Essential oils to combat ebola (http://"http://essentialsurvival.org/essential-oils-more-to-combat-ebola-virus/")
Just :argh!:
I am so. fucking. sick. of this new "therapeutic grade" essential oil buzz. They have their uses, as in, perfumes and with minor ailments, but not a fucking one of them is proven to be antiviral or antibacterial to the extent needed to treat severe illness. I fucking hate natropaths. They need to DIAF.
Quote from: essential oil quacks
I am not a doctor and am not qualified to give medical advice regarding the virus.
She literally says this, then proceeds to give advice anyway.
Quote from: Raz Tech on August 12, 2014, 12:06:19 AM
Quote from: essential oil quacks
I am not a doctor and am not qualified to give medical advice regarding the virus.
She literally says this, then proceeds to give advice anyway.
She's a Young Living seller trying to make sales by using fear mongering. That's all. That shit needs to be shut down.
I dunno, in this particular instance I may be in favour of letting the free market sort this out.
I mean, if you think essential oils sold by someone who admits to not being a doctor are going to fight ebola, I'm pretty sure you weren't going to hang onto your money for long anyway.
And if they do catch ebola they're pretty much fucked anyway (http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs103/en/).
Quote from: Raz Tech on August 12, 2014, 12:06:19 AM
Quote from: essential oil quacks
I am not a doctor and am not qualified to give medical advice regarding the virus.
She literally says this, then proceeds to give advice anyway.
That's not that shocking. Such disclaimers are standard with these kind of folk.
What amazes me, consistently, is that they say this right at the start and then people
still buy into the bullshit anyway.
It's even more amazing that with a few terms switched, it seems to occur in Financial, Political and/or any other circle you can imagine. People trust the tall people with good hair and teeth who talk authoritatively. They trust them right off the cliff. Ask Steve Jobs.
We look at ancient/colonial medicine and remedies ("Drink this Mercury!") as insane. In 100 years, people will talk about these guys in the same way. I hope.
Linking to the Halo Effect is relevant right now. (http://lesswrong.com/lw/lj/the_halo_effect/)
Quote from: Cain on August 12, 2014, 08:57:18 AM
I dunno, in this particular instance I may be in favour of letting the free market sort this out.
I mean, if you think essential oils sold by someone who admits to not being a doctor are going to fight ebola, I'm pretty sure you weren't going to hang onto your money for long anyway.
And if they do catch ebola they're pretty much fucked anyway (http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs103/en/).
It's been weeks, and there has been no epidemic in America, even though they brought some lady back from Africa and put her in some sorta "isolation ward" (patoiee!). The essential oils are obviously working.
Well, that or the fact that I painted my door with blood & semen to keep the disease demons away
1. Everyone thank me now.
1 I got the idea from a Metallica album cover, which kept the "talent" and "inspiration" demons away.
I think the real question here is, who's semen did you use?
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on August 13, 2014, 03:35:04 AM
Quote from: Cain on August 12, 2014, 08:57:18 AM
I dunno, in this particular instance I may be in favour of letting the free market sort this out.
I mean, if you think essential oils sold by someone who admits to not being a doctor are going to fight ebola, I'm pretty sure you weren't going to hang onto your money for long anyway.
And if they do catch ebola they're pretty much fucked anyway (http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs103/en/).
It's been weeks, and there has been no epidemic in America, even though they brought some lady back from Africa and put her in some sorta "isolation ward" (patoiee!). The essential oils are obviously working.
Well, that or the fact that I painted my door with blood & semen to keep the disease demons away1. Everyone thank me now.
1 I got the idea from a Metallica album cover, which kept the "talent" and "inspiration" demons away.
Obviously this is why the military is claiming they are using a "secret serum". If everyone knew they could just make use of essential oils, Big Pharma would collapse.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on August 13, 2014, 11:31:12 AM
I think the real question here is, who's semen did you use?
How the fuck should I know? I can't afford to DNA test every freak that comes down the street.
Quote from: Cain on August 13, 2014, 11:54:33 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on August 13, 2014, 03:35:04 AM
Quote from: Cain on August 12, 2014, 08:57:18 AM
I dunno, in this particular instance I may be in favour of letting the free market sort this out.
I mean, if you think essential oils sold by someone who admits to not being a doctor are going to fight ebola, I'm pretty sure you weren't going to hang onto your money for long anyway.
And if they do catch ebola they're pretty much fucked anyway (http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs103/en/).
It's been weeks, and there has been no epidemic in America, even though they brought some lady back from Africa and put her in some sorta "isolation ward" (patoiee!). The essential oils are obviously working.
Well, that or the fact that I painted my door with blood & semen to keep the disease demons away1. Everyone thank me now.
1 I got the idea from a Metallica album cover, which kept the "talent" and "inspiration" demons away.
Obviously this is why the military is claiming they are using a "secret serum". If everyone knew they could just make use of essential oils, Big Pharma would collapse.
Well, this is why Big Pharma lives in fear of tell-all websites. They don't want you to know just how rotten the edifice is. One good push with Ancient Asian Wisdom, and over the bastard goes.
I love you guys.
Oh man, I need to hang out with the WOO crowd more often. I could have fun with these subjects if i keep my eyes open for them.
So there is this huge, huge, FRIGHTENINGLY huge segment of the young reproductively active population that buys into this shit, hard. They identify themselves by it. "Natural parenting". This is a byproduct of the abject failure of the public education system; these, for the most part, are people who will in all sincerity use the words "do your research" to mean "google it and believe whatever's written on the first five for-profit snake-oil-peddling websites you find".
These are the same people who decry "big pharma" and the doctors who practice "conventional medicine" because they believe it's all driven by the profit motive, and spout outright bullshit such as "doctors don't have to take a single nutrition class in med school" (yeah, um, that's because med school isn't taught in classroom format, fucking ignorant twits) but wilfully disregard the profit motive of the multibillion dollar "alternative medicine" market, and happily spend thousands being pushed into chronic illness while spending thousands on the bullshit, if not outright harmful, supplements and treatments peddled to them by naturopathic "doctors".
We can only hope that exposure to chronic illnesses that would be otherwise curable by really real for real medicine has some sterilization effects, and we can move on to the next stage of evolution.
Quote from: The Suu on August 17, 2014, 05:18:12 PM
We can only hope that exposure to chronic illnesses that would be otherwise curable by really real for real medicine has some sterilization effects, and we can move on to the next stage of evolution.
Unfortunately, not usually.
I've seen a few people go down this road, and it generally has no impact on their willingness and ability to reproduce. See a naturopath -> get diagnosed with something that is complete bullshit -> Get put on restricted activity and expensive supplements -> Lose muscle tone and energy -> Continue supplements, get additional bullshit diagnoses -> Start identifying as chronically ill -> continue ad nauseam.
Naturopaths make a lot of money off supplements, and it's in their best interests financially to have patients who aren't thriving. Which is, ironically, exactly what they so frequently accuse mainstream medicine of. I actually don't think most of them do it consciously; they truly believe in the snake oil they're peddling.
Damn it, I thought the whole point of this "humanity" experiment is to get smarter over time.
How the hell did this turn into a philosophical discussion of the meaning of life?
Anyway, the meaning of life is obviously adventure.
Adventure requires danger.
Stupid humans are more dangerous than smart ones, especially when they move in packs.
So people are getting stupider because that maximizes adventure.
Q.E.D.
I think there's a bit of slippage between points 2 and 3.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on August 18, 2014, 12:26:48 PM
Damn it, I thought the whole point of this "humanity" experiment is to get smarter over time.
No, it's just to keep making primates.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on August 18, 2014, 02:14:39 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on August 18, 2014, 12:26:48 PM
Damn it, I thought the whole point of this "humanity" experiment is to get smarter over time.
No, it's just to keep making primates.
Point.
Depressing, depressing point.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on August 18, 2014, 02:26:19 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on August 18, 2014, 02:14:39 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on August 18, 2014, 12:26:48 PM
Damn it, I thought the whole point of this "humanity" experiment is to get smarter over time.
No, it's just to keep making primates.
Point.
Depressing, depressing point.
People even educated people - keep assuming that evolution has a goal. Because it's nice to think that there's someone driving the bus, yanno?
But there isn't.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on August 18, 2014, 05:28:01 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on August 18, 2014, 02:26:19 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on August 18, 2014, 02:14:39 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on August 18, 2014, 12:26:48 PM
Damn it, I thought the whole point of this "humanity" experiment is to get smarter over time.
No, it's just to keep making primates.
Point.
Depressing, depressing point.
People even educated people - keep assuming that evolution has a goal. Because it's nice to think that there's someone driving the bus, yanno?
But there isn't.
Um... the goal of evolution is my children growing unicorn horns and farting rainbows. OBVIOUSLY.
Quote from: Fredfredly ⊂(◉‿◉)つ on August 18, 2014, 09:28:16 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on August 18, 2014, 05:28:01 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on August 18, 2014, 02:26:19 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on August 18, 2014, 02:14:39 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on August 18, 2014, 12:26:48 PM
Damn it, I thought the whole point of this "humanity" experiment is to get smarter over time.
No, it's just to keep making primates.
Point.
Depressing, depressing point.
People even educated people - keep assuming that evolution has a goal. Because it's nice to think that there's someone driving the bus, yanno?
But there isn't.
Um... the goal of evolution is my children growing unicorn horns and farting rainbows. OBVIOUSLY.
Hmmmm.... I think that can be arranged. I will need some of your ova, pre=fertilized. A few thousand will do for a start.
Don't worry about the mutagenic compounds, I have a contact for that. :evil:
There is no goal of evolution.
But if there was, it would be Fred's children having unicorns and farting rainbows.
Those people are making me sick. They better wear their protective crystal amulet when they meet me on the streets.
Or else you'll bore them to death?
Quote from: Hoopla on August 19, 2014, 12:20:55 PM
Or else you'll bore them to death?
Boredom comes from inside. They did this to themselves, officer, I swear.
Quote from: Weltbürger (NSFW) on August 19, 2014, 12:49:11 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on August 19, 2014, 12:20:55 PM
Or else you'll bore them to death?
Boredom comes from inside. They did this to themselves, officer, I swear.
It's not
all solipsism. You are objectively boring.
Quote from: Hoopla on August 19, 2014, 01:25:41 PM
Quote from: Weltbürger (NSFW) on August 19, 2014, 12:49:11 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on August 19, 2014, 12:20:55 PM
Or else you'll bore them to death?
Boredom comes from inside. They did this to themselves, officer, I swear.
It's not all solipsism. You are objectively boring.
Then, perhaps, ye shall seek thy jester in an other castle, Sire.
Quote from: Weltbürger (NSFW) on August 19, 2014, 07:30:03 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on August 19, 2014, 01:25:41 PM
Quote from: Weltbürger (NSFW) on August 19, 2014, 12:49:11 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on August 19, 2014, 12:20:55 PM
Or else you'll bore them to death?
Boredom comes from inside. They did this to themselves, officer, I swear.
It's not all solipsism. You are objectively boring.
Then, perhaps, ye shall seek thy jester in an other castle, Sire.
See?
Quote from: Hoopla on August 19, 2014, 07:59:23 PM
Quote from: Weltbürger (NSFW) on August 19, 2014, 07:30:03 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on August 19, 2014, 01:25:41 PM
Quote from: Weltbürger (NSFW) on August 19, 2014, 12:49:11 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on August 19, 2014, 12:20:55 PM
Or else you'll bore them to death?
Boredom comes from inside. They did this to themselves, officer, I swear.
It's not all solipsism. You are objectively boring.
Then, perhaps, ye shall seek thy jester in an other castle, Sire.
See?
Any suggestions besides lurking moar?
Quote from: Weltbürger (NSFW) on August 19, 2014, 08:14:56 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on August 19, 2014, 07:59:23 PM
Quote from: Weltbürger (NSFW) on August 19, 2014, 07:30:03 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on August 19, 2014, 01:25:41 PM
Quote from: Weltbürger (NSFW) on August 19, 2014, 12:49:11 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on August 19, 2014, 12:20:55 PM
Or else you'll bore them to death?
Boredom comes from inside. They did this to themselves, officer, I swear.
It's not all solipsism. You are objectively boring.
Then, perhaps, ye shall seek thy jester in an other castle, Sire.
See?
Any suggestions besides lurking moar?
Be better.
Quote from: Hoopla on August 19, 2014, 08:16:53 PM
Quote from: Weltbürger (NSFW) on August 19, 2014, 08:14:56 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on August 19, 2014, 07:59:23 PM
Quote from: Weltbürger (NSFW) on August 19, 2014, 07:30:03 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on August 19, 2014, 01:25:41 PM
Quote from: Weltbürger (NSFW) on August 19, 2014, 12:49:11 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on August 19, 2014, 12:20:55 PM
Or else you'll bore them to death?
Boredom comes from inside. They did this to themselves, officer, I swear.
It's not all solipsism. You are objectively boring.
Then, perhaps, ye shall seek thy jester in an other castle, Sire.
See?
Any suggestions besides lurking moar?
Be better.
How do?
Quote from: Weltbürger (NSFW) on August 19, 2014, 08:18:16 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on August 19, 2014, 08:16:53 PM
Quote from: Weltbürger (NSFW) on August 19, 2014, 08:14:56 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on August 19, 2014, 07:59:23 PM
Quote from: Weltbürger (NSFW) on August 19, 2014, 07:30:03 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on August 19, 2014, 01:25:41 PM
Quote from: Weltbürger (NSFW) on August 19, 2014, 12:49:11 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on August 19, 2014, 12:20:55 PM
Or else you'll bore them to death?
Boredom comes from inside. They did this to themselves, officer, I swear.
It's not all solipsism. You are objectively boring.
Then, perhaps, ye shall seek thy jester in an other castle, Sire.
See?
Any suggestions besides lurking moar?
Be better.
How do?
I suggest going back through all of your own posts, reading them thoroughly... then make like George Costanza, and do the opposite.
Quote from: Hoopla on August 19, 2014, 08:21:01 PM
Quote from: Weltbürger (NSFW) on August 19, 2014, 08:18:16 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on August 19, 2014, 08:16:53 PM
Quote from: Weltbürger (NSFW) on August 19, 2014, 08:14:56 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on August 19, 2014, 07:59:23 PM
Quote from: Weltbürger (NSFW) on August 19, 2014, 07:30:03 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on August 19, 2014, 01:25:41 PM
Quote from: Weltbürger (NSFW) on August 19, 2014, 12:49:11 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on August 19, 2014, 12:20:55 PM
Or else you'll bore them to death?
Boredom comes from inside. They did this to themselves, officer, I swear.
It's not all solipsism. You are objectively boring.
Then, perhaps, ye shall seek thy jester in an other castle, Sire.
See?
Any suggestions besides lurking moar?
Be better.
How do?
I suggest going back through all of your own posts, reading them thoroughly... then make like George Costanza, and do the opposite.
What would be the opposite of my posts?
Not your posts.
Quote from: Cain on August 19, 2014, 08:24:53 PM
Not your posts.
Isn't a negation just the most primitive form of an opposite, amongst many others?
psychic surgery is so much cooler than homeopathy. There's actual showmanship and sleight-of-hand involved.
Quote from: Slyph on August 20, 2014, 02:55:05 AM
psychic surgery is so much cooler than homeopathy. There's actual showmanship and sleight-of-hand involved.
Psychic...........surgery? What? This is a thing?! :horrormirth:
Quote from: The Suu on August 21, 2014, 04:07:06 AM
Quote from: Slyph on August 20, 2014, 02:55:05 AM
psychic surgery is so much cooler than homeopathy. There's actual showmanship and sleight-of-hand involved.
Psychic...........surgery? What? This is a thing?! :horrormirth:
It's when people pretend to poke into people with their fingers to remove tumours and whatnot.
Hey, if Andy Kaufman fell for it....
They also do little magic tricks with beats of meat or bloody chicken down, like putting their mouth on you, then bringing up some bloody feathers so it looks like they "sucked" some badness out of you.
Quote from: Slyph on August 21, 2014, 12:19:44 PM
They also do little magic tricks with beats of meat or bloody chicken down, like putting their mouth on you, then bringing up some bloody feathers so it looks like they "sucked" some badness out of you.
Was that featured in a movie, or some sort of CSISVUNCIS?
Quote from: Trivial on August 22, 2014, 02:57:09 AM
Quote from: Slyph on August 21, 2014, 12:19:44 PM
They also do little magic tricks with beats of meat or bloody chicken down, like putting their mouth on you, then bringing up some bloody feathers so it looks like they "sucked" some badness out of you.
Was that featured in a movie, or some sort of CSISVUNCIS?
It's a fraud, and a very old one.
Somewhat related. I really hope this is a troll.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/v/t1.0-9/10603492_912005375481532_7647376923142243954_n.jpg?oh=f33190f4ef05b63a84708cd9482ead83&oe=547B0F0F&__gda__=1416274131_5843a5bbd4f449bba4029c265bcf61d8)
Quote from: Allfader Waffles on August 22, 2014, 02:51:34 PM
Somewhat related. I really hope this is a troll.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/v/t1.0-9/10603492_912005375481532_7647376923142243954_n.jpg?oh=f33190f4ef05b63a84708cd9482ead83&oe=547B0F0F&__gda__=1416274131_5843a5bbd4f449bba4029c265bcf61d8)
It's probably real. It's a funny little game we like to call Cognitive Dissonance.
Quote from: Allfader Waffles on August 22, 2014, 02:51:34 PM
Somewhat related. I really hope this is a troll.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/v/t1.0-9/10603492_912005375481532_7647376923142243954_n.jpg?oh=f33190f4ef05b63a84708cd9482ead83&oe=547B0F0F&__gda__=1416274131_5843a5bbd4f449bba4029c265bcf61d8)
I hope it's not a troll, because at least then there's a chance that some of these ignorant fucks might actually get their kids the medical care they need instead of magically believing that it causes autism and they can stave it off by not taking their kid to the doctor.
The chiropractors and naturopathic "doctors" that support this shit should have their licenses pulled.
I want to know who thought chiropractic care for babies was a good idea to begin with.
Quote from: The Suu on August 22, 2014, 05:40:01 PM
I want to know who thought chiropractic care for babies was a good idea to begin with.
The same type of people that held up arithmatic flash cards for newborns in the 80s, I'd guess.
The acupuncture sessions are still OK though, right?
Because a fiver says that the list there is longer than that, if legit.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on August 22, 2014, 05:42:17 PM
Quote from: The Suu on August 22, 2014, 05:40:01 PM
I want to know who thought chiropractic care for babies was a good idea to begin with.
The same type of people that held up arithmatic flash cards for newborns in the 80s, I'd guess.
I thought that only worked if you put Mozart on via a pair of headphones to the preggo belly.
Quote from: The Suu on August 22, 2014, 05:40:01 PM
I want to know who thought chiropractic care for babies was a good idea to begin with.
Chiropracters.
I have met so many and refuse to work for them. I have yet to meet one who isn't a quack. One of them practically threw me out of the office when I told hin I wanted half of what he got from the insurance companies for my work. After making me watch a video about how awesome he is.
Another charges $360 per hour for massage with no cash discount amd pays his therapists $45 out of it.
That entire field is custom designed to strip insurance companies of money and keep it like greedy little pigs.
Trouble is, as always, they actually believe people, babies, are better off witg their spines carefully tended to.
Read some of the Homeopathy topic, and I was like thinking to myself; "Wow, this guy claims a MSc in Neuroscience, a Degree in Philosophy, a Doctorate in Dental Sciences and a fuckin Congressional Medal of Honor, or whatever... And I'm just sitting here, with my Certificate of Being a Fucking Janitor... With Honours annd I know this guy's full of shit."
Feels Good, Man.
I feel like I struck gold with the chiropractor I ended up seeing to fix my neck (couldn't turn my head more than 20 degrees left for years). We checked out one who's receptionist went on a spiel about dietetics and holistic medicine, and walked away. Then we found a guy who was just about, y'know, fixing vertebrae alignment. Two sessions of neck manipulation and that was it, no insistence on continued treatment beyond fixing the problem.
I've seen chiropractors who were fucking awesome because they fixed my back/neck pain, and others because they were all into supplements and homeopathy and "weekly adjustments".
My conclusion: chiropractic adjustment is not complete bullshit, but there is a lot of complete bullshit rolled up into most chiropractor training.
Reflexologists can fuck right off, though.
If your discipline talks about energy and you're not some kind of engineer or physicist, you will all be thrown out the airlock with no regrets.
Quote from: Cain on August 29, 2014, 08:22:07 PM
Reflexologists can fuck right off, though.
If your discipline talks about energy and you're not some kind of engineer or physicist, you will all be thrown out the airlock with no regrets.
:lulz:
Or maintenance techs. I'd hate to space one of my electricians for saying "energy isolation".
Quote from: Cain on August 29, 2014, 08:22:07 PM
Reflexologists can fuck right off, though.
If your discipline talks about energy and you're not some kind of engineer or physicist, you will all be thrown out the airlock with no regrets.
Saw an article once, wish I knew what to google, in which a Reiki healer EMPLOYED BY THE NHS was caught lulling his patients long enough that they were relaxed enough for him to fuck off into the corner and read the Sun for an hour.
If that was me? I'd have just been like "Yeah, I'm just THAT GOOD. I can operate on my dudes from this distance, and multitask at the same time."
Quote from: Slyph on August 30, 2014, 12:01:15 AM
Quote from: Cain on August 29, 2014, 08:22:07 PM
Reflexologists can fuck right off, though.
If your discipline talks about energy and you're not some kind of engineer or physicist, you will all be thrown out the airlock with no regrets.
Saw an article once, wish I knew what to google, in which a Reiki healer EMPLOYED BY THE NHS was caught lulling his patients long enough that they were relaxed enough for him to fuck off into the corner and read the Sun for an hour.
If that was me? I'd have just been like "Yeah, I'm just THAT GOOD. I can operate on my dudes from this distance, and multitask at the same time."
Reiki healer EMPLOYED BY THE NHSReiki healer EMPLOYED BY THE NHSReiki healer EMPLOYED BY THE NHSOkay, fuck this planet - I want off :argh!:
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on August 30, 2014, 07:05:51 AM
Quote from: Slyph on August 30, 2014, 12:01:15 AM
Quote from: Cain on August 29, 2014, 08:22:07 PM
Reflexologists can fuck right off, though.
If your discipline talks about energy and you're not some kind of engineer or physicist, you will all be thrown out the airlock with no regrets.
Saw an article once, wish I knew what to google, in which a Reiki healer EMPLOYED BY THE NHS was caught lulling his patients long enough that they were relaxed enough for him to fuck off into the corner and read the Sun for an hour.
If that was me? I'd have just been like "Yeah, I'm just THAT GOOD. I can operate on my dudes from this distance, and multitask at the same time."
Reiki healer EMPLOYED BY THE NHS
Reiki healer EMPLOYED BY THE NHS
Reiki healer EMPLOYED BY THE NHS
Okay, fuck this planet - I want off :argh!:
You appear to be in pain, dear. Here, try a nice hot sweet cup of tea and some evidence.
http://www.cancerresearchuk.org/cancer-help/about-cancer/treatment/complementary-alternative/therapies/reiki
Is reiki an all singing, all dancing panacea? Is it fuck. But it does seem to have some utility in the treatment regimes of people going through particular challenges, like cancer treatments, or like actually just having cancer in itself. And if you still want off the planet there is probably a tablet for that. :wink:
I'd like my placebo effect to be woo-free, please.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on August 30, 2014, 01:52:13 PM
I'd like my placebo effect to be woo-free, please.
I take your point, but I can't off hand imagine anything which would produce the sort of
impact, for want of a better term, as the medicinal attention and personalised relaxation that therapies such as reiki demonstrably can produce. And if you think that you can then just go right ahead because there is obviously a huge untapped market out there for therapies which can be shown to be even marginally effective.
You could stop working for the man and be your own bosss
I don't know about all this naysaying. I can't say I have a doctorate or that I've published any papers in "real" journals, but I know that a strict regimen combining meditation, homeopathic treatments, and antibiotics can cure pneumonia.
:lulz:
Quote from: V3X on September 03, 2014, 06:04:24 AM
I don't know about all this naysaying. I can't say I have a doctorate or that I've published any papers in "real" journals, but I know that a strict regimen combining meditation, homeopathic treatments, and antibiotics can cure pneumonia.
Ok I gotta admit i did laugh first :lol:
but then I googled:
QuoteFarm Antibiotics May Be Linked to Food Allergies
U.S. News & World Report - 49 minutes ago
WEDNESDAY, Sept. 3, 2014 (HealthDay News) -- Allergic reactions to food are a concern for millions of Americans, and now a study suggests there's a potential new player on the immunology front: Some people may be allergic to the antibiotics used to keep pests away from fruits and vegetables.
The study profiles the case of a 10-year-old girl who had a severe allergic reaction after eating blueberry pie. She suffered from asthma, seasonal allergies and allergies to milk and penicillin, but nothing in the pie seemed like a likely culprit.
The researchers determined that the problem was a blueberry that had been treated with streptomycin, an antibiotic that's used in people to fight off germs and in plants to keep bacteria, fungi and algae at bay. .
The researchers determined that the problem was a blueberry that had been treated with streptomycin, an antibiotic that's used in people to fight off germs and in plants to keep bacteria, fungi and algae at bay.
"As far as we know, this is the first report that links an allergic reaction to fruits treated with antibiotic pesticides," said allergist Dr. Anne Des Roches, the lead author of the study published in the September issue of Annals of Allergy, Asthma and Immunology.
"Certain European countries ban the use of antibiotics for growing foods, but the United States and Canada still allow them for agricultural purposes," Des Roches said in a journal news release.
QuoteCDC Threat Report: 'We Will Soon Be in a Post-Antibiotic Era'
BY MARYN MCKENNA 09.16.13
Wired -
Sep 2013
The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has just published a first-of-its-kind assessment of the threat the country faces from antibiotic-resistant organisms, ranking them by the number of illnesses and deaths they cause each year and outlining urgent steps that need to be taken to roll back the trend.
The agency's overall — and, it stressed, conservative — assessment of the problem:
Each year, in the U.S., 2,049,442 illnesses caused by bacteria and fungi that are resistant to at least some classes of antibiotics;
Each year, out of those illnesses, 23,000 deaths;
Because of those illnesses and deaths, $20 billion each year in additional healthcare spending;
And beyond the direct healthcare costs, an additional $35 billion lost to society in foregone productivity.
"If we are not careful, we will soon be in a post-antibiotic era," Dr. Tom Frieden, the CDC's director, said in a media briefing. "And for some patients and for some microbes, we are already there."
QuoteAre you ready for a world without antibiotics?
The Guardian -
Aug 2010
Antibiotics are a bedrock of modern medicine. But in the very near future, we're going to have to learn to live without them once again. And it's going to get nasty.
QuoteBBC News - Antibiotics resistance 'as big a risk as terrorism ...
www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-21737844
11 Mar 2013 - The danger posed by growing resistance to antibiotics should be ranked along with terrorism on a list of threats to the nation, the government's chief medical officer for England has said.
Professor Dame Sally Davies described it as a "ticking time bomb".
She warned that routine operations could become deadly in just 20 years if we lose the ability to fight infection.
Google antibiotic; you don't even need to put in 'news' or 'resistance' or 'problem', just plain old 'antibiotic'. These were out of the first ten hits. So you might want to polish up your meditation skills cos it looks like, in the medium term, that's about all we are going to have left. Only good thing from my pov is I'll probably be dead by then so my total lack of meditation abilities isn't going to negatively impact my declining years. :lol:
They were your first ten hits because most of your searches are "crystal healing" and "roswell cover up"
My first ten were NHS, wikipedia then a bunch of scientific papers on new developments
About reiki and making money.
You have to think about what you are doing to other human beings.
I have thought about that very thing for, like, 11 years.
There are two basic viewpoints on the money aspect here in the west. The first is the notion spread by this woman: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawayo_Takata
She was, in my opinion based on historical accuracy, a liar and a snake oil seller to the core. She was the one who fabricated a story about the founder of the Buddhist practice that was made into a healing technique being a Christian. She also created the notion that for an attunement (lol) at the first level should cost $1000, the second $5000, and the master level $10,000. In the 50's. Oh and BTW it cured her cancer.
The second take on reiki and money is from the countless people it has spread to, mostly hippies and crystal rubbers who feel that, as it's free super magic from everywhere, it should not cost anything. Especially considering, you know, the lack of direct, uh, labor involved.
This, of course, naturally angers reiki practitioners because their market rate is at an average of about $60-$120 per hour, depending on the depth of spiritual wisdom possessed whatever asshole is taking your money. And that's just not fair, giving it away. Not to mention the long and involved story about how Usui healed a city of beggars and they did not value it because begging was easier and, well, you get the idea.
Built into this system is not JUST a phony quack practice that DOES have legitimate effects on stress and I believe has something to do with things that are not magic, but also a simple and effectve method for removing monies from their owners.
Now, like I said, I have been thinking about this, and I believe I have come up with an acceptable business model.
Step 1:
Charge slightly above average market rates.
Step 2:
Give half of all profits to charity.
Step 3:
Profit from the smug satisfaction of being better than other reiki people at their own game, both morally and financially.
THINK OF THE DEDUCTIONS!
Which, I think, is what reiki is all about.
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on September 03, 2014, 06:08:03 PM
They were your first ten hits because most of your searches are "crystal healing" and "roswell cover up"
My first ten were NHS, wikipedia then a bunch of scientific papers on new developments
I didn't know Google worked like that. Explains all the pornography though.
Nothing explains that much pornography.
Get help man. Get help.
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on September 03, 2014, 06:08:03 PM
They were your first ten hits because most of your searches are "crystal healing" and "roswell cover up"
My first ten were NHS, wikipedia then a bunch of scientific papers on new developments
:lulz:
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on September 03, 2014, 06:08:03 PM
They were your first ten hits because most of your searches are "crystal healing" and "roswell cover up"
My first ten were NHS, wikipedia then a bunch of scientific papers on new developments
I am laughing my socks off because you couldn't be more wrong, or more gratuitously offensive.
I do however subscribe to a number of news sites and these were newsy results. Point to you though because I didn't know that was how google worked either. Well I guess I probably subconsciously did because its becoming increasingly creepy how it knows what I want to search for before I do
Good way to avoid my point though.
Quote from: MMIX on September 03, 2014, 08:09:55 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on September 03, 2014, 06:08:03 PM
They were your first ten hits because most of your searches are "crystal healing" and "roswell cover up"
My first ten were NHS, wikipedia then a bunch of scientific papers on new developments
I am laughing my socks off because you couldn't be more wrong, or more gratuitously offensive.
I do however subscribe to a number of news sites and these were newsy results. Point to you though because I didn't know that was how google worked either. Well I guess I probably subconsciously did because its becoming increasingly creepy how it knows what I want to search for before I do
Good way to avoid my point though.
I agree that overuse and misuse of antibiotics is a problem, and the prevalence of such is not helping in the medical arms race to combat rapidly evolving antibiotic resistant disease. But I don't think it follows that alternative therapies such as reiki and homeopathy are the answer. Instead, how about investing in more teachers of math and science and making it possible for people of any socio-economic background to pursue careers in the medical field?
For the record, Google is analysing and learning everything about you. If you're tinfoil hat wearer then my advice would be - steer well clear - this is not the droid you're looking for. I, on the other hand, am more than happy for my exocortex to know me better than I do. It's not much use to me otherwise.
And, yeah - overprescription of antibiotics has led us to A) piss weak immune systems/ herd immunity and B) superstrains of drug resistant pathogens but we're currently so close to programmable, targetted molecules with a rapid turnaroud that it's going to cease to be an issue in the next couple of years. Antibiotics did a lot of good for humanity, back in the day. We're locked in an arms race. It'll lalways be that way.
[quote author=N̠̳̘͓̠͓ͦ ͔ ̓̽̃ ̳̦̳͗E̮̜̱͇͗̿ͭ ̮̽̇ͮͦ ̞̲̼̪ ͇̳̤̥͖͕̀ͬ͊T̰ link=topic=36760.msg1355634#msg1355634 date=1409773524]
Quote from: MMIX on September 03, 2014, 08:09:55 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on September 03, 2014, 06:08:03 PM
They were your first ten hits because most of your searches are "crystal healing" and "roswell cover up"
My first ten were NHS, wikipedia then a bunch of scientific papers on new developments
I am laughing my socks off because you couldn't be more wrong, or more gratuitously offensive.
I do however subscribe to a number of news sites and these were newsy results. Point to you though because I didn't know that was how google worked either. Well I guess I probably subconsciously did because its becoming increasingly creepy how it knows what I want to search for before I do
Good way to avoid my point though.
I agree that overuse and misuse of antibiotics is a problem, and the prevalence of such is not helping in the medical arms race to combat rapidly evolving antibiotic resistant disease. But I don't think it follows that alternative therapies such as reiki and homeopathy are the answer. Instead, how about investing in more teachers of math and science and making it possible for people of any socio-economic background to pursue careers in the medical field?
[/quote]
Sounds good. Except that without massive investment from the
For Profit Pharmaceuticals Juggernaut or shuffling cash from the Miltary budgets of the
Mine's Bigger Than Yours politicos of the world no amount of newly trained medical researchers are going to make a difference. They will follow the money because that is where the research gets done, at the cash point- the point where the cash will generate profit. If we are hugely lucky, then there
may be a new family of antibacterials develped before we collapse back into medieval helplessness, but if there is then we will frankly have been more lucky than we deserve to be.
I don't think anyone is claiming [well nobody rational anyhow] that "Woo" however you care to define it is the answer to our problems. It seems to me that refusing to accept whatever benefits - and there are some demonstrable benefits - from things like reiki or homeopathy or any other ridiculous / superstitious / eccentric practices which trigger the placebo effect is like throwing out the baby with the bathwater. I hope that someone puts the effort into studying the placebo effect and harnessing its results, but lets just repeat this once more for effevt:- there is no money for Big Pharma in sugar pills and touchy-feelin therapies so don't expect them to either help or not hinder any research efforts.
ps it just occurred to me what a weird nickname Big Pharma is. Its one of those homonym things but it sounds likeBig Farmer.
also Your new avatar - it is designed to cause madness, blindness & incontinence isn't it?
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on September 03, 2014, 09:15:59 PM
For the record, Google is analysing and learning everything about you. If you're tinfoil hat wearer then my advice would be - steer well clear - this is not the droid you're looking for. I, on the other hand, am more than happy for my exocortex to know me better than I do. It's not much use to me otherwise.
And, yeah - overprescription of antibiotics has led us to A) piss weak immune systems/ herd immunity and B) superstrains of drug resistant pathogens but we're currently so close to programmable, targetted molecules with a rapid turnaroud that it's going to cease to be an issue in the next couple of years. Antibiotics did a lot of good for humanity, back in the day. We're locked in an arms race. It'll lalways be that way.
You know that thing that Nigel keeps saying about not assuming that you are always getting the full picture when you read edited highlights about cutting edge research? Well I agree with her. Double ditto if you [generically
you not you personally] are reading actual research papers unless you are the target audience. The only bit of that that I actually agree with is the arms race bit. Like I said up-thread I'm really glad I'm closer to the grave than the cradle.
Quote from: MMIX on September 03, 2014, 09:28:49 PM
Quote from: N ~̴̰̗̅͌E̽͑ͪ҉͉̻̞̟͇̻̟~̨̞̲̮̜͆ͮ̄͆ͮ͐ T on September 03, 2014, 08:45:24 PM
Quote from: MMIX on September 03, 2014, 08:09:55 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on September 03, 2014, 06:08:03 PM
They were your first ten hits because most of your searches are "crystal healing" and "roswell cover up"
My first ten were NHS, wikipedia then a bunch of scientific papers on new developments
I am laughing my socks off because you couldn't be more wrong, or more gratuitously offensive.
I do however subscribe to a number of news sites and these were newsy results. Point to you though because I didn't know that was how google worked either. Well I guess I probably subconsciously did because its becoming increasingly creepy how it knows what I want to search for before I do
Good way to avoid my point though.
I agree that overuse and misuse of antibiotics is a problem, and the prevalence of such is not helping in the medical arms race to combat rapidly evolving antibiotic resistant disease. But I don't think it follows that alternative therapies such as reiki and homeopathy are the answer. Instead, how about investing in more teachers of math and science and making it possible for people of any socio-economic background to pursue careers in the medical field?
Sounds good. Except that without massive investment from the For Profit Pharmaceuticals Juggernaut or shuffling cash from the Miltary budgets of the Mine's Bigger Than Yours politicos of the world no amount of newly trained medical researchers are going to make a difference. They will follow the money because that is where the research gets done, at the cash point- the point where the cash will generate profit. If we are hugely lucky, then there may be a new family of antibacterials develped before we collapse back into medieval helplessness, but if there is then we will frankly have been more lucky than we deserve to be.
I don't think anyone is claiming [well nobody rational anyhow] that "Woo" however you care to define it is the answer to our problems. It seems to me that refusing to accept whatever benefits - and there are some demonstrable benefits - from things like reiki or homeopathy or any other ridiculous / superstitious / eccentric practices which trigger the placebo effect is like throwing out the baby with the bathwater. I hope that someone puts the effort into studying the placebo effect and harnessing its results, but lets just repeat this once more for effevt:- there is no money for Big Pharma in sugar pills and touchy-feelin therapies so don't expect them to either help or not hinder any research efforts.
ps it just occurred to me what a weird nickname Big Pharma is. Its one of those homonym things but it sounds likeBig Farmer.
I see we're actually in agreement for the most part.
I just think that validating the legitimacy of woo-based therapy further erodes interest in grappling with Big Pharma. It seems like the more people get psychologically invested in woo, the more imperative it becomes for them to reject anything based in science. It also makes it easier to dismiss critics of pharmaceutical profiteers as cranks and whackos.
I do think that with vastly increased access to education that people will see Big Pharma for what it is—a predatory leech on society. I'm not talking about just funneling people into the existing industry, I'm talking about people having enough education to understand how their getting screwed out of their money and changing the system.
Placebo based therapy does hold a lot of promise, but it still involves sorting out a very tangled mess of ethical questions in administering it, even assuming that we could fix the profiteering disaster.
edit: testing to fix broken quote function
Quote from: MMIX on September 03, 2014, 09:28:49 PM
also Your new avatar - it is designed to cause madness, blindness & incontinence isn't it?
8)
My new username also broke the quote function, but I think I fixed it while retaining its terrible glory.
[quote author=N ~̝͓̙͍̫͈̪̠͌̀͘͝E͛ͬͪͩ͆ͦ͑͏̘~̴͇͇̳̲͈͙͚̜͑͆͆̃̄ͯ̍̚͠ T link=topic=36760.msg1355644#msg1355644 date=1409778503]
Quote from: MMIX on September 03, 2014, 09:28:49 PM
also Your new avatar - it is designed to cause madness, blindness & incontinence isn't it?
8)
My new username also broke the quote function, but I think I fixed it while retaining its terrible glory.
[/quote]
Terrible Glory!!!! hmmmm yep that has a nice ring to it. Also I don't want to sound alarmist but bits of your
avatar new username seem to be crawling out and curling up in strange places . . .
Anyhow, the problem I have with people reacting to the whole concept of "woo" is that you can hear the sepulchral clang of minds closing or the fairy farts of minds opening so they are dribbling out of folks ears. I normally regard LMNO for example as quite an open-minded sort of cove. But upthread his reaction to "woo" indicates a real blind spot to potentialities. Until the jury is finally in and we have a definitive verdict on just what the hell is happening when people get positive benefits from "therapies" which aren't scientifically explicable there has to be enough wiggleroom to allow us to actually investigate fully. That's all I'm saying. And it seems to me [YMMV] that we need not so be so quick to scoff until we actually have the evidence we need to be sure we are not missing something important but which is maybe not obvious or maybe counter intuitive.
Actually I've been thinking about this whole "woo" thing and the thing that really makes me uncomfortable is if there actually needs to be "woo" to make the effect work. If that turns out to be the case then I guess all bets are off
edit for getting mucking fords wuddled
For fuck's sake.
Look at the functional aspect of Reiki. Acknowledge the suffering of others. Help them relax. Pay attention to them. Get them to pay attention to their own bodies. Create a somatic feedback loop. Encourage their positive feelings. All of this has been shown to improve the mental and physical health of patients.
PLEASE NOTE NONE OF THE ABOVE NEEDS TO BE EXPLAINED BY PHANTOM MYSTICAL ENERGIES, NONE OF WHICH ARE EVEN BOTHERED TO BE EXPLAINED OR EVEN TESTED BY SCIENTIFIC PRINCIPLES, CHANNELED BY A GURU THAT COST SHITLOADS OF CASH.
It's kind of weird I have to explain that.
Quote from: MMIX on September 03, 2014, 11:25:30 PM
Quote from: N E̽͑ͪ҉͉̻̞̟͇̻̟ T on September 03, 2014, 10:08:23 PM
Quote from: MMIX on September 03, 2014, 09:28:49 PM
also Your new avatar - it is designed to cause madness, blindness & incontinence isn't it?
8)
My new username also broke the quote function, but I think I fixed it while retaining its terrible glory.
Terrible Glory!!!! hmmmm yep that has a nice ring to it. Also I don't want to sound alarmist but bits of your avatar seem to be crawling out and curling up in strange places . . .
Anyhow, the problem I have with people reacting to the whole concept of "woo" is that you can hear the sepulchral clang of minds closing or the fairy farts of minds opening so they are dribbling out of folks ears. I normally regard LMNO for example as quite an open-minded sort of cove. But upthread his reaction to "woo" indicates a real blind spot to potentialities. Until the jury is finally in and we have a definitive verdict on just what the hell is happening when people get positive benefits from "therapies" which aren't scientifically explicable there has to be enough wiggleroom to allow us to actually investigate fully. That's all I'm saying. And it seems to me [YMMV] that we need not so be so quick to scoff until we actually have the evidence we need to be sure we are not missing something important but which is maybe not obvious or maybe counter intuitive.
Actually I've been thinking about this whole "woo" thing and the thing that really makes me uncomfortable is if there actually needs to be "woo" to make the effect work. If that turns out to be the case then I guess all bets are off
I think we agree, in that woo methods may provide tangible measurable benefits through non-woo biological processes that we don't understand. I think the risk is getting so psychologically invested in woo beliefs that the consequences can be far costlier than the benefits, e.g., believing the woo worked when it hadn't and a treatable condition deteriorates beyond repair. Chapel perilous and all that jazz.
One of my biology professors from a long while back said something that stuck with me. It was something to the effect of "We know for a fact that cells communicate with one another, but we hardly know how they do it." I don't think it's inconceivable that your thoughts alone can directly affect your biology, probably quite a bit more than just causing changes in mood. And even then, I think there's evidence that the long term aggregate of our moods can have dramatic effects on our organs—stress hormones especially.
I still find the subject absolutely fascinating, though I doubt neuroscience will remotely start to scrape the surface of it in my lifetime.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on September 03, 2014, 11:36:44 PM
For fuck's sake.
Look at the functional aspect of Reiki. Acknowledge the suffering of others. Help them relax. Pay attention to them. Get them to pay attention to their own bodies. Create a somatic feedback loop. Encourage their positive feelings. All of this has been shown to improve the mental and physical health of patients.
PLEASE NOTE NONE OF THE ABOVE NEEDS TO BE EXPLAINED BY PHANTOM MYSTICAL ENERGIES, NONE OF WHICH ARE EVEN BOTHERED TO BE EXPLAINED OR EVEN TESTED BY SCIENTIFIC PRINCIPLES, CHANNELED BY A GURU THAT COST SHITLOADS OF CASH.
It's kind of weird I have to explain that.
Yes, I hear your pain.
also if you weren't too pissed off to actually read it I did say
QuoteActually I've been thinking about this whole "woo" thing and the thing that really makes me
[edit for emphasis] REALLY
Quoteuncomfortable is if there actually needs to be "woo" to make the effect work. If that turns out to be the case then I guess all bets are off
Thing is not everybody sees the world in the way you do. I don't suppose I need to point out to you that you live in a country where somewhere in the region of 80% of your compatriots have an invisible friend who they turn to for succour and relief and who they believe takes an up-close and personal interest in everything they do. The whole "woo" thing is so tightly wound into the structure of life that to try and compartmentalise "woo-based" therapies seems to be like trying to swat a ladybug while there is a hornets nest in the middle of the room.
My mother was a radiographer, my father was an industrial chemist, my cousin is a GP, my uncle was a medical photographer, 3 of my sisters in law are nurses of various specialisms, my aunt was a senior nursing officer involved in hygiene research, I originally trained as a therapeutic radiographer and later as a behavioural scientist. OK, none of us ever tried to knock some scientific sense into Dubya's administration but we are not by nature or training a "woo based" family. Point being, I think you have a tendency to not listen when the whole "woo" thing comes up. So, no, you don't have to explain the scientific shortcomings of reiki, I get it, I hear what you are saying and on some level I totally agree with you. However unless and until we understand the placebo effect the book cannot be closed on these sorts of practices. Or trance healing, or psychic surgery, or the vast range of other weird shit that people believe.
And I think that that is why I call myself discordian. I can look at things with wonder and be intrigued by them without feeling the need to believe in them. I think in the long run that is a pretty sound basis for dealing with the unbelieveable amount of unbelieveable things people have generated
[quote author=N ·̤̻͉͕̋̀͂ ̰ͦ̀͢E̳̭̻̙̥͖̦̐̔͡ ̷̱̞̠̠̮͎͈·̾̈͗̇ͪ͋ͨ T link=topic=36760.msg1355654#msg1355654 date=1409785215]
I think the risk is getting so psychologically invested in woo ANY beliefs that the consequences can be far costlier than the benefits, e.g., believing the woo X worked when it hadn't and a treatable condition deteriorates beyond repair. Chapel perilous and all that jazz.
[/quote] fixxored!
Now I couldn't agree more. And elevating science to a special position where we refuse to believe that it is anything other than pristine and rational is the most dangerous thing of all. The thing about science is that it is performed by human beings; and we all know what a bunch of hyped-up hominids they are.
Quote from: MMIX on September 04, 2014, 01:26:00 AM
Quote from: N E T on September 04, 2014, 12:00:15 AM
I think the risk is getting so psychologically invested in woo ANY beliefs that the consequences can be far costlier than the benefits, e.g., believing the woo X worked when it hadn't and a treatable condition deteriorates beyond repair. Chapel perilous and all that jazz.
fixxored!
Now I couldn't agree more. And elevating science to a special position where we refuse to believe that it is anything other than pristine and rational is the most dangerous thing of all. The thing about science is that it is performed by human beings; and we all know what a bunch of hyped-up hominids they are.
It is a special position, because though imperfect, it's usually the best bet. It's certainly not pristine and perfect, and rife with profiteering scumbags, but when push comes to shove I'm going to see a medical doctor not a witch doctor.
The testable, reproducible nature of science helps catch fuck ups. Woo often necessarily requires not getting a second opinion and requires complete buy-in, explicitly rejecting skeptical inquiry and testing.
Quote from: MMIX on September 04, 2014, 12:52:47 AM
I don't suppose I need to point out to you that you live in a country where somewhere in the region of 80% of your compatriots have an invisible friend who they turn to for succour and relief and who they believe takes an up-close and personal interest in everything they do. The whole "woo" thing is so tightly wound into the structure of life that to try and compartmentalise "woo-based" therapies seems to be like trying to swat a ladybug while there is a hornets nest in the middle of the room.
Most major religions don't explicitly forbid skeptical inquiry and testing, while many woo peddlers do.
Quote from: N E T on September 04, 2014, 02:25:14 AM
Quote from: MMIX on September 04, 2014, 12:52:47 AM
I don't suppose I need to point out to you that you live in a country where somewhere in the region of 80% of your compatriots have an invisible friend who they turn to for succour and relief and who they believe takes an up-close and personal interest in everything they do. The whole "woo" thing is so tightly wound into the structure of life that to try and compartmentalise "woo-based" therapies seems to be like trying to swat a ladybug while there is a hornets nest in the middle of the room.
Most major religions don't explicitly forbid skeptical inquiry and testing, while many woo peddlers do.
Yep the Catholic church for example is really committed to skeptical investigations of miracles in its attempt to stop itself making unworthy saints. And the less said about that probably the better. And woo peddlers can be equally dastardly in pursuit of big bucks and reputation. NB I am also including the major religions in that rather broad church of "Woo peddlers". The point I'm trying to make is that the very existence of such a high levels of religious belief worldwide normalises "woo" within societies. Even in Britain where levels of religious affiliation are much lower and we probably seem like a godless desert to the US we still have 60% Xtian 5% Muslim and smaller communities of Sikhs, Hindus, Jews & Buddhists. Correct me if I'm wrong but the impression I get from reading the forum is that even discordians seem to regard individual religious practice as just a private thing which is nobody's business but the practitioner's. I see religion as being something which ties individuals into networks of "woo" and hence in my perception is that religion is an intensely social and communal activity. That is the contrast I am trying to highlight, the contrast between the relatively harmless ladybugs. Yes they have poisonous knees and make you a bit uncomfortablew if you are really, really unlucky, but don't get hung up on the ladybug and ignore the hornets nest, cos that fucker is a much more serious prospect.
edit to insert missing word
Woo is always bullshit. That said, woo can sometimes be useful in the same way that other kinds of bullshit can be useful. Like when kids get excited about Santa Claus, or when voters get excited about Barack Obama. The fact that it is bullshit has no bearing on whether or not it influences the placebo effect, which is demonstrably not bullshit.
Quote from: V3X on September 04, 2014, 03:51:25 AM
Woo is always bullshit. That said, woo can sometimes be useful in the same way that other kinds of bullshit can be useful. Like when kids get excited about Santa Claus, or when voters get excited about Barack Obama. The fact that it is bullshit has no bearing on whether or not it influences the placebo effect, which is demonstrably not bullshit.
What is even more interesting is that you can tell people they are taking a placebo (and explain what a placebo is) and they will still respond positively to it. Possibly due to mental cues based on the setting and practice of being given "medication" lowering stress levels and allowing the body to more effectively fight off infection than it would otherwise.
But research on placebos is strange and contradictary at the best of times.
Quote from: Cain on September 04, 2014, 08:14:12 AM
Quote from: V3X on September 04, 2014, 03:51:25 AM
Woo is always bullshit. That said, woo can sometimes be useful in the same way that other kinds of bullshit can be useful. Like when kids get excited about Santa Claus, or when voters get excited about Barack Obama. The fact that it is bullshit has no bearing on whether or not it influences the placebo effect, which is demonstrably not bullshit.
What is even more interesting is that you can tell people they are taking a placebo (and explain what a placebo is) and they will still respond positively to it. Possibly due to mental cues based on the setting and practice of being given "medication" lowering stress levels and allowing the body to more effectively fight off infection than it would otherwise.
But research on placebos is strange and contradictary at the best of times.
If I was young and looking for a worthwhile area to research the placebo effect would certainly be high on my hit list. Any area which offers both strange AND contradictory has got to be an interesting way to go
I've been saying for years the placebo effect is interesting. It's unfortunate that it manifests in the form of a "gotcha" and is readily dismissed by saying "yes but it's not real, it's just the placebo effect" as if this negates the fact that the patient improved. "Yes his tumor disappeared but it was placebo so it doesn't count"
Would be pretty neat to be able to harness it without the need to hoodwink the recipient.
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on September 04, 2014, 10:48:25 AM
I've been saying for years the placebo effect is interesting. It's unfortunate that it manifests in the form of a "gotcha" and is readily dismissed by saying "yes but it's not real, it's just the placebo effect" as if this negates the fact that the patient improved. "Yes his tumor disappeared but it was placebo so it doesn't count"
Would be pretty neat to be able to harness it without the need to hoodwink the recipient.
Amen brother P3nT, preach that truth!
Quote from: Cain on September 04, 2014, 08:14:12 AM
Quote from: V3X on September 04, 2014, 03:51:25 AM
Woo is always bullshit. That said, woo can sometimes be useful in the same way that other kinds of bullshit can be useful. Like when kids get excited about Santa Claus, or when voters get excited about Barack Obama. The fact that it is bullshit has no bearing on whether or not it influences the placebo effect, which is demonstrably not bullshit.
What is even more interesting is that you can tell people they are taking a placebo (and explain what a placebo is) and they will still respond positively to it. Possibly due to mental cues based on the setting and practice of being given "medication" lowering stress levels and allowing the body to more effectively fight off infection than it would otherwise.
But research on placebos is strange and contradictary at the best of times.
I think it's miss-attributed to routine of medication at all. The effect is mental, the cause is with the patient. The act of the conscious mind making the decision to get better, triggers subroutines associated with self repair in mind that otherwise may be dulled or confused or prioritizing other tasks (like worrying about work when you should be sleeping). I wouldn't even call it a healing process, more of an optimization of the existing healing system.
You push the command to get better from a cold down the chain, the body can do that.
You push the command to get better from a severed leg down the chain and the body is going to look at you funny. You're not getting the leg back but you might get some pain relief out it.
Quote from: Faust on September 04, 2014, 11:23:40 AM
Quote from: Cain on September 04, 2014, 08:14:12 AM
Quote from: V3X on September 04, 2014, 03:51:25 AM
Woo is always bullshit. That said, woo can sometimes be useful in the same way that other kinds of bullshit can be useful. Like when kids get excited about Santa Claus, or when voters get excited about Barack Obama. The fact that it is bullshit has no bearing on whether or not it influences the placebo effect, which is demonstrably not bullshit.
What is even more interesting is that you can tell people they are taking a placebo (and explain what a placebo is) and they will still respond positively to it. Possibly due to mental cues based on the setting and practice of being given "medication" lowering stress levels and allowing the body to more effectively fight off infection than it would otherwise.
But research on placebos is strange and contradictary at the best of times.
A] I wouldn't even call it a healing process, more of an optimization of the existing healing system.
B] You push the command to get better from a cold down the chain, the body can do that.
C]You push the command to get better from a severed leg down the chain and the body is going to look at you funny. You're not getting the leg back but you might get some pain relief out it.
A]I think you're right about systems optimisation
B]I have a stinking summer cold/fluey thing going on. Maybe I need to learn to program #cos nothing I am doing consciously is making a blind bit of difference
C]And ghost limbs as well maybe
Ever since learning about Ketchum and the Edgewood Arsenal, I'm increasingly suspicious that all this kind of shit is actually being tested anyway, just in case.
I really hope I'm right as that will be a fucking awesome documentary.
Quote from: MMIX on September 04, 2014, 11:13:38 AM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on September 04, 2014, 10:48:25 AM
I've been saying for years the placebo effect is interesting. It's unfortunate that it manifests in the form of a "gotcha" and is readily dismissed by saying "yes but it's not real, it's just the placebo effect" as if this negates the fact that the patient improved. "Yes his tumor disappeared but it was placebo so it doesn't count"
Would be pretty neat to be able to harness it without the need to hoodwink the recipient.
Amen brother P3nT, preach that truth!
To me it makes sense. If the patient has a problem that is all in his head, doesn't it make sense that the cure should be also? Not things like broken legs obviously, but for things like anxiety, sometimes all it takes is to shift their mind into a more useful "mode"
Quote from: V3X on September 04, 2014, 03:51:25 AM
Woo is always bullshit. That said, woo can sometimes be useful in the same way that other kinds of bullshit can be useful. Like when kids get excited about Santa Claus, or when voters get excited about Barack Obama. The fact that it is bullshit has no bearing on whether or not it influences the placebo effect, which is demonstrably not bullshit.
Exactly. Precisely.