Hi all. So, today in my mythology class, we covered Buddhism, and as such, we brought up the idea of non-spiritual belief systems. Naturally, my mind immediately jumped to Discordianism, so I want some input as to what I could show the Prof to give them an idea of what it, and other joke/parody religions (I'm debating on mentioning the Pastafarians, Jediists, etc., or just keeping it to Discordianism, since there's more history there) are all about. Obviously I'll link them the PD, and maybe the BIP, but are there any other texts, or maybe a real solid video or two, that would be useful for explaining our belief system to an older person who has studied world mythologies for I-don't-know-how-long? I want to get across to them how we are on a sliding scale of belief (we all have our "own" Discordia; some are devout and theistic, some are philosophical and atheistic, some are a bit of both, and most are rather silly), but I don't want to just go "hey, look at this thing us younger people are into that's kind of nonsensical and doesn't take itself seriously" to someone who really knows their stuff, y'know? They showed a bit of interest when I mentioned sending them some material, so I think they'll receive it well. Thoughts?
I prefer to think of it as a spiritual non-belief system.
The god of my religion has explicitly forbidden me from believing in her and to question anyone claiming to have teachings of her, or of anything else. I get all the benefits of a religious support group, the same as Christans, without the catholic guilt or sadly the hot soccer moms at the sunday bake sales.
it's the Godel's Incompleteness Theorem of belief systems
Quote from: Al Qədic on February 26, 2019, 10:52:01 PM
"hey, look at this thing us younger people are into
I hate everything and I only want to die.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on February 27, 2019, 03:13:24 AM
Quote from: Al Qədic on February 26, 2019, 10:52:01 PM
"hey, look at this thing us younger people are into
I hate everything and I only want to die.
I'm not sure if this is a comment on teenage angst and depression, or a comment on feeling old and unappreciated...or maybe it's a comment about pineapple on pizza, I've been wrong about interpreting people's words plenty of times before. :lulz:
Quote from: Al Qədic on February 27, 2019, 03:42:07 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on February 27, 2019, 03:13:24 AM
Quote from: Al Qədic on February 26, 2019, 10:52:01 PM
"hey, look at this thing us younger people are into
I hate everything and I only want to die.
I'm not sure if this is a comment on teenage angst and depression, or a comment on feeling old and unappreciated...or maybe it's a comment about pineapple on pizza, I've been wrong about interpreting people's words plenty of times before. :lulz:
I am horribly old and vile. So are most of the Discordians posting here. We hate the young, so we burned the planet up for you.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on February 27, 2019, 04:05:36 AM
We hate the young, so we burned the planet up for you.
*aggressively points all fingers at*
Quote from: Doktor Howl on February 27, 2019, 04:05:36 AM
Quote from: Al Qədic on February 27, 2019, 03:42:07 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on February 27, 2019, 03:13:24 AM
Quote from: Al Qədic on February 26, 2019, 10:52:01 PM
"hey, look at this thing us younger people are into
I hate everything and I only want to die.
I'm not sure if this is a comment on teenage angst and depression, or a comment on feeling old and unappreciated...or maybe it's a comment about pineapple on pizza, I've been wrong about interpreting people's words plenty of times before. :lulz:
I am horribly old and vile. So are most of the Discordians posting here. We hate the young, so we burned the planet up for you.
If you're unlucky, Discordia will lead you to Cramulan beliefs, and then you rapidly age into a rotten swamp hag and you aren't even 30 yet, just like me.
I don't know of any good videos that "sum it up".
Let me venture a shortform Discordian definition
a collection of attitudes about beliefs,
including a skepticism towards organized religion
and a recognition of humor as something truly transcendent
which helps protect against rigidity, zeal, and ego.
The Discordian hierarchy is flipped - the people who know the least about it "get it" the most. So you can learn a thing or two from your fellow popes.
I think you should pass out pope cards, let everybody know they are already a Discordian pope, and are now a certified authority on Discordianism, able to query the Goddess directly. Then ask others what Discordianism is. Take them seriously.
Quote from: Cramulus on February 27, 2019, 12:26:34 PM
I think you should pass out pope cards, let everybody know they are already a Discordian pope, and are now a certified authority on Discordianism, able to query the Goddess directly. Then ask others what Discordianism is. Take them seriously.
Yes. "Every man, woman, and child* on this Earth is an genuine and authorized Pope." Treat them as such.
Also, someone (ECH) once explained their Discordia as, "Militant Agnosticism". It has a nice ring to it.
*Might need to be updated to account for gender fluidity, but hey, it was a different time.
Quote from: LMNO on February 27, 2019, 01:05:47 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on February 27, 2019, 12:26:34 PM
I think you should pass out pope cards, let everybody know they are already a Discordian pope, and are now a certified authority on Discordianism, able to query the Goddess directly. Then ask others what Discordianism is. Take them seriously.
Yes. "Every man, woman, and child* on this Earth is an genuine and authorized Pope." Treat them as such.
Also, someone (ECH) once explained their Discordia as, "Militant Agnosticism". It has a nice ring to it.
*Might need to be updated to account for gender fluidity, but hey, it was a different time.
Someone, I think QGP, made a more neutral pope card.
Alrighty then, I'm just about ready to rattle off the email, but I might as well put this thread to more use and let you people nitpick improve my words. Thanks for the input, all, especially Cram (you can probably see I put in your shortform definition towards the end). I'm especially worried about my wording of the origin of Discordianism as MAL2 and Lord Omar "looking to explain chaos." I know that's part of the reason, but is it a tad...reductionist? I dunno. Feel free to add on to those defining ideas if you think I'm missing some big aspect of the PD there.
Here's the body as it stands, sans introduction, link to the PD (from this site, of course), and closing:
Like I mentioned after class on Tuesday, I'd love to hear your thoughts on joke religions; I suppose a more accurate name might be "parodic belief systems," as not all are necessarily theistic. I digress. As I mentioned to you, at the core of these belief systems is the desire to poke fun at theism, often done by taking its many tropes, adding a dash of humor, and either subverting them or taking them to the extreme in order to highlight the absurdities and silliness that often goes unnoticed in religion. Many of the more well-known joke religions are young, born just before or during the advent of the internet, and vary in complexity. Jediism and Dudeism are Buddhist and Taoist beliefs with coats of Star Wars and The Big Lewbowski-themed paint, for instance. Pastafarianism and The Invisible Pink Unicorn were created to criticize Christian intelligent design and creationism on one hand, and the arbitrary, unfalsifiable nature of religion in general on the other.
What I think you'll find more interesting, meanwhile, is the "joke disguised as a religion or religion disguised as a joke" that is Discordianism. It was founded in the '60s, a time where two young Americans looked at the world around them and wondered to themselves where all the strangeness and confusion, in their country of rules and order, came from. Their answer, as you might surmise from the religion's name, lied with the Greeks; they wanted a deity to help explain chaos, and Eris was a perfect fit. So, working from their central problem, the story of Eris throwing the golden apple into the crowd of the gods, and the anti-authority hippie counterculture of the '60s, the pair went and published the Principia Discordia.
Some of its defining ideas include:
"Every man, woman, and child on this Earth is a genuine and authorized Pope," whether they know it or not, and the fact that one is a Pope does not save one from criticism.
There is order in the world, as well as chaos, and both are an illusion of the mind that only mean something because we give them meaning.
Adherents are encouraged to believe what they want, and not let anyone's beliefs, even their own, be pushed on anyone else.
All of this, combined with subtle jabs at organized religion, including the use of numerology without a reasonable explanation, mocking the repetitive text in the Christian Bible, including absurd and vulgar phrases in its initiation rituals, and satirizing holy symbols (the Holy Chao is a very blatant Yin-Yang), makes Discordianism into a rather unique parody religion. Where there is basically one way to be a "proper" Pastafarian, there is no "proper" Discordianism; modern adherents say they have "their own" Eris/Discordia to worship as they see fit. For some, this actually does make Discordianism a religious experience. For others, it's "a collection of attitudes about beliefs, including skepticism towards organized religion, and a recognition of humor as something truly transcendent, which helps protect against rigidity, zeal, and ego." For others still, it's just a good excuse to make jokes. None of these viewpoints are necessarily "wrong" or necessarily "right."
I just did a similar thing for the UU church I go to. If you're serious about doing this right, I have a set of multifold pope cards with the more gender neutral language and some of the key essays all done up, I can upload the lot here.
I always recommend Holy Nonsense as a point of entry, not just because it's my baby but because it breaks things into shiny, digestible pieces and collects from PD, BIP, the Et Cetera Discordia and some other sources. The core idea of the project is also a great way to get people thinking more like a Discordian: what other religion encourages you to staple together bits and pieces of what you like into your own bible?
Recommended reading:
Finally, by Cram https://qgpennyworth.com/portfolios/finally/
Rejoice, by Gnimbley https://qgpennyworth.com/portfolios/rejoice/
The Parable of Steve, by Nigel https://qgpennyworth.com/portfolios/parable-of-steve/
There Is A Moon https://qgpennyworth.com/portfolios/there-is-a-moon/
Hearts and Minds, by Cain https://qgpennyworth.com/portfolios/hearts-and-minds/
Guerrilla Surrealism https://qgpennyworth.com/portfolios/guerrilla-surrealism/
Go Mindfuck Yourself, by Cram https://qgpennyworth.com/portfolios/gomfyourself/
Chaosophy, by Hexar https://qgpennyworth.com/portfolios/chaosophy/
The Strange Times, by Cram https://qgpennyworth.com/portfolios/the-strange-times/
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on February 28, 2019, 04:08:12 AM
I just did a similar thing for the UU church I go to. If you're serious about doing this right, I have a set of multifold pope cards with the more gender neutral language and some of the key essays all done up, I can upload the lot here.
Oh, I'll gladly do some PosterGASMing and Pope-card-proliferation some day, but for now I just want to introduce the ideas to the prof, simple as that. That said, I'll gladly keep those links in mind for the future. Thanks again, Q.G., you do great heckin' work. :)
If the professor lets you talk to the class about it, Pope Cards are mandatory.
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on February 28, 2019, 04:08:12 AM
Snip
While you're here and talking about HN, I should mention that I've been spreading it by way of proselytizing as I crossed the country. I was tenacious, really diggin up that childhood exposure to evangelism, and got all of them to at least open a tab or download it. There were at least three people in Fresno, one of whom was a mental health counselor.
It's not even the discordian messages. It's the whole package. From any perspective, for any person I give a damn about, it's a crucial read.
And ftr, my go to when someone's having a bad mental health day is to point them at There Is A Moon. And it always helps, at least a little.
Oh, also you'll want A Brief Explanation, another one of Cram's https://qgpennyworth.com/portfolios/explanation/
Quote from: nullified on February 28, 2019, 04:24:42 AM
While you're here and talking about HN, I should mention that I've been spreading it by way of proselytizing as I crossed the country. I was tenacious, really diggin up that childhood exposure to evangelism, and got all of them to at least open a tab or download it. There were at least three people in Fresno, one of whom was a mental health counselor.
It's not even the discordian messages. It's the whole package. From any perspective, for any person I give a damn about, it's a crucial read.
And ftr, my go to when someone's having a bad mental health day is to point them at There Is A Moon. And it always helps, at least a little.
I really appreciate it! The facebook page has started taking on a life of its own, I'm doing my best to update here and there but even on the days where I put nothing in the likes are trickling in. Have you seen some of the post 2017 material?
:lulz: :lulz: :lulz: We'll see if they even give me the time of day about this email, then we'll see how they like things like the cards and posters and the BIP. Frankly, I think university admins will have a bigger stick up the butt about it than the prof will if I go about pan-pontificating. But hey, if they do, I can just throw the constitution back in their faces. :lol: Even if the prof likes what they read, we're close to the end of the quarter anyway, so we'll see what they do with the new, weird info.
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on February 28, 2019, 04:34:52 AM
I really appreciate it! The facebook page has started taking on a life of its own, I'm doing my best to update here and there but even on the days where I put nothing in the likes are trickling in. Have you seen some of the post 2017 material?
I think I saw one piece of it. Is there a place with it all collected? I have a hankering for some good reading material and I can't sleep worth a damn lately.
The email is sent. Now we wait for tomorrow. Methinks I'll have a fun conversation after class with the teach. :lulz:
Quote from: nullified on February 28, 2019, 04:37:00 AM
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on February 28, 2019, 04:34:52 AM
I really appreciate it! The facebook page has started taking on a life of its own, I'm doing my best to update here and there but even on the days where I put nothing in the likes are trickling in. Have you seen some of the post 2017 material?
I think I saw one piece of it. Is there a place with it all collected? I have a hankering for some good reading material and I can't sleep worth a damn lately.
Facebook's the most up to date, I posted some here and some on the tumblr, I can try and get a full dump for you tomorrow.
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on February 28, 2019, 04:41:44 AM
Quote from: nullified on February 28, 2019, 04:37:00 AM
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on February 28, 2019, 04:34:52 AM
I really appreciate it! The facebook page has started taking on a life of its own, I'm doing my best to update here and there but even on the days where I put nothing in the likes are trickling in. Have you seen some of the post 2017 material?
I think I saw one piece of it. Is there a place with it all collected? I have a hankering for some good reading material and I can't sleep worth a damn lately.
Facebook's the most up to date, I posted some here and some on the tumblr, I can try and get a full dump for you tomorrow.
I'd be super appreciative. I'm sure there's some golden material worth spreading around in there too... If you can, drop me an email, the dimmekur account, when it's ready. My sleep schedule is shifting to morning through early afternoon, and the reminder will be nice.
As is my wont, instead of just delivering the work already done like a sane person, I have taken this as an opportunity to add to my backlog by formatting new things.
This thread made me smile a lot. :D
One small, tiny, plank-length metaphysics quibble. I find this is a common "rake in the grass" when first getting to know Discordia from the historical materials, and Greg Hill once sermonized on early usenet posts on the topic. Disorder =/= Chaos
[ Order --><-- Disorder ] <------ Chaos
Confusing these grids causes a lot more non-meaning in our holy nonsense.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled quantum static.
Quote from: Telarus on March 05, 2019, 12:26:30 AM
This thread made me smile a lot. :D
One small, tiny, plank-length metaphysics quibble. I find this is a common "rake in the grass" when first getting to know Discordia from the historical materials, and Greg Hill once sermonized on early usenet posts on the topic. Disorder =/= Chaos
[ Order --><-- Disorder ] <------ Chaos
Confusing these grids causes a lot more non-meaning in our holy nonsense.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled quantum static.
Forgive me for my mushy newspag brain, but I'm not sure I totally understand ya here. If I had to take a stab at it, is the idea that "this isn't about order vs disorder, this is about chaos, which causes the polarity of order and disorder"? Is it that "disorder = chaos is a fallacy, the truth is that chaos = disorder
and order"? Am I close? Either way, thanks for the critique. Like my icon says, I'm just tryn'a Listen and Learn, y'know what I mean?
Glad to make you smile (and have you back!) Telarus. If I do indeed understand what you're getting at (or if I don't and you teach my dumb ass), I'll be sure to mention that quibble to the prof. They've yet to respond to the email, so time will tell where the conversation goes. Cheers.
Quote from: Al Qədic on March 05, 2019, 02:53:19 AM
Quote from: Telarus on March 05, 2019, 12:26:30 AM
This thread made me smile a lot. :D
One small, tiny, plank-length metaphysics quibble. I find this is a common "rake in the grass" when first getting to know Discordia from the historical materials, and Greg Hill once sermonized on early usenet posts on the topic. Disorder =/= Chaos
[ Order --><-- Disorder ] <------ Chaos
Confusing these grids causes a lot more non-meaning in our holy nonsense.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled quantum static.
Forgive me for my mushy newspag brain, but I'm not sure I totally understand ya here. If I had to take a stab at it, is the idea that "this isn't about order vs disorder, this is about chaos, which causes the polarity of order and disorder"? Is it that "disorder = chaos is a fallacy, the truth is that chaos = disorder and order"
The latter.
Chaos is the primordial state. We, in our human stupidity, classify it into disorder and order. Change your grid often and you'll see that what is disorder can be order and what is order can be disorder, all is just facets of the same thing.
The Ancient Greeks used the word Chaos differently than we do - this usage is what Mal and Omar meant:
Quote from: Edith HamiltonFirst there was Chaos, the vast immeasurable abyss,. Outrageous as a sea, dark, wasteful, wild.
Chaos is the raw universe, before it's filtered through your perceptions and nervous system and labeled.
If you're looking at an object and say "that's a pen, it's used for writing", you've
created order, you've put a label on the matter, now it makes it make sense to you. But without human perception, it's not a pen. It isn't anything.
"is"-ness is a human perception, it's not present in the 'source code'.
Quote from: Cramulus
A Koan
Golden Rod approached the monk Nopants.
"Master Nopants, what can I learn by observing Primal Chaos?"
The master held up a pen. "Do you know what this is?"
"Yes, it's a pen."
The master said "I use it to scratch my balls."
That's why the first Discordian season is Chaos - it's the beginning state, before anything is formed. It's the source of all things.
Chaos is the stuff we cut up into segments called order and disorder so we can be comfortable with it.
Part of the rinzai-discordian spirit is recognizing that a lot of the labels we impose on the chaos (good and evil, good and bad, good and plenty) are just words. That doesn't mean they're not real (social constructs are real too). But it does make their reality mutable.
QuoteA farmer and his son had a beloved horse who helped the family earn a living. One day, the horse ran away and their neighbours exclaimed, "Your horse ran away, what terrible luck!" The farmer replied, "Maybe."
A few days later, the horse returned home, leading a few wild horses back to the farm as well. The neighbors shouted out, "Your horse has returned, and brought several horses home with him. What great luck!" The farmer replied, "Maybe."
Later that week, the farmer's son was trying to break one of the horses and she threw him to the ground, breaking his leg. The neighbours cried, "Your son broke his leg, what terrible luck!" The farmer replied, "Maybe."
A few weeks later, soldiers from the national army marched through town, recruiting all boys for the army. They did not take the farmer's son, because he had a broken leg. The neighbours shouted, "Your boy is spared, what tremendous luck!" To which the farmer replied, "Maybe."
Quote from: Chao te Ching, Chapter 4
This is Chaos: it is everything, including itself.
All of Starbuck's Pebbles come from it.
It confuses Order, it arranges Disorder.
It multiplies its opposite, it positively negates.
Lying below life, lining the world.
The origin of all patterns.
It has existed before we observed it.
Ok, that last one's not quite accurate.
You can't really observe Chaos, just the consequences.
Quote from: Chapter 25There is Something that exists,
beyond the Illusions of Order and Disorder.
It is all things, and unknowable in full.
We only see small parts of It,
but are convinced what we see is the entire Universe.
For lack of a better name, I call It "Chaos".
At dinner parties, I claim It is everything Possible and Impossible.
When asked why not call It "god",
I point out that their head is too fucking small.
Because we create the Illusions in which we live,
we are more creative than Chaos.
Because we believe in the Illusions we create,
our heads are too fucking small.
In this way, we reflect our creations.
This is like the reverse of the usual order of koans and commentary.
Damn Discordians are all DOING IT WRONG
So apparently the first email I sent the Prof must've gotten lost in their spam somewhere. :argh!: So I've sent it again, this time with the bit about disorder =/= chaos among the bullet points. Whee.
Quote from: Al Qədic on March 05, 2019, 02:53:19 AM
Is it that "disorder = chaos is a fallacy, the truth is that chaos = disorder and order"? Am I close? Either way, thanks for the critique. Like my icon says, I'm just tryn'a Listen and Learn, y'know what I mean?
Nailed it.
Thanks for the followup posts spags. That was awesome.
Another update; apparently the Prof can't even see the emails I've sent them. Literally, searching my email in their inbox pulls nothing up. They're looking into it, at this rate I'll be glad when they just get to read the thing, let alone look at the PD. I don't wanna assume shit, regarding the school and censorship/privacy, but maaaaaan I kind of want to assume shit, knowing that. :lulz:
Quote from: Al Qədic on March 13, 2019, 08:45:43 PM
Another update; apparently the Prof can't even see the emails I've sent them. Literally, searching my email in their inbox pulls nothing up. They're looking into it, at this rate I'll be glad when they just get to read the thing, let alone look at the PD. I don't wanna assume shit, regarding the school and censorship/privacy, but maaaaaan I kind of want to assume shit, knowing that. :lulz:
Print out hard copies?
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on March 13, 2019, 08:50:14 PM
Quote from: Al Qədic on March 13, 2019, 08:45:43 PM
Another update; apparently the Prof can't even see the emails I've sent them. Literally, searching my email in their inbox pulls nothing up. They're looking into it, at this rate I'll be glad when they just get to read the thing, let alone look at the PD. I don't wanna assume shit, regarding the school and censorship/privacy, but maaaaaan I kind of want to assume shit, knowing that. :lulz:
Print out hard copies?
Of an email? I just might, at this rate. If they still can't find the email by tomorrow, I'll bring that up to them after class. Maybe I'll sneak it/the link to the PD into my final paper for the class, maybe in the works cited page. :lulz: ...actually, I probably
could do that, depending on what the prompt is for the essay. :eek:
Quote from: Al Qədic on March 13, 2019, 09:01:28 PM
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on March 13, 2019, 08:50:14 PM
Quote from: Al Qədic on March 13, 2019, 08:45:43 PM
Another update; apparently the Prof can't even see the emails I've sent them. Literally, searching my email in their inbox pulls nothing up. They're looking into it, at this rate I'll be glad when they just get to read the thing, let alone look at the PD. I don't wanna assume shit, regarding the school and censorship/privacy, but maaaaaan I kind of want to assume shit, knowing that. :lulz:
Print out hard copies?
Of an email? I just might, at this rate. If they still can't find the email by tomorrow, I'll bring that up to them after class. Maybe I'll sneak it/the link to the PD into my final paper for the class, maybe in the works cited page. :lulz: ...actually, I probably could do that, depending on what the prompt is for the essay. :eek:
If it were me, I would express mild exasperation that "this kinda shit happens all the time".
But then again, I'm a stinker.
The Lady works in mysterious ways, and i fully think something like this was to be expected :lulz:
You should ask LMNO what happened when he invoked her in the mornings during a week... I dont even want to write out the phrase even if it doesnt imply speaking it. :eek:
Quote from: The Johnny on March 13, 2019, 09:39:15 PM
The Lady works in mysterious ways, and i fully think something like this was to be expected :lulz:
You should ask LMNO what happened when he invoked her in the mornings during a week... I dont even want to write out the phrase even if it doesnt imply speaking it. :eek:
It was 30 DAYS, fool!
Quote from: Hoopla! on March 13, 2019, 09:48:48 PM
Quote from: The Johnny on March 13, 2019, 09:39:15 PM
The Lady works in mysterious ways, and i fully think something like this was to be expected :lulz:
You should ask LMNO what happened when he invoked her in the mornings during a week... I dont even want to write out the phrase even if it doesnt imply speaking it. :eek:
It was 30 DAYS, fool!
Fine, fine, if you remember so well could you tell the fellow the phrase? :fnord: :fap:
oh hell no
I will not directly quote that madness but I'll gladly inform you that LMNO asked Eris for a surprise.
When? Who knows! Maybe even today.
Can I get a link to the relevant thread at least?
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on March 13, 2019, 10:29:16 PM
Can I get a link to the relevant thread at least?
https://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php/topic,24245.msg837915.html#msg837915
Quote from: nullified on March 13, 2019, 10:33:38 PM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on March 13, 2019, 10:29:16 PM
Can I get a link to the relevant thread at least?
https://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php/topic,24245.msg837915.html#msg837915
Thank you!
I find it hilarious that the OPs title to that thread has changed to "An Error Has Occurred!", a testament to why im never ever saying that phrase
:lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
A little more about the layer of reality behind our perceptions
No, Chairs do not exist (http://steve-patterson.com/no-chairs-do-not-exist/)
Quote from: Cramulus on March 19, 2019, 11:42:12 AM
A little more about the layer of reality behind our perceptions
No, Chairs do not exist (http://steve-patterson.com/no-chairs-do-not-exist/)
That's an interesting article, and although I find it hard to find fault with his premises, I don't think I agree with his conclusion.
There are two domains in play here, a human "conceptual space", in which we can find the idea of a chair, and a "particle space", which is an arrangement of particles and fields. The article demonstrates (repeatedly) that there is not a well-defined one-to-one mapping between concept space and particle space. If you cut a quarter inch off of a chair leg to level it, particle space has clearly been altered. However, the fact that our "chair-to-particle collection" mapping persists, even when the particles have been rearranged somewhat, does not invalidate this mapping.
Human conceptual mappings are fuzzy, mutable, often inconsistent, and resist rigorous definition. But I'm sitting on something, which obviously exists. My brain has labelled it "chair". Saying that the chair does not exist simply because my concept of it is not strongly coupled to the physical reality of its constituent particles doesn't make sense to me. "Nonexistence" is for when we have a one-to-zero mapping, that is, when the concept in my head doesn't have a corresponding entity in particle space. Once you've taken an axe to my chair,
then it ceases to exist. The particles are still there, but that particular rearrangement of them means that there's nothing for my chair-idea to map to.
Quote from: Cramulus on March 19, 2019, 11:42:12 AM
A little more about the layer of reality behind our perceptions
No, Chairs do not exist (http://steve-patterson.com/no-chairs-do-not-exist/)
This is just goading people to crack him over the head with a barstool.
Quote from: chaotic neutral observer on March 19, 2019, 01:11:12 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on March 19, 2019, 11:42:12 AM
A little more about the layer of reality behind our perceptions
No, Chairs do not exist (http://steve-patterson.com/no-chairs-do-not-exist/)
That's an interesting article, and although I find it hard to find fault with his premises, I don't think I agree with his conclusion.
There are two domains in play here, a human "conceptual space", in which we can find the idea of a chair, and a "particle space", which is an arrangement of particles and fields. The article demonstrates (repeatedly) that there is not a well-defined one-to-one mapping between concept space and particle space. If you cut a quarter inch off of a chair leg to level it, particle space has clearly been altered. However, the fact that our "chair-to-particle collection" mapping persists, even when the particles have been rearranged somewhat, does not invalidate this mapping.
Human conceptual mappings are fuzzy, mutable, often inconsistent, and resist rigorous definition. But I'm sitting on something, which obviously exists. My brain has labelled it "chair". Saying that the chair does not exist simply because my concept of it is not strongly coupled to the physical reality of its constituent particles doesn't make sense to me. "Nonexistence" is for when we have a one-to-zero mapping, that is, when the concept in my head doesn't have a corresponding entity in particle space. Once you've taken an axe to my chair, then it ceases to exist. The particles are still there, but that particular rearrangement of them means that there's nothing for my chair-idea to map to.
The article doesn't claim physical reality doesn't exist. You're still sitting on something, but it's your mind that created the category of "chair", and placed that collection of molecules into that category.
Cram once told a story about a zen master who held something up to his student. "What is this?" he asked.
The student looked it over thoughfully. "It is a pen." the student finally answered.
The zen master looked at the student. "I scratch my balls with it." the master said.
Quote from: Hoopla! on March 19, 2019, 01:50:33 PM
Quote from: chaotic neutral observer on March 19, 2019, 01:11:12 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on March 19, 2019, 11:42:12 AM
A little more about the layer of reality behind our perceptions
No, Chairs do not exist (http://steve-patterson.com/no-chairs-do-not-exist/)
That's an interesting article, and although I find it hard to find fault with his premises, I don't think I agree with his conclusion.
There are two domains in play here, a human "conceptual space", in which we can find the idea of a chair, and a "particle space", which is an arrangement of particles and fields. The article demonstrates (repeatedly) that there is not a well-defined one-to-one mapping between concept space and particle space. If you cut a quarter inch off of a chair leg to level it, particle space has clearly been altered. However, the fact that our "chair-to-particle collection" mapping persists, even when the particles have been rearranged somewhat, does not invalidate this mapping.
Human conceptual mappings are fuzzy, mutable, often inconsistent, and resist rigorous definition. But I'm sitting on something, which obviously exists. My brain has labelled it "chair". Saying that the chair does not exist simply because my concept of it is not strongly coupled to the physical reality of its constituent particles doesn't make sense to me. "Nonexistence" is for when we have a one-to-zero mapping, that is, when the concept in my head doesn't have a corresponding entity in particle space. Once you've taken an axe to my chair, then it ceases to exist. The particles are still there, but that particular rearrangement of them means that there's nothing for my chair-idea to map to.
The article doesn't claim physical reality doesn't exist. You're still sitting on something, but it's your mind that created the category of "chair", and placed that collection of molecules into that category.
Err...well, yes. I thought I said as much. I've bolded the relevant sentences above.
Quote
Cram once told a story about a zen master who held something up to his student. "What is this?" he asked.
The student looked it over thoughfully. "It is a pen." the student finally answered.
The zen master looked at the student. "I scratch my balls with it." the master said.
My claim is that both the pen and the ball-scratcher can be said to exist, since there is a real-world collection of atoms corresponding to both the master and the student's concepts.
right now, I'm sitting on this thing I call a snootborg. Snootborgs are just as real as chairs.
If snootborgs are real, are gizzypumps also real? food for thought!
Quote from: chaotic neutral observer on March 19, 2019, 02:07:57 PM
My claim is that both the pen and the ball-scratcher can be said to exist, since there is a real-world collection of atoms corresponding to both the master and the student's concepts.
and the collection of atoms
and the label we put on it
exist in very different senses
our minds miss this, constantly.
(http://www.polaroidland.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Screen-shot-2012-02-03-at-12.35.21-PM.png)
In the Flintstones, cameras have this little bird inside of them. When someone opens the camera shutter, the bird looks at what's outside and pecks a slate until an image appears, which looks
to him like what's outside. The bird also cracks jokes, and comments on everything.
And we're like this -- inside of our heads, five birds are constantly pecking---and that's
all we've ever known of reality.
We
think we are seeing reality, but it's a rough collage made by five wisecrackin' birds.
Hold on, I got something for this...
....
:barstool:
Not quite the point Cram is making.
The point Cram is making is that our ideas about what a thing /is/ are fake, human ideas. Those things don't exist, but the things they are about do.
To use the barstool experiment framework it would be using a piece of it to beat a man who insists it is a barstool and so can only be used for sitting.
I'm ok with a chair beatdown in that scenario.
Quote from: Hoopla! on March 19, 2019, 01:50:33 PM
The article doesn't claim physical reality doesn't exist. You're still sitting on something, but it's your mind that created the category of "chair", and placed that collection of molecules into that category.
Cram once told a story about a zen master who held something up to his student. "What is this?" he asked.
The student looked it over thoughfully. "It is a pen." the student finally answered.
The zen master looked at the student. "I scratch my balls with it." the master said.
I have used the "ideal Chair"/chair paradox in my own practice. My final mantra is
IS IT STILL A CHAIR WHEN IT IS ON FIRE?!?!
Quote from: Telarus on March 20, 2019, 08:41:30 PM
Quote from: Hoopla! on March 19, 2019, 01:50:33 PM
The article doesn't claim physical reality doesn't exist. You're still sitting on something, but it's your mind that created the category of "chair", and placed that collection of molecules into that category.
Cram once told a story about a zen master who held something up to his student. "What is this?" he asked.
The student looked it over thoughfully. "It is a pen." the student finally answered.
The zen master looked at the student. "I scratch my balls with it." the master said.
I have used the "ideal Chair"/chair paradox in my own practice. My final mantra is
IS IT STILL A CHAIR WHEN IT IS ON FIRE?!?!
:lulz: metaphysics for pyromaniacs!
What we are talking about is the mind's ability to "abstract" (in the Korzybskian sense), that is to create a symbol and collect meaning for it based on experienced context.
The symbol exists, in the mind(s). The things we use it to refer to exist in physical reality (mostly). Here's the rub...
WE CAN ENCODE OUR SYMBOLS ONTO REALITY AND COME BACK FOR THEM LATER
Well, no. We didn't leave the actual 'symbol' there, just a bunch of scratches on the rock which trigger the symbol to re-manifest into the mind of any viewer that has had previous contextual experiences with that symbol.
A physical chair is both something we have crafted for a specific purpose, and an inherent trigger of the symbol we used as the model to craft it. My silat guru likes to theorize that the original "stone handaxe" might have been an attempt to copy the Pattern of a mega-white shark tooth found on the beach (we have been semi aquatic apes through most of our existence). But once the symbol has been passed down a few generations and people start crafting things like this "archetype hand axe" (https://mcopesblog.wordpress.com/2013/03/29/on-the-master-hand-axe-from-kathu-pan/) (i.e. a perfect tool-form that has NO SIGNS OF WEAR), then the symbol has evolved from "my stone shark tooth" to something else entirely. It has gained life beyond a single individual's mind.
Symbols have "historical momentum" in this way, and we have to navigate our own personal jungle of direct-experiental-context and passed-to-us-from-the-historical-momentum-context for every symbol we use.
Your ego is a symbol for the "story" you tell yourself about yourself.
The "you" sitting there now is not the "you" that was there when you opened the browser tab. It just calls itself "me" also.
(Good being back around people who actually talk about this stuff.)
*Edit: found a good link: https://mcopesblog.wordpress.com/2013/03/29/on-the-master-hand-axe-from-kathu-pan/
I'll just say again that you have REALLY been missed, Telarus, and I wasn't joking about releasing the death-jackals if ever you leave again.
Amazing post.
2nd'd
Thrice stated!
Telarus is a nerd! :argh!:
But yes, if he leaves again I will start executing hostages.
I didn't realize how much I missed this stuff until it came back.
Not much worth reporting, but the fact that the new quarter started and I have another class with this prof made me remember this thread; I gave them the printed-out email. Snuck in a hail Eris at the end of my final essay (wrote about Tricksters and Chaos, it was great). Now this next class is about women warriors, lots of Amazons, Wonder Woman, all that jazz. Should be nice. I'll ask the prof before class tomorrow if they actually read the bloody email.
Also I love how you people can so seamlessly move the topic of discussion away from the original talking point, that was neat to watch here. :lulz: