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We're still starting up, things will change as we figure things out.  The forums in question suffered through debate before they were put up, so we'll see what happens.

That long?

I can't seem to make my avatar work over there. 

Is it giving you any reason or is it just not loading?  No one else had had problems yet and we have a bunch of people with avatars. 

I think making them suggestions will help head off a lot of problems, because as you've seen, most people read the word "guidelines" as synonymous with "rules".

Also, forums that come off as uptight with a bunch of rules and behavior guidelines are absolute troll magnets. FYI. Forums that seem super laid-back with very hands-off mods and membership that deals with problems by either playing with or ignoring them aren't very interesting to trolls.

That's what we're trying for.  There are only two rules.  The Spirit of the Forum is meant to be a snapshot of what we are hoping for, not something to beat people over the head with.  All the discussion here helped us get that clarified a bit because obviously how we were seeing it wasn't how other people did.

Gambit from the X-Men

Conduct, eh? And what if people do not conduct themselves in a manner you feel is appropriate or right or whatever? That's a word to watch for.

Honestly I was having a brain glitch and couldn't come up with a better word.

People will either not want to deal with them or will get upset with them or both and the community will work as a group to create the type of place they want to be in.  If things get REALLY against the Spirit of the Forum a mod will jump in and mention it.  If people are attacking other people it will be suggested they take it to the fight area.  If people are trying to shove their path violently down people throats they'll be pointed to "convert me".  

The spelling things out is because a lot of people do better with that.  The ones who don't probably won't read it anyway.

Becuase it's not like anyone will cry butthurt and use the guidelines to point the finger at someone.

Are you prepared to tell someone to suck it up when they come crying to you because someone else 'broke' the guidelines?

I'll actually point them to the part that says they ought to deal with the person themselves (like an adult...) first.  If they still have a problem I'll discuss growing a thicker skin and possibly have a PM conversation with the two of them.

Any they are now suggestions, not guidelines, btw.

I think I've figured out where the glitch is.  You guys are talking about the Spirit of the Forum like it is something that people are going to get bans of some type or another for.  That's not what it's there for or the point of it at all.  The idea of it is to give a general outline for new members to get a feel for the type of conduct we're hoping to have on the boards.

We cleaned it up some last night and reposted it.  I think we're going to see how things go from here and adjust as necessary.

I really appreciate all the suggestions and discussion.  PD is PD, TCC is TCC and TSC are still figuring out what they are going to be. 

[being able to be as much of a jackass as is possible without getting personal. If you don't have the freedom to shout and verbally abuse the void, then it's pretty much just glorified and sanctimonious ass kissing.]

I'd just like to suggest to Wyldkat that REAL respect is earned through being able to be as much of a jackass as is possible without getting personal.  If you don't have the freedom to shout and verbally abuse the void, then it's pretty much just glorified and sanctimonious ass kissing.  

A forum with a "No jackassery" policy is already going down the road of "No, YOU shut up!" with the ban button as an argument winner.  

What she said.

I rather agree with the bolded part.

Ok then.  Here's the guideline (not a rule):

III. Do Not Be a Jackass
This means, but is not limited to:
A.  Editing your messages to considerably change the content after a message can be assumed to have been read.
B.  Trolling (posting material just to stir up trouble or start flame wars).
C.  Proselytizing for any religion, except in Convert Me!.
D.  Sharing intimate personal details in inappropriate threads; there is an Adult forum for a reason. Use of gratuitous offensive language.
E.  Causing drama simply for the sake of causing drama, be it between people or between boards.
F.  Using an offensive or inappropriate username, custom title, avatar, signature, etc.

How else can we phrase this to give people an idea for the type of atmosphere we are going for and not fall under the issues you all have with it?

Why is asking for respectful behavior in a guideline a problem?

I genuinely want to know what you all have to say about these questions.

I fully agree with A, B and D are all right, but C and E-F is bullshit.  "You can say whatever you want, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone's feelings.  Oh my virgin ears/tender sensibilities!"

If you still don't get it, I give up and you're doomed to failure.

I get it, but I'm not sure I agree 100%.  They are guidelines/suggestions to give people an idea of the feel of the forum.  Putting that in there helps express the feel we are looking for.  It's not a "virgin ears" issue, more of a you don't normally cuss like a sailor in church, a college class, a nice restaurant, etc... concept.

It's not like we're going to jump on people for cussing normally or even that we'd jump on someone for cussing a lot.  It's just the feel we are aiming for.

[being able to be as much of a jackass as is possible without getting personal. If you don't have the freedom to shout and verbally abuse the void, then it's pretty much just glorified and sanctimonious ass kissing.]

I'd just like to suggest to Wyldkat that REAL respect is earned through being able to be as much of a jackass as is possible without getting personal.  If you don't have the freedom to shout and verbally abuse the void, then it's pretty much just glorified and sanctimonious ass kissing.  

A forum with a "No jackassery" policy is already going down the road of "No, YOU shut up!" with the ban button as an argument winner.  

What she said.

I rather agree with the bolded part.

Ok then.  Here's the guideline (not a rule):

III. Do Not Be a Jackass
This means, but is not limited to:
A.  Editing your messages to considerably change the content after a message can be assumed to have been read.
B.  Trolling (posting material just to stir up trouble or start flame wars).
C.  Proselytizing for any religion, except in Convert Me!.
D.  Sharing intimate personal details in inappropriate threads; there is an Adult forum for a reason. Use of gratuitous offensive language.
E.  Causing drama simply for the sake of causing drama, be it between people or between boards.
F.  Using an offensive or inappropriate username, custom title, avatar, signature, etc.

How else can we phrase this to give people an idea for the type of atmosphere we are going for and not fall under the issues you all have with it?

Why is asking for respectful behavior in a guideline a problem?

I genuinely want to know what you all have to say about these questions.

Also is is not specifically a pagan forum.  It is a pagan based interfaith forum.  We're hoping to get people of all paths to come by and participate.

I'll pass, for the reasons I gave above.

I don't like Pagans (CPD aside), and just as I wouldn't go to a party full of people I hate (unless I was there to pee in the punch), I won't be going to a Pagan-based forum for any reason that doesn't involve mayhem.

That's fine.  I was just clarifying the concept. 

"Don't be a jackass" is part of the Spirit of the Forum.  It's not a rule, it is a guideline for the type of community we are striving for.  There are absolutely no plans to enforce them beyond reminding people about the Spirit of the Forum and ask people who are fighting to take it to the Fight Club.

I'm not against changing it to suggestions.  I'll discuss it with the others.  It might say suggestions in there as it is.  I know it did in one revision.

And please participate, anyone who wants to.  Participate as yourselves whatever that might entail.  We do ask that you keep the Spirit of the Forum in mind, mainly the attack posts not people and be respectful of different paths parts.  We are asking, not demanding.

Also is is not specifically a pagan forum.  It is a pagan based interfaith forum.  We're hoping to get people of all paths to come by and participate.

[TGRR's Dictum: A Pagan board will go mod-happy just as soon as they have a base of believers that have to be "protected" from any test of their ideas from an outside person or group.]

Well, having put more thought into it, I think the world needs more Pagan forums.  I mean, it's not like every cafe druid and cherohonkey with a copy of Mists of Avalon hasn't started one, or that they ALL turn out the same way.

Prediction:  No matter how good the intent of the 3 people involved, no matter what examples they have to warn them, within months they'll be strongarming people with the mod button.

Why?  Because Paganism is - and always has been - about control.  Gardiner and his friends, in Wicca's case, wrote that RIGHT INTO THE RELIGION...So that they could use it to control the rubes that followed them.  

TGRR's Dictum:  A Pagan board will go mod-happy just as soon as they have a base of believers that have to be "protected" from any test of their ideas from an outside person or group.

If they can't survive a test of their ideas then they need to grow a pair and figure out where the big kid underpants drawer is....

I'm very curious if we will last and have the forum run the way we want it to.  Paganism isn't Gardner.  Not only that, but The Spiritual Crossroads is a pagan based interfaith forum.  The long term goal is to have people of all paths there sharing and learning in a respectful but real environment.

Ok the rules have been cleaned up and the Spirit of the Forum has been changed to be more readable with a little clarification in the process.  Hopefully that should work, but if there are any more suggestions, please let us know.

Are you guys really this naive? You sound like children. "Follow all US law" is so vaguely worded as to be virtually useless. "Don't do illegal stuff" is actually better. "Don't do illegal stuff on the forum" is slightly better still.

If you want to word it in a way that is useful, try "Do not post content that is in violation of US law, such as child porn, illegal file sharing links, and threats of harm toward any person."

Read the rules here to see what useful wording looks like.

Thanks!  Any problem with me just copying that and replacing what we have?  I thought "Follow U.S. law" pretty much covered everything, but your version is better.

Having read the rules.....

On that note:

++Post legibly in a normal writing style.  Use capital letters, lower case letters and appropriate punctuation.  Write in short paragraphs separated by blank lines and don't write in "netspeak."++

This seriously NEEDS a re-write. Or it will cause problems.

I suggest going the "it's only a guideline" route for this specific topic. Also, just inform people not to be surprised if the general forum population refuses to respond, or responds in a negative way to such "outlandish" behavior if it is repeated unnecessarily. Mention that this is a response out of the Modreation teams hands unless attacks get personal. See rule #...     ..oh, that's another thing. Look into an outline structure.

How would you suggest it get re-worded?

The Spirit of the Forums are not rules, just guidelines.  I guess we didn't get that across clearly enough.  I'll see about an outline set up or something for it.

I only see two rules.

What exactly do you mean by "follow all US law"?

Follow all U.S. laws.

I am very in favor of there only being two rules, BTW, I am just thinking that second one needs VERY serious clarification.

How do you clarify follow all U.S. laws?

I also applaud not putting your content behind a log-in wall (my first turn-off from TCC). You will have to deal with spam and spider-bots, so I hope some-one is capable of that type of user/database management.

Babs has a decent grasp of that shit. And I can pick it up fairly quickly. So long as no one expects me to re-write the original code. And no one distracts me with something shiny and/or a pizza.

I'm a tech moron...  

You can't post unless you register and there are some boards that aren't viewable without registering, as well as a couple of post count related boards.

Having read the rules.....

If y'all have any comments, questions, suggestions, or snark about the rules we've got there, please let me know. I am curious about how this is going to go over.

Yes, please!  There is a suggestions board.  There are only three actual rules at the moment.