Buried deep inside of you, in the heart of every hominid, there's a Raging Creature. It's a Killer born of 10 million years of natural selection, a true gift from God.
No matter how timid or peaceful you may think yourself, The Holy Rage is there, buzzing and shrieking just below your consciousness. It is not a mere "fight or flight" response!! It is your very soul retaliating against anything that would bring your life to an end or threaten those that you love. In a very real sense it is the Love That Kills.
The Holy Rage may be a hot, burning thing or maybe a cold and icy, but horrifically violent, detachment. It's every ounce of your very being gushing out in a torrent with but one purpose.
That purpose is Survival!
That purpose is Retaliation!
The Holy Rage is life!
The Holy Rage brings death!
You will bite, and kick, and claw!! You will howl like a Lunatic and throw whatever comes to hand!! You will gouge eyes and crush genitals!! You will bash a head into the concrete over and over until the white meat shows!!
The Holy Rage knows no honor, no rules, no mercy, and fears no consequences. It is your Self Set Ablaze!! It is your entire Being screaming out,
"I AM, AND YOU ARE FUCKED!!!!!"
If you doubt me get a mattress and a baseball bat. Think of something that has hurt you and made you angry in your life. Shriek out a War Cry and begin to swing. Intentionally continue to scream and swing! The Savage Ape inside of you will begin to have fun! Continue until your throat is raw and your limbs are heavy and dead. You are likely to feel euphoric. This is because you are engineered to LIKE IT.
This is the primal magic of The Holy Rage.
This is the essence of Life in the face of Death.
This is where your True Self dwells.
This is your Salvation when there is no help.
This is the true face of a personal Revolution.
Embrace it.
Don't confuse power with holiness.
There is an animal in you, yes, and it wants to live. This is an essential part of the human, but it is not the "true human". It's an animal.
The Sacred Retaliatory Murder thumps in the chest of the mass shooter, the terrorist, the neverending feud seeking eye after eye after eye. Every terrorist feels justified. Every war is fought in 'defense of those we love'1 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Yoshihiro_Hattori). .
Beating the shit out of a mattress, or a person, may make you feel euphoric. It is precisely this euphoria that we need to be worried about, that we need to doubt and distance ourselves from2 (https://www.nytimes.com/1983/03/08/science/venting-anger-may-do-more-harm-than-good.html).
Rage is momentary. But we all have to live in the season of aftermath (https://www.nytimes.com/1993/05/24/us/acquittal-in-doorstep-killing-of-japanese-student.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm).
I say--the personal revolution is the triumph over the animal. The animal is emotional, horny, & hungry. And you do need to address these needs. There is a time for rage. But keep the animal on a leash. Who can hold the leash, who can direct the animal? That, not the animal, is the true self.
Do you actually need to "triumph over the animal", or couldn't you just like, love it to submission? The Animal is after all ancient and mighty, proud of every evolutionary innovation it has gathered through the years.
It is a sort of thing I'd much rather have as a friend than a slave.
when you are holding a physical or metaphorical gun, and are emotionally charged (with fear, anger, or zeal), there is an internal struggle -- if love is the right tool for that moment, then so be it.
Love can beget Rage. The mass shooter does not use The Holy Rage, which exists to violently preserve life, but a fear of that which they cannot control. I sincerely think you're just squeamish Cram. You intellectualize that which has nothing to do with intellect, it is a fundamental part of you at all times. It can and must be controlled to function as a complete human being, you cannot do this If you deny it.
Quote from: Con-troll on March 17, 2019, 12:54:31 PM
Do you actually need to "triumph over the animal", or couldn't you just like, love it to submission? The Animal is after all ancient and mighty, proud of every evolutionary innovation it has gathered through the years.
It is a sort of thing I'd much rather have as a friend than a slave.
Precisely.
Quote from: Cramulus on March 17, 2019, 12:45:09 PM
Don't confuse power with holiness.
Balls. The more powerful I get, the more holy I get. This is OBSERVABLE FACT.
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on March 17, 2019, 03:43:12 PM
Love can beget Rage. The mass shooter does not use The Holy Rage, which exists to violently preserve life, but a fear of that which they cannot control. I sincerely think you're just squeamish Cram. You intellectualize that which has nothing to do with intellect, it is a fundamental part of you at all times. It can and must be controlled to function as a complete human being, you cannot do this If you deny it.
you said to embrace horrifically violent retaliation. You said that retaliation is sacred, if it's motivated by love. You and the jihadists agree on that, I guess. That guy who shot that trick or treater dead was defending his family.
The line between killing in fear and killing in love is as thin as piss on a rock. Yes, we're engineered to ENJOY exerting power, there are evolutionary reasons for that. It's easy to rationalize that
my reasons for "gouging eyes and crushing genitals", "bashing someones head on a rock over and over again" are
good reasons, whereas the
bad guys reasons just
came from the wrong place.
I mistrust anyone that is certain they can tell the difference in themselves.
Quote from: Cramulus on March 17, 2019, 05:15:09 PM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on March 17, 2019, 03:43:12 PM
Love can beget Rage. The mass shooter does not use The Holy Rage, which exists to violently preserve life, but a fear of that which they cannot control. I sincerely think you're just squeamish Cram. You intellectualize that which has nothing to do with intellect, it is a fundamental part of you at all times. It can and must be controlled to function as a complete human being, you cannot do this If you deny it.
you said to embrace horrifically violent retaliation. You said that retaliation is sacred, if it's motivated by love. You and the jihadists agree on that, I guess. That guy who shot that trick or treater dead was defending his family.
The line between killing in fear and killing in love is as thin as piss on a rock. Yes, we're engineered to ENJOY exerting power, there are evolutionary reasons for that. It's easy to rationalize that my reasons for "gouging eyes and crushing genitals", "bashing someones head on a rock over and over again" are good reasons, whereas the bad guys reasons just came from the wrong place.
I mistrust anyone that is certain they can tell the difference in themselves.
Ok
If someone cuts me off in traffic, should I embrace my instincts, and force him off the road? Or should I follow him until he stops, and bury my hatchet in his windshield, or his forehead?
No, because that's not an effective use of my time and energy. He might be a genuine asshole, but he also might be a generally good driver who just made a rare error in judgement, and is in a hurry to go home and play with his kids. The root problem is that a bunch of semi-sentient apes somehow got access to car keys, and I'm not going to solve that by losing my calm. (That's a problem for the self-driving car people).
My immediate concern is to get my blood pressure under control, because I'm not a good driver when I'm excited.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 17, 2019, 04:23:26 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on March 17, 2019, 12:45:09 PM
Don't confuse power with holiness.
Balls. The more powerful I get, the more holy I get. This is OBSERVABLE FACT.
A little Holiness is a terrible thing. A lot of Holiness can be freaking awesome!
Quote from: chaotic neutral observer on March 17, 2019, 05:56:32 PM
If someone cuts me off in traffic, should I embrace my instincts, and force him off the road? Or should I follow him until he stops, and bury my hatchet in his windshield, or his forehead?
No, because that's not an effective use of my time and energy. He might be a genuine asshole, but he also might be a generally good driver who just made a rare error in judgement, and is in a hurry to go home and play with his kids. The root problem is that a bunch of semi-sentient apes somehow got access to car keys, and I'm not going to solve that by losing my calm. (That's a problem for the self-driving car people).
My immediate concern is to get my blood pressure under control, because I'm not a good driver when I'm excited.
You will not lose your cool or go out of control if you have embraced and befriended The Holy Rage. If someone puts everyone's life in danger by driving like an idiot, you have every right to be mad. Unleashing The Holy Rage in such circumstances would be unhelpful at best. It's not like I'm advocating being a psychotic monster all of the time, as may have been suggested ITT.
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on March 17, 2019, 06:02:28 PM
You will not lose your cool or go out of control if you have embraced and befriended The Holy Rage.
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on March 17, 2019, 01:10:59 AM
You will bite, and kick, and claw!! You will howl like a Lunatic and throw whatever comes to hand!! You will gouge eyes and crush genitals!! You will bash a head into the concrete over and over until the white meat shows!!
I find it difficult to reconcile the above two statements. I don't really see myself throwing random objects or bashing heads repeatedly
unless I'd lost control. Maybe this Holy Rage thing isn't for me.
Quote from: chaotic neutral observer on March 17, 2019, 06:40:10 PM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on March 17, 2019, 06:02:28 PM
You will not lose your cool or go out of control if you have embraced and befriended The Holy Rage.
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on March 17, 2019, 01:10:59 AM
You will bite, and kick, and claw!! You will howl like a Lunatic and throw whatever comes to hand!! You will gouge eyes and crush genitals!! You will bash a head into the concrete over and over until the white meat shows!!
I find it difficult to reconcile the above two statements. I don't really see myself throwing random objects or bashing heads repeatedly unless I'd lost control. Maybe this Holy Rage thing isn't for me.
It doesn't have to be for you. Many people would prefer to deny it entirely. I merely acknowledge that this part of us exists and embrace it.
In Vajrayana Buddhism, particularly the Tibetan strains of it, there is a concept that is important to understand: the Dharmapala.
To start off, though, it's important to understand this: In Buddhism, deities and spirits are best considered to be mental archetypes that one can make use of in their own personal journey. They're mascots, of a sort. Dakini are spirits of energy, but the important part is the imagining and anthropomorphizing of raw spiritual energy, not prayer and beseeching. They do not have independent reality beyond (sometimes) being used by many practitioners.
Dharmapalas are different. A Dharmapala is a wrathful protector of Dharma. They are both holy and terrible.
Mahakala is the best known Dharmapala, in my experience. He is an "emanation" of the Buddha Avalokitesvara, a Buddha of compassion. He loves humanity so much that he lashes out at them in terrible anger when they stray from the path of Dharma.
Mahakala wears a sash about his waist strung with 8 skulls. In one hand, he holds a bowl of intestines in a kapala, or skull cup. In another, he runs his fingers through the gore. Other hands hold a drum, a sword, a short trident, and a large sickle (not scythe). He is covered in the ashes of human cremation. Screaming jackals and vultures surround him. He is the husband of Kali. They are time, entropy, and eventually the Void itself.
This is the wrathful manifestation of the Buddha of compassion. The love that kills, the protector of the road that turns that road to forest. A Dharmapala is a TERRIBLE being.
The intended purpose of the Dharmapala is to relentlessly remove what is unskillful from a practitioner when asked to. They are a doctor amputating all the infected limbs, and they do not care how much the patient screams. That is the ideal use case.
The secret Dharmapala of the Holy Primate is different in only one respect: it only turns outwards. In Tibetan Buddhism, it has manifested as the Dharmapala Dorje Shugden. This spirit was so monstrous that the current Dalai Lama (no stranger to attempted genocide from both directions, and I encourage doubters to look up what he had his lackeys do to the Nyingma Tibetan Buddhists) outright banned Shugden invocation, worship, etc.
How odd is that?
Before this time, Dorje Shugden was considered by the Gelugpa tradition to be almost on the same level as Palden Lhamo: a protector deity of Tibet itself. He was no Buddha, they thought, but certainly his power could not be denied and he defended the Gelugpa school from the other schools.
Then the dying started.
Be very fucking careful with the Dharmapala of the Holy Primate. Dorje Shugden should not be invoked. The Ape Inside should be kept locked in a cage and unleashed only in times of immediate crisis. I myself owe it my life, and still I say to you that that power is the same power that left over 50 dead in Christchurch and the same power that locks children in cages in the USA. Be very fucking careful.
That was very interesting nullified. Thank you for sharing.
I do not suggest that you release the Holy Primate, so to speak, during anything but times of immediate and deadly crisis or under controlled and safe circumstances . It is certainly capable of being horrifically abused. That said it can also save lives. Demonizing it is a Folly equal to misuse, as I see it.
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on March 17, 2019, 06:44:25 PM
I merely acknowledge that this part of us exists and embrace it.
How do you personally embrace it? Recognizing your capacity for anger and violence is one thing. But when have you experienced Holy Rage, and what did you do with it? Other than beating up an innocent mattress, I mean.
I'm not sure what the mass-shooters do with their inner beasts, but they sure as hell didn't love them, for they wouldn't voluntarily put them in a potentially lethal survival situation otherwise. No ape ever died for their nation, that shit is humane.
Quote from: chaotic neutral observer on March 17, 2019, 07:11:40 PM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on March 17, 2019, 06:44:25 PM
I merely acknowledge that this part of us exists and embrace it.
How do you personally embrace it? Recognizing your capacity for anger and violence is one thing. But when have you experienced Holy Rage, and what did you do with it? Other than beating up an innocent mattress, I mean.
Normally I would remain silent on this but your questions deserve some form of answer.
Rather than getting into my intensely personal business on a public forum, or risking sounding like a shitlord internet tough guy, I will attempt to once again illustrate what I'm talking about by describing the events portrayed in the article that sparked this little rant in the first place.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/gunman-advanced-zealand-mosque-1-man-ran-him-092301154.html
Aziz responded to these deadly circumstances by picking up the first solid object that he could find, a credit card reader in this case, and running outside screaming like a madman in the face of a well-armed psychopath. This is not what you would call a nice, calm, rational response. It was the actions of a Mad primate intent on stopping the Killer by any means necessary. Aziz was in the grip of The Holy Rage from the moment that he first began to act.
He throws his only weapon at the gunman in an attempt to distract him, and then weaves among cars to prevent himself from being shot. He picks up an empty gun, and charges the well-armed Psychopath with it. The shooter falls back, the fear that underlies his cowardly character finally taking over. But Aziz continues to charge and throws his only weapon at the Gunman's car. And then proceeds to chase that car down the block howling like a madman the whole way I imagine.
Aziz said he didn't feel fear or much of anything really. It was like he was on "autopilot". Some people are gifted with the ability without prior training or experience. His Primal self merely emerged and acted immediately. In some sense the hand of God was on him.
I consider this part of our nature to be a gift from millions of years of natural selection, a process that knows neither Mercy nor Grace. When I say to embrace it I mean exactly that. Value it as something worth understanding, experiencing, and ultimately mastering. Do not fear it. Do not deny it. Do not make of it some Demon. Learn to love it and it will serve you Faithfully.
Quote from: Con-troll on March 17, 2019, 07:21:13 PM
I'm not sure what the mass-shooters do with their inner beasts, but they sure as hell didn't love them, for they wouldn't voluntarily put them in a potentially lethal survival situation otherwise. No ape ever died for their nation, that shit is humane.
I begin to think that you Get It Con-troll.
A mass shooter, the suicide bomber, the garden-variety racist, all these operate out of a fundamental fear. They are fundamentally cowards. The Holy Rage does not know fear. It may get you killed but that does not matter in that moment. It is action without concern for your chances.
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on March 17, 2019, 08:51:59 PM
Quote from: Con-troll on March 17, 2019, 07:21:13 PM
I'm not sure what the mass-shooters do with their inner beasts, but they sure as hell didn't love them, for they wouldn't voluntarily put them in a potentially lethal survival situation otherwise. No ape ever died for their nation, that shit is humane.
I begin to think that you Get It Con-troll.
A mass shooter, the suicide bomber, the garden-variety racist, all these operate out of a fundamental fear. They are fundamentally cowards. The Holy Rage does not know fear. It may get you killed but that does not matter in that moment. It is action without concern for your chances.
There is no difference between the two. If you release the Internal Ape from its cage when there is no reason, what will happen? All it knows is to hit and scream. It will find something to hit and scream at. The higher, "human" brain will find a way to rationalize it, as it always does. The Ape doesn't want to return to the cage. The higher brain will find a reason for it to stay out, given time or opportunity.
The fear is only the rationalization.
If you let your Ape run rampant, it becomes a menace. It needs to be kept safely put the fuck away, and called upon only when there is no other proximal, immediate option.
It's easy to think that we are somehow innately better than the fash, the terrorist, the murderer of passion — but the only difference is the choices we made. All of us carry the capacity for terrible cruelty, and that cruelty lives in both halves of us: the knuckle walking and the upright equally carry that potential.
The human side has the capacity for self reflection. It can question itself. With difficulty, it can even decide it is wrong and bad and must stop.
The Ape lacks brakes.
It is an avalanche, a derailed train traveling downhill, a breaking dam. The Ape lets go only when the human grabs it by its hairy neck and wrestles it back into its cage.
Keep it in the goddamn cage. It's not to be loved. It is indeed to be feared. It can destroy the very things you want it to protect if not tightly corralled.
It should not be wholly shunned, sure; there is the trope of enlisting a despised outcast in a time of need /for a reason/. And we must remember it's divine nature, I agree. But it's hands are only for tearing, and it's mouth is only for eating, and if you embrace it it will bite off your head and rip off your limbs.
Mahakala is holy, and Mahakala is the end of the world.
I disagree, and you are entitled to your opinion nullified. I am entitled to mine.
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on March 17, 2019, 08:45:24 PM
Normally I would remain silent on this but your questions deserve some form of answer.
Rather than getting into my intensely personal business on a public forum, or risking sounding like a shitlord internet tough guy, I will attempt to once again illustrate what I'm talking about by describing the events portrayed in the article that sparked this little rant in the first place.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/gunman-advanced-zealand-mosque-1-man-ran-him-092301154.html
Your response is just a deflection. You didn't answer my question at all. I was asking about you
personally, specifically because I wanted to know if this was just armchair philosophy, or if you had actually put any of this into practice. Because if you haven't, I can safely dismiss your ideas without further consideration.
Your example was nothing more than you projecting your preconceived ideas onto a situation about which only a preliminary report was available. I didn't see any evidence of your "Holy Rage" in that account.
Quote
or risking sounding like a shitlord internet tough guy
You're coming across that way, anyway.
Chimpanzees don't go around all day killing everything they see. They groom, climb in trees, and do other chimpanzee shit. Now, try to take one, put it in a cage, and keep it in there for years. What do you expect to happen when you go and open the door?
Animals are terribly rational in the way they do violence. They have millions of years of experience telling them, when it is a good idea to go batshit crazy on a killing spree, and when just chill. It is humans, who are capable of doing stupid, unnecessary violence, because WE put the animals into the cages, and make them grow hateful and bitter.
Nullified, I get that you are meaning that we'd cage only the rage part of the Ape, but I don't think Apes are that fond of scalpels.
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on March 17, 2019, 09:30:06 PM
I disagree, and you are entitled to your opinion nullified. I am entitled to mine.
:kingmeh:
"That's just your opinion" is one of the stupidest possible responses you can make to an argument. If you believe you're in the right, keep fighting. If you discover you're wrong, admit defeat, and learn something.
Quote from: Con-troll on March 17, 2019, 10:04:11 PM
Chimpanzees don't go around all day killing everything they see. They groom, climb in trees, and do other chimpanzee shit.
Wild chimpanzees will organize attacks on other groups of chimps, kill them, and even cannibalize them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=al-f_WWoHI4
Quote
It is humans, who are capable of doing stupid, unnecessary violence, because WE put the animals into the cages, and make them grow hateful and bitter.
Nullified, I get that you are meaning that we'd cage only the rage part of the Ape, but I don't think Apes are that fond of scalpels.
You seem to think that there's some sort of distinct entity inside you, which is angry from being imprisoned. This is a false extension of the analogy. You have multiple internal motivating forces, but there is only one
you. Some of your motivating forces should not be given free play. Refusing to give them free play does not make some "inner beast" angrier than it would be otherwise.
Quote from: Con-troll on March 17, 2019, 10:04:11 PM
Chimpanzees don't go around all day killing everything they see. They groom, climb in trees, and do other chimpanzee shit. Now, try to take one, put it in a cage, and keep it in there for years. What do you expect to happen when you go and open the door?
Animals are terribly rational in the way they do violence. They have millions of years of experience telling them, when it is a good idea to go batshit crazy on a killing spree, and when just chill. It is humans, who are capable of doing stupid, unnecessary violence, because WE put the animals into the cages, and make them grow hateful and bitter.
Nullified, I get that you are meaning that we'd cage only the rage part of the Ape, but I don't think Apes are that fond of scalpels.
We can replace most of the other things the Ape can offer. That's literally what makes the upright part of the brain special: it can see a problem and probably find a solution, if it's simple enough. The Ape is a simple tool for simple issues.
Cage the whole damn thing. Let it out to play when necessary, and no other time. You could make an argument against animal cruelty, but I don't think most of the sane animal rights groups are worried about protecting metaphorical animals, and I certainly don't care too much about that thing squatting in the back of Plato's cave, gnawing bones and howling at echoes. It deserves what it gets.
Quote from: nullified on March 17, 2019, 09:18:26 PM
It's easy to think that we are somehow innately better than the fash, the terrorist, the murderer of passion — but the only difference is the choices we made. All of us carry the capacity for terrible cruelty, and that cruelty lives in both halves of us: the knuckle walking and the upright equally carry that potential.
If I had been born in 1915, in Germany, might I have become an actual Nazi? Is there anything innate about me as a person that would prevent this? This question bothers me occasionally. I know people who would have died first; I know people who, I think, would have worn the swastika with pride. But I can't answer this question about myself. Intelligence wouldn't prevent it; that often just leads to more convoluted rationalizations. How much of my morality is learned, and how much is inherent?
Maybe it's better not to ask these questions. Leave the ape in its cage, and throw it some fresh fruit now and then, to keep it from rattling the bars too much. It's enough to know that it can't be trusted, without worrying too much about
how much it can't be trusted.
Quote from: chaotic neutral observer on March 17, 2019, 09:52:01 PM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on March 17, 2019, 08:45:24 PM
Normally I would remain silent on this but your questions deserve some form of answer.
Rather than getting into my intensely personal business on a public forum, or risking sounding like a shitlord internet tough guy, I will attempt to once again illustrate what I'm talking about by describing the events portrayed in the article that sparked this little rant in the first place.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/gunman-advanced-zealand-mosque-1-man-ran-him-092301154.html
Your response is just a deflection. You didn't answer my question at all. I was asking about you personally, specifically because I wanted to know if this was just armchair philosophy, or if you had actually put any of this into practice. Because if you haven't, I can safely dismiss your ideas without further consideration.
Your example was nothing more than you projecting your preconceived ideas onto a situation about which only a preliminary report was available. I didn't see any evidence of your "Holy Rage" in that account.
Quote
or risking sounding like a shitlord internet tough guy
You're comng across that way, anyway.
:lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
Perhaps you should just have an argument with yourself then. I don't owe you a response. I'm content to let you think whatever you want of me. I've put it into practice many times. That's all I've got to say on the matter.
I both agree and disagree with everyone. :evil: :fnord:
nullified describes the problem very succinctly, and has found his own solution.
But I think he and Joseph are cross-talking slightly. My silat style trains the old animal forms, so I let the monkey out when alone to train with it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pu2DkCZiAEA
Let us shift metaphors to one my teacher uses.
nullified is talking about the tiger, who needs no other reason to kill you than you are on his forest trail. It cares not that you are armed or what you are holding or doing and intends to knock your distracted ass down and kill you and consume what it wants of you.
Joseph is talking about the tigress, cornered in the bamboo grove with cubs behind her. She cares not what you are armed with but she will die before letting you get past her to the little ones.
That is why Shiva/Bacchus/Hanuman always has to learn the secrets of the universe from Kali/Eris(Rhea)/Guanyin before he can tackle the chaos of his previous bungling.
Quote from: chaotic neutral observer on March 17, 2019, 10:04:49 PM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on March 17, 2019, 09:30:06 PM
I disagree, and you are entitled to your opinion nullified. I am entitled to mine.
:kingmeh:
"That's just your opinion" is one of the stupidest possible responses you can make to an argument. If you believe you're in the right, keep fighting. If you discover you're wrong, admit defeat, and learn something.
:lulz: :lulz:
:kingmeh: It actually is a matter of opinion though. And I don't oh a fight to anybody on this forum or in my life.
Quote from: Telarus on March 17, 2019, 10:38:43 PM
I both agree and disagree with everyone. :evil: :fnord:
nullified describes the problem very succinctly, and has found his own solution.
But I think he and Joseph as cross-talking slightly. My silat style trains the old animal forms, so I let the monkey out when alone to train with it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pu2DkCZiAEA
Let us shift metaphors to one my teacher uses.
nullified is talking about the tiger, who needs no other reason to kill you than you are on his forest trail. It cares not that you are armed or what you are holding or doing and intends to knock your distracted ass down and kill you and consume what it wants of you.
Joseph is talking about the tigress, cornered in the bamboo grove with cubs behind her. She cares not what you are armed with but she will die before letting you get past her to the little ones.
That is why Shiva/Bacchus/Hanuman always has to learn the secrets of the universe from Kali/Eris(Rhea)/Guanyin before he can tackle the chaos of his previous bungling.
This concept of the tiger and The Tigress is very fascinating to me. The concept of having no fear of a weapon is definitely part of what I'm getting at.
Quote from: chaotic neutral observer on March 17, 2019, 10:32:46 PM
Quote from: nullified on March 17, 2019, 09:18:26 PM
It's easy to think that we are somehow innately better than the fash, the terrorist, the murderer of passion — but the only difference is the choices we made. All of us carry the capacity for terrible cruelty, and that cruelty lives in both halves of us: the knuckle walking and the upright equally carry that potential.
If I had been born in 1915, in Germany, might I have become an actual Nazi? Is there anything innate about me as a person that would prevent this? This question bothers me occasionally. I know people who would have died first; I know people who, I think, would have worn the swastika with pride. But I can't answer this question about myself. Intelligence wouldn't prevent it; that often just leads to more convoluted rationalizations. How much of my morality is learned, and how much is inherent?
Maybe it's better not to ask these questions. Leave the ape in its cage, and throw it some fresh fruit now and then, to keep it from rattling the bars too much. It's enough to know that it can't be trusted, without worrying too much about how much it can't be trusted.
I almost DID become a neo-Nazi. I was an edgy kid who equated psychopathy with coolness, and I was a member of online extreme metal communities. I found a single logical flaw in the (otherwise appealing to my edgy stupid nature) belief system I was considering, and my stupid brain threw out the whole thing. For the wrong reasons, of course, as I learned much later, because I was still an edgy little garbage pile, but I rejected it nevertheless.
You never know the answer to that question until you are faced with it. If you do end up on the right side, it might not even be for good reasons. All of it is rationalization, and rationalization is a necessary survival trait we cannot afford to turn off. Rationalization is most often a subconscious act we can't examine the processes of until it is too late.
Best not to take risks, I agree.
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on March 17, 2019, 10:35:31 PM
I'm content to let you think whatever you want of me. I've put it into practice many times. That's all I've got to say on the matter.
:internettoughguy:
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on March 17, 2019, 10:39:11 PM
Quote from: chaotic neutral observer on March 17, 2019, 10:04:49 PM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on March 17, 2019, 09:30:06 PM
I disagree, and you are entitled to your opinion nullified. I am entitled to mine.
:kingmeh:
"That's just your opinion" is one of the stupidest possible responses you can make to an argument. If you believe you're in the right, keep fighting. If you discover you're wrong, admit defeat, and learn something.
:lulz: :lulz:
:kingmeh: It actually is a matter of opinion though. And I don't oh a fight to anybody on this forum or in my life.
No, you don't owe anyone a fight, although it might be nice to see some of your "Holy Rage" in action.
But even if it were just a matter of opinion, replying to a well-thought post with "you are entitled to your opinion" is a pathetic cop-out. Better to clarify your ideas, or even not respond at all.
Quote from: chaotic neutral observer on March 17, 2019, 10:16:22 PM
You seem to think that there's some sort of distinct entity inside you, which is angry from being imprisoned. This is a false extension of the analogy. You have multiple internal motivating forces, but there is only one you. Some of your motivating forces should not be given free play. Refusing to give them free play does not make some "inner beast" angrier than it would be otherwise.
I was thinking about the duality between the part of us which is still just another one of the great apes and what makes us human. The difference seems to be a bit of brain, complex enough vocal cords, and tons of culture stacked on top. You know the sort of culture which from the beginning has worked to
suppress most of the stuff the Ape likes to do. Yeah, violence, but also things like sex, caring for people, and eating. Suppressed are also things more unique to the humans but not unprecedented in animals. Hell, soon an ability to shit will be a commodified luxury.
That makes lots of humans unhappy. They are forced to put 99% of themselves in a cage to be "civilized" and can't even burst out in a violent rage to blow steam, like every rational animal would tend to do when spred so thin, because of the dire concequenses the society would impose on you.
What I'm getting at is that the animal part,
the instinct, shouldn't be blamed for horrific acts humans commit. The Ape isn't capable of connecting a group of people to a terrorist attack that happened on the other side of the globe, when none of the participants were present, and decide it's a logical act to shoot them. No, that is a human mind extrapolating from data that has been fed to them. That's just human, nothing holy or primal in that.
Quote from: chaotic neutral observer on March 17, 2019, 10:45:04 PM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on March 17, 2019, 10:35:31 PM
I'm content to let you think whatever you want of me. I've put it into practice many times. That's all I've got to say on the matter.
:internettoughguy:
:lulz:
Watch out we've got a stale and overworked meme over here!
I'm so hurt. :lulz: :lulz:
Quote from: chaotic neutral observer on March 17, 2019, 11:01:32 PM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on March 17, 2019, 10:39:11 PM
Quote from: chaotic neutral observer on March 17, 2019, 10:04:49 PM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on March 17, 2019, 09:30:06 PM
I disagree, and you are entitled to your opinion nullified. I am entitled to mine.
:kingmeh:
"That's just your opinion" is one of the stupidest possible responses you can make to an argument. If you believe you're in the right, keep fighting. If you discover you're wrong, admit defeat, and learn something.
:lulz: :lulz:
:kingmeh: It actually is a matter of opinion though. And I don't oh a fight to anybody on this forum or in my life.
No, you don't owe anyone a fight, although it might be nice to see some of your "Holy Rage" in action.
But even if it were just a matter of opinion, replying to a well-thought post with "you are entitled to your opinion" is a pathetic cop-out. Better to clarify your ideas, or even not respond at all.
How exactly would you like to see the holy rage in action on an internet forum?
Alas I am overwhelmed by your trolling! You have defeated me!
:lulz: :lulz:
Quote from: chaotic neutral observer on March 17, 2019, 07:11:40 PM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on March 17, 2019, 06:44:25 PM
I merely acknowledge that this part of us exists and embrace it.
How do you personally embrace it? Recognizing your capacity for anger and violence is one thing. But when have you experienced Holy Rage, and what did you do with it? Other than beating up an innocent mattress, I mean.
Why on Earth are you giving someone a ration of shit for a bit of rage?
I would think the subforum's name might indicate that this is where we generate & store rage.
Quote from: chaotic neutral observer on March 17, 2019, 06:40:10 PM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on March 17, 2019, 06:02:28 PM
You will not lose your cool or go out of control if you have embraced and befriended The Holy Rage.
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on March 17, 2019, 01:10:59 AM
You will bite, and kick, and claw!! You will howl like a Lunatic and throw whatever comes to hand!! You will gouge eyes and crush genitals!! You will bash a head into the concrete over and over until the white meat shows!!
I find it difficult to reconcile the above two statements. I don't really see myself throwing random objects or bashing heads repeatedly unless I'd lost control. Maybe this Holy Rage thing isn't for me.
If you have never hurled a dead javalina into the neighbor's yard, I feel for you son
I got 99 problems but impulse control ain't one.
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on March 18, 2019, 01:06:49 AM
How exactly would you like to see the holy rage in action on an internet forum?
Surprise me.
Quote
Alas I am overwhelmed by your trolling! You have defeated me!
:lulz: :lulz:
Well, that was anti-climactic.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 18, 2019, 01:34:54 AM
Quote from: chaotic neutral observer on March 17, 2019, 07:11:40 PM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on March 17, 2019, 06:44:25 PM
I merely acknowledge that this part of us exists and embrace it.
How do you personally embrace it? Recognizing your capacity for anger and violence is one thing. But when have you experienced Holy Rage, and what did you do with it? Other than beating up an innocent mattress, I mean.
Why on Earth are you giving someone a ration of shit for a bit of rage?
I would think the subforum's name might indicate that this is where we generate & store rage.
I want to get a better understanding of the practical applications of this particular type of rage, with concrete examples. So far, no satisfactory examples have been presented.
Also, the weather's improving, my blood is up, and I felt like picking a fight. Once The Wizard stops replying to me, I'll probably get bored, and start scribbling some half-thought-out ideas in Apple Talk, or something.
Quote from: Telarus on March 17, 2019, 10:38:43 PM
nullified describes the problem very succinctly, and has found his own solution.
She.
Just to be clear, I think Joseph is a great guy. Please read this with a tone of sympathetic concern.
To state plainly what concerned me about the OP: it glorified horrific violence, and said that the 'self who is curbstomping somebody to death' is the "true self", and should be embraced --- but there was no talk about finding the right target, or being discerning in how/when you use that rage. It reccommended visualizing somebody that upset me as I go apeshit on a mattress with a baseball bat.
Joseph didn't say "imagine beating up a nazi", he said "imagine beating up somebody that upset you."
And that's a really dark thought. Because a lot of people have made me angry, and I've definitely had the impulse to slash their tires. Inside me, the animal parts want their blood. It would have made me feel euphoric. But when I've calmed down, I know that rage was not the correct tool.
I grimace at the suggestion that it would have been "holy" to go ruin my enemies day in some way. The way it's stated in the OP, I can't distinguish that suggestion from advice that horrible people give in to every single day. I really don't want to live in a world where everybody behaves like that. Personally, I'm proud of myself for moderating the beast, not giving in, not slashing those tires. I acted correctly, despite a loud voice inside me saying WAR WAR WAR.
That's what I was saying about the 'true self' not being the animal inside of us, but the human who can master those animalistic parts of us, reconcile them with the whole being. The animal is one of the selves. Sometimes you've gotta let it lead, but a lot of the time you have to tell it "time out".
This is different than denying the animal completely. The example Joseph gave, of the victim lashing out against attackers, is an example of rage applied in a survival moment. It's the right tool for that specific situation. In that situation, you don't have to worry about misapplying rage--your life is literally in jeopardy, and in that context, there is only black and white. The animal behaves correctly there, because it only sees in black and white.
I don't trust myself to only use rage correctly--therefore I can't trust others with it. My attitude towards my own rage is caution. To embrace it inevitably means hurting others, as well as myself.
Quote from: Cramulus on March 18, 2019, 12:46:25 PM
Just to be clear, I think Joseph is a great guy. Please read this with a tone of sympathetic concern.
To state plainly what concerned me about the OP: it glorified horrific violence, and said that the 'self who is curbstomping somebody to death' is the "true self", and should be embraced --- but there was no talk about finding the right target, or being discerning in how/when you use that rage. It reccommended visualizing somebody that upset me as I go apeshit on a mattress with a baseball bat.
Joseph didn't say "imagine beating up a nazi", he said "imagine beating up somebody that upset you."
And that's a really dark thought. Because a lot of people have made me angry, and I've definitely had the impulse to slash their tires. Inside me, the animal parts want their blood. It would have made me feel euphoric. But when I've calmed down, I know that rage was not the correct tool.
I grimace at the suggestion that it would have been "holy" to go ruin my enemies day in some way. The way it's stated in the OP, I can't distinguish that suggestion from advice that horrible people give in to every single day. I really don't want to live in a world where everybody behaves like that. Personally, I'm proud of myself for moderating the beast, not giving in, not slashing those tires. I acted correctly, despite a loud voice inside me saying WAR WAR WAR.
That's what I was saying about the 'true self' not being the animal inside of us, but the human who can master those animalistic parts of us, reconcile them with the whole being. The animal is one of the selves. Sometimes you've gotta let it lead, but a lot of the time you have to tell it "time out".
This is different than denying the animal completely. The example Joseph gave, of the victim lashing out against attackers, is an example of rage applied in a survival moment. It's the right tool for that specific situation. In that situation, you don't have to worry about misapplying rage--your life is literally in jeopardy, and in that context, there is only black and white. The animal behaves correctly there, because it only sees in black and white.
I don't trust myself to only use rage correctly--therefore I can't trust others with it. My attitude towards my own rage is caution. To embrace it inevitably means hurting others, as well as myself.
Exactly all of this.
OP came out how it came out. I understand your concerns, but it was a rant not an ethical treatise.
Tell you what I'll do a write-up on what I think the ethics of letting out The Holy Rage are when I get a chance later.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 18, 2019, 01:34:54 AM
Quote from: chaotic neutral observer on March 17, 2019, 07:11:40 PM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on March 17, 2019, 06:44:25 PM
I merely acknowledge that this part of us exists and embrace it.
How do you personally embrace it? Recognizing your capacity for anger and violence is one thing. But when have you experienced Holy Rage, and what did you do with it? Other than beating up an innocent mattress, I mean.
Why on Earth are you giving someone a ration of shit for a bit of rage?
I would think the subforum's name might indicate that this is where we generate & store rage.
That's what I thought
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on March 18, 2019, 05:13:30 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 18, 2019, 01:34:54 AM
Quote from: chaotic neutral observer on March 17, 2019, 07:11:40 PM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on March 17, 2019, 06:44:25 PM
I merely acknowledge that this part of us exists and embrace it.
How do you personally embrace it? Recognizing your capacity for anger and violence is one thing. But when have you experienced Holy Rage, and what did you do with it? Other than beating up an innocent mattress, I mean.
Why on Earth are you giving someone a ration of shit for a bit of rage?
I would think the subforum's name might indicate that this is where we generate & store rage.
That's what I thought
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the War Room!"
But if you don't care for my comments and criticisms (which in this case, crossed well into flame territory) I will refrain from replying to your posts or threads. You need only ask. I like to spar, but it's better if the other side is getting something out of it.
This wouldn't apply, of course, to posts you make in my threads, or which are directed at me. Armistice, not disarmament.
Quote from: chaotic neutral observer on March 18, 2019, 06:37:46 PM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on March 18, 2019, 05:13:30 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 18, 2019, 01:34:54 AM
Quote from: chaotic neutral observer on March 17, 2019, 07:11:40 PM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on March 17, 2019, 06:44:25 PM
I merely acknowledge that this part of us exists and embrace it.
How do you personally embrace it? Recognizing your capacity for anger and violence is one thing. But when have you experienced Holy Rage, and what did you do with it? Other than beating up an innocent mattress, I mean.
Why on Earth are you giving someone a ration of shit for a bit of rage?
I would think the subforum's name might indicate that this is where we generate & store rage.
That's what I thought
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the War Room!"
But if you don't care for my comments and criticisms (which in this case, crossed well into flame territory) I will refrain from replying to your posts or threads. You need only ask. I like to spar, but it's better if the other side is getting something out of it.
This wouldn't apply, of course, to posts you make in my threads, or which are directed at me. Armistice, not disarmament.
:kingmeh:
This reads like "Waah! I didn't get the reaction I wanted for my mediocre trolling so I'm not going to do it anymore... If you don't want me to. You do don't want me to don't you?"
Bruh at no point did I tell you to fuck off. There was a time fairly long ago now before I learned how to comport myself on this forum, or any forum this is my only one, and I used to reply to Howl's work with zany write-ups of no meaningful value. At one point he directly told me to fuck off. I even got my very own unlimited thread. I wasn't even trying to be a troll as I didn't understand what that was at the time, I was just crazy. I took him at his word and stop posting on his threads. Eventually I got my head out of my ass. Now I count him among my friends and treat them with respect.
What I'm getting at is that your stuff doesn't really rate me telling you not to post on my threads. That was pretty weak sauce tbh.
I've been following the entire thread. I did not get the impression anyone was trolling you, TWJ.
Quote from: Hoopla! on March 19, 2019, 12:32:36 AM
I've been following the entire thread. I did not get the impression anyone was trolling you, TWJ.
I'm under the impression that CNO was looking for a reaction. When that reaction didn't materialize CNO went with "well I guess I won't post on your threads if you don't want me to" when I didn't play the tough guy to the taunting.
A lot of people posted quite legitimate concerns. These I will address when I get a chance.
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on March 18, 2019, 11:54:31 PM
:kingmeh:
This reads like "Waah! I didn't get the reaction I wanted for my mediocre trolling so I'm not going to do it anymore... If you don't want me to. You do don't want me to don't you?"
I started out participating in this thread in good faith; I only started poking at you when you began to dodge contrary viewpoints. Not just mine; Cramulus and nullified have made better points than I have, which I think deserve to be directly addressed. Maybe you will get around to it? But I think you'll just repeat your position. I'm not seeing any signs of introspection, self-criticism, or consideration of the possibility that what you're saying might be anything less than the truth. You're spending too much time on my lukewarm flaming, and not enough on hammering out your own thoughts.
Quote
Bruh at no point did I tell you to fuck off. There was a time fairly long ago now before I learned how to comport myself on this forum, or any forum this is my only one, and I used to reply to Howl's work with zany write-ups of no meaningful value. At one point he directly told me to fuck off. I even got my very own unlimited thread. I wasn't even trying to be a troll as I didn't understand what that was at the time, I was just crazy. I took him at his word and stop posting on his threads. Eventually I got my head out of my ass. Now I count him among my friends and treat them with respect.
What I'm getting at is that your stuff doesn't really rate me telling you not to post on my threads. That was pretty weak sauce tbh.
Now
there's a smidge of the Holy Rage I wanted to see.
Honestly, I was starting to feel a little uncomfortable about my comportment in this thread, and your comment "That's what I thought", made me wonder if I was crossing a line. Being poorly socialized, I sometimes have difficulty reading the room. But since you seem okay with it, I guess I was worried for nothing. I withdraw the offer.
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on March 19, 2019, 12:49:38 AM
I'm under the impression that CNO was looking for a reaction.
What I want is to see the expression on your face when you look at yourself in the mirror.
Speaking as someone who has only followed TWJ as a passive reader for most of her time on the forum, your viewpoint of him is wholly contrary to my direct experience.
He has been one of the /more/ introspective and level-headed individuals here. He moves slowly but deliberately when he changes his mind. He gives every word the time it deserves, treating rants and outbursts as a kind of poetry to deconstruct and look at the components of for fullest understanding, from what I've seen. He's also made a big journey in his time here, from lame mystically flavored shitposter to one of the more valuable contributors.
You aren't really giving him a fair shake, CNO.
Quote from: nullified on March 19, 2019, 01:19:20 AM
Speaking as someone who has only followed TWJ as a passive reader for most of her time on the forum, your viewpoint of him is wholly contrary to my direct experience.
He has been one of the /more/ introspective and level-headed individuals here. He moves slowly but deliberately when he changes his mind. He gives every word the time it deserves, treating rants and outbursts as a kind of poetry to deconstruct and look at the components of for fullest understanding, from what I've seen. He's also made a big journey in his time here, from lame mystically flavored shitposter to one of the more valuable contributors.
You aren't really giving him a fair shake, CNO.
Well, my initial impression of
you was entirely wrong (and I think I owe you an apology), so I can hardly claim infallibility. But since I haven't been here all that long, I don't share your perspective of TWJ.
If he lives up to your description, then I shall eat my words.
I feel like the OP is coming from a similar place as Three Strengths and Love Your Ugly, but it did rub me the wrong way too. I don't know that I'd go as far with my criticism as some other folks in this thread, but it's definitely just a little off.
I got you this
(https://i.imgur.com/9HKgHLv.png)
I get the general thrust of TWJs point, and even would say I agree with the direction.
Don't deny this beast is in you. Don't refuse it when it's your life on the line. Remember it is holy, it has the blood of gods in its veins, and it is (whether you like it or not), part of being a Human Being. You can't walk properly upright if you don't recognize the massive Sasquatch jumping on your shoulders, baying for blood and death.
But ... what Cram's post said is why I /fear/ that beast, for the same reason that reverence of Shiva for most Shaivite Hindus includes trying your damnedest not to wake him up.
I don't know a single person who has never encountered momentary minor frustration with someone and immediately wanted to flatten them with a rock. It's in our bones, and while I don't know for sure (as I keep that shit on a tight leash), it seems to me like it's far too easy for someone to give into that thought.
The intrusive, boundless inner ape rage is holy, useful, intrinsically part of us, and /terrifying/. I respect it like I respect a loaded gun, a bear in the backyard, a flash flood. I respect it and hope to fuck it never turns my way.
So my problem isn't the direction, it's the distance. I cannot love or embrace something that reacts to every minor mishap by wanting to obliterate face. I can respect it, but I cannot forget its capabilities, and that it has no control and will not stop for love, but only if made to. That's specifically the issue I have with it.
I think the issue might be that a lot of people seem to have been giving in to rage in recent years, to our detriment as a society. I don't know that it's really an aspect of ourselves that we are not already intimately acquainted with.
That's my take, anyway.
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on March 20, 2019, 04:36:57 AM
I feel like the OP is coming from a similar place as Three Strengths and Love Your Ugly, but it did rub me the wrong way too. I don't know that I'd go as far with my criticism as some other folks in this thread, but it's definitely just a little off.
I got you this
(https://i.imgur.com/9HKgHLv.png)
I love it thank you. I think I'll use it as a Facebook background for a while.
A piece at a time I'm going to reread the entire thread and attempt to put together a more scholarly and thoughtful reply to what people have posted. This will take me awhile as I'm a slow mo.
I thank you all for your replies they are thoughtful and to the point. Don't think that just because I didn't reply to something immediately I'm being dismissive. I respect everybody who's posted to this thread and thank you for your thoughts, even CNO was clearly quite, quite intelligent.
Nullified is quite correct that I'm slow and deliberate by Nature. I will seek to give proper scholarship to the thought in this next part of the write-up.
Edit to add that in the passion of the rant I may have overstated or Miss stated some things.
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on March 20, 2019, 02:30:11 PM
A piece at a time I'm going to reread the entire thread and attempt to put together a more scholarly and thoughtful reply to what people have posted. This will take me awhile as I'm a slow mo.
I thank you all for your replies they are thoughtful and to the point. Don't think that just because I didn't reply to something immediately I'm being dismissive. I respect everybody who's posted to this thread and thank you for your thoughts, even CNO was clearly quite, quite intelligent.
Nullified is quite correct that I'm slow and deliberate by Nature. I will seek to give proper scholarship to the thought in this next part of the write-up.
Edit to add that in the passion of the rant I may have overstated or Miss stated some things.
Getting carried away now and again is important.
Quote from: chaotic neutral observer on March 19, 2019, 01:09:56 AM
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on March 19, 2019, 12:49:38 AM
I'm under the impression that CNO was looking for a reaction.
What I want is to see the expression on your face when you look at yourself in the mirror.
I've been chewing on this thread off and on for days now. Trying to formulate how to reply without just repeating myself. My word processing ability is also quite limited as I'm using a cell phone. Still working on it. In the meantime I can answer this.
Personally, I think Cramulus said it best and summed up what everyone else was saying. I have a habit of saying the same thing in a ton of different ways in case one of them breaks through and makes an impact, it was all just restatement (and in two cases maybe pre-statement?) of his post though.
From the specific posts by others I have read (and I just reread to be sure) I didn't see any particular questions that addressing Cram's post in detail wouldn't answer. If there are some I somehow missed, I think it's only fair they get asked again after you address the heart of the matter.
After all, it's the problem at the core of the thread's less than favorable reaction, and it might save you some valuable writing time and repetitive strain injury to only worry about having one giant post to reply to at a time.
ETA: So it's clear, I meant Cram's LAST big post, that I quoted to agree with wholesale. Forgive me, I'm in bed heading to sleep right now.
Quote from: nullified on March 29, 2019, 01:21:24 AM
Personally, I think Cramulus said it best and summed up what everyone else was saying. I have a habit of saying the same thing in a ton of different ways in case one of them breaks through and makes an impact, it was all just restatement (and in two cases maybe pre-statement?) of his post though.
From the specific posts by others I have read (and I just reread to be sure) I didn't see any particular questions that addressing Cram's post in detail wouldn't answer. If there are some I somehow missed, I think it's only fair they get asked again after you address the heart of the matter.
After all, it's the problem at the core of the thread's less than favorable reaction, and it might save you some valuable writing time and repetitive strain injury to only worry about having one giant post to reply to at a time.
ETA: So it's clear, I meant Cram's LAST big post, that I quoted to agree with wholesale. Forgive me, I'm in bed heading to sleep right now.
I just finished writing my response and will post it next. Much of it is a reply to some of Cram's concerns.
Just good as I can do anyway. I too must go to bed after this.
I'm not really sure where to begin with this. I think I will begin by discussing the concept of the true self, which I claim the holy rage represents in the rant.
One might see the true self as a tree. Upwards among the higher Realms of Consciousness you have branches, foliage, light, and fruit. Cram's concept of the true self seems to dwell here and seek an ever higher vantage point. This is only a part of the true self, the pleasant and productive one.
The part of the true self that I described in this Rant is a part of the roots. They are hidden and ugly. They feed on the most decayed parts of the world and are the most earthy. One might call the trunk between them the ego holding everything together, but I do not want to take this metaphor too far.
The essential point is that one cannot live without the other. They cannot be complete in and of themselves. To truly function together the ego must have a connection to both. The stronger the connection to the roots the greater the foliage and fruit. In turn the upper branches give purpose and Light. The connection to both of these must be strong for the self to grow properly.
The vast majority of the root is hidden in the subconscious and unconscious minds. It is the most Primal and basic of instincts. The entire point of the mattress exercise is to acquaint one with this Primal fully raging self in safety without hurting anyone.
This is why I said think of something, not someone, that has angered and hurt you. I realize that for many that will be a person or type of people anyway. It is possible that this shortcut to tapping into the Primal self is not the most healthy method, but it was what came to mind in the rant. I'm sure there are Marshal forms of meditation that can do this more effectively, but those are not fast and easy and to the point enough for a rant.
There is no doubt that the holy rage is profoundly dangerous, like a loaded gun, as nullified said. I do attest that it can also be a rip-roaring good time if the unleashing is done in a safe manner.
There is in my opinion nothing wrong with enjoying your Primal self. In point of fact I struggled with it during my younger life. I misused it. I will not deny this. Then one day I discovered that sex could be a fine outlet for it. I will not go on at length about this, but the holy primate can definitely be satisfied and even nourished by such activities. This is also Holy, but it's not the Rage which I described in the rant. It's merely a different pathway for the same energy, a different set of roots if you will.
I must also clarify my terms. There is to my mind a difference between retaliation and revenge. The essence of the difference is that revenge is premeditated, while retaliation is a response to something happening in the moment, the Sacred Now.
Your sense of Now is never closer than when your life is in danger. I have had many close brushes with death in my life and know it well. It has nothing to do with plotting or planning as do most forms of Revenge and violence. It is only in this Sacred Right Fucking Now that The Holy Rage can be properly expressed.
And so this excludes retaliation, as I Define it, from such things as slashing tires, responding to an insult with violence, planning and executing a mass murder, or any number of other things that have been brought up ITT. I hope that I have adequately clarified my meaning here.
Lastly I would like to discuss why I call it Holy. In this state the conscious mind loses much of its sense of duality.
There is no right or wrong.
There is only action.
There is no up or down, left or right.
There is only motion.
There is no life or death.
There is only struggle.
There is no fear or courage.
There is only will.
There is no bar stool or conglomeration of atoms.
There is only the flight and impact.
Duality tends to become obliterated at the extremes of consciousness. This is Holy and it happens both at the top of the tree and the bottom, but very different in character.
I will not budge on my assertion that The Holy Rage should be embraced and not feared or shunned. This may mean that some folks disagree with me.
That is okay.
But I wholeheartedly agree that caution approaching such a powerful thing is necessary. I just think that it is profoundly unhealthy to keep it as an enemy, kept "in a cage" and would rather see folks learn of it in the only way that they really can, by direct and raw experience.
But I do not recommend either that you leave it Unleashed at all times. This makes you a naked blade without a Scabbard.
I do hope that some of this is makes sense to you folks and has clarified what I'm talking about.
Best I can do anyway.
So it's clear, I always understood what you meant by it's holiness and being part of us. These are things that are, for me, undeniably true and I never questioned. So I hope you won't mind too much if I say nothing about that part.
This, on the other hand, deserves more attention, because I think you missed a spot.
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on March 29, 2019, 02:16:27 AM
Lastly I would like to discuss why I call it Holy. In this state the conscious mind loses much of its sense of duality.
There is no right or wrong.
There is only action.
There is no up or down, left or right.
There is only motion.
There is no life or death.
There is only struggle.
There is no fear or courage.
There is only will.
There is no bar stool or conglomeration of atoms.
There is only the flight and impact.
Duality tends to become obliterated at the extremes of consciousness. This is Holy and it happens both at the top of the tree and the bottom, but very different in character.
You are absolutely right about it happening at the top and the bottom. But it also happens in the middle.
Any total fucking nerd like me who has spent enough time with video games that offer a lot of control and a very quick punishment for mistakes can attest to a similar sensation at the peak of their performance: I find it easiest to cultivate in the so-called "Soulsborne" games, but I've experienced it in QuakeWorld, Hawken, Insurgency, Ghost Recon: Phantoms, and Armored Core as well. A mindstate where perception and reaction are obliterated and there is only the eternal now, a moment to moment perfect intense awareness of your focal point. You charge headlong into a room not knowing what is on the other side and you cannot be stopped.
Similarly, hard physical labor can create a similar trance state, where the muscular complaints disappear and the nervous system time lag ceases to exist. You aren't there. There is only dirt flying from the top of a shovel, or the clouds of sawdust hanging in the air. Everything is a perfect frozen slideshow of endless moments of complete awareness, like someone singlestepping through the execution of a program while debugging.
Athletes and runners know this state too. Mistakes are not even possible. You cannot mess up, it is a physical impossibility, no obstacle exists. You can't land wrong, you know your environment with utter perfection. The other two I know first hand, but I admit this one is entirely based on the anecdotes of others... and, interestingly, scientific data that the rest is actually not backed up by (yet, that is: it just hasn't been studied AFAIK).
I consider these to be at neither end of the tree. What you describe as the top is more in line with meditation. And at the bottom, I lose awareness of everything and "wake up" (metaphorically — it's more like sensory systems come back online) bruised and battered later on, which doesn't feel much like what you describe above at all.
The video game example is the best example of what makes these so separate from the "top" and "bottom" both, while still describing the same phenomenon.
When you are in these states in a video game, you are not particularly in an angry mood. You aren't using much physical energy, usually — despite the utter chaos of your avatar's actions, you are usually unconsciously economizing motion, doing the bare minimum necessary to continue. On the other hand, you aren't doing what is required for meditation: you are aware of your surroundings, and in fact actively interacting with part of them. I have accepted food and drink in this flow state without breaking it, which neither of the extremes would be truly capable of.
My contention is that the state described is not specific to extremes. It is not specific to anything but a heightened awareness and a momentary consciousness (as in consciousness of moments). Any state that can access this, usually with economy of thought processing and a lot of moment-to-moment variables, can open the door into this mental place.
Having experienced the meditative form, I would further contend that only the Beast is truly different in character. In these others, the static slideshow nature of reality, awareness of perfect moments, lack of strong emotional content are the key, defining features. Aside from the emotion, this seems to describe what you are talking about.
But as I've stated, all I get is lost time and the aftermath, so perhaps I simply haven't "truly" been there (note: I'd be wary of No True Scotsmen if you wish to say that).
Finally, a point I do feel like you missed is that of rationalization, where the ape runs the zoo so to speak. I firmly believe that we can get in an "inverted aspect" where our executive functions are under the control of the monkey brain and the sapient mind is simply providing ad-hoc justification for what King Ape wants to do.
Now, having the two fighting for control isn't a problem per se (we all have those moments where we have to master that monster before all hell breaks loose), but I do strongly feel that letting it go unchecked can only lead to terrible things. In my view, a killer is driven by the Ape, with the rest of them just trying to support the house of cards it's madly dancing on.
This shouldn't be mistaken for a simple lack of impulse control, this is a strongly pathological state where impulses hijack self-awareness and use it's machinery to give themselves a stamp of approval before you ever even see the packaging. It's the counterfeit drug that winds up on the shelf at CVS, you don't even get a chance to make an informed decision until you're lying on your back hoping someone calls an ambulance before you black out. This is the state I worry about when I read the OP.
Finally, to be perfectly clear, I'll summarize using your terms: in my view, awareness of it rather than outright denial, and recognition of its utility and power rather than outright rejection, these are that all-important connection you're talking about. But a tree uprooted and planted back in the soil upside down will die very quickly, it's roots greedily sucking at nutritionless sunlight while the leaves do nothing more than (poorly) support the weight of the rest.
One must keep the roots where they belong.
As said before, I'm trying and failing to sleep, so this might be word salad in the morning. But, this is my immediate reaction, massive hunk of text that it is, and I felt you deserved that.
Nullified I believe that you described a sort of Fallen state that a human can come to. A profoundly pathological condition for which I know of no cure. If the Beast is utterly in control and the rational mind servant to it, then one has in fact "inverted the tree" so to speak. An easy object example of this is our current president. I've met other people in such a condition. They can be quite terrifying because you may not realize what you are dealing with until it is far too late. I don't really want to talk about it. Suffice it to say there are some people who are simply filled with Darkness... Some by Nature, others by choice. It doesn't really matter how you get there. Once you're there I know of no way to redeem such a person.
It's worth noting that I didn't put the capitalization into that. My voice recognition Auto capitalized it all.
It works for me!
Yeah, that's the worry. Getting too cozy with the monkey, showing it a bit too much free reign... well it doesn't do things by halves, it goes whole hog, all the cattle, most of the horses, and the cat too if it can reach it. You yourself note that several times. It is ballistic in its motion, only external forces can stop or even perturb it, and that's mostly by way of it not being truly conscious of them.
If it wants to rule the roost, you can't simply hope it won't make it there.
The problem is that because it's hijacking the rationalization machinery, you can't see the coup as it's happening. Rationalizations are the main tool we have for self reflection. Worse still, literally all the other tools we have must be built in that forge. We don't have any ability to self-reflect without it.
Doubtful sounding? I agree. So I encourage a thought experiment: decide on anything, anything at all without relying on either sheer impulse OR rationalization. Okay, now why did you do it?
Remember that adherence to a moral code, a logical solution to a problem, sating bodily wants and needs, and following the orders of someone else are all rationalizations.
In fact, if you can think of an answer to why you did something that isn't "I don't know", you are rationalizing an action. Go ahead and try to come up with a counterexample if you still doubt. I'll be here.
Given that it hijacks the only toolkit we have for examining ourselves, you can't see it in action. You can only try to prevent it from happening in the first place. Hence caging your Ape being (imo) the best possible solution.
But all this midnight brain dump aside, I think you basically understand the core problem we all have now.
Sorry if I'm repeating myself, but my problem is that something capable of hijacking peoples rationalisations is called Ape, Animal, or whatever. Yea, animals rationalise shit, but usually NOT in a level that would satisfy a human brain. So it seems to me that the thing we are talking about here is better categorized as a human, and I for one don't for a moment want to be involved in caging innocent apes for the crimes made by humans.
It's like christianity all over again, lock your animal instinct inside, don't have sex, you don't need to eat that much, and if you get angry about the king doing all the animal shit you don't, that's an absolute no no. But christians didn't associate this all to some primal ape, no they tied up all the fun, and not so fun things that could disrupt he order in this person they called Satantm. They also gifted this virtual person much deceptiveness, cunning and other shit, so that people would live in eternal doubt, if the voice inside their head was the actual Godtm, or Satantm trying to trick them again.
Christians would say that the self-defense ape Joseph was talking about was part of Satantm, but also the group defense ape, which is much easier to trick into committing unnecessary acts of violence, usually encouraged from the outside of the individual. And as the christians had very much time to fuck up with human psyche, most of these human, or animalistic parts of the whole are confused as the same thing.
Anyways. The Ape is your Father and Mother. In a very real sense it is your ancestor, and altough we have come a long way since then, it still carries ancient wisdom from the time before all the brainwashing, when truth wasn't manipulated by every goddessdamn fucker with a keyboard. So if something needs locking up, lock up the Satantm Godtm or any other man made concept. As apes are real things with feelings and thoughts I refuse to categorize our misdoings as part of them, AS ANY FUCKING ANIMAL WOULD BE FUCKING CHILL WITH ACCESS TO AS MUCH RESOURCES AS ANY OF US DO.
Con-troll I kind of love you. :)
Is also worth noting that animals do not bow down to Kings or priests. Well... Maybe you can train a dog to, but I can't really blame them for that. Their long-standing friendship with humanity is left them impressionable.
We are animals.
Quote from: Hoopla! on March 29, 2019, 02:19:05 PM
We are animals.
This.
Also note that the entire point is that the Ape /isn't rationalizing/ and /isn't bowing/. It's not doing that. It's making its human lackey do it. This is the metaphor. It shits everywhere and hoots and gibbers and the human has to clean everything up. The sapient part of the mind is making excuses to let the Ape do what it wants. This is like a family making excuses for their drunken garbage uncle.
Hijacking that machinery of rationalization isn't hard, all it takes is one moment of weakness. To employ a different metaphor: the rationalization engine is, from the exterior, less a complex machine and more a "Who's a good boy? You are!" Button. Any dumb animal can learn to press the button that allows them to feel good over and over.
In this case, "feeling good" is "eliminating cognitive dissonance": I'm not a bad person, that guy was a danger to everyone around him. Maybe I wrecked that bar but that bouncer didn't have to throw me out like that. We had to kill the village to save it.
When the animal presses the "Who's a good boy?" Button, the rationalization machinery spits out a treat and reassures whoever presses it that they're the good boy. All of the complexity is hidden.
So you are saying the Ape is the one that keeps me in home masturbating and I need to better myself,
suppress, enslave, or kill the Ape? That we are all fundamentally flawed and have this
orginal sin in us, and we better be careful that this thing
inside us doesn't topple us over and turn us into four limbs of high velocity impacts on bypassers faces? If you wanted to hurt people, you'd know, and the reason usually isn't even inside the person, because there isn't terribly much space in there in contrast to the outside.
What the Ape sees is the Reality. You can zoom as far in the quantum foam as you want, or come up with accurate sociological theories but none of that feels as Real as survival situations, or seeing a naked human body up close. That is the level where humans exist, and it cannot be locked away and ignored as long as there still is humans. Suppressing that only gives space for something far more sinister to creep in.
When you lock up the ape, all that's left is layers upon layers of brainwashing,
fake news and propaganda, that takes the control. The part we usually tend to call "the humanity". The Ape at least sort of has our self interest in its mind, it just wants to live a happy monkey life with lots of sex included if possible. But the Ape dies with its host. There is lots of stuff in our heads that don't. I'd be more worried about that.
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on March 29, 2019, 01:32:45 PM
Con-troll I kind of love you. :)
Gimme dat shit, it gets me through the day!
The above is in need of a response that, I must admit, I have no business writing. I don't have sufficient rage or intelligence.
Fortunately, it was already written for me.
"You're right: we should give up responsibility for making any difficult moral judgments, and surrender to the dictates of natural selection. Evolution cares so much about our happiness that no one who's obeyed an inherited urge has ever suffered a moment's regret for it. History is full of joyful case studies of people who followed their natural instincts at every opportunity--fucking whoever they could, stealing whatever they could, destroying anything that stood in their way--and the verdict is unanimous: any behavior that ever helped someone disseminate their genes is a recipe for unalloyed contentment, both for the practitioners, and for everyone around them."
—Greg Egan, Schild's Ladder
Quote from: nullified on March 29, 2019, 09:55:54 PM
The above is in need of a response that, I must admit, I have no business writing. I don't have sufficient rage or intelligence.
Fortunately, it was already written for me.
"You're right: we should give up responsibility for making any difficult moral judgments, and surrender to the dictates of natural selection. Evolution cares so much about our happiness that no one who's obeyed an inherited urge has ever suffered a moment's regret for it. History is full of joyful case studies of people who followed their natural instincts at every opportunity--fucking whoever they could, stealing whatever they could, destroying anything that stood in their way--and the verdict is unanimous: any behavior that ever helped someone disseminate their genes is a recipe for unalloyed contentment, both for the practitioners, and for everyone around them."
—Greg Egan, Schild's Ladder
I'm not gonna start arguing with authors not present.
I'm just gonna reformulate my point:
"It's bad for the overall welfare of the planet to speak of locking up even metaphorical animals, because we have
actual fucking death camps for them in every fucking country and nobody gives a shit."
Quote from: Hoopla! on March 29, 2019, 02:19:05 PM
We are animals.
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/2b/30/be/2b30be4e55007fbf7801e812c9a148f0.gif)
Quote from: Con-troll on March 30, 2019, 03:47:20 PM
Quote from: nullified on March 29, 2019, 09:55:54 PM
The above is in need of a response that, I must admit, I have no business writing. I don't have sufficient rage or intelligence.
Fortunately, it was already written for me.
"You're right: we should give up responsibility for making any difficult moral judgments, and surrender to the dictates of natural selection. Evolution cares so much about our happiness that no one who's obeyed an inherited urge has ever suffered a moment's regret for it. History is full of joyful case studies of people who followed their natural instincts at every opportunity--fucking whoever they could, stealing whatever they could, destroying anything that stood in their way--and the verdict is unanimous: any behavior that ever helped someone disseminate their genes is a recipe for unalloyed contentment, both for the practitioners, and for everyone around them."
—Greg Egan, Schild's Ladder
I'm not gonna start arguing with authors not present.
I'm just gonna reformulate my point:
"It's bad for the overall welfare of the planet to speak of locking up even metaphorical animals, because we have actual fucking death camps for them in every fucking country and nobody gives a shit."
That point is not worth giving an actual, well thought out response, though. You are quite literally hand-wringing over choice of metaphor.
This is your wake up call, return to earth! This is the forum where we riff on cannibalism and get lols in response!
You're either prioritizing animal suffering over human suffering (in which case FUCK YOU, FWIW, you've lost all respect by diving off the Vegan Deep End — and no, this isn't human chauvinism, I'll gladly go into the debate with someone who is attached to reality to prove it) or just trying to "win" the discussion on the grounds of /a metaphorical title referring to what a human actually literally is as opposed to what we think of ourselves as/ is UNSAVORY.
WAKE UP, DUDE. Reframe yourself. We aren't talking about a goddamn PR campaign. This is a discussion on a forum about specific philosophical concepts, necessarily using flashy, metaphorical language because legit words for these things do not exist.
But more importantly?
You didn't put your foot down on talking about shit like, say "carving away the unskillful parts of us" despite the possibility someone reading might have a history of self-harm, you drew the line at /an animal label being applied to something about an actual literal animal that I am painting in a negative light/. This is like saying a transgender Nazi shouldn't be called transgender because it makes everyone else who is trans look like Nazis.*
I utterly and completely reject this sort of stupidity in the first place, it's the sort of shit that makes edgy high schoolers say they aren't human because they don't want to be associated with stupid humans.
But to prioritize that over something that is, yes, stupid but at least based in real, legitimate compassion and an actual fucking risk? Wake up!
:aaaah:
I seems like we are having a conversation :lulz:
It's not humans or animals, as many seem to think. As is has been stated in this very thread, human is a type of animal, hence pain inflicted to one tends to propagate to other. Call it karma or whatever. Thing is, animal death camps are just a step away from people death camps. Especially when a portion of people seem to categorize part of population as animals. "Apes".
Animal death camps produces sadistic individuals, butchers, part of workforce who murder for money. Yes there is also some doing that to people, but the difference is the sheer scale. Animal death camps produce apathy and indifference about mass killings. Yes, they are "only animals". And suddenly when your state wants to do genocide, all the rationalizations are conviniently in place.
I am worried about humans. Because humans have this way of thinking, where every animalistic aspect of them is kinda outdated and if they could just shed them off they'd become some fucking "übermensch" or shit like that. People are animals who are constantly blamed for being too animal, and that hurts everyone.
Trying to get back to topic now. Why can't you feed the anger? Is doing angry things feeding the anger? Is there any reason to be angry? Why can't you trick the monkey to think it has gotten its revenge by beating up a mattress?
The entire point both Joseph and I have been repeatedly making is that the animal part of being human is still part of being human. People without it aren't better, they're broken. This doesn't make it any less dangerous.
If you take the uranium out of a nuclear reactor, it stops working. That doesn't mean you just leave it lying around, or pile it up in great big mounds, because that is how you give a great many people cancer. The only good place for that uranium is in the (heavily sealed you better hope by god) reactor. We don't even know what to do with it anymore once the reactor's done with it.
Does this metaphor make it more clear what the point is?
My anger is dead, ooch. But yeah there's that animal stuff, still, I need sleep.
Quote from: nullified on March 31, 2019, 12:24:30 AM
The entire point both Joseph and I have been repeatedly making is that the animal part of being human is still part of being human. People without it aren't better, they're broken. This doesn't make it any less dangerous.
If you take the uranium out of a nuclear reactor, it stops working. That doesn't mean you just leave it lying around, or pile it up in great big mounds, because that is how you give a great many people cancer. The only good place for that uranium is in the (heavily sealed you better hope by god) reactor. We don't even know what to do with it anymore once the reactor's done with it.
Does this metaphor make it more clear what the point is?
That's like saying you should contain your sadness, so it won't affect other people. That leads to depression.
If more people were visibly angry, people would have to work out the cause. And no, I am not talking about the artificial political anger. That isn't coming from inside.
Quote from: Con-troll on March 31, 2019, 12:18:46 AM
I seems like we are having a conversation :lulz:
It's not humans or animals, as many seem to think. As is has been stated in this very thread, human is a type of animal, hence pain inflicted to one tends to propagate to other. Call it karma or whatever. Thing is, animal death camps are just a step away from people death camps. Especially when a portion of people seem to categorize part of population as animals. "Apes".
Animal death camps produces sadistic individuals, butchers, part of workforce who murder for money. Yes there is also some doing that to people, but the difference is the sheer scale. Animal death camps produce apathy and indifference about mass killings. Yes, they are "only animals". And suddenly when your state wants to do genocide, all the rationalizations are conviniently in place.
I am worried about humans. Because humans have this way of thinking, where every animalistic aspect of them is kinda outdated and if they could just shed them off they'd become some fucking "übermensch" or shit like that. People are animals who are constantly blamed for being too animal, and that hurts everyone.
Trying to get back to topic now. Why can't you feed the anger? Is doing angry things feeding the anger? Is there any reason to be angry? Why can't you trick the monkey to think it has gotten its revenge by beating up a mattress?
Is this the part where I feel bad about this ham sammich I'm eating?
Because that's not going to happen. Never in this lifetime.
You feel bad because you didn't get to kill the ham yourself.
Quote from: Con-troll on March 31, 2019, 03:40:45 AM
You feel bad because you didn't get to kill the ham yourself.
As long as the pig finds its way onto some sourdough bread, I'm not actually picky.
Quote from: The Wizard Joseph on March 17, 2019, 01:10:59 AM
OP
I mean, its not a complete equivalence by any means, but in psychoanalysis theres supposedly two primordial drives: life drive and death drive (aka, Eros and Thanatos)... i wish i had the energy and motivation to make a comparison to the Sacred Chao but im 100% certain it can be done... one tendency constructs and binds, while the other pulls apart and desintegrates, and just as these forces or tendencies exist in the universe they exist within us.
Now, of all things youre referring to, this Holy Rage seems a mixture of expression of both, it is the death drive used and motivated for the preservation of ones own life... would that be whats Holy about it, that the Rage is justified for its practical and legitimate use?
And while doing baseball practice against a mattress sure can count as exersice and an adrenaline high or even count as a particular type of cathartic therapy, as an outlet for this death drive that we all have within us... i wouldnt consider thats how you find or get to your "True Self"
(This response is exclusive to the OP, now ill start to read the actual thread)
And well, after reading the whole thread:
It appears we had some heavy misunderstandings between you all in the conversation and interpretation of the OP :lulz:
Theres this thing y'all discussed that was interesting, all these different postures and takes on what should be done with out inner "animal", "ape" or whatever everyone chose to call it... and its basically an issue that has been discussed ad nauseum but never quite resolved in neither theology nor in the field of mental health.
Within my frame of reference and specialization, its the drama between the "Id" and the "Ego"... Christianity, rationalism and also psychiatry have over centuries argued for the repression and suppression of the Id, either on grounds that its the manifestation of Satan and what is immoral, or that its just irrational lunacy that is useless and disruptive or merely just because its economically unproductive.
Even Freud, like all the burgouise rationalist capitalists, spoke of the Ego as the jockey that should dominate and lead the Id which is his horse - this framed within a discourse on how Man should control and exploit Nature, even that part of "nature" which is within us.
The problem is that, this exploitation and domination of the Id only leads to suffering and unhappiness... CNO argued that this hypothetical internal beast doesnt get enraged from lack of play, but i would not tend to agree with him... just as we have a drive for pleasure, we have a drive for destruction (or at least of some type of control or expression of our power)... thats a universal given for humans, but the possible difference is how we express or satisfy these drives... will your frustration lead you to abuse some vulnerable minority? or will it be the fuel to better yourself? or will you be conscious enough to understand what frustrated you and direct your energy towards it?
Johnny sees the Elephant!
Lets maul him to pulp with tire irons!
Quote from: Con-troll on March 31, 2019, 12:18:46 AM
Trying to get back to topic now. Why can't you feed the anger? Is doing angry things feeding the anger? Is there any reason to be angry? Why can't you trick the monkey to think it has gotten its revenge by beating up a mattress?
You gotta be careful with that, because the angry monkey
likes being angry
https://www.nytimes.com/1983/03/08/science/venting-anger-may-do-more-harm-than-good.html
Quote from: The Johnny on March 31, 2019, 08:47:06 AM
Within my frame of reference and specialization, its the drama between the "Id" and the "Ego"... Christianity, rationalism and also psychiatry have over centuries argued for the repression and suppression of the Id, either on grounds that its the manifestation of Satan and what is immoral, or that its just irrational lunacy that is useless and disruptive or merely just because its economically unproductive.
Even Freud, like all the burgouise rationalist capitalists, spoke of the Ego as the jockey that should dominate and lead the Id which is his horse - this framed within a discourse on how Man should control and exploit Nature, even that part of "nature" which is within us.
The problem is that, this exploitation and domination of the Id only leads to suffering and unhappiness...
I dunno about that, I think that having reigns on my id has kept me out of a lot of shit. In my teen years, I was helpless to stop that beast, and it did a lot of damage to me and the people around me.
I would say that the more I mastered my "id" impulses, the less I've allowed it to hijack my control panel, the more my happiness has been increased and my suffering decreased.
There is definitely a problem if you are denying the id everything it wants, but there is a long range between resisting impulses and being a stick-up-the-ass puritan. I do let my id out to play, but ideally, that's a choice I consciously make.
On a whim, I gave up something for lent this year. Without getting into details--it's been an ongoing test of self control. The first few days really made me question my own
capacity to change a pleasurable habit. As we pull into the home stretch, I feel like I have exercised something, built up a kind of muscle... and that feels pretty damn good too.
Quote from: Cramulus on March 31, 2019, 02:19:17 PM
I dunno about that, I think that having reigns on my id has kept me out of a lot of shit. In my teen years, I was helpless to stop that beast, and it did a lot of damage to me and the people around me.
I would say that the more I mastered my "id" impulses, the less I've allowed it to hijack my control panel, the more my happiness has been increased and my suffering decreased.
There is definitely a problem if you are denying the id everything it wants, but there is a long range between resisting impulses and being a stick-up-the-ass puritan. I do let my id out to play, but ideally, that's a choice I consciously make.
On a whim, I gave up something for lent this year. Without getting into details--it's been an ongoing test of self control. The first few days really made me question my own capacity to change a pleasurable habit. As we pull into the home stretch, I feel like I have exercised something, built up a kind of muscle... and that feels pretty damn good too.
The issue with the Id is that it functions on the basis of the pleasure principle regardless of morals or consequences... it demands satisfaction with no regards to anyone or anything, so I can understand the problems with just letting it loose.
I dont think we really disagree, the Ego after all is the residence of conscience and reality principle, but the Ego in itself has a lot of traps and issues in itself... narcissism, rationalization, the tendency to always being hijacked by peer pressure...
Let the Id run free and you have either artists, psychopaths or psychotics... let the Ego run misdirected and uncontested and you have a suit, or a repressed normie that follows the letter of the law...
So I still personally reject the notion of "caging, dominating" the Id, which doesnt mean im a degenerate follower of Reich or Marcuse (they see all repression or self-control as the root of all problems), id prefer speaking of doing diplomacy or agreements between Id and Ego, between pleasure and reality principles... we cant be tyrants with ourselves and expect a part of us not to revolt, at the end of the day i think its problem of inner governance.
And ill give a very crude example myself, sometimes i dont jack off when im in the mood just so that instead of wasting that powerful energy i can spend it on exersice, reading, writing... in a sense it was a delayed and transformed gratification, but it provides a comparable degree of satisfaction whilst being actually productive.
Quote from: Con-troll on March 31, 2019, 10:23:50 AM
Johnny sees the Elephant!
Lets maul him to pulp with tire irons!
At least it sounds less lame than doing batting practice against a mattress :lulz:
my current framework is
the self is fragmented
the inner beast we're discussing here is one of those parts
These aspects of self do not communicate with each other, they are often ignorant of each other's needs and act independantly.
What I'd call the 'true self' is the integration of these personal aspects. Ideally, they support each other, recognizing each other's needs and not blocking one another. Each is given its turn at the right time.
under normal circumstances, these selves rarely act in unison--they tend to argue and distract each other.
There must be another inner self, which they all listen to and respect.
This self is the master of the house.
By default, this master is not home. We have to create it. But that's another topic.
I can pretty much agree on everything you just said despite of thinking of it in a different conceptual language.
The only thing that sounds out of place or odd is why youd call this integration of parts the "True Self"?... Would each fragmented part be one out of two "false selves"? Why put to play the category of truth or falseness when the seemingly more relevant category is integration or separation?
Why must non-truth be falsehood?
If you ask someone where you can find a Golden Apple Tree, and they do not answer, have you been lied to?
I have only false selves. It cuts down on confusion.
TGRR/Little Billy/Padre Dolor/Doktor Howl? Which one is real? None of them. I refused to be pinned down by reality or common sense. I am Godzilla on rollerskates, Bubba, and if you see me coming, you better run.
Quote from: The Johnny on April 01, 2019, 01:13:15 AM
The only thing that sounds out of place or odd is why youd call this integration of parts the "True Self"?
I could type a mountain answering this, but I don't want to jack this great thread with my own blah blah blah - to answer in brief
While not-integrated, we are constantly at war with ourselves
in special moments, flashes of insight, the disparate processors can "hear" each other - this state of being feels
real in a way that makes the rest of life feel like a dream
Life is Real Only Then, When 'I Am'
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 01, 2019, 06:50:08 AM
I have only false selves. It cuts down on confusion.
TGRR/Little Billy/Padre Dolor/Doktor Howl? Which one is real? None of them. I refused to be pinned down by reality or common sense. I am Godzilla on rollerskates, Bubba, and if you see me coming, you better run.
Wait just a god damn minute...
Little Billy isn't real?!
Your homework assignment: Find your inner beast and fuck it.
Quote from: Hoopla! on April 01, 2019, 01:51:33 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 01, 2019, 06:50:08 AM
I have only false selves. It cuts down on confusion.
TGRR/Little Billy/Padre Dolor/Doktor Howl? Which one is real? None of them. I refused to be pinned down by reality or common sense. I am Godzilla on rollerskates, Bubba, and if you see me coming, you better run.
Wait just a god damn minute...
Little Billy isn't real?!
Billy is, that's a totally different dude. I am referring to the Little Billy of the Mysticwicks era.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 01, 2019, 09:07:23 PM
Quote from: Hoopla! on April 01, 2019, 01:51:33 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 01, 2019, 06:50:08 AM
I have only false selves. It cuts down on confusion.
TGRR/Little Billy/Padre Dolor/Doktor Howl? Which one is real? None of them. I refused to be pinned down by reality or common sense. I am Godzilla on rollerskates, Bubba, and if you see me coming, you better run.
Wait just a god damn minute...
Little Billy isn't real?!
Billy is, that's a totally different dude. I am referring to the Little Billy of the Mysticwicks era.
Oh thank god
Quote from: Fujikoma on April 01, 2019, 06:54:50 PM
Your homework assignment: Find your inner beast and fuck it.
Sounds like Furry propaganda to me!