributions, at the risk of losing... 5, 10, 50, 100? At what point is the loss enough?

Thanks Phox, that was kind of you!

No problem. While I don't claim to be any sort of expert, I figured you'd appreciate a little "Hey this one might give you a seizure, proceed with due caution" type dealy. Most of them are probably safe (I think that you've mentioned that the frequency needs to be in a certain range or something like that before?), but I'd rather not have anybody getting caught off guard by it, you know?

I've never had a seizure triggered by flashy things, but certain ones do fuck me up... something to do with triggering the parts of my brain that control aggression. But other people may not be so fortunate, and either way it was thoughtful of you, since I was playing website chicken with it. 

ah. I think there are other people prone to seizures who visit PD too, aren't there? I believe it was mentioned briefly somewhere. And at least you know which ones are likely to fuck you up now.