Principia Discordia

Alright, hit me with it.

I voted for the first one, though it's phrased a little too "bottle half empty" for my taste.  The "bottle half full" perspective would be that it is probably more effective and possible to instill large scale change by affecting local scale change.  That is, of course, assuming there are other localized efforts going on.  I think the cumulative effect of many local operations could have a larger net impact then taking a swing at the macro-Machine. 

The cumulative effect of many local operations is a swing at the macro-Machine.

I don't see any way around it.

It ends up being a swing at the macro-Machine.  But if the focus, aim, and intent are based upon the macro-Machine, your actions are likely to be compromised and will most likely be inefficient.  Local efforts only work when they are immersed and informed by the local culture and environment.  If you are shaping your local efforts based on aims for the macro-Machine, you are likely to miss intricate and vital details that would maximize the impact of your local actions. 

Put me down for "assisting the Lemmings", Marlin Perkins-style.

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on February 21, 2011, 04:20:19 PM
It ends up being a swing at the macro-Machine.  But if the focus, aim, and intent are based upon the macro-Machine, your actions are likely to be compromised and will most likely be inefficient.  Local efforts only work when they are immersed and informed by the local culture and environment.  If you are shaping your local efforts based on aims for the macro-Machine, you are likely to miss intricate and vital details that would maximize the impact of your local actions. 

:cn:

I don't see why you can't do both.  Let me offer up an example.  There's little point me going outside and putting up posters in an effort to spread a message of "Think For Yourself, Schmuck!" today - it feels like a drop in the ocean.

However, if it were a coordinated action/message over a dozen cities in North America and Europe, etc.. I could write a local events-magazine (the path from their offices to the nearest subway station would also feature the posters), pointing out that they're also mysteriously showing up in Amsterdam, New York and Australia.  Now these are still tiny drops, but they start to look bigger and have much more potential to capture attention to the message.

Quote from: Captain Utopia on February 21, 2011, 04:37:02 PM

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on February 21, 2011, 04:20:19 PM
It ends up being a swing at the macro-Machine.  But if the focus, aim, and intent are based upon the macro-Machine, your actions are likely to be compromised and will most likely be inefficient.  Local efforts only work when they are immersed and informed by the local culture and environment.  If you are shaping your local efforts based on aims for the macro-Machine, you are likely to miss intricate and vital details that would maximize the impact of your local actions. 

:cn:

I don't see why you can't do both.  Let me offer up an example.  There's little point me going outside and putting up posters in an effort to spread a message of "Think For Yourself, Schmuck!" today - it feels like a drop in the ocean.

However, if it were a coordinated action/message over a dozen cities in North America and Europe, etc.. I could write a local events-magazine (the path from their offices to the nearest subway station would also feature the posters), pointing out that they're also mysteriously showing up in Amsterdam, New York and Australia.  Now these are still tiny drops, but they start to look bigger and have much more potential to capture attention to the message.

AH AM THINKING FOR MYSELF, JUST LIKE RUSH SAID!
\
:mullet:

I'm not only more interested in making things worse, I'm more ACTIVE in it.

I hate monkeys but I also want to help monkeys stand up. If only for the company.

Quote from: Hover Cat on February 21, 2011, 07:30:47 PM
I hate monkeys but I also want to help monkeys stand up. If only for the company.

Also, because monkeys hitting their heads on things are funny.

While some might argue that it would be nice if we changed the world for the better (and I've said before that I think it's important for people to try in spite of the futility of it; I just never explained why I think it's important), I've come to the conclusion that not only is The Word a zero-sum game, it's a decreasing-sum game. this means that if I want a piece of the pie, it's not good enough to go take someone else's piece of the pie. I have to go take three other peoples' pieces of pie for it to equal out to me having gotten one piece. This rising tide is not lifting all ships because the ships are fastened to the seafloor with a finite length of strong chain. The more people that blissfully sit around on the deck of their own personal ship distracted by shit like "hope" and "change" (hey, sound familiar?), the easier it is for me to go around and steal the lifeboats. And while you drown, I'll be busy building a metaphorical raft with your metaphorical lifeboats and reinventing myself as a metaphorical Dennis Hopper in Waterworld, all unrepentantly self-centered (because let's face it, most of what we call "evil" or "bad" is just that - self-centered) and having a goddamn good time with it.

Enjoy your swim.

Quote from: Captain Utopia on February 21, 2011, 04:37:02 PM

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on February 21, 2011, 04:20:19 PM
It ends up being a swing at the macro-Machine.  But if the focus, aim, and intent are based upon the macro-Machine, your actions are likely to be compromised and will most likely be inefficient.  Local efforts only work when they are immersed and informed by the local culture and environment.  If you are shaping your local efforts based on aims for the macro-Machine, you are likely to miss intricate and vital details that would maximize the impact of your local actions. 

:cn:

I don't see why you can't do both.  Let me offer up an example.  There's little point me going outside and putting up posters in an effort to spread a message of "Think For Yourself, Schmuck!" today - it feels like a drop in the ocean.

However, if it were a coordinated action/message over a dozen cities in North America and Europe, etc.. I could write a local events-magazine (the path from their offices to the nearest subway station would also feature the posters), pointing out that they're also mysteriously showing up in Amsterdam, New York and Australia.  Now these are still tiny drops, but they start to look bigger and have much more potential to capture attention to the message.

It's a massive waste of capacity.  Messages have to be culturally relevant.  And I'm not just talking about cultures between different countries.  There are different cultures within countries.  Hell, you can have vastly different cultures within states.  You can't deliver the same message to 12 different locations without adapting the message to those 12 different locations.  That would entail a massive amount of research and effort.  And if you don't do that, your message will not resonate and it will fail.

That is why I say, it is more effective for local efforts to focus on local cultures and environments.  There may perhaps be some minor cumulative effects, but that should not be the goal or the driver.  Because, again, it is a waste of time and energy that could be focused on your locality. 

You cannot ever hope to change the Machine.  You can't really hope to change it's course.  The best you can hope for is to make some tiny changes to your cog in the machine and that it makes that portion of the Machine work a little differently.  Maybe, just maybe, enough of those cogs line up and work to change the trajectory of The Machine by a fraction of a millimeter.

I'm not sure that individuals can change the machine.

I do think that groups of people can change the machine, though it often doesn't change in the way they hoped.

I'm using a phone so I can't see the options. However right now my aim is to try to see how efficiently we can produce systems in schools that let kids maximize their own autonomy, and really follow their passions, through language education.

So I'll get back to you on this one in about two years.

Quote from: Rip City Hustle on February 21, 2011, 08:17:58 PM
While some might argue that it would be nice if we changed the world for the better (and I've said before that I think it's important for people to try in spite of the futility of it; I just never explained why I think it's important), I've come to the conclusion that not only is The Word a zero-sum game, it's a decreasing-sum game. this means that if I want a piece of the pie, it's not good enough to go take someone else's piece of the pie. I have to go take three other peoples' pieces of pie for it to equal out to me having gotten one piece. This rising tide is not lifting all ships because the ships are fastened to the seafloor with a finite length of strong chain. The more people that blissfully sit around on the deck of their own personal ship distracted by shit like "hope" and "change" (hey, sound familiar?), the easier it is for me to go around and steal the lifeboats. And while you drown, I'll be busy building a metaphorical raft with your metaphorical lifeboats and reinventing myself as a metaphorical Dennis Hopper in Waterworld, all unrepentantly self-centered (because let's face it, most of what we call "evil" or "bad" is just that - self-centered) and having a goddamn good time with it.

Enjoy your swim.

Umm. Who knew I had so much in common with ECH? Goddamn my Hobbesian tendencies.

Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on February 21, 2011, 03:57:11 PM
I voted for the first one, though it's phrased a little too "bottle half empty" for my taste.  The "bottle half full" perspective would be that it is probably more effective and possible to instill large scale change by affecting local scale change.  That is, of course, assuming there are other localized efforts going on.  I think the cumulative effect of many local operations could have a larger net impact then taking a swing at the macro-Machine. 

Agreed. It's impractical to take a swing at the macro-Machine. It's built to resist such efforts, and it does it's job well. You have to make minor, day to day changes. The sum of which create a small, but notable effect in the macro, over the course of a lifetime or so.

What I find interesting is that no one has yet picked "I just don't give a shit".

Quote from: Sister Fracture on February 22, 2011, 03:31:33 PM
What I find interesting is that no one has yet picked "I just don't give a shit".

I gave enough of a shit to say "I don't give a shit" I suspect that is more shit giving than everyone who doesn't give shit wanted to give.

Quote from: Sister Fracture on February 22, 2011, 03:31:33 PM
What I find interesting is that no one has yet picked "I just don't give a shit".

Discordians tend to give a shit.  What they give that shit for is usually wildly inappropriate, but still, shit is given.

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 22, 2011, 03:48:55 PM

Quote from: Sister Fracture on February 22, 2011, 03:31:33 PM
What I find interesting is that no one has yet picked "I just don't give a shit".

Discordians tend to give a shit.  What they give that shit for is usually wildly inappropriate, but still, shit is given.

Inappropriate or not, it's still better than apathy. :)

So of course someone had to be all edgy and vote for not giving a shit.   :lulz:

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 22, 2011, 04:00:19 PM
So of course someone had to be all edgy and vote for not giving a shit.   :lulz:

I was doing it ironically. 8)

Quote from: Canis latrans eques on February 22, 2011, 04:02:41 PM

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 22, 2011, 04:00:19 PM
So of course someone had to be all edgy and vote for not giving a shit.   :lulz:

I was doing it ironically. 8)

HIPSTER!
\
:cheney:

I don't want to make things worse, I want to make things /weirder/.

But yeah, The Machine. Isn't THAT a hobgoblin of a metaphor! Who started that little piece of language anyway, not so much in reference to a mechanical device but to a metaphor for society? And why is it driving car? I certainly don't think about The Machine on a day to day basis, and even when I consider Global Humanity as a Superorganism much like an Ant Colony, social parasites and all, it doesn't seem all that mechanical. Sure, there are /mechanisms/, but they're spread out over the whole of the animal, like some kind of CybOrg. It's like those creatures from "They're Made out of Meat", except instead of a meat outside with an electron plasma brain, it's the opposite. In comparison, an ant colony is the pinnacle of efficiency. No, it's no machine, if superorganism it be, it's a hulking flesh mass with a bit of metal here and there, like a tumor train on a metal track. It's a flesh golem, a lurching horror, but also a Portugese Man'o'War, a coral reef. Something beautiful there, just as it is ugly.

But a Machine? No. Too messy for that.

Quote from: ϗ on February 23, 2011, 01:48:08 AM
I don't want to make things worse, I want to make things /weirder/.

But yeah, The Machine. Isn't THAT a hobgoblin of a metaphor! Who started that little piece of language anyway, not so much in reference to a mechanical device but to a metaphor for society?

I think it was me, in 2003.   :sad:

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 23, 2011, 01:58:12 AM

Quote from: ϗ on February 23, 2011, 01:48:08 AM
I don't want to make things worse, I want to make things /weirder/.

But yeah, The Machine. Isn't THAT a hobgoblin of a metaphor! Who started that little piece of language anyway, not so much in reference to a mechanical device but to a metaphor for society?

I think it was me, in 2003.   :sad:

Aww, I didn't mean it in a deprecatory way. I just feel like every now and then, we outgrow our metaphors, they don't quite fit anymore, or they get overused to the point where I don't quite even know what they mean anymore. I admit, I had to think for five minutes about the poll because I just couldn't figure out where I stood on the issue. Because, somewhere along the line, I got confused about the nature of The Machine, sorta like when someone says the same word over and over and it stops sounding like a word.

Didn't mean it in a mean way, Roger. Guess this is why I've been keeping my mouth shut recently, cause every time I open it stupid shit pops out.

Actually, I couldn't agree more. It's still a useful metaphor, just not for ME.

Quote from: ϗ on February 23, 2011, 02:15:19 AM

Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 23, 2011, 01:58:12 AM

Quote from: ϗ on February 23, 2011, 01:48:08 AM
I don't want to make things worse, I want to make things /weirder/.

But yeah, The Machine. Isn't THAT a hobgoblin of a metaphor! Who started that little piece of language anyway, not so much in reference to a mechanical device but to a metaphor for society?

I think it was me, in 2003.   :sad:

Aww, I didn't mean it in a deprecatory way. I just feel like every now and then, we outgrow our metaphors, they don't quite fit anymore, or they get overused to the point where I don't quite even know what they mean anymore. I admit, I had to think for five minutes about the poll because I just couldn't figure out where I stood on the issue. Because, somewhere along the line, I got confused about the nature of The Machine, sorta like when someone says the same word over and over and it stops sounding like a word.

Didn't mean it in a mean way, Roger. Guess this is why I've been keeping my mouth shut recently, cause every time I open it stupid shit pops out.

What?  No.

I still think it applies.  I was just thinking back on 8 years in this pestilential dump...When I could have been doing something useful, like shoving old people onto icebergs.

Quote from: Rip City Hustle on February 21, 2011, 08:17:58 PM
While some might argue that it would be nice if we changed the world for the better (and I've said before that I think it's important for people to try in spite of the futility of it; I just never explained why I think it's important), I've come to the conclusion that not only is The Word a zero-sum game, it's a decreasing-sum game. this means that if I want a piece of the pie, it's not good enough to go take someone else's piece of the pie. I have to go take three other peoples' pieces of pie for it to equal out to me having gotten one piece. This rising tide is not lifting all ships because the ships are fastened to the seafloor with a finite length of strong chain. The more people that blissfully sit around on the deck of their own personal ship distracted by shit like "hope" and "change" (hey, sound familiar?), the easier it is for me to go around and steal the lifeboats. And while you drown, I'll be busy building a metaphorical raft with your metaphorical lifeboats and reinventing myself as a metaphorical Dennis Hopper in Waterworld, all unrepentantly self-centered (because let's face it, most of what we call "evil" or "bad" is just that - self-centered) and having a goddamn good time with it.

Enjoy your swim.

Ayn, is that you?

Absolutely not.

I would never try to frame my behavior as virtuous.

Quote from: Rip City Hustle on February 23, 2011, 04:30:02 PM
I would never try to frame my behavior as virtuous.

Agree. I'm a horrible, selfish human being.

Point (though jocular) conceded.