I'm currently having a conversation with someone about Church of the Flying Spaggetti Monster (AKA Pastafarianism). I was posing that, unlike she had proposed, Pastafarianism and Discordianism (or CotSG) are not really that similar.
My argument was that, while the latter irreligions were "religion masking joke masking substance", the latter was a joke through and through. People who use the parody tend not to self identify under that label, which is at best a ploy by atheists to counteract the teaching of creationism in schools.
Compare this with the more "traditional" irreligions of Discordianism and Church of the Subgenius. The former is a radical westernization of zen and taoism, the later a radical subversion of religion in general. And I pointed out that in 10 years, hardly anyone will remember the flying spagetti monster, but there will still be Discordians.
Now, why is that?
It seems to me that these "one-liner" irreligions have essentially no substance. As Nigel said previously, Discordianism is a complete system, a complete metamap through which to go about exploring reality. It provides an entire, absurdist groundplan from which to view the universe. The "substance obscured by the joke" is actually rather deep and useful. And this substance, and the history of human creativity surrounding this substance, allows a social cohesiveness despite the fact that it is a joke (and that "Discordians stick apart"). For example, this forum wouldn't still be around 10+ years after it got started if there wasn't some essential substance beneath the joke.
There is no social cohesion in Pastafarianism beyond the original goal to push creationism out of public schools. I would argue that there is actually NO Pastafarianism in the first place, because no one actually identifies as one. The lack of substance means that social groups tend to quickly fall apart. Look at the Church of Google for the same reason. It's the difference between laughing at a joke and forgetting it, and laughing at a joke only later to go "oh, there are a whole bunch of hidden gems there".
I know people here have been to some of these parody religion forums, and I hope you will comment.
My other thought is when you cling to a joke which has no substance as if it did, you start taking yourself too seriously. And if the backers of the parody aren't high enough in numbers, the social structure tends to fall apart quickly when under attack. There's no reason to cling together, as it was at the Church of Google forums.
Well said, Kai.
This may be belaboring the point, but one must really take into consideration the intent of the belief structure.
"Disorder is just as important as order; and by the way, they're both subjective illusions."*
"Creationism is stupid; I use reducto ad absurdum to prove that."
Discordia gives you new tools in order to create new filters and roadmaps through existence.
FSM attacks a foolish state of mind by postulating an identically foolish state of mind.
And who wants to share a similar framework of ideas as the thing you're trying to tear down?
*The 'intent' of Discordians tends to be mutable, of course. Don't get distracted by this version.
Good post, Kai! Pastafarianism essentially boils down to a very clever argument which is part of a specific discussion: creationism vs intelligent design. Pastafarianism holds no further truths, it is merely a negation of ID.
And that negation is very very similar to many ideas expressed in Discordia ("Don't you think some of this may be bullshit?"), which is why Eris and the FSM are cousins. But they are very different animals.
Part of Omar's intent was to create a system which offers an approach to spirituality without the thought-stopping snares of dogma and tribal hierarchy. He knew that the experiences those "enlightened masters" were having were real experiences, the bullshit comes when you try to draw those experiences into the realm of human error and drama. So maybe we can get past that error and drama by banishing seriousness and embracing humor and absurdity. It's a real challenge to western religions which only offer you spiritual rewards as a "retirement package" from years of work and submission to the [human] hierarchy.
One liner is a perfect way to describe it kai. I would go further to say that since fsm is a joke and only a joke after a while its just not funny anymore.
Actually i remember a few years back a pastafarian scoffed at me when i advised her to check out a real fake religion like discordianism instead of a one trick pony. She seemed to think discordianism was an old joke best suited for nerds even though she was clearly nerdier than me by light years.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on January 31, 2012, 09:14:34 PM
Well said, Kai.
This may be belaboring the point, but one must really take into consideration the intent of the belief structure.
"Disorder is just as important as order; and by the way, they're both subjective illusions."*
"Creationism is stupid; I use reducto ad absurdum to prove that."
Discordia gives you new tools in order to create new filters and roadmaps through existence.
FSM attacks a foolish state of mind by postulating an identically foolish state of mind.
And who wants to share a similar framework of ideas as the thing you're trying to tear down?
*The 'intent' of Discordians tends to be mutable, of course. Don't get distracted by this version.
I think it's really interesting how a social group can persist despite opposition of member viewpoints. Or perhaps that's just a requirement of social group continuity. Those that can't survive argument schism or disintegrate.
One of the things that killed Pastafarianism is that they stopped being funny, and turned into a pack of shrill evangelistic atheists.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 31, 2012, 09:34:10 PM
One of the things that killed Pastafarianism is that they stopped being funny, and turned into a pack of shrill evangelistic atheists.
Yeah, they took the joke too seriously, and unfortunately for them atheism isn't exactly an accepted worldview in this country. Turned people off.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 31, 2012, 09:34:10 PM
One of the things that killed Pastafarianism is that they stopped being funny, and turned into a pack of shrill evangelistic atheists.
I think I would have a hard time pulling off "shrill" ove the internet if I tried, but they seem able to do it without effort.
Quote from: ZL 'Kai' Burington, M.S. on January 31, 2012, 09:36:52 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 31, 2012, 09:34:10 PM
One of the things that killed Pastafarianism is that they stopped being funny, and turned into a pack of shrill evangelistic atheists.
Yeah, they took the joke too seriously, and unfortunately for them atheism isn't exactly an accepted worldview in this country. Turned people off.
Even if it was accepted, no one likes a shrill evangelist.
Quote from: Cramulus on January 31, 2012, 09:21:06 PM
Good post, Kai! Pastafarianism essentially boils down to a very clever argument which is part of a specific discussion: creationism vs intelligent design. Pastafarianism holds no further truths, it is merely a negation of ID.
And that negation is very very similar to many ideas expressed in Discordia ("Don't you think some of this may be bullshit?"), which is why Eris and the FSM are cousins. But they are very different animals.
Part of Omar's intent was to create a system which offers an approach to spirituality without the thought-stopping snares of dogma and tribal hierarchy. He knew that the experiences those "enlightened masters" were having were real experiences, the bullshit comes when you try to draw those experiences into the realm of human error and drama. So maybe we can get past that error and drama by banishing seriousness and embracing humor and absurdity. It's a real challenge to western religions which only offer you spiritual rewards as a "retirement package" from years of work and submission to the [human] hierarchy.
Yes, and despite the lack of dogma and tribal hierarchy (I'm not sure the latter doesn't happen), there's not an immoral attitude to the ideas. Discordians aren't hermits alone in the wilderness.
Quote from: ZL 'Kai' Burington, M.S. on January 31, 2012, 09:32:48 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on January 31, 2012, 09:14:34 PM
Well said, Kai.
This may be belaboring the point, but one must really take into consideration the intent of the belief structure.
"Disorder is just as important as order; and by the way, they're both subjective illusions."*
"Creationism is stupid; I use reducto ad absurdum to prove that."
Discordia gives you new tools in order to create new filters and roadmaps through existence.
FSM attacks a foolish state of mind by postulating an identically foolish state of mind.
And who wants to share a similar framework of ideas as the thing you're trying to tear down?
*The 'intent' of Discordians tends to be mutable, of course. Don't get distracted by this version.
I think it's really interesting how a social group can persist despite opposition of member viewpoints. Or perhaps that's just a requirement of social group continuity. Those that can't survive argument schism or disintegrate.
It's not unique to just us-- Rabbis have been arguing about the Torah for CENTURIES.
Quote from: Queen_Gogira on January 31, 2012, 09:40:09 PM
Quote from: ZL 'Kai' Burington, M.S. on January 31, 2012, 09:36:52 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 31, 2012, 09:34:10 PM
One of the things that killed Pastafarianism is that they stopped being funny, and turned into a pack of shrill evangelistic atheists.
Yeah, they took the joke too seriously, and unfortunately for them atheism isn't exactly an accepted worldview in this country. Turned people off.
Even if it was accepted, no one likes a shrill evangelist.
DING.
This is why I habitually threaten and abuse people who want to talk politics at parties.
I don't care which supposed "side" they're on. It's the SAME THING. Likewise, there is no difference between Veganza Pastafarians and Rick Santorum-esque Christian evangelists.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on January 31, 2012, 09:41:12 PM
It's not unique to just us-- Rabbis have been arguing about the Torah for CENTURIES.
In both cases, it's a
sport.
This might bear a little more thought.
Hmmm. Good point.
Lotsa good points, here. I agree with alla youse.
I would actually go a step further, too, and say that beyond the superficial veneer of "joke religion", Pastafarianism and Discordianism have almost nothing in common. Discordianism is a framework of philosophy, whereas Pastafarianism is really nothing more than a joke with Christianity as its butt.
Quote from: Nigel on January 31, 2012, 09:52:56 PM
Lotsa good points, here. I agree with alla youse.
I would actually go a step further, too, and say that beyond the superficial veneer of "joke religion", Pastafarianism and Discordianism have almost nothing in common. Discordianism is a framework of philosophy, whereas Pastafarianism is really nothing more than a joke with Christianity as its butt.
And they never added to the joke.
If we just kept mouthing the PD over and over again...Well, we'd be...Hugh.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 31, 2012, 09:54:44 PM
Quote from: Nigel on January 31, 2012, 09:52:56 PM
Lotsa good points, here. I agree with alla youse.
I would actually go a step further, too, and say that beyond the superficial veneer of "joke religion", Pastafarianism and Discordianism have almost nothing in common. Discordianism is a framework of philosophy, whereas Pastafarianism is really nothing more than a joke with Christianity as its butt.
And they never added to the joke.
If we just kept mouthing the PD over and over again...Well, we'd be...Hugh.
Yeah, one-liners seldom add to creativity. It's like people repeating Monty Python lines.
I'd argue it's dead because of drama nonsense (Venganza was THE hub of FSM activity for years; Bobby Henderson and Venganza's long term Capellini are drama queens, the both of them. Cap is also everything you do not want in an admin) and not necessarily because of the admitted age/lameness of the joke. It probably would have died anyway, though, and become one of those things people discover in their adolescence and think is really fucking cool before they grow out of it.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 31, 2012, 09:54:44 PM
Quote from: Nigel on January 31, 2012, 09:52:56 PM
Lotsa good points, here. I agree with alla youse.
I would actually go a step further, too, and say that beyond the superficial veneer of "joke religion", Pastafarianism and Discordianism have almost nothing in common. Discordianism is a framework of philosophy, whereas Pastafarianism is really nothing more than a joke with Christianity as its butt.
And they never added to the joke.
If we just kept mouthing the PD over and over again...Well, we'd be...Hugh.
THIS.
Quote from: ZL 'Kai' Burington, M.S. on January 31, 2012, 10:04:20 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 31, 2012, 09:54:44 PM
Quote from: Nigel on January 31, 2012, 09:52:56 PM
Lotsa good points, here. I agree with alla youse.
I would actually go a step further, too, and say that beyond the superficial veneer of "joke religion", Pastafarianism and Discordianism have almost nothing in common. Discordianism is a framework of philosophy, whereas Pastafarianism is really nothing more than a joke with Christianity as its butt.
And they never added to the joke.
If we just kept mouthing the PD over and over again...Well, we'd be...Hugh.
Yeah, one-liners seldom add to creativity. It's like people repeating Monty Python lines.
AND THIS!
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on January 31, 2012, 11:50:24 PM
I'd argue it's dead because of drama nonsense (Venganza was THE hub of FSM activity for years; Bobby Henderson and Venganza's long term Capellini are drama queens, the both of them. Cap is also everything you do not want in an admin) and not necessarily because of the admitted age/lameness of the joke. It probably would have died anyway, though, and become one of those things people discover in their adolescence and think is really fucking cool before they grow out of it.
Yeah, those strike me as contributing factors.
The FSM was narrowly situated in the existing cultural milieu. By comparison, Discordianism had deeper roots - despite being heavily influenced by the 1960s counterculture and western interpretations of eastern mysticism, it has a more widespread appeal, precisely because it is not strictly connected to a particular cause or time.
Wow, this is an awesome thread. Excellent comments all around!
I think the main points I agree with is the simple difference that Discordianism is an absurdist philosophy and FSM is an absurd joke about one aspect of one type of one religion. The FSM wasn't designed (hah!) to be anything more than a joke... some spags simply held on to it for too long.
Had the Pastafarians focused on expanding the absurd joke, perhaps it would have grown. Same for CoG.
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on February 01, 2012, 09:36:21 PM
Wow, this is an awesome thread. Excellent comments all around!
I think the main points I agree with is the simple difference that Discordianism is an absurdist philosophy and FSM is an absurd joke about one aspect of one type of one religion. The FSM wasn't designed (hah!) to be anything more than a joke... some spags simply held on to it for too long.
Had the Pastafarians focused on expanding the absurd joke, perhaps it would have grown. Same for CoG.
No, because the people at CoG were fucking idiots. That place never had a chance.
FSM mirrors Christianity in a lot of ways, too (ie, Mosey the Pirate and the eight I'd Rather You Didn'ts (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gospel_of_the_Flying_Spaghetti_Monster#Captain_Mosey_and_the_Eight_.22I.27d_Really_Rather_You_Didn.27ts.22)), which is not really refreshing or very interesting for very long because that's old hat.
CoG?
Quote from: Queen_Gogira on February 01, 2012, 10:23:52 PM
CoG?
Church of google.
There was a discordian jihad against them before I arrived.
I like that every email they ever got is "hate mail."
All of the above are very interesting thoughts, and the OP is almost exactly like something I tried to write quite a while ago but never managed to articulate to my satisfaction. Nice work, Kai.
Discordianism has the seeds of its own deconstruction built into itself. No matter how many iterations it goes through, there is a message etched into the foundation:
"Consider that this is probably all bullshit, no matter how good of a model it seems to be. Destroy this model in the event that it fails to coherently describe reality."
This is why Confusion is said to be a "holy state of mind." Confusion is when you've been presented with some information that your current understanding of the world cannot account for. It is in this state of confusion that we have to destroy the mental models we've built up (even if we built them with the help of Discordianism) and construct new ones that can account for the new information.
Discordianism isn't something you believe. It's something you practice.
After I got the PD, my wife started an annual Xmas tradition of getting me irreligious bibles as a present. The next year I got the CotSG book, and then the FSM book. I return quite often, and even regularly, to read pieces or the entities of the PD and BotSG. I don't think I ever read the whole FSM book because, as others have commented, it was a one trick pony.
Both the PD and BotSG have deeper and varied philosophies that are useful in the real world outside of the "organized religion is kooky" argument.
It's kind of like the Joe the Plumber, of irreligions.
Interesting note: The CotSG is also pretty much extinct, at least as any form of organized asshattery. Stang now refers to himself as a "public figure", and Philo Drummond and the rest are sort of coasting on Facebook.
The reason why, I think, is because they were so traumatized by usenet bullshit that they withdrew into a set of "secret forums" and closed Facebook clubs, and developed this weird idea that they were in fact as large as their egos (Mostly Stang, here. Nenslo disappeared for the most part, and the other 5 major writers haven't been producing, as Subgenii).
I've met more than a few of them, and I predicted this back in 1999. Hellpope Huey and Nenslo were the only people willing to engage (read: scream at, HST-style) anyone that wasn't in their own little circle (this was at a devival in Cleveland). I didn't bother trying...Nenslo and Huey were the two people I came to see.
But it was amusing watching Stang running people off with his Bob Dylan-esque hatred of his fans.
hey, random question ---
Do you think the mad scientist character "Philo" from Weird Al's movie UHF is supposed to be Philo Drummond?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ld-twoeg2s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkLLpiCpqQ0
Quote from: Cramulus on February 02, 2012, 09:19:06 PM
hey, random question ---
Do you think the mad scientist character "Philo" from Weird Al's movie UHF is supposed to be Philo Drummond?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ld-twoeg2s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkLLpiCpqQ0
I don't know, but I don't think so. Philo was never the Mad Doktor type. He mostly wrote the OVERMAN stuff.
Philo just SOUNDS like a crazed scientist's name.
related:
http://www.religiousstudiesproject.com/2012/02/03/essi-makela-finding-religiosity-within-a-parody/ (podcast)
http://www.religiousstudiesproject.com/2012/01/30/podcast-carole-cusack-on-invented-religions/
Quote from: Cramulus on February 03, 2012, 08:17:04 PM
related:
http://www.religiousstudiesproject.com/2012/02/03/essi-makela-finding-religiosity-within-a-parody/ (podcast)
http://www.religiousstudiesproject.com/2012/01/30/podcast-carole-cusack-on-invented-religions/
I thought those articles were very interesting, yet, I kept getting caught up in the language implying that 'traditional' religions are not as made up as irreligions. Because, of course, they are.
Quote from: ZL 'Kai' Burington, M.S. on February 04, 2012, 01:17:48 AM
Quote from: Cramulus on February 03, 2012, 08:17:04 PM
related:
http://www.religiousstudiesproject.com/2012/02/03/essi-makela-finding-religiosity-within-a-parody/ (podcast)
http://www.religiousstudiesproject.com/2012/01/30/podcast-carole-cusack-on-invented-religions/
I thought those articles were very interesting, yet, I kept getting caught up in the language implying that 'traditional' religions are not as made up as irreligions. Because, of course, they are.
The second one I thought took pains to express that. Have yet to hear the first.