Okay, so this "Chapel Perilous" thing. Explain it, please, without jargon.
Because, for the life of me, I can't figure out what the fuck people are talking about. I see this shit all over TFYS and OKM, and everyone talks like it's a well-known definition.
I have no idea.
*googles*
Oh, it's RAW stuff. Tells you how much I paid attention to his fucking books.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapel_perilous
QuoteThe term first appeared in Sir Thomas Malory's Le Morte d'Arthur[2] as the setting for an adventure in which sorceress Hellawes unsuccessfully attempts to seduce Sir Lancelot, and was first used as an occult term by the late writer and philosopher Robert Anton Wilson (b. 1932 - d. 2007) in his book Cosmic Trigger. According to Wilson, being in this state leads the subject into becoming either stone paranoid or an agnostic. In his opinion there is no third way.
stone paranoid OR agnostic?
RAW really didn't get it sometimes, huh? :lulz:
Chapel Perilous is a metaphorical state where the individual is exposed to information that disagrees with their perception of reality. It could be spiritual (which is what Bob was discussing on the paranoid vs agnostic quote). It could also be philosophical, social or even physical. Chapel Perilous is different for different people. Some people enter and come out the other side, some enter, get confused and run back out the front door, some get lost forever in there and some stand at the door completely unaware that the Chapel is there.
In PD lingo, standing at the doorway (and realizing it) is like realizing that you're in a Black Iron Prison... when you realize that YOUR reality is not reality, but just your perceptions and beliefs based on your experiences in life. Those who enter and come out the other side are the ones that recognize that they can modify their BiP and then do it. Those who run back out the front door, are the people who can't deal with life in a BiP and go back to their old way of thinking because its safe... and the people that get lost forever in it, are the people that spend the rest of their lives trying to completely escape.
Chapel Perilous also has a metaphorical application for people that play with the occult. When you experiment with Magic and something works, thats the doorway to the Chapel. How you deal with that experience, how you allow that experience to shape your life, etc. all depends on how you deal with the Chapel. For a simple example, the 23 Enigma is an entrance to a Chapel Perilous. If you have the experience and learn from it (wow, I can teach my brain to recognize/focus on a specific pattern) then you escape out the exit. If, however, you lose your shit, think that 23 is really really mystical for realz, then you're trapped inside.
Bob discusses in in several of his books. He uses it to discuss his own experiences with the metaphysical (his year or so where Aliens from Sirius beamed messages into his head) and explain how he processed that experience without becoming a 'stone cold paranoid' or a 'true believer'. My favorite is the story of Fission Chips (from Illuminatus!) an MI6 agent that ends up completely mired in the absurd conspiracies going on around him. At one point he actually ends up in a little chapel, wherein all hell breaks loose, physically going through the Chapel, while also metaphorically going thorough the chapel.
Ok thats as jargon free as I can make it... hope it makes some sense.
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 10, 2011, 12:52:22 AM
Chapel Perilous is a metaphorical state where the individual is exposed to information that disagrees with their perception of reality.
Oh. Well, 99% of humanity is perfectly safe, then.
Thanks for the explanation. A lot of TFYS makes more sense now.
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 10, 2011, 12:52:22 AMthats as jargon free as I can make it
:lulz:
I'm sure glad you gave us the layman's version.
It's the moment just as Horror dawns, and you either stop thinking or act like a Doktor.
RAW-speak for a mid life crisis.
OR that. :lol:
I FOUND MYSELF AT CHAPEL PERILOUS - THE SUZUKI DEALERSHIP!
Thanks for this thread, the "Chapel Perilous" thing is a lot clearer to me now, as well :)
Quote from: Cain on May 10, 2011, 08:06:20 AM
RAW-speak for a mid life crisis.
Is it though? Cause that's what I always thought as well. But Rat's explanation makes it a bit more useful term.
What I used to think it means (though maybe you meant something else by "mid life crisis"), is that Chapel Perilous is this Long Dark Tea-Time of the Soul, a period of hardship, from which you, if you defeat it properly, can arise more "enlightened" (or whatever). Which (IMO) is part self-fulfilling prophecy, and part wishful thinking or a feeling of entitlement. The (story-telling and fairness-based) belief that one ought to be rewarded for their suffering.
But the way Rat explained it, it's not so much a time-period you must endure, but more of a situation you find yourself in. Or lose yourself in.
I'm not entirely sure about his paragraph that references PD's BIP, but that could also be cause I find myself a bit jaded with the metaphor by now*.
(I wanted to write more but I got distracted)
* FUCK that means we did it!! If I'm not the only one, that means the BIP is now Discordian scripture for really realness, as proven by PD.com jadedness :-P
Its just a catch all for any crisis of conscious, cosmic trigger was mostly waffle dressed up in occult analogies.
I just think that Thomas Mallory made a bunch of weird shit up and later-day psychologists and philosophers had no right taking weird shit from the Arthurian tales and making some sort of analogies or disorders out of them.
I'm consecrating my living room chair as siege perilous now. First person who brings me the grail can sit in it.
Chapel Perilous = An especially intense form of cognitive dissonance, one that is fairly difficult to resolve.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on May 10, 2011, 03:09:30 PM
Chapel Perilous = An especially intense form of cognitive dissonance, one that is fairly difficult to resolve.
See Rat? It
can be done!
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on May 10, 2011, 03:09:30 PM
Chapel Perilous = An especially intense form of cognitive dissonance, one that is fairly difficult to resolve.
BRAVO! :lulz:
Quote from: Cain on May 10, 2011, 08:06:20 AM
RAW-speak for a mid life crisis.
I disagree. In fact, when RAW discusses it he points out that you may go through the Chapel many times, not just once. Anytime reality rejects your perception of reality is a point where you might be entering Chapel Perilous.
Note to self: no joking anymore on the Discordian forums.
Also, the usage of Arthurian terminology has a lot to do with RAW's views on the mythology of the 'Hero's Journey' (Monomyth) inspired by Joseph Campbell, Jung and Crowley (as Crowley's interpretation of the tarot follows along the traditional momomyth), Of course, he also finds the same mythology in Joyce's, Finnegan's Wake.
This is actually (for me at least) one of the more interesting things I've picked up in reading all of these spags. :)
The basic story is repeated with different characters from Odysseus, Parsifal and Jesus through Luke Skywalker and Hiro Nakamura; the journey from Fool to Magus. Chapel Perilous, in different guises fits in almost all of these stories. So for example, Luke's experience in the Cave where he kills Vader/Himself is a trip through Chapel Perilous.
Campbell and by extension RAW tend to see the monomyth as a mythological description of the underlying human experience. That is we all begin as a Fool and MAY all end as the Magus and we may all go through Chapel Perilous on the way.
Quote from: Cain on May 10, 2011, 05:00:02 PM
Note to self: no joking anymore on the Discordian forums.
d'Oh sorry didn't catch it as a joke.
Quote from: Cain on May 10, 2011, 05:00:02 PM
Note to self: no joking anymore on the Discordian forums.
HIMEOBS
YOU CANNOT PEDANT ENOUGH.
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 10, 2011, 05:07:18 PM
Also, the usage of Arthurian terminology has a lot to do with RAW's views on the mythology of the 'Hero's Journey' (Monomyth) inspired by Joseph Campbell, Jung and Crowley (as Crowley's interpretation of the tarot follows along the traditional momomyth), Of course, he also finds the same mythology in Joyce's, Finnegan's Wake.
This is actually (for me at least) one of the more interesting things I've picked up in reading all of these spags. :)
The basic story is repeated with different characters from Odysseus, Parsifal and Jesus through Luke Skywalker and Hiro Nakamura; the journey from Fool to Magus. Chapel Perilous, in different guises fits in almost all of these stories. So for example, Luke's experience in the Cave where he kills Vader/Himself is a trip through Chapel Perilous.
Campbell and by extension RAW tend to see the monomyth as a mythological description of the underlying human experience. That is we all begin as a Fool and MAY all end as the Magus and we may all go through Chapel Perilous on the way.
As a random sidebar:
Becoming the Magus is a difficult thing. In Crowley's deck, for example, the Magus has spears, swords and other nasty stuff beneath his feet. This can be interpreted in two ways, the Magus may be powerful enough to tread over the physical threats, or the Magus may destroy that which he walks over, the swords etc slicing up his friends and those who care for him. This can be seen in the metaphor of Darth Vader, the Fallen Magus, or the Magus that was not properly prepared for his Chapel Perilous journey. Sylar, in the series Heroes also acts as the fallen Magus. In both of these cases, it was 'shrapnel' from their previous experiences in life that led to their downfall. Ani Skywalker's youth was as a slave, he was unable to save his mother and he was corrupted by Senator Palpatine. Sylar had a strange childhood, confusing Mommy issues and was screwed over by HRG.
In mythic terms RAW discusses it like this:
"if you go into that realm without the sword of reason, you will lose your mind, but at the same time, if you take only the sword of reason without the cup of sympathy, you will lose your heart. Even more remarkably, if you approach without the wand of intuition, you can stand at the door for decades never realizing you have arrived. You might think you are just waiting for a bus, or wandering from room to room looking for your cigarettes, watching a TV show, or reading a cryptic and ambiguous
book website. Chapel Perilous is tricky that way."
I'd almost say that re-imagining this mythology in more modern terms might be an interesting project. Campbell believed that the myth must always be updated and made useful for the current society. Otherwise, 'temples become museums'.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 10, 2011, 05:33:52 PM
Quote from: Cain on May 10, 2011, 05:00:02 PM
Note to self: no joking anymore on the Discordian forums.
HIMEOBS
YOU CANNOT PEDANT ENOUGH.
Actually, the vikings were
ALLIED to the Byzantine Empire.
Quote from: Payne on May 10, 2011, 05:36:06 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 10, 2011, 05:33:52 PM
Quote from: Cain on May 10, 2011, 05:00:02 PM
Note to self: no joking anymore on the Discordian forums.
HIMEOBS
YOU CANNOT PEDANT ENOUGH.
Actually, the vikings were ALLIED to the Byzantine Empire.
:lol:
Actually, though, I was thinking more along the lines of Requia, who couldn't get her head around the idea that I had been talking about what objectivists believe, without advocating those beliefs myself.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 10, 2011, 05:42:19 PM
Quote from: Payne on May 10, 2011, 05:36:06 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 10, 2011, 05:33:52 PM
Quote from: Cain on May 10, 2011, 05:00:02 PM
Note to self: no joking anymore on the Discordian forums.
HIMEOBS
YOU CANNOT PEDANT ENOUGH.
Actually, the vikings were ALLIED to the Byzantine Empire.
:lol:
Actually, though, I was thinking more along the lines of Requia, who couldn't get her head around the idea that I had been talking about what objectivists believe, without advocating those beliefs myself.
That too.
Pedantry is something I have to actively stop myself engaging in, but I reckon I do rather well really. I see it all over the place on PD though.
Quote from: Payne on May 10, 2011, 05:43:28 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 10, 2011, 05:42:19 PM
Quote from: Payne on May 10, 2011, 05:36:06 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 10, 2011, 05:33:52 PM
Quote from: Cain on May 10, 2011, 05:00:02 PM
Note to self: no joking anymore on the Discordian forums.
HIMEOBS
YOU CANNOT PEDANT ENOUGH.
Actually, the vikings were ALLIED to the Byzantine Empire.
:lol:
Actually, though, I was thinking more along the lines of Requia, who couldn't get her head around the idea that I had been talking about what objectivists believe, without advocating those beliefs myself.
That too.
Pedantry is something I have to actively stop myself engaging in, but I reckon I do rather well really. I see it all over the place on PD though.
No, only on certain subforums.
:lol:
Chapel Perilous = Trying to figure out some "pretty important shit dude" (life, death, reality, and so on) and most of the time failing at it.
Ok so.. Since my brain is s-l-o-w:
Is it like:
I beleive in x.
So and so proves x is wrong.
Now I either have to learn from this, or just go back to x anyway.
I R CONFUSED
Concept one: "I am a smart person who makes rational choices that betters my life."
Concept two: "I willingly partake in smoking, which has been proven to shorten and diminish the quality of my life" (if you're not a smoker, substitute a comparable self-destructive behavior).
Try to think about both thoughts simultaneously, without justifying, blaming, or otherwise ducking out of it.
Now, imagine that weird, uncomfortable feeling you get multiplied by about x1023. That's Chapel Perilous.
[Edit for exponential math geekery]
Quote from: *GrumpButt* on May 10, 2011, 08:33:57 PM
Ok so.. Since my brain is s-l-o-w:
Is it like:
I beleive in x.
So and so proves x is wrong.
Now I either have to learn from this, or just go back to x anyway.
I R CONFUSED
At its most basic, yep. More particularly if X is really really super important to your view of reality. So for example if you SRSLY SRS believe in X and the negation of X forces you to reevaluate your view of reality... then that's Chapel Perilous.
Also, LMNO riding the correct motorcycle as usual.
Oh ok.
Thanks :D
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on May 10, 2011, 08:43:58 PM
Concept one: "I am a smart person who makes rational choices that betters my life."
Concept two: "I willingly partake in smoking, which has been proven to shorten and diminish the quality of my life" (if you're not a smoker, substitute a comparable self-destructive behavior).
Try to think about both thoughts simultaneously, without justifying, blaming, or otherwise ducking out of it.
Now, imagine that weird, uncomfortable feeling you get multiplied by about x1023. That's Chapel Perilous.
[Edit for exponential math geekery]
A mole of confusion?
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 10, 2011, 08:51:14 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on May 10, 2011, 08:43:58 PM
Concept one: "I am a smart person who makes rational choices that betters my life."
Concept two: "I willingly partake in smoking, which has been proven to shorten and diminish the quality of my life" (if you're not a smoker, substitute a comparable self-destructive behavior).
Try to think about both thoughts simultaneously, without justifying, blaming, or otherwise ducking out of it.
Now, imagine that weird, uncomfortable feeling you get multiplied by about x1023. That's Chapel Perilous.
[Edit for exponential math geekery]
A mole of confusion?
Indeed: Because one's clarity gets spotty.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on May 10, 2011, 08:43:58 PM
Concept one: "I am a smart person who makes rational choices that betters my life."
Concept two: "I willingly partake in smoking, which has been proven to shorten and diminish the quality of my life" (if you're not a smoker, substitute a comparable self-destructive behavior).
Try to think about both thoughts simultaneously, without justifying, blaming, or otherwise ducking out of it.
Now, imagine that weird, uncomfortable feeling you get multiplied by about x1023. That's Chapel Perilous.
[Edit for exponential math geekery]
Sure fucker. Everybody always goes after the smokers. :argh!:
You guys are just the easiest targets, is all.
Hell, I could use my drinking habits as an example. But that might make me feel uncomfortable.
:wink:
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on May 10, 2011, 08:54:23 PM
You guys are just the easiest targets, is all.
Hell, I could use my drinking habits as an example. But that might make me feel uncomfortable.
:wink:
:lulz:
I keep hearing that smoking will take years off the end of my life...
And I see my grandmother... I only can get down to see her once a year, and every year, she's more lost. I'm not sure she knew who I was half the time I was there last year, and, according to my uncle, she may not know who we are when we visit this year, at all, assuming she knows we're there at all.
If it didn't make my breath and clothes smell like ash, I'd be tempted.
It just sounds like a paradox, to me.
Quote from: Suu the Infallible on May 10, 2011, 09:08:56 PM
It just sounds like a paradox, to me.
Chapel Perilous or the smoking question? :D
For CP, its more about the psychological effect of a major paradox between what you believe and what reality might toss you.
/tangent/
RAW does expand well beyond what I've done... for example, in a major visit to Chapel Perilous, individuals often come out the other side and claim to have experienced help from some 'external entity'. He points to guys like Crowley and his experience with AWISS, Moses and his burning bush, Phillip K Dick and his experiences that led to the novel VALIS, Harvy the Pooka and his own experience with Aliens from Sirius. (Or if we go back to the idea of the Monomyth with the Skywalkers, Luke has the 'voices' of Obi-wan and Yoda) He also tends toward pointing to people through the centuries that claimed they God or the Guardian Angels spoke to them. He gets into a whole tangent pointing to the similarities between people that have claimed a visit from Mary and people that have claimed a visit by Aliens... leading one to think that maybe those are 'masks' for the Thing.
In the end, he tends toward the idea that all of these are manifestations of the subconscious trying to steer you through the chapel.
/end tangent/
So... to boil it down to really simple...
You have a concept in your head. (Matter is mostly empty space, so most objects are not REAL.)
Something happens which proves your concept is wrong. (TGRR gently strokes your skull with the barstool.)
You now get to decide if your concept is really REAL, or if the "something" didn't happen, not REALLY. You either decide to accept the new reality (if it raises a lump on your skull, it's solid enough), ignore the incident and embrace a new delusion (it was really the testosterone flying from TGRR's head that caused you to swoon and bump your head), or sit there, holding your aching skull, rocking back and forth, trying to reconcile two impossible to reconcile things.
Do I have it?
Pretty much, except it's not just, "Oh, two contradictory ideas are in my head." You're missing the sheer existential terror (as in, fear for your very existence) that goes along with it. It's beyond the realm of intellect, this goes subverbal and subconscious. It's similar to a biosurvival threat, but there's no tiger to run away from.
I like this thread. And I feel I have been at the doorway of the Chapel Perilous way to fucking often in the last 9 years or so.
I also feel like I've finally started to accept I am a DOKTOR rather than a FALSE SLACKER...I just have yet to fully accept this fate.
My time will come, however.
Quote from: Luna on May 10, 2011, 08:59:32 PM
I keep hearing that smoking will take years off the end of my life...
And I see my grandmother... I only can get down to see her once a year, and every year, she's more lost. I'm not sure she knew who I was half the time I was there last year, and, according to my uncle, she may not know who we are when we visit this year, at all, assuming she knows we're there at all.
If it didn't make my breath and clothes smell like ash, I'd be tempted.
Kurt Vonnegut sued Pall Mall cigarettes later in his life for not killing him quick enough.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on May 11, 2011, 12:29:45 AM
Pretty much, except it's not just, "Oh, two contradictory ideas are in my head." You're missing the sheer existential terror (as in, fear for your very existence) that goes along with it. It's beyond the realm of intellect, this goes subverbal and subconscious. It's similar to a biosurvival threat, but there's no tiger to run away from.
I kinda thought I hit that point with TGRR skullsmacking you with a barstool. :wink:
Ok, what I'm getting about this is that it's a kind of crisis where everything you thought turns out to be wrong and the experience is intense enough to make people hallucinate guiding spirits and the like, but wikipedia has it that it's not being sure about the spirit itself, whether it's "real" or hallucination. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapel_perilous
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 10, 2011, 05:42:19 PM
Quote from: Payne on May 10, 2011, 05:36:06 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 10, 2011, 05:33:52 PM
Quote from: Cain on May 10, 2011, 05:00:02 PM
Note to self: no joking anymore on the Discordian forums.
HIMEOBS
YOU CANNOT PEDANT ENOUGH.
Actually, the vikings were ALLIED to the Byzantine Empire.
:lol:
Actually, though, I was thinking more along the lines of Requia, who couldn't get her head around the idea that I had been talking about what objectivists believe, without advocating those beliefs myself.
Uh no, I had no fucking clue how you came to the conclusion that Objectivists believed that.
Quote from: Requia ☣ on May 11, 2011, 05:38:18 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 10, 2011, 05:42:19 PM
Quote from: Payne on May 10, 2011, 05:36:06 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 10, 2011, 05:33:52 PM
Quote from: Cain on May 10, 2011, 05:00:02 PM
Note to self: no joking anymore on the Discordian forums.
HIMEOBS
YOU CANNOT PEDANT ENOUGH.
Actually, the vikings were ALLIED to the Byzantine Empire.
:lol:
Actually, though, I was thinking more along the lines of Requia, who couldn't get her head around the idea that I had been talking about what objectivists believe, without advocating those beliefs myself.
Uh no, I had no fucking clue how you came to the conclusion that Objectivists believed that.
You mean to say they
don't worship The Emperor from Warhammer 40K? And they
do believe in the colour red?
Pshaw, Roger is the best line, the straight dope, on what people actually believe around here.
Antero Alli talks about the chapel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yk2osyjDqtQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yk2osyjDqtQ)
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on May 11, 2011, 05:00:24 AM
Ok, what I'm getting about this is that it's a kind of crisis where everything you thought turns out to be wrong and the experience is intense enough to make people hallucinate guiding spirits and the like, but wikipedia has it that it's not being sure about the spirit itself, whether it's "real" or hallucination. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapel_perilous
That is a terrible entry on Chapel Perilous :D
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 11, 2011, 03:11:28 PM
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on May 11, 2011, 05:00:24 AM
Ok, what I'm getting about this is that it's a kind of crisis where everything you thought turns out to be wrong and the experience is intense enough to make people hallucinate guiding spirits and the like, but wikipedia has it that it's not being sure about the spirit itself, whether it's "real" or hallucination. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapel_perilous
That is a terrible entry on Chapel Perilous :D
Ah. Vestigal Wackypedia...gotcha. Thanks. :D
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on May 10, 2011, 08:53:03 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on May 10, 2011, 08:51:14 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD on May 10, 2011, 08:43:58 PM
Concept one: "I am a smart person who makes rational choices that betters my life."
Concept two: "I willingly partake in smoking, which has been proven to shorten and diminish the quality of my life" (if you're not a smoker, substitute a comparable self-destructive behavior).
Try to think about both thoughts simultaneously, without justifying, blaming, or otherwise ducking out of it.
Now, imagine that weird, uncomfortable feeling you get multiplied by about x1023. That's Chapel Perilous.
[Edit for exponential math geekery]
A mole of confusion?
Indeed: Because one's clarity gets spotty.
Quoted -because-well just because.
Good Thread.
I (am pretty sure I understand the concept) do not think I have ever come to this point.
Although I have had a few life long idea's proven wrong, bashed into the ground, I have just been able to shrug, learn from it and change my way of thinking with not too much of a problem.
So maybe I have, or not. I dunno :lulz:
The way they're talking, I think it would be more of a meltdown...kind of like Richard Gere spazzing out in The Mothman Prophecies or the guys on Wall Street jumping out of windows in '29. Not "Oh wow, Jesus really is fake...where are you going next Saturday?"
I've had what some people would call a Chapel Perilous moment.
It came at the bottom of a flight of stairs, and there was no spazzing out. Just a lot of blood and a lot of confusion.
Quote from: Payne on May 11, 2011, 10:19:33 PM
I've had what some people would call a Chapel Perilous moment.
It came at the bottom of a flight of stairs, and there was no spazzing out. Just a lot of blood and a lot of confusion.
What's awesome is that you have ended up being one of the best people I've had the pleasure of speaking to, as a result.
Sometimes, it takes going through the wringer to bring out the best in someone.
Very nice thread, sorry I'm only 8 years later to the party. :horrormirth:
Chapel Perilous is a few words is death and rebirth process (if you can find your way out), it's a metaphor, it happen in your thoughts only, just like Buddhism refers to the Bardo (a state of mind), in this case Bardo is well explained through the Tibetan book of the dead.
However Bardo refers to real physical death and Chapel Perilous not necessarily physical death.
Chapel Perilous: taking the red pill by mistake, and not having the incel discourse to guide/comfort you.
:rpger:
Quote from: The Johnny on April 27, 2019, 08:13:21 PM
Chapel Perilous: taking the red pill by mistake, and not having the incel discourse to guide/comfort you.
:rpger:
:lulz:
That's why I took BOTH pills. Fuck the man.
:lulz:
PILLS HERE
look what I found by Antero Alli
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHGbfipqNQw