state in clear words what your specific questions are
so far, i gather this much:
you: is there any mysterious use for 'occult'?
me: no
you: is there flaws in science?
me: yes
you arent gonna catch any hate from me
and the admin here is good enough to handle business if you expose yourself as troll
me and Rev Rog have had enuf good builds to be on good terms
we are at least on the same page that stagnation is the wrong approach to things
if you are interested enuf, ill refer you to some threads
most of the stuff here is abstract and hypothetical but the aim is at being more effective in practical persuits
no need to fuck up a bunch of threads if you got specific questions that require back-tracking
Well, this is better. This is probably how we should have started off.
I don't have any particular problem with the Map thread, except that I am having a great deal of trouble with the language and/or jargon content. Is it actually literal? And if so, what is the point?
I don't have a huge amount of trouble with the occult thread, except for the fact that I find it hard to accept the fact that so many obviously intelligent people would waste their precious time on this Earth in farting around with something so useless and basic.
I don't have any particular problem with you, other than with the response I got when I asked for clarification on those two threads. I think I've developed a problem with this Buddhist Monk fellow, though. He seems like a total fucktard who can't get past basic ad hominem. Rush Limbaugh fan, seems like.
And as for Roger, he and I go way back, along with Efrim, Pedro, and the rest of the original Evil Geniuses crew (before that, really. We were in the army together). I haven't heard from the bastard in forever, so here I am. I messaged him looking for his email, and when he returns ancd gives it to me, I will disappear and leave you all in peace.
On that subject, it seems from his thread that he is 5 days late coming back from the desert. Anyone have a cell # for him?
aight cool:
here it is:
occult systems - tarot, palmistry, astrology, as they are commonly used right now are nonsense
entertainment
they are good for fooling people
playing on sensitivities etc
but
they are useful from 2 angles:
1 - they suggest a process
2 - they all suggest the same process
it is nothing more than a creative description of a observed process
a process that starts with birth, progresses to death and suggests re-birth
call it whatever you want to call it
creative story telling
so in that sense, it is literal
these are literal descriptions of a process
a lot of the threads here have focused on figuring out where/why/how these systems developed
different people have different reasons for investigating this
for me personally, it makes it easy to put dope material together
the greatest story ever told can be told 10000000000 different ways
as for doing useless things - i guess that depends on your perspective on things
whats useful?
a lot of people say we are on the brink of apocalypse
most of the other people are doped up on various substances or hooked on money and chasing tail
if you buy into some sort of magic in occult systems, i feel sorry for you
but
if you dismiss any value that can be derived from occult systems, i dont think thats a wise move either
yin/yang was not a money-making scheme invented by the ancient chinese
the local i ching reader in any north american china-town does, however, prey on customer ignorance
Monk is a good dude
he grilled me on this shit before when i was debunking astrology
Quote from: LHX on February 16, 2007, 03:15:47 AM
aight cool:
here it is:
occult systems - tarot, palmistry, astrology, as they are commonly used right now are nonsense
entertainment
they are good for fooling people
playing on sensitivities etc
but
they are useful from 2 angles:
1 - they suggest a process
2 - they all suggest the same process
Yeah. The process of gullible monkeys and clever, exploitative monkeys. I can see the humor in that, same as you. I just don't see what new thing is being examined by the conversation.
Quote from: LHX on February 16, 2007, 03:15:47 AM
as for doing useless things - i guess that depends on your perspective on things
whats useful?
a lot of people say we are on the brink of apocalypse
most of the other people are doped up on various substances or hooked on money and chasing tail
Well, let's assume that we ARE on the brink of an apocalypse. What are you and I going to do about it? Not a fucking thing. This is why we have to behave as if the world is going to be here tomorrow. We can't change it, and nothing is certain. If you give up and there's no apocalypse...
And dope and chasing tail are the time-honored daily activities of the monkey. We've all been there. Not every day is a day for deep and weighty things. Sometimes you just have to get drunk and laid.
Quote from: LHX on February 16, 2007, 03:15:47 AMif you buy into some sort of magic in occult systems, i feel sorry for you
but
if you dismiss any value that can be derived from occult systems, i dont think thats a wise move either
I fail to see any value in occult systems, other than to hoodwink idiots.
Quote from: LHX on February 16, 2007, 03:15:47 AM
yin/yang was not a money-making scheme invented by the ancient chinese
Tell that to the patients of not-so-ancient Chinese doctors.
Quote from: LHX on February 16, 2007, 03:15:47 AM
Monk is a good dude
he grilled me on this shit before when i was debunking astrology
Depends on where you sit. If you sit in your chair, he's probably the cat's ass. From my chair, though, he's a chickenshit hit-and-run artist.
Quote from: Doc Howl on February 16, 2007, 03:25:03 AM
Quote from: LHX on February 16, 2007, 03:15:47 AM
aight cool:
here it is:
occult systems - tarot, palmistry, astrology, as they are commonly used right now are nonsense
entertainment
they are good for fooling people
playing on sensitivities etc
but
they are useful from 2 angles:
1 - they suggest a process
2 - they all suggest the same process
Yeah.  The process of gullible monkeys and clever, exploitative monkeys.  I can see the humor in that, same as you.  I just don't see what new thing is being examined by the conversation. 
Quote from: LHX on February 16, 2007, 03:15:47 AM
as for doing useless things - i guess that depends on your perspective on things
whats useful?
a lot of people say we are on the brink of apocalypse
most of the other people are doped up on various substances or hooked on money and chasing tail
Well, let's assume that we ARE on the brink of an apocalypse.  What are you and I going to do about it?  Not a fucking thing.  This is why we have to behave as if the world is going to be here tomorrow.  We can't change it, and nothing is certain.  If you give up and there's no apocalypse...
And dope and chasing tail are the time-honored daily activities of the monkey.  We've all been there.  Not every day is a day for deep and weighty things.  Sometimes you just have to get drunk and laid.
Quote from: LHX on February 16, 2007, 03:15:47 AMif you buy into some sort of magic in occult systems, i feel sorry for you
but
if you dismiss any value that can be derived from occult systems, i dont think thats a wise move either
I fail to see any value in occult systems, other than to hoodwink idiots.
Quote from: LHX on February 16, 2007, 03:15:47 AM
yin/yang was not a money-making scheme invented by the ancient chinese
Tell that to the patients of not-so-ancient Chinese doctors.
Quote from: LHX on February 16, 2007, 03:15:47 AM
Monk is a good dude
he grilled me on this shit before when i was debunking astrology
Depends on where you sit.  If you sit in your chair, he's probably the cat's ass.  From my chair, though, he's a chickenshit hit-and-run artist.
Sorry if I came off badly in the beginning. You sounded like a troll. Please forgive me
Please also forgive me for being a "hit and run". When someone more or less says I love you and want to spend the rest of my life with you, its an event that shakes you up.
Im alittle busy talking to that person at the moment.
Quote from: Buddhist_Monk_Wannabe on February 16, 2007, 03:28:47 AM
[Sorry if I came off badly in the beginning. You sounded like a troll. Please forgive me
Please also forgive me for being a "hit and run". When someone more or less says I love you and want to spend the rest of my life with you, its an event that shakes you up.
Im alittle busy talking to that person at the moment.
Alright.
I still want an answer to my question, though.
ADD - Oh, and run for your life.
Quote from: Doc Howl on February 16, 2007, 03:25:03 AM
Well, let's assume that we ARE on the brink of an apocalypse. What are you and I going to do about it? Not a fucking thing. This is why we have to behave as if the world is going to be here tomorrow. We can't change it, and nothing is certain. If you give up and there's no apocalypse...
man
i have a lot of respect for what military-folk have been forced to endure
but i aint really feeling you on this one
build tolerance
understand your limitations
expanding awareness
refinement is a process that never ends
thats certain
exploring things isnt fun?
thats the funnest shit in the universe
Quote from: Doc Howl on February 16, 2007, 03:25:03 AM
And dope and chasing tail are the time-honored daily activities of the monkey. We've all been there. Not every day is a day for deep and weighty things. Sometimes you just have to get drunk and laid.
everybody has hobbies
every day is a day for deep and weighty things
that dont mean it aint enjoyable
Quote from: Doc Howl on February 16, 2007, 03:25:03 AM
I fail to see any value in occult systems, other than to hoodwink idiots.
explore it then
when i was a kid, i thought girls were yucky
Quote from: Doc Howl on February 16, 2007, 03:25:03 AM
Quote from: LHX on February 16, 2007, 03:15:47 AM
yin/yang was not a money-making scheme invented by the ancient chinese
Tell that to the patients of not-so-ancient Chinese doctors.
you wanna dismiss yin/yang too?
damn yo
what are you made out of? sugar and spice?
you are right from one angle tho
i cant hold something in my hand and say 'this is yin/yang'
i aint gonna hold fast to things i cant readily demonstrate
Quote from: LHX on February 16, 2007, 03:40:04 AM
you wanna dismiss yin/yang too?
Yeah, same as I dismiss "bile" and "humors". Pennicillin works; this is testable and repeatable. Yin/Yang is superstitious crap.
You are aware that until very recently, you had a better chance of surviving an illness if you DIDN'T go to the doctor, right? Bullshit like yin/yang and "humors" are why.
Quote from: LHX on February 16, 2007, 03:40:04 AM
damn yo
what are you made out of? sugar and spice?
I am made out of the same thing you are. I am a bag of guts suspended on a calcium-based framework. I have the passing fancy that I am intelligent, and the occasion conceit that I am the main player in the poorly written sitcom I live in. I spend the majority of my time trying to forget my mortality, and the rest fucking with the other monkeys around me. I also consider myself incredibly fortunate, in that I was among the lucky 5% of monkeys born into the incredible affluence that is America, and in that I have found a reasonably large group of monkeys that I can actually trust. My purpose in being here is to locate one of those monkeys that has gone too long without talking to any of his friends in Illinois.
Quote from: Doc Howl on February 16, 2007, 03:49:36 AM
Pennicillin works
you sure about that?
give it a little while longer, and the correct statement will be
'penicillin worked before we realized the long-term effects of it'
you do know what anti-biotic means, right?
Quote from: Doc Howl on February 16, 2007, 03:49:36 AM
I am made out of the same thing you are. I am a bag of guts suspended on a calcium-based framework. I have the passing fancy that I am intelligent, and the occasion conceit that I am the main player in the poorly written sitcom I live in. I spend the majority of my time trying to forget my mortality, and the rest fucking with the other monkeys around me. I also consider myself incredibly fortunate, in that I was among the lucky 5% of monkeys born into the incredible affluence that is America, and in that I have found a reasonably large group of monkeys that I can actually trust. My purpose in being here is to locate one of those monkeys that has gone too long without talking to any of his friends in Illinois.
what do you want me to say dude?
you sound like youve convinced yourself to stop exploring
sound like a old man
dont like new shit
id hit with a low blow and say maybe thats the reason why you aint heard from the Rev
but
it aint my style
where does your nervous system fit into your biological expertise?
in that bag of guts
this is a sitcom alright
Quote from: LHX on February 16, 2007, 04:02:48 AM
Quote from: Doc Howl on February 16, 2007, 03:49:36 AM
Pennicillin works
you sure about that?
give it a little while longer, and the correct statement will be
'penicillin worked before we realized the long-term effects of it'
you do know what anti-biotic means, right?
It works because it's a bacteriophage.  Now, please explain the long term effects to me.
Quote from: LHX on February 16, 2007, 04:02:48 AM
what do you want me to say dude?
you sound like youve convinced yourself to stop exploring
No, I've just learned to not waste time exploring dead-ends that have been explored 3,000,000 times before.
Quote from: LHX on February 16, 2007, 04:02:48 AM
sound like a old man
dont like new shit
You see an old man, you just knock him down, son.
Quote from: LHX on February 16, 2007, 04:02:48 AM
id hit with a low blow and say maybe thats the reason why you aint heard from the Rev
but
it aint my style
That's funny, because you just did.  Of course, you really don't know what the fuck you're talking about in this particular case, but your willingness to both try to use and NOT use that nasty little comment have been duly noted.
Quote from: LHX on February 16, 2007, 04:02:48 AM
where does your nervous system fit into your biological expertise?
in that bag of guts
Yeah.  Your point?
Quote from: LHX on February 16, 2007, 04:02:48 AM
this is a sitcom alright
You're damn right it is.  And it's about as funny as Three's Company.
Quote from: Doc Howl on February 16, 2007, 04:08:50 AM
It works because it's a bacteriophage. Now, please explain the long term effects to me.
hard-headedness?
hypersensitivity?
Quote from: Doc Howl on February 16, 2007, 04:08:50 AM
Quote from: LHX on February 16, 2007, 04:02:48 AM
what do you want me to say dude?
you sound like youve convinced yourself to stop exploring
No, I've just learned to not waste time exploring dead-ends that have been explored 3,000,000 times before.
yeah
lets just crack open a beer and watch it go down
Quote from: Doc Howl on February 16, 2007, 04:08:50 AM
Quote from: LHX on February 16, 2007, 04:02:48 AM
sound like a old man
dont like new shit
You see an old man, you just knock him down, son.
yeah ok pal
no matter what stance you wanna take, we got more in common than out-of-common just by virtue of discussing this
we are basically best friends at this point
Quote from: Doc Howl on February 16, 2007, 04:08:50 AM
Quote from: LHX on February 16, 2007, 04:02:48 AM
id hit with a low blow and say maybe thats the reason why you aint heard from the Rev
but
it aint my style
That's funny, because you just did. Of course, you really don't know what the fuck you're talking about in this particular case, but your willingness to both try to use and NOT use that nasty little comment have been duly noted.
dont bother playing sensitive
youre a idiot, im a moron
if youre gonna act hurt by tongue in cheek humor from some knucklehead you came across on the internet, ill be in the corner trying to suck my own dick
Quote from: Doc Howl on February 16, 2007, 04:08:50 AM
You're damn right it is. And it's about as funny as Three's Company.
Full House up in this joint
wheres bob saget
Quote from: LHX on February 16, 2007, 04:17:15 AM
Quote from: Doc Howl on February 16, 2007, 04:08:50 AM
It works because it's a bacteriophage.  Now, please explain the long term effects to me.
hard-headedness?
hypersensitivity?
That's possible, probably due to the carrier being used to move the phage. However, it's a no-brainer when it comes to comparing that to dying of strep throat. The "anti-biotic" thing was funny, though, considering the phage involved cannot harm human cells.
Quote from: LHX on February 16, 2007, 04:17:15 AM
yeah
lets just crack open a beer and watch it go down
I'm sure you had a point there, but I seem to have missed it entirely.
Quote from: LHX on February 16, 2007, 04:17:15 AM
dont bother playing sensitive
youre a idiot, im a moron
If I had decided to take offense, you'd know it.
Quote from: LHX on February 16, 2007, 04:17:15 AM
if youre gonna act hurt by tongue in cheek humor from some knucklehead you came across on the internet, ill be in the corner trying to suck my own dick
What the hell are you talking about?
Quote from: LHX on February 16, 2007, 04:17:15 AM
wheres bob saget
He ran away, just when we really needed him. Just like Mr Roper.
Quote from: Doc Howl on February 16, 2007, 04:21:51 AM
That's possible, probably due to the carrier being used to move the phage. However, it's a no-brainer when it comes to comparing that to dying of strep throat. The "anti-biotic" thing was funny, though, considering the phage involved cannot harm human cells.
aight dude
im done for the day
obviously you know that anything you consume has a effect on you
and obviously you know that your entire digestive system is composed of bacteria
and obviously you know that penicillin leads to stronger strains of disease which makes me wonder why you are keeping the discussion up
but regardless
its good you came by
kept things lively and shit
generally quiet in the evenings these days
hope you stick around or at least to check back to see where all this deconstruction leads to
its a revolving door here
people come, people go
best of luck tracking down the Rev
Hey there, Doc.
LHX tried this, but there seemed to be a stumble somewhere in the communications.
Let,Äôs see if my inane ramblings help in any way. I noticed a few things you were wondering about, and I,Äôll try to address them as I see them. Because full explanations would take a very long time to write, I,Äôll do my best to sum up; but please keep in mind that the more redacted I make this, the less complete it will be. So yeah, you,Äôll probably notice some loopholes and/or flaws, but (hopefully) these have been dealt with, but merely omitted for the sake of brevity.
Ok: ,Äúthe Map is not the Territory.,Äù There is a line of thinking stating that the sensations we perceive are somewhat different than what caused those sensations in the first place. That is to say, through biological and psychological limitations, the human is unable to see the Universe for what it ,Äúreally,Äù is. Granted, when someone is trying to hit you with a barstool, what you perceive ends up working really well. Since the biological limitations are more or less common to all of us, we,Äôll focus on the psychological. Through cultural assimilation and other such means, a human sees the world through a specific filter, which can be described as a set of experiences, teachings, and thoughts. Since each human,Äôs experiences, teachings, and thoughts are different from another,Äôs (however slightly), we can say that there are many, many ways of looking at the Universe. This is the ,ÄúMap,Äù. The problem being addressed is what happens when a human thinks that their filter/map is the ,Äúreal,Äù universe, the only way of looking at things. In this way, they are mistaking their filter for the Universe, they are thinking that their Map doesn,Äôt approximate the territory, but actually is the territory. I know this sounds fairly simple, but it,Äôs amazing how many people (myself included) keep forgetting it.
The Black Iron Prison is a reworking of this concept, in that it envisions the psychological and biological limitations as a prison cell that prevents us from experiencing the complete Universe. You can change the way your cell is shaped, which changes the way you perceive things, but you can never fully escape.
So, now that we have this as a basis, we get to the next, and possibly most contentious, point: the occult. Ok, this is gonna be hard, because I can tell you just rolled your eyes.
To me, things like kaballah, Christian mysticism, Sufis, Taoism, and the like don,Äôt hold ,Äúcosmic truths,Äù or ,Äúrevelations.,Äù I look at them as pictures of someone else,Äôs grid/filter/map/prison cell. Depending on which system it is, it can sometimes be radically different than my own. I enjoy reading about them because I enjoy new ideas, even if those ideas aren,Äôt connected in any way to what I consider ,Äúreality,Äù to be. So, the question of ,Äúwhy do I enjoy them?,Äù seems to be relevant here. The way I think my brain might work is that my creativity comes from bringing two ideas together that weren,Äôt together before. Wait, that sounded weird and esoteric. What I mean is, what if I thought about cars in terms of tectonic plate shifts? I don,Äôt know what that means, but I have a feeling that it would lead to a few things I hadn,Äôt really thought about before. I know, that,Äôs a bullshit example, but if you don,Äôt look at the example too specifically, you can see what I,Äôm getting at.
Now, keep in mind that I,Äôm talking psychological here. For use in the physical Universe, and to describe the things in it and how they move, there is no better tool than science. I never deal with the stuff outside my head using any sort of occult system or superstition (ok, maybe not always. I,Äôm as fallible as the next monkey). So, when I talk about the occult, I,Äôm not talking about some Secret Knowledge about how Things Really Work, I,Äôm talking about new mental connections that you can make to see things in new ways; a way to change your filter. It might not be the most useful filter, but there might be one or two things in it that can help in the way I see the Universe.
We need Pedro back here. More thoughts later, once coffee 2 kicks in and I send a few emails (another job in the line)...
Quote from: LMNO on February 16, 2007, 01:37:49 PM
Ok:¬† ,Äúthe Map is not the Territory.,Äù¬† There is a line of thinking stating that the sensations we perceive are somewhat different than what caused those sensations in the first place.¬† That is to say, through biological and psychological limitations, the human is unable to see the Universe for what it ,Äúreally,Äù is.¬† Granted, when someone is trying to hit you with a barstool, what you perceive ends up working really well.¬†
Can't see the universe for what it really is, or WON'T?
Quote from: LMNO on February 16, 2007, 01:37:49 PM
To me, things like kaballah, Christian mysticism, Sufis, Taoism, and the like don,Äôt hold ,Äúcosmic truths,Äù or ,Äúrevelations.,Äù¬† I look at them as pictures of someone else,Äôs grid/filter/map/prison cell.¬†
Now that makes perfect sense. Thanks.
Quote from: Cain on February 16, 2007, 01:47:36 PM
We need Pedro back here.  More thoughts later, once coffee 2 kicks in and I send a few emails (another job in the line)...
Pedro won't come back. He was here at the house last night while I was posting. He got out of the joint a while back and tried to post, and he'd been banned. He said for you all to fuck yourselves.
That was the old Mgt. She still owns the site, but doesn't run it anymore. There was a coup, and since I'm the only admin around right now, I'd like to see him posting again.
Quote from: Doc Howl on February 16, 2007, 01:57:09 PM
Quote from: LMNO on February 16, 2007, 01:37:49 PM
Ok:¬† ,Äúthe Map is not the Territory.,Äù¬† There is a line of thinking stating that the sensations we perceive are somewhat different than what caused those sensations in the first place.¬† That is to say, through biological and psychological limitations, the human is unable to see the Universe for what it ,Äúreally,Äù is.¬† Granted, when someone is trying to hit you with a barstool, what you perceive ends up working really well.¬†
Can't see the universe for what it really is, or WON'T?
Actually, both.  Biologically, we are only able to see a slim spectrum of light, only hear a slim spectrum of sound, only feel a specific range of pressure, etc.  We can use machines to tell us of these other lights/sounds/etc, but what they tell us are "recorded events", and not the actual sound/light wave.
Psychologically, concious or subconcious, we seem to make choices about what the sensations we pay attention to.  While we can't change our biology (yet), we
can try to change our psychology.
Quote from: Cain on February 16, 2007, 02:03:34 PM
That was the old Mgt.  She still owns the site, but doesn't run it anymore. There was a coup, and since I'm the only admin around right now, I'd like to see him posting again.
Let me ask him tonight when he comes over.
Quote from: LMNO on February 16, 2007, 02:04:13 PM
Actually, both.  Biologically, we are only able to see a slim spectrum of light, only hear a slim spectrum of sound, only feel a specific range of pressure, etc.  We can use machines to tell us of these other lights/sounds/etc, but what they tell us are "recorded events", and not the actual sound/light wave.
Psychologically, concious or subconcious, we seem to make choices about what the sensations we pay attention to.  While we can't change our biology (yet), we can try to change our psychology.
Well, if I can't see it (infared, etc), then I simply don't worry about it (on the other hand, I pretty much ignore everything I can't drink, fuck, or stomp).
Psychologically is a different story. If the universe walks up and hands you data, it probably isn't doing it in a polite manner. Pretending the data is something other than it really is seems to be both stupid and a poor survival trait. For example, let's say a big fucking rock lands on a major city. Astronomers then start trying to tell us (as they have been for years) that this sort of thing is bound to happen all the time, due to a junkyard solar system and the basic rules of orbital mechanics. The rest of the monkeys, though, will line up to hear Jerry Falwell explain that the meteor was God's will, revenge for not marginalizing women and gays.
Guess how many people will listen to the astronomers? You see any research being done on how to divert asteriods? Yeah, me neither.
And lotsa luck changing the psychology of more than a bare handful of monkeys. They'll kill you before they allow that.
Quote from: Doc Howl on February 16, 2007, 02:12:38 PM
Quote from: LMNO on February 16, 2007, 02:04:13 PM
Actually, both.  Biologically, we are only able to see a slim spectrum of light, only hear a slim spectrum of sound, only feel a specific range of pressure, etc.  We can use machines to tell us of these other lights/sounds/etc, but what they tell us are "recorded events", and not the actual sound/light wave.
Psychologically, concious or subconcious, we seem to make choices about what the sensations we pay attention to.  While we can't change our biology (yet), we can try to change our psychology.
Well, if I can't see it (infared, etc), then I simply don't worry about it (on the other hand, I pretty much ignore everything I can't drink, fuck, or stomp).
Psychologically is a different story.  If the universe walks up and hands you data, it probably isn't doing it in a polite manner.  Pretending the data is something  other than it really is seems to be both stupid and a poor survival trait.  For example, let's say a big fucking rock lands on a major city.  Astronomers then start trying to tell us (as they have been for years) that this sort of thing is bound to happen all the time, due to a junkyard solar system and the basic rules of orbital mechanics.  The rest of the monkeys, though, will line up to hear Jerry Falwell explain that the meteor was God's will, revenge for not marginalizing women and gays.
Guess how many people will listen to the astronomers?  You see any research being done on how to divert asteriods?  Yeah, me neither.
And lotsa luck changing the psychology of more than a bare handful of monkeys.  They'll kill you before they allow that.
I can see you're pretty much a pragmatist, I got no problem with that. I suppose the idea is that even if you can't see it, there may be things that might have a tangible effect on you, like gravity. I'm not talking about psychic phenomena, but I am talking about the Weird Shit that happens, and we're not sure
what just happened, or why.
Psychologically, I guess my point is that when the Universe hands you data, sometimes it's
not a conscious decision on how to interpret it, it's an
ingrained one. That's sort of the point, that some people have never even
thought that their filter/map might be one of many possible, and some more useful than others.
However, while science seems to be the best way to describe what the stuff in the Universe is doing, it's not really that helpful when writing a poem, or listening to music. Sure, if you want to describe the motion of the pen, or the firing of neurons, or the acoustic sound waves, it's perfect. But the act of creating, and the act of enjoying a good song are not really condusive to scientific language.
Quote from: LMNO on February 16, 2007, 02:33:38 PM
I can see you're pretty much a pragmatist, I got no problem with that.  I suppose the idea is that even if you can't see it, there may be things that might have a tangible effect on you, like gravity. I'm not talking about psychic phenomena, but I am talking about the Weird Shit that happens, and we're not sure what just happened, or why.
I can't see gravity. I can
observe it, though, and it works every single time.
Quote from: LMNO on February 16, 2007, 02:33:38 PM
Psychologically, I guess my point is that when the Universe hands you data, sometimes it's not a conscious decision on how to interpret it, it's an ingrained one. 
No excuse. We're (nominally) intelligent beings, not cows. "I wasn't thinking" isn't an excuse, it's an indictment.
Quote from: LMNO on February 16, 2007, 02:33:38 PM
That's sort of the point, that some people have never even thought that their filter/map might be one of many possible, and some more useful than others. 
This is because we have crowded people to the point where they don't HAVE to use their brains.
Quote from: LMNO on February 16, 2007, 02:33:38 PM
However, while science seems to be the best way to describe what the stuff in the Universe is doing, it's not really that helpful when writing a poem, or listening to music.  Sure, if you want to describe the motion of the pen, or the firing of neurons, or the acoustic sound waves, it's perfect.  But the act of creating, and the act of enjoying a good song are not really condusive to scientific language.
I don't see why science can't be poetic or artistic. The structure of a rose is even prettier than the surface appearance.
But science was never intended to be an art form. Given this, it is stupid to decide that you don't "prefer" the scientific view of the world because it doesn't appeal to your aesthetic sense. Nor am I impressed by people wasting hours or days fucking about with stupid shit and trying to tell us all that it is somehow "equally valid". One guy acted astounded when I "dismissed" yin/yang as a valid theory.
When did discordians go from being open-minded to being mushy-headed?
QuoteNor am I impressed by people wasting hours or days fucking about with stupid shit and trying to tell us all that it is somehow "equally valid". One guy acted astounded when I "dismissed" yin/yang as a valid theory.
I've already harangued people about their postmodernist inclinations on here, from time to time. I don't mind people thinking about the ideas symbols can represent and if they have any utility or not, or taking apart systems to see if they have any value at all. But postmodernism is unfortunately ingrained in much modern culture now, and it does tend to catch even the most intelligent people out.
Quote from: Doc Howl on February 16, 2007, 02:43:14 PM
One guy acted astounded when I "dismissed" yin/yang as a valid theory.
When did discordians go from being open-minded to being mushy-headed?
Quote from: LHX on February 16, 2007, 03:40:04 AM
you are right from one angle tho
i cant hold something in my hand and say 'this is yin/yang'
i aint gonna hold fast to things i cant readily demonstrate
LAIL
astounded
doc is looking for drama where there is none
Quote from: Cain on February 16, 2007, 02:47:02 PM
QuoteNor am I impressed by people wasting hours or days fucking about with stupid shit and trying to tell us all that it is somehow "equally valid".  One guy acted astounded when I "dismissed" yin/yang as a valid theory.
I've already harangued people about their postmodernist inclinations on here, from time to time.  I don't mind people thinking about the ideas symbols can represent and if they have any utility or not, or taking apart systems to see if they have any value at all.  But postmodernism is unfortunately ingrained in much modern culture now, and it does tend to catch even the most intelligent people out.
This is why I have instructed Efrim and Pedro to kick me in the balls or at least cut off my liquor when I start talking like that.
Postmodernism is fucking stupid. At least dadaism was funny.
Quote from: Doc Howl on February 16, 2007, 02:52:40 PM
Quote from: Cain on February 16, 2007, 02:47:02 PM
QuoteNor am I impressed by people wasting hours or days fucking about with stupid shit and trying to tell us all that it is somehow "equally valid". One guy acted astounded when I "dismissed" yin/yang as a valid theory.
I've already harangued people about their postmodernist inclinations on here, from time to time. I don't mind people thinking about the ideas symbols can represent and if they have any utility or not, or taking apart systems to see if they have any value at all. But postmodernism is unfortunately ingrained in much modern culture now, and it does tend to catch even the most intelligent people out.
This is why I have instructed Efrim and Pedro to kick me in the balls or at least cut off my liquor when I start talking like that.
Postmodernism is fucking stupid. At least dadaism was funny.
If you haven't read How Mumbo Jumbo Conquered the World by Francis Wheen, you should. You'd most certainly like it.
Quote from: Doc Howl on February 16, 2007, 02:43:14 PM
Quote from: LMNO on February 16, 2007, 02:33:38 PM
I can see you're pretty much a pragmatist, I got no problem with that.  I suppose the idea is that even if you can't see it, there may be things that might have a tangible effect on you, like gravity. I'm not talking about psychic phenomena, but I am talking about the Weird Shit that happens, and we're not sure what just happened, or why.
I can't see gravity.  I can observe it, though, and it works every single time.
Agreed.  The point is, what about the things you don't know about yet, and what effects might they be having on you?  That is to say, a person can't assume they know
all the things that are happening around them, or what their effects might be,
QuoteQuote from: LMNO on February 16, 2007, 02:33:38 PM
Psychologically, I guess my point is that when the Universe hands you data, sometimes it's not a conscious decision on how to interpret it, it's an ingrained one. 
No excuse.  We're (nominally) intelligent beings, not cows.  "I wasn't thinking" isn't an excuse, it's an indictment.
Agreed.  However, sometimes you need to point this out to people who have never been exposed to such thoughts.
QuoteQuote from: LMNO on February 16, 2007, 02:33:38 PM
That's sort of the point, that some people have never even thought that their filter/map might be one of many possible, and some more useful than others. 
This is because we have crowded people to the point where they don't HAVE to use their brains.
I'm not sure I follow you.  I'd say that people weren't using their brains a long time before crowding was an issue.
QuoteQuote from: LMNO on February 16, 2007, 02:33:38 PM
However, while science seems to be the best way to describe what the stuff in the Universe is doing, it's not really that helpful when writing a poem, or listening to music.  Sure, if you want to describe the motion of the pen, or the firing of neurons, or the acoustic sound waves, it's perfect.  But the act of creating, and the act of enjoying a good song are not really condusive to scientific language.
I don't see why science can't be poetic or artistic.  The structure of a rose is even prettier than the surface appearance.
Quite true.  I've been studying a bit about quantum physics, and it's glorious.  But that's not what I said.  I didn't say that science cant be artistic, I said that the appreciation of Art isn't
best explained by Science.  
QuoteBut science was never intended to be an art form.  Given this, it is stupid to decide that you don't "prefer" the scientific view of the world because it doesn't appeal to your aesthetic sense. 
Agreed, and I never said otherwise.  I don't see why a person can't see the world scientifically when the situation is best suited for it, and artistically when that map would be better.
QuoteNor am I impressed by people wasting hours or days fucking about with stupid shit and trying to tell us all that it is somehow "equally valid".  One guy acted astounded when I "dismissed" yin/yang as a valid theory.
It depends on the setting, I suppose.  A "Valid Theory" of what?  A valid theory of how some people give meaning to their lives in the universe, and their place in it?  I'd say that
if you wanted to look for personal meaning in this universe, you could do worse than Taoism.  You seem not to care about personal meaning, but rather practical "here and now" solutions; so, you're more interested in Newtonian Physics and Electromagnetism than Taoism.  I ain't got no beef with that.
QuoteWhen did discordians go from being open-minded to being mushy-headed?
Now that's just mean spirited.
Quote from: Buddhist_Monk_Wannabe on February 16, 2007, 03:28:47 AM
Please also forgive me for being a "hit and run". When someone more or less says I love you and want to spend the rest of my life with you, its an event that shakes you up.
Its payment for fixing the computer
srly
Quote from: LHX on February 16, 2007, 02:51:20 PM
Quote from: Doc Howl on February 16, 2007, 02:43:14 PM
One guy acted astounded when I "dismissed" yin/yang as a valid theory.
When did discordians go from being open-minded to being mushy-headed?
Quote from: LHX on February 16, 2007, 03:40:04 AM
you are right from one angle tho
i cant hold something in my hand and say 'this is yin/yang'
i aint gonna hold fast to things i cant readily demonstrate
LAIL
astounded
doc is looking for drama where there is none
Actually, I was talking about your comment "damn yo! you gonna call yin/yang bullshit too?" Shortly before that post.
Please try to maintain some level of intellectual honesty.
Quote from: Cain on February 16, 2007, 02:54:02 PM
Quote from: Doc Howl on February 16, 2007, 02:52:40 PM
Quote from: Cain on February 16, 2007, 02:47:02 PM
QuoteNor am I impressed by people wasting hours or days fucking about with stupid shit and trying to tell us all that it is somehow "equally valid".  One guy acted astounded when I "dismissed" yin/yang as a valid theory.
I've already harangued people about their postmodernist inclinations on here, from time to time.  I don't mind people thinking about the ideas symbols can represent and if they have any utility or not, or taking apart systems to see if they have any value at all.  But postmodernism is unfortunately ingrained in much modern culture now, and it does tend to catch even the most intelligent people out.
This is why I have instructed Efrim and Pedro to kick me in the balls or at least cut off my liquor when I start talking like that.
Postmodernism is fucking stupid.  At least dadaism was funny.
If you haven't read How Mumbo Jumbo Conquered the World by Francis Wheen, you should.  You'd most certainly like it.
Thanks. I'll hit Amazon tonight.
In defense of Taoism:
Rather than a way of explaining what the universe is, it seems to me that it makes only one claim about the external universe: that things tend towards balance.
From there, it makes observations, and suggestions on how a human should act in certain situations.
While you might disagree with the suggestions on how one should act, I'd hardly call that "bullshit".
Quote from: LMNO on February 16, 2007, 02:57:16 PM
Quote from: Doc Howl on February 16, 2007, 02:43:14 PM
Quote from: LMNO on February 16, 2007, 02:33:38 PM
I can see you're pretty much a pragmatist, I got no problem with that.  I suppose the idea is that even if you can't see it, there may be things that might have a tangible effect on you, like gravity. I'm not talking about psychic phenomena, but I am talking about the Weird Shit that happens, and we're not sure what just happened, or why.
I can't see gravity.  I can observe it, though, and it works every single time.
Agreed.  The point is, what about the things you don't know about yet, and what effects might they be having on you?  That is to say, a person can't assume they know all the things that are happening around them, or what their effects might be,
That's okay, because you don't have to.  There is no benefit to knowing that a small rock between here and Mars is exerting a small gravitational effect on you.  There is also no benefit to knowing that a solar flare has raised the radiation you receive by a smidgen.
Quote from: LMNO on February 16, 2007, 02:33:38 PM
Agreed.  However, sometimes you need to point this out to people who have never been exposed to such thoughts.
Why?  They just look at you funny, and go back to chewing their cud.
Quote from: LMNO on February 16, 2007, 02:33:38 PM
I'm not sure I follow you.  I'd say that people weren't using their brains a long time before crowding was an issue.
When you put people in small, survival-oriented groups, they tend to think, because they have no choice.  Unless you deliberately short-circuit that (ie, Survivor), in which case they tend to act in bizarre ways that could be considered insane.
Quote from: LMNO on February 16, 2007, 02:33:38 PM
It depends on the setting, I suppose.  A "Valid Theory" of what?  A valid theory of how some people give meaning to their lives in the universe, and their place in it?  I'd say that if you wanted to look for personal meaning in this universe, you could do worse than Taoism.  You seem not to care about personal meaning, but rather practical "here and now" solutions; so, you're more interested in Newtonian Physics and Electromagnetism than Taoism.  I ain't got no beef with that.
One is a description of the way the universe works.  One is a brand of snake oil.  You decide.
Quote from: LMNO on February 16, 2007, 02:33:38 PMNow that's just mean spirited.
Not really.  Should a person not speak up when they see otherwise intelligent people wander off into navel-gazing?
Quote from: LMNO on February 16, 2007, 03:08:13 PM
In defense of Taoism:
Rather than a way of explaining what the universe is, it seems to me that it makes only one claim about the external universe: that things tend towards balance.
From there, it makes observations, and suggestions on how a human should act in certain situations.
While you might disagree with the suggestions on how one should act, I'd hardly call that "bullshit".
Taosim is the WORST of all religions, because it preaches that you should learn your place and stay in it. It also preaches the "middle of the road" ideology of never trying to test the limits of anything.
It is a fine philosophy for sheep and cowards. Bipeds need not apply.
OK then. It looks as though we understand each other's concepts, even though we probably won't agree very often.
I'm cool with that if you are.
Quote from: LMNO on February 16, 2007, 03:13:21 PM
OK then.  It looks as though we understand each other's concepts, even though we probably won't agree very often.
I'm cool with that if you are.
Sure.
Didn't most of the early Taoists actually oppose the central government, however?
There was a definite revolutionary component in it, at least historically. If you're talking about modern Taoism and wu-wei, however, then you have a point. Wu-wei is a bad piece of reasoning, very bad indeed.
Quote from: Doc Howl on February 16, 2007, 03:01:57 PM
Quote from: LHX on February 16, 2007, 02:51:20 PM
Quote from: Doc Howl on February 16, 2007, 02:43:14 PM
One guy acted astounded when I "dismissed" yin/yang as a valid theory.
When did discordians go from being open-minded to being mushy-headed?
Quote from: LHX on February 16, 2007, 03:40:04 AM
you are right from one angle tho
i cant hold something in my hand and say 'this is yin/yang'
i aint gonna hold fast to things i cant readily demonstrate
LAIL
astounded
doc is looking for drama where there is none
Actually, I was talking about your comment "damn yo! you gonna call yin/yang bullshit too?" Shortly before that post.
Please try to maintain some level of intellectual honesty.
lmfao
youre good
somebody been watching law and order
Quote from: Cain on February 16, 2007, 03:14:58 PM
Didn't most of the early Taoists actually oppose the central government, however?
There was a definite revolutionary component in it, at least historically.  If you're talking about modern Taoism and wu-wei, however, then you have a point. Wu-wei is a bad piece of reasoning, very bad indeed.
Well, you bring up the one saving grace of religion, which is the fact that no two people can agree on any ONE thing about it.  Ask a Taoist to explain his religion's enforced servility, and he'll say, "oh, that's the OTHER Taoism".  
Try that shit with one of these fucked up "neo-Pagans" sometime.  None of them can agree on ANYTHING, and they spend all their time trying to expose each other as being non-"real" pagans.  Presumably the last high-priest standing gets his pick of the gullible college chicks.
Quote from: Doc Howl on February 16, 2007, 03:19:23 PM
Quote from: Cain on February 16, 2007, 03:14:58 PM
Didn't most of the early Taoists actually oppose the central government, however?
There was a definite revolutionary component in it, at least historically. If you're talking about modern Taoism and wu-wei, however, then you have a point. Wu-wei is a bad piece of reasoning, very bad indeed.
Well, you bring up the one saving grace of religion, which is the fact that no two people can agree on any ONE thing about it. Ask a Taoist to explain his religion's enforced servility, and he'll say, "oh, that's the OTHER Taoism".
Try that shit with one of these fucked up "neo-Pagans" sometime. None of them can agree on ANYTHING, and they spend all their time trying to expose each other as being non-"real" pagans. Presumably the last high-priest standing gets his pick of the gullible college chicks.
We have. When Roger gets in touch, ask him about the aborted failure of "MysticWicks". 9 months of our lives we will never get back there....
Quote from: Cain on February 16, 2007, 03:23:36 PM
Quote from: Doc Howl on February 16, 2007, 03:19:23 PM
Quote from: Cain on February 16, 2007, 03:14:58 PM
Didn't most of the early Taoists actually oppose the central government, however?
There was a definite revolutionary component in it, at least historically.  If you're talking about modern Taoism and wu-wei, however, then you have a point. Wu-wei is a bad piece of reasoning, very bad indeed.
Well, you bring up the one saving grace of religion, which is the fact that no two people can agree on any ONE thing about it.  Ask a Taoist to explain his religion's enforced servility, and he'll say, "oh, that's the OTHER Taoism". 
Try that shit with one of these fucked up "neo-Pagans" sometime.  None of them can agree on ANYTHING, and they spend all their time trying to expose each other as being non-"real" pagans.  Presumably the last high-priest standing gets his pick of the gullible college chicks.
We have.  When Roger gets in touch, ask him about the aborted failure of "MysticWicks".  9 months of our lives we will never get back there....
Did you at least get lots of laughs in? I can't see Roger taking that sort of shit seriously.
Fuck, we couldn't even get him to take combat seriously. Fucker was always giggling about something. Of course, that was a long time ago. I understand he's grown grim in his old age. Well, I'll fix that.
Oh, to the end we did. Enough trolling material to last for years, over there. We also found out that Discordians are not very liked by Pagans, which is kinda amusing, in a sad way.
Quote from: Cain on February 16, 2007, 03:29:33 PM
Oh, to the end we did.  Enough trolling material to last for years, over there.  We also found out that Discordians are not very liked by Pagans, which is kinda amusing, in a sad way.
That's not very surprising, when you think about it. After all, Discordians are supposed to "think for yourself, schmuck", and paganism doesn't work when people start thinking for themselves and questioning their ridiculous bullshit.
Pagans are fit only for public ridicule, and not one of them will get my respect until they name me as their God.
Quote from: Doc Howl on February 16, 2007, 03:32:05 PM
Quote from: Cain on February 16, 2007, 03:29:33 PM
Oh, to the end we did. Enough trolling material to last for years, over there. We also found out that Discordians are not very liked by Pagans, which is kinda amusing, in a sad way.
That's not very surprising, when you think about it. After all, Discordians are supposed to "think for yourself, schmuck", and paganism doesn't work when people start thinking for themselves and questioning their ridiculous bullshit.
Pagans are fit only for public ridicule, and not one of them will get my respect until they name me as their God.
Yeah, we came to a similar conclusion. Also that, being social outcasts themselves, they needed someone else to shit on constantly, besides Christians.
It was funny, because we were actually making some progress with a few of them and having a few laughs too. Nothing is as funny as a pagan who asslicks Bush, so we had months of fun in the politics area. But some admins hated us, slammed us the first chance they got, and it all went downhill from there.
Quote from: Cain on February 16, 2007, 03:36:02 PM
Quote from: Doc Howl on February 16, 2007, 03:32:05 PM
Quote from: Cain on February 16, 2007, 03:29:33 PM
Oh, to the end we did.  Enough trolling material to last for years, over there.  We also found out that Discordians are not very liked by Pagans, which is kinda amusing, in a sad way.
That's not very surprising, when you think about it.  After all, Discordians are supposed to "think for yourself, schmuck", and paganism doesn't work when people start thinking for themselves and questioning their ridiculous bullshit.
Pagans are fit only for public ridicule, and not one of them will get my respect until they name me as their God.
Yeah, we came to a similar conclusion.  Also that, being social outcasts themselves, they needed someone else to shit on constantly, besides Christians.
It was funny, because we were actually making some progress with a few of them and having a few laughs too.  Nothing is as funny as a pagan who asslicks Bush, so we had months of fun in the politics area.  But some admins hated us, slammed us the first chance they got, and it all went downhill from there.
Pagans for Bush? :lol:
Strange but true.
Yeah, nothing like that piece of self-loathing.
http://rightwingofthegods.blogspot.com/ if you want a laugh. Several of them post there, more so after Roger started making fun of them.
Quote from: Cain on February 16, 2007, 03:41:30 PM
Yeah, nothing like that piece of self-loathing.
http://rightwingofthegods.blogspot.com/ if you want a laugh.  Several of them post there, more so after Roger started making fun of them.
:|
You know, one day I am just going to pick up a chainsaw, and all of these nightmares will be drowned out by the wonderful engine-revving noise.
"Dan" (aka AmericanMe) and "pawnman" still post over there, if you want some fun.
so is this the general grid you are working off of Doc?
(http://i12.tinypic.com/4h1ehyw.jpg)
Quote from: LHX on February 16, 2007, 03:59:35 PM
so is this the general grid you are working off of Doc?
(http://i12.tinypic.com/4h1ehyw.jpg)
Close enough.
Quote from: Doc Howl on February 16, 2007, 03:32:05 PM
Quote from: Cain on February 16, 2007, 03:29:33 PM
Oh, to the end we did. Enough trolling material to last for years, over there. We also found out that Discordians are not very liked by Pagans, which is kinda amusing, in a sad way.
That's not very surprising, when you think about it. After all, Discordians are supposed to "think for yourself, schmuck", and paganism doesn't work when people start thinking for themselves and questioning their ridiculous bullshit.
Pagans are fit only for public ridicule, and not one of them will get my respect until they name me as their God.
Spoken liek a true fuckin divine spirit.