I'd like to revoke what I said about Jazz in the past.
I can't find the exact quote, but it was something to the effect of "Jazz is noise". This was revised from my previous, rather naive statement about Jazz from a dilletantte's perspective (and given that I don't play the genre, that's likely all I'll ever be).
Perhaps not revoke, but a further revision. Like taxonomy, sometimes new information comes to light and the evolutionary relationships that seemed so clear yesterday are suddenly a polyphyly or polytomy, or worse, a premise based on some study in Science proclaiming arsenic-eating bacteria. The model needs updating.
And it stems from something that I think many people here agree with, in at least the basic premise, and that is that music worth listening to doesn't have to be easy listening. And I don't mean in the sense of LOUD or having controversial lyrics, though these are also acceptable. I'm talking about difficult listening in the form of sounds and rhythms that are outside my comfort zone. Because, like the definition of "weed", noise is sound where it's not wanted.
If I had to pick any genre that tends to go outside that comfortable range, it's Jazz. Complicated, dissonant, often including nothing resembling a melody, definitely not easy listening. Even if your preffered music is death metal at ear drum bursting levels, Jazz is still difficult. Why should being uncomfortable mean it's not worth anything? Once again, uncomfortable being "that which is incongruent to my MO".
The obvious answer is that many people find Jazz worth quite a lot, and not just dilettante hipsters either. I know I'm really going against the grain here (some might even call it groupthink) to say that I'm willing to give more Jazz some listening. Hell, I'm listening to Herbie Hancock's Maiden Voyage right now, and you know what? It hurts. It /feels/ in great part like noise but for goddsake I'm never going to grow musically if I don't get over some shallow notion of what constitutes music. There's plenty of discussion in the Apple Zone thread right now on musical stagnation, and I think it applies equally to this.
In closing: fuck what you think you know about noise. It's worth listening to at least once, if my ears aren't destroyed in the process. This isn't about taste, this about a willingness to explore, lest I become some sort of horrible narrow-minded critic that listens to the same 5 tracks over, and over, and over...
I don't think any genre of music is worthless. There is also no genre of music whose offerings I wholly dislike. I like some more than others, and some I like very little. The only music that I really genuinely prefer not to listen to if I can avoid it is music that is specifically designed to soothe.
Quote from: Not Your Nigel on October 13, 2013, 12:04:38 AM
I don't think any genre of music is worthless. There is also no genre of music whose offerings I wholly dislike. I like some more than others, and some I like very little. The only music that I really genuinely prefer not to listen to if I can avoid it is music that is specifically designed to soothe.
Any particular reason?
Quote from: Kai on October 13, 2013, 12:18:48 AM
Quote from: Not Your Nigel on October 13, 2013, 12:04:38 AM
I don't think any genre of music is worthless. There is also no genre of music whose offerings I wholly dislike. I like some more than others, and some I like very little. The only music that I really genuinely prefer not to listen to if I can avoid it is music that is specifically designed to soothe.
Any particular reason?
I feel like it's trying to shut me down, or to generate white noise in my brain.
Quote from: Not Your Nigel on October 13, 2013, 01:59:06 AM
Quote from: Kai on October 13, 2013, 12:18:48 AM
Quote from: Not Your Nigel on October 13, 2013, 12:04:38 AM
I don't think any genre of music is worthless. There is also no genre of music whose offerings I wholly dislike. I like some more than others, and some I like very little. The only music that I really genuinely prefer not to listen to if I can avoid it is music that is specifically designed to soothe.
Any particular reason?
I feel like it's trying to shut me down, or to generate white noise in my brain.
I can see that.
I have two problems with Jazz.
1. It hasn't had much to say in years, and
2. What it's repeating makes me go berserk.
I'm a fan of jazz. Hell, I studied at a jazz school.
And much like any kind of music, Sturgeon's Law applies.
Jazz can be incredibly melodic, it can have an easily understood structure, and it can be fucking catchy.
It can also be insanely complicated, and use concepts that surpass the majority of 20th century composers, with the exception of Ives or Cage.
Which makes "Jazz" hard to talk about, in the same way "rock" is hard to talk about, when you include Buddy Holly and Cannibal Corpse in the same grouping.
I may start a thread that takes jazz from understood through WTF, if people are interested. I may not. But I am encouraged to hear that some may give it a second listen.
Quote from: Kai on October 13, 2013, 02:05:09 AM
Quote from: Not Your Nigel on October 13, 2013, 01:59:06 AM
Quote from: Kai on October 13, 2013, 12:18:48 AM
Quote from: Not Your Nigel on October 13, 2013, 12:04:38 AM
I don't think any genre of music is worthless. There is also no genre of music whose offerings I wholly dislike. I like some more than others, and some I like very little. The only music that I really genuinely prefer not to listen to if I can avoid it is music that is specifically designed to soothe.
Any particular reason?
I feel like it's trying to shut me down, or to generate white noise in my brain.
I can see that.
I am pretty sure that it is designed to do exactly that, which is why it's soothing, but I definitely have a control freak aspect that can't deal with that.
I'm not fond of jazz, probably for a similar reason. Jazz engages analytical processing, and I want my analytical processing available to process the shit out of my environment so I can OCD it.
I do like some jazz, though.
Also I can't stand the word "jazz", it occupies the same position of linguistic aesthetics as "slacks", "frappuccino", and "mucous".
Quote from: Not Your Nigel on October 13, 2013, 05:53:41 AM
Also I can't stand the word "jazz", it occupies the same position of linguistic aesthetics as "slacks", "frappuccino", and "mucous".
All that jazz is just a political economy of noise
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on October 13, 2013, 05:17:48 AM
I'm a fan of jazz. Hell, I studied at a jazz school.
And much like any kind of music, Sturgeon's Law applies.
Jazz can be incredibly melodic, it can have an easily understood structure, and it can be fucking catchy.
It can also be insanely complicated, and use concepts that surpass the majority of 20th century composers, with the exception of Ives or Cage.
Which makes "Jazz" hard to talk about, in the same way "rock" is hard to talk about, when you include Buddy Holly and Cannibal Corpse in the same grouping.
I may start a thread that takes jazz from understood through WTF, if people are interested. I may not. But I am encouraged to hear that some may give it a second listen.
I'm interested.
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 13, 2013, 04:20:19 AM
I have two problems with Jazz.
1. It hasn't had much to say in years, and
2. What it's repeating makes me go berserk.
Quote from: LMNOAnd much like any kind of music, Sturgeon's Law applies.
I love jazz, as a performer and listener. I was in a jazz band for awhile as a trumpet player. There is a certain power and energy that a good jazz tune and groove taps into. Especially when you're sort of "in the pocket".
Improvisational jazz especially. You have a basic rhythmic background, sometimes, and everyone else joins in on a joytastic, no-holds-barred freak out. Kind of like Sonic Youth except with swirling brass as opposed to swirling feedback.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on October 13, 2013, 05:17:48 AM
I'm a fan of jazz. Hell, I studied at a jazz school.
And much like any kind of music, Sturgeon's Law applies.
Jazz can be incredibly melodic, it can have an easily understood structure, and it can be fucking catchy.
It can also be insanely complicated, and use concepts that surpass the majority of 20th century composers, with the exception of Ives or Cage.
Which makes "Jazz" hard to talk about, in the same way "rock" is hard to talk about, when you include Buddy Holly and Cannibal Corpse in the same grouping.
I may start a thread that takes jazz from understood through WTF, if people are interested. I may not. But I am encouraged to hear that some may give it a second listen.
It IS an umbrella term.
I like some New Orleans jazz, and some of the stuff you hear in very old movies. These, as Roger noted, are OLD.
I hate that soft shit. It makes me want to TAKE THEIR FUCKING DRUMS AND SHIT AWAY, BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT
HITTING THEM anyway, they're just making
annoying little noises. THIS IS THE SOUNDTRACK OF HELL.
Some jazz is genius, and I admit that a lot of that goes over my head. You have to be a musician to catch it all. Miles Davis comes to mind. I don't listen to Miles, but I respect him.
Oh, yeah, that's old, too.
Jazz should fuck itself in the earhole with itself.
Quote from: Jet City Hustle on October 13, 2013, 07:35:49 PM
Jazz should fuck itself in the earhole with itself.
So should
hip-hop.
:lulz:
Actually, I was kind of hoping you'd say exactly that. It turns out, the two are intertwined more frequently than you might think. See, I think if Jazz as being sort of like pop's think-tank (pop includes the vast majority of rock and hip-hop). On its own in its purest form, it's barely distinguishable from meaningless noise. But the ideas and innovations that have been birthed there have made all of music richer. There's a whole lot of musically great hip-hop out there (just like any other genre). Much of it is full of jazz-ish live instrumentation. Interestingly, in spite of how much I generally dislike jazz itself, this tends to be some of my favorite hip-hop to listen to. The melody and the warmth of the actual instruments provides something that much hip-hop lacks, and the jazz finally finds what it needed all along to turn it from a puppet into a real boy - a simple and catchy beat.
check it out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n65x_cSHSHE
Quote from: Jet City Hustle on October 13, 2013, 08:53:44 PM
:lulz:
Actually, I was kind of hoping you'd say exactly that. It turns out, the two are intertwined more frequently than you might think. See, I think if Jazz as being sort of like pop's think-tank (pop includes the vast majority of rock and hip-hop). On its own in its purest form, it's barely distinguishable from meaningless noise. But the ideas and innovations that have been birthed there have made all of music richer. There's a whole lot of musically great hip-hop out there (just like any other genre). Much of it is full of jazz-ish live instrumentation. Interestingly, in spite of how much I generally dislike jazz itself, this tends to be some of my favorite hip-hop to listen to. The melody and the warmth of the actual instruments provides something that much hip-hop lacks, and the jazz finally finds what it needed all along to turn it from a puppet into a real boy - a simple and catchy beat.
check it out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n65x_cSHSHE
While I agree that's catchy, sounds more like ska than jazz to me.
And once again, I say: fuck what you think you know about noise.
On the other hand, I'm glad you weren't JUST taking the piss. :lol:
Quote from: Kai on October 13, 2013, 12:09:29 PM
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 13, 2013, 04:20:19 AM
I have two problems with Jazz.
1. It hasn't had much to say in years, and
2. What it's repeating makes me go berserk.
Quote from: LMNOAnd much like any kind of music, Sturgeon's Law applies.
It's not the performers. It's the genre itself. It's like Muzak, and it just plain drives me nuts.
There were some exceptions, back in the day (and by that I mean "before my father was born"). But that's not how I bet.
I was so excited that Sun-Ra was going to do a jam session in the studio... Well, let's just say it put Coltrain's Sun Ship to shame...
Jazz != an excuse to play pentatonic scales at random.
Some jazz really knocks my socks off and some of it I don't care for at all. The jazz I don't like has a certain quality that I can only describe as "sterile"
Ironic, considering the origins of the word itself.
When I watched Treme, the series on New Orleans post Katrina, I really enjoyed the new orleans tradition stuff on the soundtrack.
and the track ECH linked doesn't feel ska-like at all, the vocals feel more Jazz/ old school R&B than ska.
I started a Jazz history thread in Apple Talk, if anyone cares to listen to some music on YouTube.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on October 14, 2013, 05:09:38 PM
I started a Jazz history thread in Apple Talk, if anyone cares to listen to some music on YouTube.
I'm there. And I actually like the 20's stuff, a lot 30's jazz isn't too bad either.
After that...well, I'll see if you can change my mind. :lol:
Quote from: Tiddleywomp Cockletit on October 15, 2013, 12:49:50 AM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on October 14, 2013, 05:09:38 PM
I started a Jazz history thread in Apple Talk, if anyone cares to listen to some music on YouTube.
I'm there. And I actually like the 20's stuff, a lot 30's jazz isn't too bad either.
After that...well, I'll see if you can change my mind. :lol:
For Miles, then, it was like you "have to play a long time to sound like yourself": that sounds like a reason to peruse post 30's jazz. Really can't go wrong with
Bitche's Brew :lulz:
30 years later 03/09/2022
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