Principia Discordia

after having not read the newspaper consistently for about 3 years

it is proving to be a treasure chest full of shit

today
i read about how technology advances seem to be affecting so many - or all - industries that obtain their income from broadcasting information

the whole music download situation
the fact that newspaper editorials are being found online
the alternative media streams of blogs
wikipedia
etc
etc
etc


which is making me wonder if information has any value at all

my hunch is no




what MAY have value tho
is the presentation of the information
- that which separates something 'entertaining'
from something which serves only to deliver a message



with the increasing presence of these alternative and instantly available forms of communication
do any of the old-standard forms of selling information stand a chance?

I think the H on the tap which runs hot water is information which is valuable.

define "value".

Quote from: Baron von HooplaI think the H on the tap which runs hot water is information which is valuable.

It is, unless "someone" likes swapping them around...

Quote from: eroticdefine "value".

uhh - in the money system

i guess it would mean that the information on a CD is equivalent to 20 dollars worth of food

Quote from: Cain

Quote from: Baron von HooplaI think the H on the tap which runs hot water is information which is valuable.

It is, unless "someone" likes swapping them around...

or the person who live there happens to have a name that start with an H and monograms shit in his house



anyway - its nowhere near as valuable as the first-hand experience

also - it may call into question the practicality of winding up in a situation where you have to put an H on a faucet

Monetary value acts like a shell game anyway, so I think you still need to define "value".

[Jeremy Bentham]Value is a measure of utility[/Jeremy Betham]

[LMNO]What the fuck does that mean?[/LMNO]

Utilitarians argue value (moral, admittedly) is related to the utility of the subject.  And thus Utilitarianism, the second bane of my existence, was born.  They still have Bentham's pickled body, you know.  200 years on.

Quote from: eroticMonetary value acts like a shell game anyway, so I think you still need to define "value".

interesting

could somebody call value 'something that will help you make it to the next meal'?

Such as, say, theft?

Quote from: CainUtilitarians argue value (moral, admittedly) is related to the utility of the subject.  And thus Utilitarianism, the second bane of my existence, was born.  They still have Bentham's pickled body, you know.  200 years on.

Sounds suspiciously Subjective...

Hell yeah.  You may know John Stuart Mill as another of their big thinkers, he had a much better PR company for his ideas.

Quote from: eroticSuch as, say, theft?

of course

as long as you can flip it for some produce

So, theft has value...

I love sophistry.

There used to be a great sophist forum I went to before coming here.  It was slow at times, but very interesting.  I found the link to this place from a forum they linked to, oddly enough.  Shame it vanished without a trace one day.

Quote from: eroticSo, theft has value...

I love sophistry.

no

theft doesnt have value

theft obtains value

can a action have a value?



LHX - looking up sophistry

Quote from: wikipediaThe derogatory modern usage of the word, suggesting an invalid argument composed of specious reasoning, is not necessarily representative of the beliefs of the original Sophists, except that they generally taught Rhetoric.

?

please

i thought we got past the 'morals' bullshit

theft directly from a person
or theft of the quality of life of future generations by 'earning' it

hell is hell

theft is earning

not preferred
but
it is earning

Come now, friend, are you still defining "value" as a thing rather than a concept?

And if value is a concept, why shouldn't an action have value?

Quote from: eroticCome now, friend, are you still defining "value" as a thing rather than a concept?

And if value is a concept, why shouldn't an action have value?

i would like to go on teh record as stating L-M-N-O asks the best questions


and also called me 'friend'


my answer - i guess a action could have a value
but
maybe in a different light than a 'thing' has a value

value seems to be an interesting concept

Quote from: LHXi would like to go on teh record as stating L-M-N-O asks the best questions

He's a smart mofo.

Quote from: Baron von Hoopla

Quote from: LHXi would like to go on teh record as stating L-M-N-O asks the best questions

He's a smart mofo.

lets not get carried away here

Quote from: LHX

Quote from: Baron von Hoopla

Quote from: LHXi would like to go on teh record as stating L-M-N-O asks the best questions

He's a smart mofo.

lets not get carried away here

I said mofo . . .

Seeing as I have some free time, let's go exploring, shall we?

Value seems to be divided into at least two categories:

1.   A tangible thing, coveted by others, that can be exchanged for other things.  In this sense, almost any noun can have value: a glass of water, a pencil, food, rocks (especially, the shiny, glittery ones), etc.

Take this up a meta level, and you can substitute markers for the thing of value, i.e. money.  When the concept of money outgrows the thing it represents, things tend to get fucked up, as seems to be the current case in most of the Western World.

2. An intangible thing, such as a learning experience (e.g. a ,Äúvaluable,Äù lesson), or a moral stance (e.g. family ,Äúvalues,Äù), etc.  In this sense, if a person can learn an/or grow/ and or be assisted in guidance through their existence, now every possible thing, possible and impossible, real and imagined, can have value, if there is a person who would find it valuable.

Once can use the latter value to obtain the former, or use the former to explore the latter.  What it seems to come down to in the end, however, is more game rules and subjective observations.  We collectively agree that money has value, and when we consider personally valuable is merely an aesthetic opinion.


But back to your original point:  Is information valuable?  Sometimes.  Some information (will it rain today?) is generally desired by a large amount of people.  However, it is currently fairly easy to get this information, so in order to gain tangible value ($$$) from intangible (weather forecast), one must use other methods to lure the subject in.  This is where your ,Äúdelivery system,Äù comes into effect.

On the other hand, things like the latest research and/or medical studies are not as desired, and are not as ubiquitous.  So, only a few select journals disseminate the information, and usually at a fairly steep price.  But this is all supply/demand economics, and is pretty boring.

The next thing to define, however is ,Äúinformation,Äù.  I,Äôve always enjoyed the mathematical definition, which is, roughly, ,Äúthe unpredictability of a signal.,Äù  Using that definition, the majority of blogs, newspapers, TV, pop music, etc has very little information.  And if you notice, the signals which contain a lot of information tend to be harder to find online/for free.

But then again, information can,Äôt be really called as such if a person doesn,Äôt understand/use it.  So it seems most of the truly important information out there isn,Äôt even recognized as such.

Toldja he was a mofo.

Uppa you nose wit a rubbah hose.

do you think the value of food varies from person to person?

Sure:  Some people would pay $100 for a well-cooked meal at a restaraunt.  other would think it's not worth it, and go to McDonalds.


Also, if you were allegic to peanuts, a Reese's wouldn't have much value, would it?

Some more thoughts I had while in the shower this morning...


some forms of "value" could be defined as "that which is useful in keeping you alive another day".  That could encompass both tangible things, as well as ideas or concepts.  In this way, stuff like money, or a house, could be grouped together with ideas like "don't lick the wall socket", and "drinking bleach is bad for you."

but other forms of value coul be considered "that which makes your experiential life more pleasant," and could include things that don't keep you alive, but do make you happy: music, booze, philosophy, Philip K Dick books, masturbation, etc.

It seems that in the broadest sense "information" can span both these ideas, in that some information will keep you alive, and some information will make your life better.

The issue of information not making your life better, or making it worse, is an interesting one, in that it seems initially to boil down to the optimist/pessimist paradigm, in that the person receiveing the information has a choice of how to use it in their lives, and their subjective reaction will shape how the information affects them.

Boy, I better get back to work & stop babbling.

Quote from: eroticSome more thoughts I had while in the shower this morning...


some forms of "value" could be defined as "that which is useful in keeping you alive another day".  That could encompass both tangible things, as well as ideas or concepts.  In this way, stuff like money, or a house, could be grouped together with ideas like "don't lick the wall socket", and "drinking bleach is bad for you."

but other forms of value coul be considered "that which makes your experiential life more pleasant," and could include things that don't keep you alive, but do make you happy: music, booze, philosophy, Philip K Dick books, masturbation, etc.

It seems that in the broadest sense "information" can span both these ideas, in that some information will keep you alive, and some information will make your life better.

The issue of information not making your life better, or making it worse, is an interesting one, in that it seems initially to boil down to the optimist/pessimist paradigm, in that the person receiveing the information has a choice of how to use it in their lives, and their subjective reaction will shape how the information affects them.

Boy, I better get back to work & stop babbling.

yeah - that 'better' idea seems to have some problems

i would be willing to wager tho
that there is a connection between information that 'can keep you alive'
and
the lengths to which man has made his experience on this planet more complicated than it may need to be

case in point -
electricity in wall sockets
and
bleach




back in the day
it could be said that you could learn all the valuable information you need to learn thru experience
without the potential of making life-ending 'errors'

That implies that if i walked into the woods naked, i could gain enough information to keep myself alive.

Which I doubt.  

Much information about your environment, and how to live in it, is collectively learned, and not from direct personal experience.

Quote from: eroticThat implies that if i walked into the woods naked, i could gain enough information to keep myself alive.

Which I doubt.  

Much information about your environment, and how to live in it, is collectively learned, and not from direct personal experience.

in the current situation

Quote from: LHX

Quote from: eroticThat implies that if i walked into the woods naked, i could gain enough information to keep myself alive.

Which I doubt.  

Much information about your environment, and how to live in it, is collectively learned, and not from direct personal experience.

in the current situation

Could you be a bit less concise in that last answer?

Quote from: erotic

Quote from: LHX

Quote from: eroticThat implies that if i walked into the woods naked, i could gain enough information to keep myself alive.

Which I doubt.  

Much information about your environment, and how to live in it, is collectively learned, and not from direct personal experience.

in the current situation

Could you be a bit less concise in that last answer?

currently?

Oh, now I get it.













LMNO
-Doesn't get it.

hahaaaa


what i meant was

what you said may be true for the current environment that we are living in - the one with seemingly harmless objects that you have no real way of knowing can cause harm



having become accustomed to this environment
yes
it seems like it would be a bit tough to survive if you got tossed into the woods / forest / desert / anywhere foreign

It was tough back then too.  The only way of knowing if a plant was poisonous was trial or error.  Without tools, humans are just hairless, angry monkeys.  They tend to not have long lifespans.  Sure life was simpler, but far more difficult because of a lack of extelligence which we lucky individuals have.

Quote
back in the day
it could be said that you could learn all the valuable information you need to learn thru experience
without the potential of making life-ending 'errors'

I contend that almost every environment is hazardous, and if one only learns through direct trial-and-error without employing hypotheses and assumptions, they will put themselves in danger.

Quote from: erotic

Quote
back in the day
it could be said that you could learn all the valuable information you need to learn thru experience
without the potential of making life-ending 'errors'

I contend that almost every environment is hazardous, and if one only learns through direct trial-and-error without employing hypotheses and assumptions, they will put themselves in danger.

my hunch is that the world may not be as (naturally) hazardous as we have been led to believe

also

the more i get in to these discussions and 'learn'
the more it appears that there is not too much to really 'know'


it really seems like things have become needlessly complicated to the point of absurdity

i try to stay away from emphasizing things
but
i dont know if i can emphasize that enough


(hence - discordianism?)


if a person really wants to apply this shit
you have to include the fact that we might not live in a hazardous place
or
we might be the architects of all things hazardous

Quote from: CainIt was tough back then too.  The only way of knowing if a plant was poisonous was trial or error.  Without tools, humans are just hairless, angry monkeys.  They tend to not have long lifespans.  Sure life was simpler, but far more difficult because of a lack of extelligence which we lucky individuals have.

i cant really agree with this anymore

fertile soil is fertile soil
irrigation is a matter of beating down a path
shelter is a matter of piling dirt


the 'human = hairless angry monkey with tools' theory seems less and less likely to me

Quote from: LHXif a person really wants to apply this shit
you have to include the fact that we might not live in a hazardous place
or
we might be the architects of all things hazardous

I refer you again to the proposition of going naked into the woods, sans the "hazardous architecture" of our own creations, and finding out that, yes, the so-called "natural world" is a pretty fucking dangerous place without tools or a priori knowledge.

Quote from: erotic

Quote from: LHXif a person really wants to apply this shit
you have to include the fact that we might not live in a hazardous place
or
we might be the architects of all things hazardous

I refer you again to the proposition of going naked into the woods, sans the "hazardous architecture" of our own creations, and finding out that, yes, the so-called "natural world" is a pretty fucking dangerous place without tools or a priori knowledge.

this is prolly the only area where we disagree


tho
i do agree that it would likely be a helluva mindfuck to take the average city dweller at 930 am and toss him in the woods by 1000



then again
i dont even know if 'the woods' is any more a 'natural' environment for a human than the city would be

i dont think i have seen many monkeys in the woods of north america

The Amazon then.


I give a naked human 10 minutes, tops, in the Amazon.




Or, perhaps, you could name a location that is "natural" for a naked human to be?

Or, barring that, name a "natural' environment that is "safe"

Quote from: eroticOr, perhaps, you could name a location that is "natural" for a naked human to be?

Between Enrico's well-oiled thighs?

This Is The Only Correct Answer.

Quote from: eroticThe Amazon then.


I give a naked human 10 minutes, tops, in the Amazon.




Or, perhaps, you could name a location that is "natural" for a naked human to be?

Or, barring that, name a "natural' environment that is "safe"

ohhhhhhhhhh sweet eris

the wordplay is hell




MAYBE the garden of eden is SAFE

Nah, there was a snake hidden in it.

MAYBE
the pre-snake
or
the pre-sinister-snake
garden of eden
was SAFE

Quote from: LHXMAYBE
the pre-snake
or
the pre-sinister-snake
garden of eden
was SAFE

Forgive my assumptions:

Quoteif a person really wants to apply this shit
you have to include the fact that we might not live in a hazardous place
or
we might be the architects of all things hazardous

Name a place that is not Hazardous.  I agree we have the tendencey to make a place more hazardous, but I can't think of a place that is not hazardous.

PS - the Garden of Eden is boring.

And a state of mind.

Both.

Quote from: erotic

PS - the Garden of Eden is boring.

whhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat??????

Quote from: erotic

And a state of mind.

not one that can be maintained without killing yourself in this society

Quote from: LHX

Quote from: erotic

PS - the Garden of Eden is boring.

whhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat??????

Really.  Think Tao, and "without sadness, happiness loses it's pleasure."  When all is Hodge, or Yin, or whatever, it no longer has it's opposite to define itself.

I just have to say that I think that despite all opinions to the contrary, information is teh suck.

Quote from: Irreverend Death to Poultry, KSCI just have to say that I think that despite all opinions to the contrary, information is teh suck.

I'm ECH, and I approve this message.

Quote from: erotic

Quote from: LHX

Quote from: erotic

PS - the Garden of Eden is boring.

whhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat??????

Really.  Think Tao, and "without sadness, happiness loses it's pleasure."  When all is Hodge, or Yin, or whatever, it no longer has it's opposite to define itself.

i am comfortable with this

besides

cant we say at this point that we have known the 'sadness'?


seriously

at what point can it be said that
'okay
we get the message'?


the shit is etched in stone
and
we got the INFORMATION to prove it

Tolerance builds up.

Too much sadness, and you forget you're sad, and you lose contact with "reality".

Too much happiness, you become a bliss-ninny, and lose contact with "reality".

Quote from: eroticTolerance builds up.

Too much sadness, and you forget you're sad, and you lose contact with "reality".

Too much happiness, you become a bliss-ninny, and lose contact with "reality".

maybe thats why we have the concept of 'responsibility'


where tolerance makes you 'forget'
responsibility kicks in to make you 'remember'

This just took a weird turn.

I'm not sure what you mean by "responsibility", or what that has to do with Information, Value, Hazardous Environments, Happiness, Sorrow, or the Garden of Eden.

Although I like how we've managed to include all of the above in this thread.

Anyway, what do you mean by responsibility, and it's realtion to happiness and sorrow?

recap -

your suggestion was that eden would be boring because there would be no happiness
as there would be no sadness to balance it off

my response was that we could keep the sadness
but
keep it stored in the INFORMATION - much like we have fossils of dinosaurs

to which you replied that our tolerance would build up so we wouldnt remember what the sadness was all about

and then i suggested that maybe this tolerance could be balanced by our responsibility to make sure that doesnt happen
- a responsibility to make sure that the 'lessons' of sadness (hell) wont be repeated
(or at least - perhaps - not the same way)



thats where i got the idea of responsibility and its relation to happiness and sorrow

Quote from: LHX

my response was that we could keep the sadness
but
keep it stored in the INFORMATION - much like we have fossils of dinosaurs

I think I missed this setp.

Because I would ahve said that reading about emotion or somehow absorbing information about emotion tends to be far different from actual experience of said emotion.

Much like reading "Zen and the art of Motorcycle Maintenence" will make you neither a bike mechanic, nor an enlightened soul.

Quote from: erotic

Quote from: LHX

my response was that we could keep the sadness
but
keep it stored in the INFORMATION - much like we have fossils of dinosaurs

I think I missed this setp.

Because I would ahve said that reading about emotion or somehow absorbing information about emotion tends to be far different from actual experience of said emotion.

Much like reading "Zen and the art of Motorcycle Maintenence" will make you neither a bike mechanic, nor an enlightened soul.

except that we - as in you and me -
have directly experienced the emotion

when i type sadness - you know the sadness

in that respect - the use of information seems to hold true




also -
does the emotion and tragedy necessarily NEED to be continually passed on?

my hunch is no


maybe it is possible to teach a kid sadness in one sitting
using nothing more than an apple
and a firm blow to the head

it could be like a tour


'tragedy - the interactive tour'
take them in
then
take them back out

end
of
story



i think the ultimate point i am trying to reach
(as always)
is that regardless of whether this necessitates that
it really seems like the suffering that goes on here is not necessary
and
we already have the tools needed to put it to rest

not eliminate it
but
put it away for a while

Do we, though?

Most of human suffering doesn't come from our direct environment, but from inside ourselves, due to frustrated desire, primate hierarchy power games, selfishness, and helplessness in the face of an uncaring universe.

I'm not sure we have the technology to do away with all those causes, and even if we did, I'm not sure that society in general would want to use said technology.

Quote from: erotic
Most of human suffering doesn't come from our direct environment, but from inside ourselves,

this thread is expanding to some nice places

i agree that the suffering comes from inside
BUT
i also acknowledge the fact that sources of interruption are external

you can be a peaceful person
but
your tolerance is only as strong as the situations you have encountered

and
in that respect
it does appear that we are reaching a climax of sorts
as everybodys tolerance is being tested more these days

the trials themselves may not be more difficult
but
they are becoming more constant and more frequent in succession

Quote from: lmnodue to frustrated desire, primate hierarchy power games, selfishness, and helplessness in the face of an uncaring universe.

i still propose the idea that these things are not as necessary as we are led to believe
and
may actually be the result of intent at some point in the past

Quote from: lmno
I'm not sure we have the technology to do away with all those causes, and even if we did, I'm not sure that society in general would want to use said technology.

i will propose another idea then -
maybe
we are dealing with more than one society right now
or
an emerging society within 'the' society

Quote from: LHX

Quote from: eroticdue to frustrated desire, primate hierarchy power games, selfishness, and helplessness in the face of an uncaring universe.

i still propose the idea that these things are not as necessary as we are led to believe
and
may actually be the result of intent at some point in the past

Ooh, I'm intrigued.  go there.  flesh out your idea.

Quote

Quote from: erotic
I'm not sure we have the technology to do away with all those causes, and even if we did, I'm not sure that society in general would want to use said technology.

i will propose another idea then -
maybe
we are dealing with more than one society right now
or
an emerging society within 'the' society

Well, When I say "society", i mean the dominant paradigm.  I agree there are always societies within societies.  Maybe there's a sea change coming, maybe not.

Quote from: erotic

Quote from: LHX
due to frustrated desire, primate hierarchy power games, selfishness, and helplessness in the face of an uncaring universe.


i still propose the idea that these things are not as necessary as we are led to believe
and
may actually be the result of intent at some point in the past

Ooh, I'm intrigued.  go there.  flesh out your idea.

okay - give me a second to get some back-door logic together

Quote from: erotic
 Maybe there's a sea change coming, maybe not.

this
my friend
seems to be the most definite thing that can be said

to further it tho
i propose this -

just by virtue of the fact that we can conceptualize 'a sea of change'
and that there is nothing but the lull of routine that can keep somebody on the sea of whatever-the-fuck-this-is
it might suggest that
once things become SO shitty in these parts
shitty to the point of many people would rather kill themselves than 'row the boat' in this direction any longer
or
'the boat' becomes so broken down and obviously sinking

the 'sea of change' is only a matter of time

the grass is purpler on the other side of the blence

Quotejust by virtue of the fact that we can conceptualize 'a sea of change'
and that there is nothing but the lull of routine that can keep somebody on the sea of whatever-the-fuck-this-is
it might suggest that
once things become SO shitty in these parts
shitty to the point of many people would rather kill themselves than 'row the boat' in this direction any longer
or
'the boat' becomes so broken down and obviously sinking

the 'sea of change' is only a matter of time

They thought the same thing in the 60's.  "Age of Aquarius" and all that.  Never underestimate the apathy and inertia of the masses.

Quotethe grass is purpler on the other side of the blence

::insert witty and clever non-sequitor rejoinder here::

Quote from: erotic

Quotejust by virtue of the fact that we can conceptualize 'a sea of change'
and that there is nothing but the lull of routine that can keep somebody on the sea of whatever-the-fuck-this-is
it might suggest that
once things become SO shitty in these parts
shitty to the point of many people would rather kill themselves than 'row the boat' in this direction any longer
or
'the boat' becomes so broken down and obviously sinking

the 'sea of change' is only a matter of time

They thought the same thing in the 60's.  "Age of Aquarius" and all that.  Never underestimate the apathy and inertia of the masses.

wouldnt you say that some alert people have learned from this?

can you name anybody here who wouldnt step on a hippys face then take his stash and steal his girl?

46 years is a long time in computer-years
(which is pretty damn close to light years)

Quote from: lmno

Quotethe grass is purpler on the other side of the blence

::insert witty and clever non-sequitor rejoinder here::

non se¬?qui¬?tur (nŏn sĕk'wĭ-tər, -tʊr')
n.
An inference or conclusion that does not follow from the premises or evidence.
A statement that does not follow logically from what preceded it.

Quote from: LHX
can you name anybody here who wouldnt step on a hippys face then take his stash and steal his girl?

Hey, I thought we were trying to minimize human suffering here...  :wink:

Quote
46 years is a long time in computer-years
(which is pretty damn close to light years)

[pedantic]

Light-years is a measurement of length.

[/pedantic]

Quote from: erotic

Quote
46 years is a long time in computer-years
(which is pretty damn close to light years)

[pedantic]

Light-years is a measurement of length.

[/pedantic]

wave-particle duality is a measurement of 'uhh-we dont know anything really'






pedantic
One entry found for pedantic.


Main Entry: pe¬?dan¬?tic
Pronunciation: pi-'dan-tik
Function: adjective
1 : of, relating to, or being a pedant
2 : narrowly, stodgily, and often ostentatiously learned
3 : UNIMAGINATIVE, PEDESTRIAN

pe¬?dan¬?tic  adj.
Characterized by a narrow, often ostentatious concern for book learning and formal rules: "a pedantic attention to details."

But really, a light year is the distance light travels in one year.  I know, relativity, but still...

Quote from: erotic

Quote from: LHX

Quote from: eroticdue to frustrated desire, primate hierarchy power games, selfishness, and helplessness in the face of an uncaring universe.

i still propose the idea that these things are not as necessary as we are led to believe
and
may actually be the result of intent at some point in the past

Ooh, I'm intrigued.  go there.  flesh out your idea.

i cant really make a case for this
all i can do is point out some connections

1
if you strip away the 'fairy tale' aura of those 'yacub' legends i put up in this forum
the story becomes one of intent as the cause of the current suffering
rather than some strange 'natural' progression

http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8486

http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8022

2
if you take a look at just how absurd the current situation on this planet seems to be
it suggests that it may have taken something equally as absurd to set it into motion

and i use the term 'absurd' purposely
not unjust
not unfair
not wrong
ABSURD
does not make sense

3
the fact that people have the ability to 'make choices' and 'tell lies' suggests that something really fucked up may have happened at some point early on


for my money
this maybe looks as legitimate as any

I'll respond to this tomorrow.

dammit

INFORMATION IS A BRAINWASHING TRAP!

STAY AWAY FROM IT!

JUST SAY NO TO INFO!

This is your brain on info...

Quote from: CainThis is your brain on info...

This is correct.

THE ONLY INFO YOU NEED IS TO KNOW THAT INFO IS BAD FOR YOU!

Quote from: Irreverend Death to Poultry, KSC

Quote from: CainThis is your brain on info...

This is correct.

THE ONLY INFO YOU NEED IS TO KNOW THAT INFO IS BAD FOR YOU!

who gave you this information?

I think the Yacub stories need to be addressed on their own, so I won,Äôt right now.

Quote2
if you take a look at just how absurd the current situation on this planet seems to be
it suggests that it may have taken something equally as absurd to set it into motion

and i use the term 'absurd' purposely
not unjust
not unfair
not wrong
ABSURD
does not make sense

It doesn,Äôt seem so absurd once you factor in the cognitive dissonance that seem to be built into our social system, most notably how we are all primates, with primate pack hierarchy status games seemingly instinctual, but our higher mentality rejects these impulses.  We become confused and conflicted, because we don,Äôt know why we have these impulses, i.e. we forget we are primates.  From the confusion and conflict arises the absurdity you see.

Quote3
the fact that people have the ability to 'make choices' and 'tell lies' suggests that something really fucked up may have happened at some point early on

I,Äôm still not sure how you got to that point.  Our larger brains gave us the ability to meta-think, that is, think about thinking, as well as hypothesize, & imagine.  And other animals make choices and lie all the time.  The difference is that we moralize about it.

Quote from: eroticI think the Yacub stories need to be addressed on their own, so I won,Äôt right now.

as i said
i only see this as a legend of INTENT
nothing more

Quote

It doesn,Äôt seem so absurd once you factor in the cognitive dissonance that seem to be built into our social system, most notably how we are all primates, with primate pack hierarchy status games seemingly instinctual, but our higher mentality rejects these impulses.  We become confused and conflicted, because we don,Äôt know why we have these impulses, i.e. we forget we are primates.  From the confusion and conflict arises the absurdity you see.

i do disagree
when i factor the intent into this
i see the confusion resulting from a time possibly in the collective memory of man
we get conflicted because we know that these impulses are self-destructive
the absurdity arises from the fact that we have a concept of 'heaven' but still fall victim to trickery and playing tricks

the body of man may have evolved from something that swung from trees
but
man never swung from trees

Quote
Our larger brains gave us the ability to meta-think, that is, think about thinking, as well as hypothesize, & imagine.  And other animals make choices and lie all the time.  The difference is that we moralize about it.

our larger brains are what they are
morals seem to be a by-product of trying to control the universe

there is no reason to say that animals 'lie' the same way men lie
eg
lying about perceptions of things that might happen
sending others out to do your bidding on false pretenses
saying the dog ate your homework

Hmmm.. It seems you've got quite a theory/theology going here.

I'm afraid its a bit too big for me to start deconstructing right now.  Sorry.

I'll try to take on bits of it here and there, when I get a chance.

Quote from: eroticHmmm.. It seems you've got quite a theory/theology going here.

I'm afraid its a bit too big for me to start deconstructing right now.  Sorry.

I'll try to take on bits of it here and there, when I get a chance.

hmm
maybe
i never really noticed that


just trying to make connections

also trying to see if i can muster up something that  rises above the level of bad science fiction

this was a good thread