Derrived from this thread: http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php/topic,31878.0.html which started to go off-course into a discussion about manipulation which got me thinking about some stuff not directly related to the concepts of labeling and chunking so I felt it deserved its own thread instead of jacking that one off in a different direction.
So, to pick up: manipulation is such a subjective word and concept, right? I mean what you define as "coercive" may not be to others.
I dated a guy who accused a
lot of people of trying to "manipulate" him and actually once told me he considers himself a veritable expert on the subject of deducing people's intent since he'd been to years worth of therapy that trained him to be acutely aware of people's coercive tactics. Yet, he's an admitted proponent of the Seduction Society/Pickup Artist techniques which he sees as "self-marketing," a harmless way of maximizing the efficiency of your influence with people to increase your probability of desirable outcomes with them. Sounds perfectly reasonable, right?
Okay, I once saw him send this link to a friend: http://www.attractology.com/articles/inner-game/cat-string-theory/
Here's more off that site: http://www.attractology.com/2010/03/engagedisengagereengage-edr-technique/
and: http://www.attractology.com/2010/03/call/
This, in particular, bothers me:
Quote
5) Whatever story you go into, try somehow incorporating her into it, disqualifying her (if possible) during the story and later try to make her qualify herself to you. Not as much as you would do in person but just a small little disqualification could be thrown in there
And how different is that from The Rules (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rules) of the late 90s?
Parodied on SNL ("Get the ring!"): http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/the-rules-show/1354349
So what say you? Isn't this the very definition of being manipulative (as we've come to understand the negative connotation)? Or is this stuff (as my ex understands it) a harmless/necessary part of being effective socially?
I think that it's almost entirely a marketing ploy to sell books to emotionally retarded people.
ATTN, MEN THAT WANT TO PICK UP WOMEN:
1. Be nice.
2. Be honest.
3. Remember that you are talking to a human being. That's the thing behind the boobs.
4. Make her laugh.
5. See #3.
ATTN, WOMEN THAT ARE TRYING TO PICK UP MEN:
1. We're kinda dumb about this shit, you have to spell things out. In small words.
2. Make us laugh. This is more important than looks.
3. Smile. We fucking love it when you smile.
4. Remember that you are talking to a human being.
5. Be nice.
(In neither gender's case does "be nice" equal "be a doormat". It means be pleasant.)
There is no need for manipulation. There is no need for "seduction" or "pickup artistry". Unless you're a complete fucking sociopath.
Quote from: Nigel on March 10, 2012, 12:12:12 AM
I think that it's almost entirely a marketing ploy to sell books to emotionally retarded people.
Also, this.
Didn't the tard who owned CoG write one of those?
I want to talk about some issues in my job regarding manipulaion but first ill address the PUA thing. I may already have talked about this but I got really into the whole 'pick up artist' thing starting university. It was the first thing I read that was a guide to manipulating people (in this case, women).
It did me a lot of good, actually, because i got a few key things from it which were shrouded in pretty wanky language bit boiled down to
- be confident (inner game, limiting beliefs)
- put your best foot forward (outer game/demonstrating value)
It also was the first thing I'd read that killed off a few fallacies like 'women are after love and men are after sex'.
Ironically, considering the book is about how to manipulate, it did a job on pulling me into that scene by playing on all those 'nice guy who's tired of the friend zone' narratives that were already buzzing in my head.
I'm nothing like a 'PUA' now, nor do I see it as remotely desirable. I've seen some of the techniques work and generally have felt like I'd sooner just put up with getting laid a whole lot less that imitate the kind of asshole I see succeeding with those methods.
But I would like to digress...
My current job involves working with primary school children. A teachers job is largely manipulation, albeit a more altruistic kind. We want a kid to learn, if they want to or not. You can use;
Parallel acknowledgement: tell the kid beside the naughty one what they're doing well to cue appropriate behaviour.
Pavlovian Conditioning: positive reenforcement for desirable behaviour. Negative reinforcement for undesirable behaviour.
Offering a choice in order to give an illusion of autonomy.
So I have an interest in what manipulation is and when it's justified.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 10, 2012, 03:42:31 AM
There is no need for manipulation. There is no need for "seduction" or "pickup artistry". Unless you're a complete fucking sociopath.
Well said.
Also!
Quote from: Placid Dingo on March 10, 2012, 01:22:03 PM
My current job involves working with primary school children. A teachers job is largely manipulation, albeit a more altruistic kind. We want a kid to learn, if they want to or not.
This is kind of interesting. I've always viewed manipulation has having heavy negative implications, but this example is a good one of when there is obvious manipulation, but for something that can easily be seen as good.
I find manipulation useful and necessary in the workplace, occasionally. I find it absurd and contemptible when dating someone.
For example, in a corporate environment there are sometimes politics that get in the way of what I believe to be the best solution to a problem. In that situation, I generally find a way to manipulate the situation to get others to agree with that solution... it may be getting them on my side with point A, then using point A as a foundation for my solution. Other times, I'll propose the solution to someone with more political power in a way that allows them to promote the position as though its their idea.
I think humans manipulate people, conversations and situations all the time, often without even thinking about it.
Intentionally using it on a person you're dating is, IMO, dishonest and a good sign that the relationship will fail.
I'd say manipulation occurs when you inject a layer of abstraction without being obviously persuasive.
I play poker and pool for money. It's "betting" until I start manipulating, and then it's gambling. From time to time it borders on "conning", but that's got such an ugly sound to it.
A couple examples:
Controlling table image is a big part of poker, but I wouldn't call it manipulative per se. If I play very few hands, bet them aggressively, my image will let me bluff more effectively. Trying to get people to think something that's not always correct is just textbook though.
If I spot a player who wants people to know how good they are, that's one place where I manipulate. I'll play a lot of hands and make shitty bets whenever I can afford to. It will look like I'm going for a loose table image. When my dumb fucking luck wins a few pots against the target player's good play, though, it will feel like they've been slapped in the face. Duping someone into thinking the wrong thing, allows you to trip them up here and there. Pissing them off so they're not doing any thinking, means they'll trip over their own feet trying to get at you.
Same concept applies to pool. There's the known hustle of hiding your skill so your opponent thinks they have a chance. There's the lesser-known manipulation of setting up situations that make your shots look easy, their shots look hard, and the whole thing look like luck. "I can" is a reason to try again. "I could've if only..." is a compulsion to bleed money. A better gambler can often take money from a better player like this. A better gambler/better player can sink the fucking hook in a fish like this.
If you're only portraying yourself in a calculated way, it's not necessarily manipulation. If you're injecting emotions below the detection of another person, it is. (and some assholes get a real kick out of it)
Personally, it frightens me. I'm no good at these games or controlling anything because
1. I can't read people's intent.
2. I could never get away with pulling some control shit cause I can't "blur the edges" of acceptability for myself unless I'm in danger or there's a damned righteous reason.
3. My conscious is on a constant loop of asking me: "do you know what the FUCK you're talking about here? No? Then you're not controling ANYthing. Sit the fuck down and shut the fuck up!"
I've told lies to cover my ass in scary or desperate situations before but the idea of the people I meet...some of them being "moles" to trick me....some of their responses, behaviours and reactions to me--our friendships and relationships being well-crafted series of routines and subroutines, use of psycho/medical submission techniques and other Neuro-linguistic Programming tools...it scares me because it means they aren't invested in my well-being and happiness the way I am them, they're invested in pulling my strings to elicit my affection-responses towards them...AND I CAN'T TELL WHO THEY ARE UNTIL IT'S TOO LATE.
Yes, I think you have to be a little bit cold (a. sociopathic or b. narcissistic) to use these techniques to "manage" the people in your life who have let you in. To behave in ways intended to be frustrating to the desires of someone who likes you to make it easier for yourself to cultivate a "supply" of their adoration instead of accepting that which they'd offer naturally.
For me: it's pretty close to what the Good Dok said:
1. Be nice
2. Make me laugh
3. Keep yourself clean and reasonably looked after.
4. behave with as much intelligence as you have at your disposal
5. be nice to others--If you scream at the waitress for not bringing extra Ranch dressing, it's our last date.
6. Show you are making an effort to entertain me and that it's really no problem. You like me and want to show me stuff, right?
I will:
1. be nice
2. laugh maniacally at everything because I'm easily amused.
3. not even see your blemishes you're all nervous about. I'm not terribly aware of such things
4. keep up with you on many subjects and show off my smarty-panceness so you know you scored a clever one
5. get warm-fuzzies when you hold open the door for that mom with the baby carrier..i just won't mention it.
6. Make it clear whether I'm entertained or not and come up with ideas or end the date if I'm not.
Quote from: navkat on March 10, 2012, 08:31:14 PM
5. be nice to others--If you scream at the waitress for not bringing extra Ranch dressing, it's our last date.
Yeah, that. Right there.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 10, 2012, 08:33:35 PM
Quote from: navkat on March 10, 2012, 08:31:14 PM
5. be nice to others--If you scream at the waitress for not bringing extra Ranch dressing, it's our last date.
Yeah, that. Right there.
Thirded. I
totally judge people on how nice they are to "the help", whether it's a fancy restaurant or a Taco Bell drive through. If you're rude to the drive-through girl, as far as I'm concerned you have established yourself as being less than human and getting dropped off the Marqham into 2 AM freeway freight traffic is too good for you.
Like so:
(http://johnochwat.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/marquam_bridge.jpeg?w=500)
Note to outsiders: that bridge/interchange arrangement isn't strictly necessary in an engineering sense, but the more confused Californians we can feed to the bridges the fewer of us get chosen.
Quote from: Fuck You One-Eye on March 11, 2012, 12:05:50 AM
Note to outsiders: that bridge/interchange arrangement isn't strictly necessary in an engineering sense, but the more confused Californians we can feed to the bridges the fewer of us get chosen.
Holy fuck, that's real??? Looked at it on my phone and just assumed it was some macabre illustration. Reality's just running up the score at this point.
Quote from: Nigel on March 10, 2012, 09:19:57 PM
Like so:
(http://johnochwat.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/marquam_bridge.jpeg?w=500)
It sings.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 11, 2012, 12:29:35 AM
Quote from: Nigel on March 10, 2012, 09:19:57 PM
Like so:
(http://johnochwat.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/marquam_bridge.jpeg?w=500)
It sings.
I am fucking terrified of the bridges.
I'm the girl driving 10 mph below the speed limit and staying in the middle lane so I can read the signs and make sure I don't make any mistakes. Then, I will invariably figure out where I need to be, drop it down to 5th, speeeeeed waaaaay the fuck up and aggressively get in the correct lane before it's too late. You will shit yourself a little and go "WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS CRAZY BITCH DOING?!?"
Ha ha.
That "EDR" and "when to call, what to say" stuff doesn't read like manipulation to me. It reads like a remedial course in social interaction for stupid guys who are having problems because they act starving dogs who want to grab a tit like a football and run. :x
Quote from: navkat on March 11, 2012, 01:37:59 AM
I'm the girl driving 10 mph below the speed limit and staying in the middle lane so I can read the signs and make sure I don't make any mistakes. Then, I will invariably figure out where I need to be, drop it down to 5th, speeeeeed waaaaay the fuck up and aggressively get in the correct lane before it's too late. You will shit yourself a little and go "WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS CRAZY BITCH DOING?!?"
Ha ha.
All the PDX hippies do that. It doesn't keep them from being eaten by carnivorous bridges and it won't help you either.
Though it WILL make me add you to "the list".
ECH,
has no use for people who don't realize that speed limits are a minimum, not a maximum.
Quote from: navkat on March 11, 2012, 01:37:59 AM
I'm the girl driving 10 mph below the speed limit and staying in the middle lane so I can read the signs and make sure I don't make any mistakes. Then, I will invariably figure out where I need to be, drop it down to 5th, speeeeeed waaaaay the fuck up and aggressively get in the correct lane before it's too late. You will shit yourself a little and go "WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS CRAZY BITCH DOING?!?"
Ha ha.
I fucking hate people that do that. Even when I am driving someplace I don't know, I drive the speed limit, at a minimum, and I have shitty ass distance vision so I won't be able read the signs as soon as the rest of you guys.
Quote from: Guru Coyote on March 11, 2012, 05:31:52 AM
Quote from: navkat on March 11, 2012, 01:37:59 AM
I'm the girl driving 10 mph below the speed limit and staying in the middle lane so I can read the signs and make sure I don't make any mistakes. Then, I will invariably figure out where I need to be, drop it down to 5th, speeeeeed waaaaay the fuck up and aggressively get in the correct lane before it's too late. You will shit yourself a little and go "WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS CRAZY BITCH DOING?!?"
Ha ha.
I fucking hate people that do that. Even when I am driving someplace I don't know, I drive the speed limit, at a minimum, and I have shitty ass distance vision so I won't be able read the signs as soon as the rest of you guys.
The good news is that the highway signage is currently being replaced with a typeface (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/12/magazine/12fonts-t.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all) designed specifically to withstand things like reflective glare in the fog and still remain legible.
Hopefully this will improve the chances of you making it out to Portland—you missed a good time with Alty and an epic house party.
Dammit, I don't want them to make the signs readable. Next thing you know they'll be installing streetlights that actually illuminate things.
Quote from: Guru Coyote on March 11, 2012, 01:28:35 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 11, 2012, 12:29:35 AM
Quote from: Nigel on March 10, 2012, 09:19:57 PM
Like so:
(http://johnochwat.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/marquam_bridge.jpeg?w=500)
It sings.
I am fucking terrified of the bridges.
Imagine trying to walk across the motherfuckers.
Quote from: Fuck You One-Eye on March 11, 2012, 12:36:42 PM
Dammit, I don't want them to make the signs readable. Next thing you know they'll be installing streetlights that actually illuminate things.
:lulz: Now you're just crazy talking.
Another thing that our bridges have a lot of is ghost ramps.
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_LD3KxbxjJNU/SvcZZedRuOI/AAAAAAAABdU/9TBHiYMrBH8/S570/013.JPG)
Here's what they look like from the topside:
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_LD3KxbxjJNU/SvcZGT8uSsI/AAAAAAAABdM/3dYZFSFZnQg/S570/017.JPG)
Those signs look an awful lot like Trebuchet...
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on March 11, 2012, 05:25:49 PM
Those signs look an awful lot like Trebuchet...
They are. Just not in the way you expect.
Quote from: Nigel on March 11, 2012, 07:56:46 PM
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on March 11, 2012, 05:25:49 PM
Those signs look an awful lot like Trebuchet...
They are. Just not in the way you expect.
I would have been very disappointed in this board if no one went for that joke.
Quote from: Nigel on March 11, 2012, 08:47:58 PM
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on March 11, 2012, 08:38:56 PM
Quote from: Nigel on March 11, 2012, 07:56:46 PM
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on March 11, 2012, 05:25:49 PM
Those signs look an awful lot like Trebuchet...
They are. Just not in the way you expect.
I would have been very disappointed in this board if no one went for that joke.
What joke?
(http://www.real-world-physics-problems.com/images/trebuchet.jpg)
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on March 11, 2012, 09:38:47 PM
Quote from: Nigel on March 11, 2012, 08:47:58 PM
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on March 11, 2012, 08:38:56 PM
Quote from: Nigel on March 11, 2012, 07:56:46 PM
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on March 11, 2012, 05:25:49 PM
Those signs look an awful lot like Trebuchet...
They are. Just not in the way you expect.
I would have been very disappointed in this board if no one went for that joke.
What joke?
(http://www.real-world-physics-problems.com/images/trebuchet.jpg)
I know what a trebuchet looks like.
Quote from: Net on March 11, 2012, 08:21:47 AM
Quote from: Guru Coyote on March 11, 2012, 05:31:52 AM
Quote from: navkat on March 11, 2012, 01:37:59 AM
I'm the girl driving 10 mph below the speed limit and staying in the middle lane so I can read the signs and make sure I don't make any mistakes. Then, I will invariably figure out where I need to be, drop it down to 5th, speeeeeed waaaaay the fuck up and aggressively get in the correct lane before it's too late. You will shit yourself a little and go "WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS CRAZY BITCH DOING?!?"
Ha ha.
I fucking hate people that do that. Even when I am driving someplace I don't know, I drive the speed limit, at a minimum, and I have shitty ass distance vision so I won't be able read the signs as soon as the rest of you guys.
The good news is that the highway signage is currently being replaced with a typeface (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/12/magazine/12fonts-t.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all) designed specifically to withstand things like reflective glare in the fog and still remain legible.
Hopefully this will improve the chances of you making it out to Portland—you missed a good time with Alty and an epic house party.
I didn't come because my right eye decided that it didn't want to focus correctly, thus depriving me of depth perception, while at the same time giving me conflicting visual information. In short, double vision and a terrible headache. I could have made it, but I would have been in a terrible mood, and drinking would have knocked me the fuck out. As for Alty, I guess I will have to invade Alaska at some point.
Quote from: navkat on March 09, 2012, 10:49:04 PM
Derrived from this thread: http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php/topic,31878.0.html which started to go off-course into a discussion about manipulation which got me thinking about some stuff not directly related to the concepts of labeling and chunking so I felt it deserved its own thread instead of jacking that one off in a different direction.
So, to pick up: manipulation is such a subjective word and concept, right? I mean what you define as "coercive" may not be to others.
I dated a guy who accused a lot of people of trying to "manipulate" him and actually once told me he considers himself a veritable expert on the subject of deducing people's intent since he'd been to years worth of therapy that trained him to be acutely aware of people's coercive tactics. Yet, he's an admitted proponent of the Seduction Society/Pickup Artist techniques which he sees as "self-marketing," a harmless way of maximizing the efficiency of your influence with people to increase your probability of desirable outcomes with them. Sounds perfectly reasonable, right?
Okay, I once saw him send this link to a friend: http://www.attractology.com/articles/inner-game/cat-string-theory/
Here's more off that site: http://www.attractology.com/2010/03/engagedisengagereengage-edr-technique/
and: http://www.attractology.com/2010/03/call/
This, in particular, bothers me:
Quote
5) Whatever story you go into, try somehow incorporating her into it, disqualifying her (if possible) during the story and later try to make her qualify herself to you. Not as much as you would do in person but just a small little disqualification could be thrown in there
And how different is that from The Rules (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rules) of the late 90s?
Parodied on SNL ("Get the ring!"): http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/the-rules-show/1354349
So what say you? Isn't this the very definition of being manipulative (as we've come to understand the negative connotation)? Or is this stuff (as my ex understands it) a harmless/necessary part of being effective socially?
I wonder if dude has stopped to relate how much he leans on horse-shit like this to how much he perceives others to be manipulating him.
Had to break up with a woman who was otherwise great fun because she was pulling a bunch of manipulative crap. Thing was, I knew that was her shtick going in. But I spent 6 months behind a strict friend line calling her on her shit when she'd do it with others. When we did hook up, there weren't any expectations or questions asked. So when she started trying to play with me I was :?
I asked her why she felt that was a thing to do considering A: I had already called her on it a thousand times when it was 0 stakes. and B: There was no point since things were well casual.
She admitted that she thought that's just what people do. I had never once heard her complain about others manipulating her. I'm wondering if she had not been aware of how she was doing it herself, or not been willing to own up to it, if she wouldn't have been more accusatory of others.
Projection is one of the most common behaviors I've seen in abusive/dysfunctional relationships. Does your ex call others manipulative because he can't see his behavior that way? I would think the more "success" a person had employing techniques instead of just FUCKING BEING THEMSELVES, the more insecure they'd become. Confidence in running game is not self-confidence--just the opposite. Can't trust yourself. Can't trust others.
Well put.
Seconded. I think that's precisely what it must be.
I won't lie, I had ulterior motives for posting this here. The other thread got me thinking a lot about again this after a while of not thinking about it. I tried very hard to present it in a way that was as accurate a representation of how he presented this stuff to myself and others.
The fact is: he was a mindfuck. I'm not sure if he believes his own baloney and is a genuine paranoid mess or if he doesn't and it's all premeditated evil. I can say that he projects the image that he's someone who believes people have treated him unfairly and deceitfully but that he has not and believes himself to be honest and fair. I certainly believed his baloney.
I will also state that I have caught the guy in lies and have kept my mouth shut. For the most part, they were small lies, mostly to make himself look successful or to get himself out of uncomfortable social situations. Only three times in the years I've known him have I caught him in lies that I considered more serious.
But one of these was to tell me that he never lies...or hasn't in many years--at a time when saying this very thing was being used to attack my character and my integrity in a situation where his support, trust, kindness and cooperation was imperative.
I consider that to be:
1. a sign of mental illness as he should at least be comfortable admitting "No, you're right. I don't always tell the truth. I am judging you too harshly and making assumptions based on unequal standards."
2. a sign of mental illness because he actually believes this to be true and is therefore, comfortable letting his deceits "slip his mind."
3. a sign that he is evil because he is deliberately out to deceive to get his way or put him in a more advantageous position and has no conscience about it.
I believe that people usually have good intent but that sometimes, people lie. They do it out of fear, they do it because they didn't think their answer through before they spoke (I've done this. I said to myself after the fact "Now why the fuck did I say THAT? That soesn't even make sense, now that I think of it") and sometimes, they lie out of necessity.
The lies that are indicative of bad character are the ones told out of a desire for personal gain or with the deliberate intent of causing harm.
Everyone tries to minimize their bad side and present the best of themselves when dating new people but I believe being a "Pickup Artist" is manipulation in the most negative connotation because you are deliberately deploying psychological tactics to get people to make false conclusions, to elicit and invoke their fears of scarcity, rejection and inferiority, to utilize their vulnerabilities...basically tailoring their perception for personal gain. That gain doesn't have to be sex, per se but telling yourself your intentions and ends justify the means is psychotic. It doesn't matter if what I want is sex, money or if I intend to commit to them. If I "trick" someone into becoming attached to an unnatural/designed representation of myself, I am violating their right to unhampered personal choice.
Quote from: navkat on March 13, 2012, 07:14:51 AM
but one of these was to tell me that he never lies...or hasn't in many years--at a time when saying this very thing was being used to attack my character and my integrity in a situation where his support, trust, kindness and cooperation was imperative.
I consider that to be:
1. a sign of mental illness as he should at least be comfortable admitting "No, you're right. I don't always tell the truth. I am judging you too harshly and making assumptions based on unequal standards."
2. a sign of mental illness because he actually believes this to be true and is therefore, comfortable letting his deceits "slip his mind."
3. a sign that he is evil because he is deliberately out to deceive to get his way or put him in a more advantageous position and has no conscience about it.
4. Desperate for you to believe what he is saying because that's the only idea of truth he has left. I've seen this shit cross over into full blown delusions. It's ugly. Ever wake someone in the middle of a nightmare?
I can't discount 3, just because sociopaths are twisted in their ends and
means, but looking at the material he's reading, I would doubt he was aware enough in your interactions to be deliberate. As a lot of people have pointed out, that shit's kind of geared towards the insecure d-bag. Sociopaths are many things, but rarely insecure in that kind of way.
You've seen the manipulations I've admitted to using in gambling (and in that context that's the
tip of the iceberg). To me the information in those links isn't even manipulation 101. The few real sociopaths I've run across are predators on a whole different level. No conscience. Fully deliberate. But targeting vulnerabilities PUA fuckery doesn't even begin to brush up against.
Not any less dangerous when the manipulator's unaware, but somewhat more predictable if you know what you're looking at.
Yep, not even manipulation 101. Just something to make jerks feel like masterminds until they screw it up. The guys who buy this crap are the ones being manipulated.
Which is actually kind of LAIL. :lol:
I try to keep in mind how easy it is for people to re-write or screw up their own memories without realizing it. The Boyfriend has an awesome story about a wedding he went to, and literally not one part of it actually happened the way he remembers.* Also, I happen to have the kind of shitty memory where I can say something to someone and be asked immediately afterwards what I just said and have no fucking clue. So I guess maybe I'm more forgiving than I ought to be just from being fucked up myself.
*But it's an awesome story, and the groom in question has agreed that it's far more entertaining to tell it that way
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on March 13, 2012, 01:06:18 PM
I try to keep in mind how easy it is for people to re-write or screw up their own memories without realizing it.
That's actually something really good to keep in mind. People are horribly unreliable narrators in their own lives, and the amount of fights a person would get into assuming every instance of forgetfulness was really manipulation...whew.
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on March 13, 2012, 01:06:18 PM
I try to keep in mind how easy it is for people to re-write or screw up their own memories without realizing it. The Boyfriend has an awesome story about a wedding he went to, and literally not one part of it actually happened the way he remembers.* Also, I happen to have the kind of shitty memory where I can say something to someone and be asked immediately afterwards what I just said and have no fucking clue. So I guess maybe I'm more forgiving than I ought to be just from being fucked up myself.
*But it's an awesome story, and the groom in question has agreed that it's far more entertaining to tell it that way
When it get's resolved with a hearty laugh all the way around, that's one thing. When it gets a rage reaction because "HOW DARE YOU FUCKING CALL ME A LIAR, YOU'RE THE LIAR!" you can be sure it's something else.
Quote from: NoLeDeMiel on March 13, 2012, 01:31:14 PM
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on March 13, 2012, 01:06:18 PM
I try to keep in mind how easy it is for people to re-write or screw up their own memories without realizing it. The Boyfriend has an awesome story about a wedding he went to, and literally not one part of it actually happened the way he remembers.* Also, I happen to have the kind of shitty memory where I can say something to someone and be asked immediately afterwards what I just said and have no fucking clue. So I guess maybe I'm more forgiving than I ought to be just from being fucked up myself.
*But it's an awesome story, and the groom in question has agreed that it's far more entertaining to tell it that way
When it get's resolved with a hearty laugh all the way around, that's one thing. When it gets a rage reaction because "HOW DARE YOU FUCKING CALL ME A LIAR, YOU'RE THE LIAR!" you can be sure it's something else.
Have you ever been called out on a lie that you really believed wasn't one? Or had to sit there and think for a full minute and still have no ability to remember anything about the conversation that you just had? It's awful and terrifying, and I would not be surprised if some people's immediate reaction is anger and denial. If they can't come to grips with it over a longer period (as opposed to the kneejerk "DON'T CALL ME A LIAR YOU LIAR"), then it's obviously either a case of willful deception or actual mental illness.
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on March 13, 2012, 01:36:00 PM
Quote from: NoLeDeMiel on March 13, 2012, 01:31:14 PM
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on March 13, 2012, 01:06:18 PM
I try to keep in mind how easy it is for people to re-write or screw up their own memories without realizing it. The Boyfriend has an awesome story about a wedding he went to, and literally not one part of it actually happened the way he remembers.* Also, I happen to have the kind of shitty memory where I can say something to someone and be asked immediately afterwards what I just said and have no fucking clue. So I guess maybe I'm more forgiving than I ought to be just from being fucked up myself.
*But it's an awesome story, and the groom in question has agreed that it's far more entertaining to tell it that way
When it get's resolved with a hearty laugh all the way around, that's one thing. When it gets a rage reaction because "HOW DARE YOU FUCKING CALL ME A LIAR, YOU'RE THE LIAR!" you can be sure it's something else.
Have you ever been called out on a lie that you really believed wasn't one? Or had to sit there and think for a full minute and still have no ability to remember anything about the conversation that you just had? It's awful and terrifying, and I would not be surprised if some people's immediate reaction is anger and denial. If they can't come to grips with it over a longer period (as opposed to the kneejerk "DON'T CALL ME A LIAR YOU LIAR"), then it's obviously either a case of willful deception or actual mental illness.
Yeah. Thought about that after I posted my last reply.
I think the difference would be in context, which isn't real easy to lay out in a general case. Pretty obvious when you're there, though (except for the part where your head is being fucked).
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on March 13, 2012, 01:06:18 PM
I try to keep in mind how easy it is for people to re-write or screw up their own memories without realizing it. The Boyfriend has an awesome story about a wedding he went to, and literally not one part of it actually happened the way he remembers.* Also, I happen to have the kind of shitty memory where I can say something to someone and be asked immediately afterwards what I just said and have no fucking clue. So I guess maybe I'm more forgiving than I ought to be just from being fucked up myself.
*But it's an awesome story, and the groom in question has agreed that it's far more entertaining to tell it that way
That's symptomatic of a disorder.
http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/traits.html
"The most telling thing that narcissists do is contradict themselves. They will do this virtually in the same sentence, without even stopping to take a breath. It can be trivial (e.g., about what they want for lunch) or it can be serious (e.g., about whether or not they love you). When you ask them which one they mean, they'll deny ever saying the first one, though it may literally have been only seconds since they said it -- really, how could you think they'd ever have said that? You need to have your head examined! They will contradict FACTS. They will lie to you about things that you did together. They will misquote you to yourself. If you disagree with them, they'll say you're lying, making stuff up, or are crazy. "
Quote from: AnnaMaeBollocks on March 13, 2012, 04:37:48 PM
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on March 13, 2012, 01:06:18 PM
I try to keep in mind how easy it is for people to re-write or screw up their own memories without realizing it. The Boyfriend has an awesome story about a wedding he went to, and literally not one part of it actually happened the way he remembers.* Also, I happen to have the kind of shitty memory where I can say something to someone and be asked immediately afterwards what I just said and have no fucking clue. So I guess maybe I'm more forgiving than I ought to be just from being fucked up myself.
*But it's an awesome story, and the groom in question has agreed that it's far more entertaining to tell it that way
That's symptomatic of a disorder.
http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/traits.html
"The most telling thing that narcissists do is contradict themselves. They will do this virtually in the same sentence, without even stopping to take a breath. It can be trivial (e.g., about what they want for lunch) or it can be serious (e.g., about whether or not they love you). When you ask them which one they mean, they'll deny ever saying the first one, though it may literally have been only seconds since they said it -- really, how could you think they'd ever have said that? You need to have your head examined! They will contradict FACTS. They will lie to you about things that you did together. They will misquote you to yourself. If you disagree with them, they'll say you're lying, making stuff up, or are crazy. "
I'm hoping you didn't just internet diagnose me with anything.
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on March 13, 2012, 04:54:37 PM
Quote from: AnnaMaeBollocks on March 13, 2012, 04:37:48 PM
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on March 13, 2012, 01:06:18 PM
I try to keep in mind how easy it is for people to re-write or screw up their own memories without realizing it. The Boyfriend has an awesome story about a wedding he went to, and literally not one part of it actually happened the way he remembers.* Also, I happen to have the kind of shitty memory where I can say something to someone and be asked immediately afterwards what I just said and have no fucking clue. So I guess maybe I'm more forgiving than I ought to be just from being fucked up myself.
*But it's an awesome story, and the groom in question has agreed that it's far more entertaining to tell it that way
That's symptomatic of a disorder.
http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/traits.html
"The most telling thing that narcissists do is contradict themselves. They will do this virtually in the same sentence, without even stopping to take a breath. It can be trivial (e.g., about what they want for lunch) or it can be serious (e.g., about whether or not they love you). When you ask them which one they mean, they'll deny ever saying the first one, though it may literally have been only seconds since they said it -- really, how could you think they'd ever have said that? You need to have your head examined! They will contradict FACTS. They will lie to you about things that you did together. They will misquote you to yourself. If you disagree with them, they'll say you're lying, making stuff up, or are crazy. "
I'm hoping you didn't just internet diagnose me with anything.
That's how I got Space Tourrette's. It's just like regular Tourrette's 'cept in space no one can hear you COCKLIPS.
Of course not.
Your bf is exhibiting a symptom though. Which isn't a diagnosis but it's a pain in the ass, I lived with somebody who revied everything.
Quote from: AnnaMaeBollocks on March 13, 2012, 04:59:26 PM
Of course not.
Your bf is exhibiting a symptom though. Which isn't a diagnosis but it's a pain in the ass, I lived with somebody who revied everything.
There are lots of things that can cause that particular symptom. We've already got a good handle on the things that are wrong with our brains, and it's kind of insulting to drop the "narcissist" diagnosis, even as a possibility, on someone you know nothing about.
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on March 13, 2012, 05:10:37 PM
Quote from: AnnaMaeBollocks on March 13, 2012, 04:59:26 PM
Of course not.
Your bf is exhibiting a symptom though. Which isn't a diagnosis but it's a pain in the ass, I lived with somebody who revied everything.
There are lots of things that can cause that particular symptom. We've already got a good handle on the things that are wrong with our brains, and it's kind of insulting to drop the "narcissist" diagnosis, even as a possibility, on someone you know nothing about.
Sorry. Thought you wanted input.
I'm not insulted. I know what was meant.
Yes, revisionist truth patterns concern me as being a little more serious than poor self-esteem issues.
Yeah, it's a red flag. I could've worded it better.
Quote from: navkat on March 13, 2012, 05:23:35 PM
I'm not insulted. I know what was meant.
Yes, revisionist truth patterns concern me as being a little more serious than poor self-esteem issues.
Yeah, in your case it sounds like he did these things
and was also a dick, which is a very important distinction :)
Yeah. I'm not sure if it was deliberate. I mean, I suspect it is but in a completely "conveniently unaware" sort of way. I don't know. I've been puzzling for a while now about how someone can flip shit around like that without hesitation but at the same time, try to pass themselves off as uber-sensitive and caring and ethical unless it's deliberate.
Quote from: navkat on March 13, 2012, 05:42:26 PM
Yeah. I'm not sure if it was deliberate. I mean, I suspect it is but in a completely "conveniently unaware" sort of way. I don't know. I've been puzzling for a while now about how someone can flip shit around like that without hesitation but at the same time, try to pass themselves off as uber-sensitive and caring and ethical unless it's deliberate.
Habitually, compulsively, pathologically...
When a person's got no sense of self worth, they rely inordinately on validation from other people. Probably started learning how to get it before they learned how to walk. Never fills the hole though, just digs it deeper. It's not about passing themselves off as sensitive, caring and ethical, it's about feeling sensitive, caring and ethical because someone else sees them that way. Never works. Thus the volatility. If they're not feeling validated, you must not be doing enough validating. Until they've deconstructed that shit, it's just automatic.
Deliberate types--sociopaths--could give a fuck about all that. If they want you to trust them, to rely on them, it's to turn you out, to ride you into the ground, to torture and abuse you. Having control is all that matters. Their brains are on a level that treats people as toys or tools, consciously. Kind of PUA, except waiting 3 days to call isn't going to better the chances of a "Charlie is Jesus" result.
I've known a lot of fucked up dysfunctional manipulative people (myself included). To my knowledge, I've met 4 sociopaths. I stay away from the habitual one's because they can suck me in before I know what happened. I get right up in the face of the deliberate one's and let them know what will happen if they get close to anyone I know...or see...