This is one for the LOTR fans:
http://flyingmoose.org/tolksarc/theories/bombadil.htm
QuoteAt last, the mystery of Tom Bombadil's identity has been solved.
Ready?
Tom Bombadil and the Witch-king of Angmar are the same person.
Full evidence at the link. :eek:
Epileptic trees! :lulz:
Pretty good points though. How do they account for the fact that the Nazgul are invisible, or nearly so? And where does Goldberry fit into this?
Interesting, but it doesn't explain why Tom gave the ring BACK to Frodo (after accepting it, finding it uninteresting, and pulling a few disappearing tricks with it.) If it WAS the Witch - King, he would have taken it and flayed the fellowship alive with dark magics. Or at least given them a fake back and sent them off. (Which has even MORE hillarious implications. Sauron got the ring, then lost the war and faked his own destruction as cover for his TRUE SCHEME.)
I always liked the idea that Bombadil was Iluvatar in disguise.
Truer words were never spoken:
(http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb163/wompcabal/bin/tombombadilforestoffaggotry.jpg)
From that same site:
Quote from: http://flyingmoose.org/tolksarc/theories/twinkies.htmAll golden Twinkies do not glitter,
Not all consumed Twinkies are tossed;
The old that is preserved does not wither,
Their yellow-dyed color is not lost.
In the stomach a fire shall be woken,
A Tums from the bottle shall spring,
Renewed shall be revulsion unbroken,
Hostess cakes again are the thing.
Quote[14:12] <Payne> LALALALA I AM TOM BOMBADIL WELCOME TO MY FOREST OF FAGGOTRY
[14:14] <Cainad> YES
[14:14] <Payne> I want to spend a day as Tom Bombadil now
[14:14] <Payne> like, IRL
[14:14] <Payne> it would require careful planning
"Tim! Tim! Benzedrine!
Hash! Boo! Valvoline!
First! Second Neutral! Park!
High thee hence you lefty narc!"
-The Harvard Lampoon, "Bored of the Rings", Tim Benzedrine's song
"Slender as a speeding freak,
Spaced out groovy tripper.
Oh mush brained maid whose mind decays
With every pill I slip her
Oh mind - blowed fair
Farinah head
Friend of birds and beetles
Oh skinny maid whose finger nails
Are hypodermic needles
Oh tanlged locks and painted bod
Pupils big as eggs.
Oh flower maid who never bathes
Or even shaves her legs
Oh softened mind that wanders
Wherever moon above may lead
Oh how I dig thee Hashberry,
From noose to stinky love - beads!"
-Same, Tim' song to Hashberry
Quote from: Richter on April 17, 2009, 01:59:15 PM
Or at least given them a fake back and sent them off. (Which has even MORE hillarious implications. Sauron got the ring, then lost the war and faked his own destruction as cover for his TRUE SCHEME.)
This fits in with Michael Aquino's theory that the Elves and Numenoreans were villains with good publicity, and that the true heros of Middle Earth were Morgoth and Sauron, who saved the orcs and trolls from their genocidal savagery. Switching the ring bought Sauron time to move to the far eastern stretches of Middle Earth, leaving the fractions of forces he used during the War of the Ring as a vanguard, to seek his escape and that of the vast population of Mordor.
Quote from: Cain on April 17, 2009, 03:18:51 PM
Quote from: Richter on April 17, 2009, 01:59:15 PM
Or at least given them a fake back and sent them off. (Which has even MORE hillarious implications. Sauron got the ring, then lost the war and faked his own destruction as cover for his TRUE SCHEME.)
This fits in with Michael Aquino's theory that the Elves and Numenoreans were villains with good publicity, and that the true heros of Middle Earth were Morgoth and Sauron, who saved the orcs and trolls from their genocidal savagery. Switching the ring bought Sauron time to move to the far eastern stretches of Middle Earth, leaving the fractions of forces he used during the War of the Ring as a vanguard, to seek his escape and that of the vast population of Mordor.
FREE MORDOR!!
Mordor, with it's increasing volcanic activity (the Bikini Atol of the 20 ring's development? Definitely polluted by the sould of the Last Alliance, as in the Dead Marshes) was never going to be a viable long term position. Although Mordor was a natural stronghold (Switzerland from HELL), the harsh conditions would have always kept it weak in consumables, and a logistical nigthmare to support from outside.
Using the Haradrim, Corsairs, and Saurman's Uruk Hai to cover the reduction and relocation of the main forces and population of Mordor, he could have easily struck out east. If they loose, he has no one to pursue him, since Gondor, Rohan and Rivendell all consider him dead. If they win, he leaves them the western shore as their prize.
Even if any left realizes how badly they've been screwed, he has effectively reduced his position to 1 front, with the sea of Rhun providing a natural barrier to any pursuit, leaving him with only 1 front to defend, and a new area to exploit for naturl resources to feed his armies.
David Brin (whose fiction I have never read, but whom I really like as a critic and reviewer) also has something to add:
QuoteAsk yourself: "How would Sauron have described the situation?"
And then: "What might 'really' have happened?"
Now ponder something that comes through even the party-line demonization of a crushed enemy -- this clear-cut and undeniable fact: Sauron's army was the one that included every species and race on Middle Earth, including all the despised colors of humanity, and all the lower classes.
Hmm. Did they all leave their homes and march to war thinking, "Oh, goody, let's go serve an evil Dark Lord"?
Or might they instead have thought they were the "good guys," with a justifiable grievance worth fighting for, rebelling against an ancient, rigid, pyramid-shaped, feudal hierarchy topped by invader-alien elfs and their Numenorean-colonialist human lackeys?
Picture, for a moment, Sauron the Eternal Rebel, relentlessly maligned by the victors of the War of the Ring -- the royalists who control the bards and scribes (and moviemakers). Sauron, champion of the common Middle Earthling! Vanquished but still revered by the innumerable poor and oppressed who sit in their squalid huts, wary of the royal secret police with their magical spy-eyes, yet continuing to whisper stories, secretly dreaming and hoping that someday he will return ... bringing more rings.
To do:
shop up a che guevara t-shirt with Sarumon's face on it
Of course, this also resonates with me because I'm (attempting) to write a fantasy novel where the nominal hero is not only a jerkass, but essentially a fascist as well. I've actually got two ideas for that: one is the one I laid out in the other thread, where the existing political system is actually pretty reasonable and decent, and dickwad hero wants to 'bring back' an imaginary golden age - led by him naturally. And the second will be similar, but instead perhaps told from the eyes of serfs and those who labour at the bottom of such feudal societies, yet are inexplicably portrayed as supporters of the Royalist regimes in such books.
Yeah, I wanna write about Communist peasants.
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/113/297576372_5e32cd5d3c.jpg)
"Help! Help! I'm being repressed!"
Visualize: Sauron = John McCain. :lulz:
That's a more "real world" view of it. I've yet to read of a real army that marched to war "So the dark evil overlord won't eat my soul YET."
IIRC, in "The Sword of Shanarra", by Terry Brooks, the Troll armies serving Brena (the Big Bad), were explained to be serving him out of fealty and respect for Brena's coordination of their tribes.
(Sword of Shanarra being one of my favorite LOTR ripoffs)
Quote from: InCrandible! on April 17, 2009, 03:58:45 PM
To do:
shop up a che guevara t-shirt with Sarumon's face on it
I'll PM you a how - to for GIMP.
Not Saruman though, I intend to Che Guevara, and t - shirt my own face.
Can you PM that to me also?
Quote from: Richter on April 17, 2009, 04:08:13 PM
Visualize: Sauron = John McCain. :lulz:
That's a more "real world" view of it. I've yet to read of a real army that marched to war "So the dark evil overlord won't eat my soul YET."
IIRC, in "The Sword of Shanarra", by Terry Brooks, the Troll armies serving Brena (the Big Bad), were explained to be serving him out of fealty and respect for Brena's coordination of their tribes.
(Sword of Shanarra being one of my favorite LOTR ripoffs)
:x :x :x
I like a few of the Shanara books too, actually. Elfstones especially.
Not the greatest writing, but good stories.
There are enough inconsistencies with the theory that its not really passable, the explanation for the creation of the nazgul (that they were numenorean kings corrupted by the nine rings, fallen under the sway of the one ring, becoming wraithlike and intangible) doesnt really allow for the witch king to have a double identity like bombadil, it is an entertaining hypothesis, its just a bit of a stretch.
Also, as for the Sauron as Rebel idea, I dont know about that either. If Tolkien has a fault its the harsh moral dichotomy in which his universe exists, there is some precedence for neutrality in the books (the dwarves definately, and to a lesser degree some of the elves), but sauron really just represents a corrupting evil. I think there is some argument for Morgoth as an underdog, in the sense that Illuvitar actually acounted for Morgoths disobedience as a way of building up some tension in his song, or whatever.
Although the humans involved in the conflict might be seen as kind of a special case. Mind you, most of the men of the west are not descended from the blood of Numenor at all, the last of it is found in the Rangers, and the Stewards of Gondor, the rest of mankind present in middle earth migrated from the east in the second age. While Gondor, and probably Rohan, generally view Mordor as an absolute evil... Saurons often portrayed as a skilled deciever, and one who can use the ambition of nations to lead them to their ruin (IE. Numenor). So while Sauron is portrayed in the books as being, essentially, evil... its worth noting that he wouldnt necessarily be recieved that way by the nations of the South, and of the East.
(actually, ALL of mankind originally migrated from the east, the numenoreans were just granted special privileges for sucking enough elf-dick, or whatever.)
Quote from: Cramulus on April 17, 2009, 02:02:07 PM
Truer words were never spoken:
(http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb163/wompcabal/bin/tombombadilforestoffaggotry.jpg)
wtf? the word "faggotry" is now a photobucket TOS violation?
THAT'S NEW.
I hate Photobucket.
Just use Imageshack.us ... I've never had a problem with them.
Quote from: Z³ on April 22, 2009, 07:44:20 PM
There are enough inconsistencies with the theory that its not really passable, the explanation for the creation of the nazgul (that they were numenorean kings corrupted by the nine rings, fallen under the sway of the one ring, becoming wraithlike and intangible) doesnt really allow for the witch king to have a double identity like bombadil, it is an entertaining hypothesis, its just a bit of a stretch.
Also, as for the Sauron as Rebel idea, I dont know about that either. If Tolkien has a fault its the harsh moral dichotomy in which his universe exists, there is some precedence for neutrality in the books (the dwarves definately, and to a lesser degree some of the elves), but sauron really just represents a corrupting evil. I think there is some argument for Morgoth as an underdog, in the sense that Illuvitar actually acounted for Morgoths disobedience as a way of building up some tension in his song, or whatever.
Although the humans involved in the conflict might be seen as kind of a special case. Mind you, most of the men of the west are not descended from the blood of Numenor at all, the last of it is found in the Rangers, and the Stewards of Gondor, the rest of mankind present in middle earth migrated from the east in the second age. While Gondor, and probably Rohan, generally view Mordor as an absolute evil... Saurons often portrayed as a skilled deciever, and one who can use the ambition of nations to lead them to their ruin (IE. Numenor). So while Sauron is portrayed in the books as being, essentially, evil... its worth noting that he wouldnt necessarily be recieved that way by the nations of the South, and of the East.
(actually, ALL of mankind originally migrated from the east, the numenoreans were just granted special privileges for sucking enough elf-dick, or whatever.)
You could split hairs pretty endlessly about what the Ringwraith's exact abilities, or HOW MUCH shape they could take. Sauron might have been another possible Bombadil, but it says explicitly later in the Silmarilion, and in LOTR, that he lost the ability to change shape after he took on the appearance of the Dark Lord after the fall of Numenor (A problem which Morgoth also had), and the ability to take form at all after he lsot the One Ring.
The Numenoreans, IIRC, were part elven, descendents of Elrond's twin brother who chose to live mortal lives. As such they were MOSTLY human, but still had some of the wisdom, grace, and long life of the elves. Kind of makes you wonder about Aragorn and Arwen...
Sauron didn't lose the ability to change shape after he took on the appearance of the Dark Lord after the fall of Numenor IIRC, I believe he lost the ability to take on a 'fair form' to fool people with. Bombadil might be considered, by some, a fair form.
I always thought Tom was the anthropomorphic entity of Middle Earth. IIRC he was supposed to be older than Sauron and the first thing that lived in Middle Earth. Since he wore the ring for awhile and it had no effect, I doubt he could be Sauron or a Ring Wraith... or anything equal to or less than Gandalf... since Gandalf was concerned thet Ring might be too powerful even for him. That means that either Tom was from somewhere/thing that was outside of the Rings etc (which seems sensible) or was a being that was over Gandalf... possibly Iluvatar...
Though, I still think he was the Middle Earth version of Gaia.
Quote from: Dr Hoopla on April 22, 2009, 08:22:13 PM
Sauron didn't lose the ability to change shape after he took on the appearance of the Dark Lord after the fall of Numenor IIRC, I believe he lost the ability to take on a 'fair form' to fool people with. Bombadil might be considered, by some, a fair form.
That works too, but again, superceded by his inability to hold a form. The "Necromancer" Gandalf faced in the dark tower in Mirkwood during "The Hobbit", contradicts this. I'll have to retrieve my copies of everythign to properly check. Leln has more detailed knowledge of Tolkein, and better memory overall, I'll throw this thread at her attn.
Quote from: Ratatosk on April 22, 2009, 08:24:39 PM
I always thought Tom was the anthropomorphic entity of Middle Earth. IIRC he was supposed to be older than Sauron and the first thing that lived in Middle Earth. Since he wore the ring for awhile and it had no effect, I doubt he could be Sauron or a Ring Wraith... or anything equal to or less than Gandalf... since Gandalf was concerned thet Ring might be too powerful even for him. That means that either Tom was from somewhere/thing that was outside of the Rings etc (which seems sensible) or was a being that was over Gandalf... possibly Iluvatar...
Though, I still think he was the Middle Earth version of Gaia.
During the Council at Rivendell I think they DID suggest trying to get Tom to take the Ring to Mt. Doom. The idea got shot down when they realized he'd likely forget what he was up to half way.
I like the idea of Tom as Iluvatar on some levels, that he just gets out, enjoys what's happening in the world he made, and randomly shacks up with a hot elf. In other ways it plays into the catch all of "There is a God, and he is a DICK."
Quote from: Richter on April 22, 2009, 08:46:55 PM
Quote from: Ratatosk on April 22, 2009, 08:24:39 PM
I always thought Tom was the anthropomorphic entity of Middle Earth. IIRC he was supposed to be older than Sauron and the first thing that lived in Middle Earth. Since he wore the ring for awhile and it had no effect, I doubt he could be Sauron or a Ring Wraith... or anything equal to or less than Gandalf... since Gandalf was concerned thet Ring might be too powerful even for him. That means that either Tom was from somewhere/thing that was outside of the Rings etc (which seems sensible) or was a being that was over Gandalf... possibly Iluvatar...
Though, I still think he was the Middle Earth version of Gaia.
During the Council at Rivendell I think they DID suggest trying to get Tom to take the Ring to Mt. Doom. The idea got shot down when they realized he'd likely forget what he was up to half way.
I like the idea of Tom as Iluvatar on some levels, that he just gets out, enjoys what's happening in the world he made, and randomly shacks up with a hot elf. In other ways it plays into the catch all of "There is a God, and he is a DICK."
Did they try and get him to take to to Mt. Doom... or did they just talk about giving it to him for safe keeping?
"Iluvatar is busy playing skeeball in New Jersey"
I recall that they were just going to give it to him to keep, not to take anywhere. But they WERE afraid he would misplace it eventually... so the problem wouldn't be solved, just delayed.
Quote from: Dr Hoopla on April 22, 2009, 09:04:46 PM
I recall that they were just going to give it to him to keep, not to take anywhere. But they WERE afraid he would misplace it eventually... so the problem wouldn't be solved, just delayed.
Yeah, that's what I thought... like the ring (and everything surrounding it) were so completely inconsequential to Tom that he couldn't be arsed to remember it. That supports, I think, the idea that he was Middle Earth (and unaffected by what happens to the people in it) or he was some very powerful being, well beyond the level of Gandalf, Saruman etc.
Then again, it could just be a random character that Tolkien threw in there for kicks.
Both, I think.
Quote from: Ratatosk on April 22, 2009, 09:13:01 PM
Quote from: Dr Hoopla on April 22, 2009, 09:04:46 PM
I recall that they were just going to give it to him to keep, not to take anywhere. But they WERE afraid he would misplace it eventually... so the problem wouldn't be solved, just delayed.
Yeah, that's what I thought... like the ring (and everything surrounding it) were so completely inconsequential to Tom that he couldn't be arsed to remember it. That supports, I think, the idea that he was Middle Earth (and unaffected by what happens to the people in it) or he was some very powerful being, well beyond the level of Gandalf, Saruman etc.
Then again, it could just be a random character that Tolkien threw in there for kicks.
From what I remember, there were a couple reasons the council of Elrond didn't send the ring to Bombadil for safe keeping. One was that yes, he might forget why he was supposed to keep it. The ring didn't work since it "ha[d] no power over him," so he'd never fully understand what all the fuss was about. Another issue was mobility. He could have concealed the ring for a while, but not forever. If Sauron's forces continued to grow, they would eventually swamp Middle Earth and Sauron would have been able to locate the ring. "Gee, the only place I haven't searched is in this dude's lily pond. Fetch the goblin grenades." I'm pretty sure that either Gandalf or Elrond says that if that happened, Bombadil would hold out for a time, and then fall, last as he was first, and true darkness would come to Middle Earth (sorry, crappy paraphrase). I think the council also decided that giving the ring to Bombadil would make it impossible to destroy it. They had to act before Sauron had fortified Mordor too much for them to get to Mount Doom.
I haven't read the Silmarillion in years, so I don't recall the timeline for the Maiar. But if Bombadil was one of the most primal natural/life forces in the hierarchy, he was probably older and in some ways stronger than they were. Then again, there's the tradeoff with brute strength versus mobility. The wizards (who as I recall were Maiar of varying rank) weren't as all-out powerful, but they moved freely and exerted influence over comparatively massive swaths of territory. Bombadil could take on just about anything that wandered into his yard, but he'd never step beyond it. I need to check
The Fellowship of the Ring to see if he ever talks about his borders changing in response to humans, hobbits etc.
The arguments about Tom being the Witch King seemed pretty patched together, but I'd need to reread it when I'm not as tired to comment in any depth. I need to go sleep and dig out the books in the morning. On a side note, fuck you all, now I feel compelled to reread everything.
Tom Bombadil was a filthy fucking hippie. He should have been handed over to the fucking Nazgul.
Fucking draft-dodgers.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 23, 2009, 02:40:10 AM
Tom Bombadil was a filthy fucking hippie. He should have been handed over to the fucking Nazgul.
Fucking draft-dodgers.
:lol:
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 23, 2009, 02:40:10 AM
Tom Bombadil was a filthy fucking hippie. He should have been handed over to the fucking Nazgul.
Fucking draft-dodgers.
:spittake:
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 23, 2009, 02:40:10 AM
Tom Bombadil was a filthy fucking hippie. He should have been handed over to the fucking Nazgul.
Fucking draft-dodgers.
Fairly certain JRR didn't mdoel the Shire after Canada, but the implciations are HILLARIOUS.
:wade:
I read somewhere that the Shire was based on Kentucky to some degree. No troll.
It pretty much can relate to any rural area where the people predominately work the land for most of the day and spend the rest of the day drinking and songing. So yeah, Kentucky makes sense.
A lot of the surnames for Hobbits were taken from rural Kentucky. Underhill, Boffin, etc.
As far as writers who had their work / POV affected by WWI / WWII, it's interesting that Tolkein held to the concept of idealized pastoral living. He gets downright T.S. Elliot AFA Mordor / Isengard / Scoured Shire
I thought he was "Green Man".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Man